VOWS: What should a new couple promise, discuss to beware of infidelity?

[merrmeade]

I actually run pre marriage courses in my parish. They are very interesting...but by the time I see couples..They have decided they are getting married......not much will make them not get married..but I recommend not just friends to them.....after reading out an excerpt.

 

You can usually hear a pin drop at this point. It might be worth doing a survey after a couple of years to see if it has made a difference at that point.

This is really awesome, kl, and fascinating. Yeah, you should get secondary contact information as backup, get their permission to contact them five years later for follow-up and then send everybody a small survey five years after the course. I'm sure you know exactly what questions you'd want them to answer.

[Spectre]

Does anyone walk away from the ceremony confused about the meaning of honor, cherish and "forsake all others"? A WS may make lots of excuses for straying but "I didn't know I wasn't supposed to cheat" usually isn't one of them...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

They obviously do walk away confused given the number of married people who cheat.

[GunslingerRoland]

I actually run pre marriage courses in my parish. They are very interesting...but by the time I see couples..They have decided they are getting married......not much will make them not get married..but I recommend not just friends to them.....after reading out an excerpt.

 

You can usually hear a pin drop at this point. It might be worth doing a survey after a couple of years to see if it has made a difference at that point.

 

I definitely took some stuff out of the pre marriage counseling I took at the Catholic church. I didn't consider it a waste of time, but no I wouldn't expect it to change anyone's mind about marriage.

[understand50]

We did not do any pre-marrage counseling, beside everyone telling us we were nuts and we would not last. (BTW, we both took as a challenge) Look, when you first fall in love and start a marriage, most are in love and can not consider cheating. As time goes on and "love" "lust" turns to the dull and hard fact of life and raising kids, minds can turn, and will, to "others". What needs to be discussed, between spouses, is that this will happen. You will not be 24/7 in love all the time. Feeling ebb and flow. Both my wife and I knew this and so when life got hard, we worked on re -finding our love as needed. So the one of the biggest thing in not cheating is to realize that who or what you may want to do, will in the end, cause you to lose, or damage, what you have. I had a mentor when I was a kid, (older man, I was 13 and he in his 80's. Would talk to me after my parents divorced) who told me that marriage are good and bad all at the same time, but it is up to both of you to try and find the good, when the bad can seem over whelming. He and his wife stayed together 60 plus years, and when she pasted on, he followed soon after.

 

If your son and STB DIL know this, and talk about this early, unless as they have, as the have a child now, they will be able to make it work. They are not the young, never have lived, couple some of were and are. I think they will do fine knowing something of the grooms mother.

 

My 2 cents.

Edited November 18, 2015 by understand50

[sandylee1]

I definitely took some stuff out of the pre marriage counseling I took at the Catholic church. I didn't consider it a waste of time, but no I wouldn't expect it to change anyone's mind about marriage.

 

It's not meant to change your mind about marriage..but it's meant for you to give it a lot of thought and discuss areas where there may be a fundamental difference of opinion.

 

What I find even better is the work I do with 15 to 19 year olds in youth groups in local parishes and schools. We discuss hopes and fears about marriage. What tops the list of fears every time is adultery.

 

So many fear they will be cheated on...... Some as a result of seeing this happen to their parents.

 

One girl asked me how many times I would forgive infidelity...... I was tempted to say none...but as forgiveness is very much part of Catholic life...I couldn't.

 

I hope that me sharing and educating them about the pain of infidelity on the BS at this young age....they'll take it very seriously. They realise the importance of marrying a compatible partner and not just thinking about the wedding day.....especially the girls.

[Mr. Lucky]

They obviously do walk away confused given the number of married people who cheat.

 

Disagree, no confusion involved. If a WS didn't go into infidelity clearly knowing it was wrong, then why the lying, deception, sneaking, clandestine meetings, manipulation, gaslighting, etc? If I'm confused what kind of milk my wife wants me to buy, I'm not going to hide the fact I chose 2% from her.

 

Even a serial cheater understands the meaning of fidelity and the commitment behind his/her wedding vows. And in that clear understanding lies the betrayal - they choose not to comply.

 

Cheaters don't lack understanding. It's other qualities they're missing...

 

Mr. Lucky

[sandylee1]

Disagree, no confusion involved. If a WS didn't go into infidelity clearly knowing it was wrong, then why the lying, deception, sneaking, clandestine meetings, manipulation, gaslighting, etc? If I'm confused what kind of milk my wife wants me to buy, I'm not going to hide the fact I chose 2% from her.

 

Even a serial cheater understands the meaning of fidelity and the commitment behind his/her wedding vows. And in that clear understanding lies the betrayal - they choose not to comply.

 

Cheaters don't lack understanding. It's other qualities they're missing...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Totally agree. 100%.

Of course they know it's not the thing to do.

 

You don't open secret email accounts, get burner phones, hide the APs number under another name and sneak around like a grounded school kid. ......if you're confused about the meaning of your vows....and if someone getting married doesn't comprehend the vows then they shouldn't be getting married.

[Spectre]

Disagree, no confusion involved. If a WS didn't go into infidelity clearly knowing it was wrong, then why the lying, deception, sneaking, clandestine meetings, manipulation, gaslighting, etc? If I'm confused what kind of milk my wife wants me to buy, I'm not going to hide the fact I chose 2% from her.

 

Even a serial cheater understands the meaning of fidelity and the commitment behind his/her wedding vows. And in that clear understanding lies the betrayal - they choose not to comply.

 

Cheaters don't lack understanding. It's other qualities they're missing...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Nope, they do lack understanding. Sorry if you don't get this, but what they don't understand is they shouldn't be behaving like they do. I'm not saying they don't know it is wrong, but by going through with it..it shows they just don't understand how to handle their feelings of wanting to cheat and how that isn't allowed in a marriage.

 

They understand they are doing wrong, they don't truly understand their vows then.

[dichotomy]

our church per-marriage counseling focused alot on sticking out through bad times and not divorcing. It did also include a 150 question compatibility test which we were told indicated we were highly compatible.

 

They did not discuss at all 1)Previous relationships or marriage issues 2) Sex in marriage or 3) Adultery or what cheating is and how to avoid it.

 

They missed alot that would have helped us.

[merrmeade]

Nope, they do lack understanding. Sorry if you don't get this, but what they don't understand is they shouldn't be behaving like they do. I'm not saying they don't know it is wrong, but by going through with it..it shows they just don't understand how to handle their feelings of wanting to cheat and how that isn't allowed in a marriage.

 

They understand they are doing wrong, they don't truly understand their vows then.

don't think understanding changes behavior, controls impulse or redirects desire. I think frank talk about what you do in what-if situations might possibly stop behavior later. Or not. But even if it doesn't stop it later, if behavioral expectations were discussed in specific detail, denial, excuses and gaslighting won't work.

 

Theoretically.

Edited November 19, 2015 by merrmeade

[Mr. Lucky]

Sorry if you don't get this, but what they don't understand is they shouldn't be behaving like they do.

 

I often observe people who don't understand they shouldn't be having loud personal conversations on their cellphones in quiet places like libraries and bookstores. Much to the chagrin of others, they make no attempt hide their behavior.

 

Cheaters obviously understand "they shouldn't be behaving like they do", hence the secrecy. They can plead many things, ignorance isn't one of them...

 

Mr. Lucky

[merrmeade]

My mother used to talk to me. Not directly, but she'd talk about situations, people she knew or even about relationships in general. The one I remember that made sense was when she said unmarried men and women should never go behind closed doors alone together. We lived in a small town, so the first reason she gave was that people will talk. But I also just got it when she explained desire and not being able to stop yourself once something got started until it was too late. Though her own experiences were so tame and innocent that I couldn't relate to them by the time I started dating, she still had a way of synthesizing and applying principles to universal experience. I'm pretty sure we even talked about unfaithfulness in marriage because I remember very well the thought and feeling of absolute conviction that went with it. I thought, "You just don't do it. You just don't. Not even the first little intimacy. You just stop before that happens."

[Spectre]

I often observe people who don't understand they shouldn't be having loud personal conversations on their cellphones in quiet places like libraries and bookstores. Much to the chagrin of others, they make no attempt hide their behavior.

 

Cheaters obviously understand "they shouldn't be behaving like they do", hence the secrecy. They can plead many things, ignorance isn't one of them...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Like I said, they get they are doing wrong, but it still shows a fundamental confusion about their vows. If they understood them they would be going "I know these are wrong and thus will not do them". They'd know cheating and secrecy wasn't what their partners signed up for. So they understand only from a selfish point of view, they get the meaning of the words BUT THEY DO NOT GET THE VOWS.

[beatcuff]

BUT THEY DO NOT GET THE VOWS.

 

they do AT THAT TIME. but years later: a stale M, boring life, a spouse that ignores and/or berates them...

 

OR they were never marriage material to begin with.

 

Love is a cornerstone to a good M but it is not the only piece. yet we hear all the time "but i love him". which ignores all the warning flags, flashing lights and flat out displays of...

 

OP, i have not read your back posts but it appears you are a BS. worse you failed to debrief your M and/or the events that lead up to the A. therefore you are ignoring the obvious and looking for a simple 'well if they put it in their vows there will not be an issue'. well its not surprising in our 'sound bite' era.

 

how about some real reflection and a honest discussion of what you could have done differently: then maybe these newly weds will not take the same path.

[MJJean]

Nope, they do lack understanding. Sorry if you don't get this, but what they don't understand is they shouldn't be behaving like they do. I'm not saying they don't know it is wrong, but by going through with it..it shows they just don't understand how to handle their feelings of wanting to cheat and how that isn't allowed in a marriage.

 

They understand they are doing wrong, they don't truly understand their vows then.

 

I'm a former WW. Multiple AP's over a period of 5 years. I absolutely understood the vows, that cheating while married is morally wrong, and I knew full well how to handle feelings of wanting to cheat. I simply didn't care.

 

Cheaters obviously understand "they shouldn't be behaving like they do", hence the secrecy. They can plead many things, ignorance isn't one of them...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I figure anyone claiming ignorance or lack of understanding is lying either to themselves or everybody else or both. It's fairly simple. The terms and conditions are spelled out plainly in the vows and in society's general understanding of marriage. Anyone who isn't capable of understanding how the whole marriage and fidelity thing works is likely incapable of tying their own shoes.

 

Believe me, cheaters understand what they're doing. They may dismiss it, they may bury or suppress it, but they do know.

 

My mother used to talk to me. Not directly, but she'd talk about situations, people she knew or even about relationships in general. The one I remember that made sense was when she said unmarried men and women should never go behind closed doors alone together. We lived in a small town, so the first reason she gave was that people will talk. But I also just got it when she explained desire and not being able to stop yourself once something got started until it was too late. Though her own experiences were so tame and innocent that I couldn't relate to them by the time I started dating, she still had a way of synthesizing and applying principles to universal experience. I'm pretty sure we even talked about unfaithfulness in marriage because I remember very well the thought and feeling of absolute conviction that went with it. I thought, "You just don't do it. You just don't. Not even the first little intimacy. You just stop before that happens."

 

Building on what your mother said, I have a piece of advice for the soon to be marrieds that I think is helpful. Avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

 

It's simple. Every so often, when dealing with the opposite sex, take a minute and run a systems check. Don't stay in or continue any situation or behavior that a reasonable person could think improper.

[merrmeade]

I'm a former WW. Multiple AP's over a period of 5 years. I absolutely understood the vows, that cheating while married is morally wrong, and I knew full well how to handle feelings of wanting to cheat. I simply didn't care.

 

 

 

I figure anyone claiming ignorance or lack of understanding is lying either to themselves or everybody else or both. It's fairly simple. The terms and conditions are spelled out plainly in the vows and in society's general understanding of marriage. Anyone who isn't capable of understanding how the whole marriage and fidelity thing works is likely incapable of tying their own shoes.

 

Believe me, cheaters understand what they're doing. They may dismiss it, they may bury or suppress it, but they do know.

 

 

 

Building on what your mother said, I have a piece of advice for the soon to be marrieds that I think is helpful. Avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

 

It's simple. Every so often, when dealing with the opposite sex, take a minute and run a systems check. Don't stay in or continue any situation or behavior that a reasonable person could think improper.

Exactly. With my WH and OW, a family member, it was exactly what my mother said - being alone behind closed doors for a long time lots of times. My mother had died already and my father gave them permission because he couldn't conceive of either of them crossing the line. My father apparently never got the talk I got. Bad move. I know your last paragraph is why my H hates himself for his cheating. He knew he was staying in and continuing situations and behaviors that reasonable people would think improper.

[Mr. Lucky]

Like I said, they get they are doing wrong, but it still shows a fundamental confusion about their vows. If they understood them they would be going "I know these are wrong and thus will not do them". They'd know cheating and secrecy wasn't what their partners signed up for. So they understand only from a selfish point of view, they get the meaning of the words BUT THEY DO NOT GET THE VOWS.

 

As an exBS, your position is insulting.

 

con·fu·sion

 

1. lack of understanding; uncertainty.

synonyms: uncertainty, incertitude, unsureness, doubt, ignorance;

 

2. the state of being bewildered or unclear in one's mind about something.

synonyms: bewilderment, bafflement, perplexity, puzzlement, mystification, befuddlement

 

A WS is not confused, uncertain or bewildered about their vows and I'd laugh in the face of my spouse if she tried to present that line of reasoning.

 

That's what makes it so hurtful. They know with crystal clear certainty that infidelity contravenes their promise and commitment to you - and they choose to do it anyway...

 

Mr. Lucky

[MJJean]

Exactly. With my WH and OW, a family member, it was exactly what my mother said - being alone behind closed doors for a long time lots of times. My mother had died already and my father gave them permission because he couldn't conceive of either of them crossing the line. My father apparently never got the talk I got. Bad move. I know your last paragraph is why my H hates himself for his cheating. He knew he was staying in and continuing situations and behaviors that reasonable people would think improper.

 

My DH is a bit...clueless. He's one of those guys who could easily be in over his head before he knew it simply because he just doesn't get most social cues. By avoiding the appearance of impropriety, he doesn't have to rely on cues to know that he's nearing a danger zone. Yes, he's really that clueless, lol.

[merrmeade]

As an exBS, your position is insulting.

 

con·fu·sion

 

1. lack of understanding; uncertainty.

synonyms: uncertainty, incertitude, unsureness, doubt, ignorance;

 

2. the state of being bewildered or unclear in one's mind about something.

synonyms: bewilderment, bafflement, perplexity, puzzlement, mystification, befuddlement

 

A WS is not confused, uncertain or bewildered about their vows and I'd laugh in the face of my spouse if she tried to present that line of reasoning.

 

That's what makes it so hurtful. They know with crystal clear certainty that infidelity contravenes their promise and commitment to you - and they choose to do it anyway...

 

Mr. Lucky

Well, I give Spectre the benefit of the doubt. I think "confusion" is one of those handy words that cover a lot of fuzzy implications. You suggest someone's confused or misunderstood to be polite, allow someone to save face, or even be facetious when suggesting there might be some 'confusion' about right and wrong, selfishness and self-indulgence, lying and honesty, flirting and intercourse, etc. I don't think Spectre's confused about the meaning of confusion.

[merrmeade]

My DH is a bit...clueless. He's one of those guys who could easily be in over his head before he knew it simply because he just doesn't get most social cues. By avoiding the appearance of impropriety, he doesn't have to rely on cues to know that he's nearing a danger zone. Yes, he's really that clueless, lol.

Yeah, my H used to let me think he was clueless about women coming onto him when I pointed it out. No, he knew who was clueless and just let me make it that much easier for him. Nowadays, I find it hilarious when he tries to feign innocence or cluelessness about pretty much anything. Hilarious because he actually convinces himself that he's innocent.

 

Not saying it's malevolent or conniving. It's sad really. He can never do 'naive.' He says that he didn't have anyone like my parents to tell him what was what, and to some extent this is true. But there are plenty of people in this world who grow up orphaned or in even more dysfunctional families and knowingly commit to a monogamous, committed relationship for life and are able to keep their things in their pants or keep things out of their pants. He said to me once that he "should've known better." Totally floored, insulted and outraged me. It was part of an email explanation. But now I realize it really was the best he could do and he had no idea how shocking it sounded.

 

Yeah, the more this thread goes on, the more I realize that my kids, none of them, need any help understanding what commitment is about and that they have none of their father's "confusion" about it. I also am more committed than ever that they not learn of his "confusion."

 

Another thing my mother used to say was that knowing about others' shame or wrongdoings (as in, others you know and look up to) has an insidious, corrosive influence on those who know. Therefore, unless there's a compelling reason to expose your dirty laundry, best keep it to yourself. Not sure I fully agree with this one but I do know it's a good explanation for not telling my sons the whole story about their father. Ever.

 

Besides, I just spent the day at one of my son's houses. They just had a second baby. He's working at home these days and she hasn't gone back to work. In the afternoon, their 6-year-old came home. What I saw was two deliriously happy adults enjoying each other's company, their parenting roles and channeling every aspect of their lives into making their family unit strong and healthy. No one talked to them before they got married. No one! So I think the other son and his wife-to-be will also be just fine. This is also their model.

[Noirek]

I had no illusions about Marriage. I knew marriage was hard, I knew I could be cheated on, I even knew if I had poor boundaries I could cheat myself. I never had a "honeymoon" stage. I knew that you have to keep working, especially as time passes and you have kids. I knew you had to choose your spouse everyday.

 

I understood it, I wanted it.

 

But thinking of how you will react to a situation and how you actually react are worlds apart. And the knowledge that things will get hard and go wrong don't mean anything to the actual reality of it.

 

I know losing a child suddenly comes with a pain that even those who feel being cheated on is the worst pain can't fathom. A family in Canada here recently lost their three daughters in a farming accident. Young girls. Gone. And I understand and know that is beyond any pain I have ever felt. But I also know it is beyond anyhing I can prepare myself for.

 

And we can do our best, and its not wrong to read the books and hear the lessons from others. And we can soak it all up, understand it and apply it. But that doesn't mean next year, or the next or ten years down the road we will be in the same place.

 

I knew pregnancies can go bad and be hard. But I was not prepared for being so sick I had to be hospitilized, nor was I read for getting this condition that caused me to rip my skin scratching. And worse had me being monitered because it could kill my child. I knew babies could add stress to a marriage with their constant needs but I was not prepared for walking the floor every night with a screaming child, being told my doctor's the constant spitting up was acid reflux, yelling at each other out of sheer exhaustion, and watching your child go from the 90 percentile to under the 3rd before a doctor finally saw a problem. And the guilt the whole time wishing you had pushed harder to get help. I knew having another child would add more difficulties but I wasn't prepared for what ppd actually does to your mind.

 

I knew cheating was not something you do, But I told myself what I needed to hear and did it anyways. And no, I was not prepared for it either.

 

I meant my vows on my wedding day. And nothing I could have read and said that day would have changed anything that happened. Besides maybe a Crystal ball for my own future.

 

The wedding day. A very special moment. Means very little in the grande scheme of life. It's just a day. And the vows, though precious, are only words.

 

What matters most in marriage, is every single day. Living each day together, for each other. Not buying into the narcissistic message of today about Doing what makes you happy all the time, but doing what makes each other happy.

 

If I could go back, and do over, I'd go back farther than the day I decided to cheat. I would go back to the beginning and I wouldn't change my words. I would change my everyday. And everyday, I would choose him.

[ladydesigner]

I had no illusions about Marriage. I knew marriage was hard, I knew I could be cheated on, I even knew if I had poor boundaries I could cheat myself. I never had a "honeymoon" stage. I knew that you have to keep working, especially as time passes and you have kids. I knew you had to choose your spouse everyday.

 

I understood it, I wanted it.

 

But thinking of how you will react to a situation and how you actually react are worlds apart. And the knowledge that things will get hard and go wrong don't mean anything to the actual reality of it.

 

I know losing a child suddenly comes with a pain that even those who feel being cheated on is the worst pain can't fathom. A family in Canada here recently lost their three daughters in a farming accident. Young girls. Gone. And I understand and know that is beyond any pain I have ever felt. But I also know it is beyond anyhing I can prepare myself for.

 

And we can do our best, and its not wrong to read the books and hear the lessons from others. And we can soak it all up, understand it and apply it. But that doesn't mean next year, or the next or ten years down the road we will be in the same place.

 

I knew pregnancies can go bad and be hard. But I was not prepared for being so sick I had to be hospitilized, nor was I read for getting this condition that caused me to rip my skin scratching. And worse had me being monitered because it could kill my child. I knew babies could add stress to a marriage with their constant needs but I was not prepared for walking the floor every night with a screaming child, being told my doctor's the constant spitting up was acid reflux, yelling at each other out of sheer exhaustion, and watching your child go from the 90 percentile to under the 3rd before a doctor finally saw a problem. And the guilt the whole time wishing you had pushed harder to get help. I knew having another child would add more difficulties but I wasn't prepared for what ppd actually does to your mind.

 

I knew cheating was not something you do, But I told myself what I needed to hear and did it anyways. And no, I was not prepared for it either.

 

I meant my vows on my wedding day. And nothing I could have read and said that day would have changed anything that happened. Besides maybe a Crystal ball for my own future.

 

The wedding day. A very special moment. Means very little in the grande scheme of life. It's just a day. And the vows, though precious, are only words.

 

What matters most in marriage, is every single day. Living each day together, for each other. Not buying into the narcissistic message of today about Doing what makes you happy all the time, but doing what makes each other happy.

 

If I could go back, and do over, I'd go back farther than the day I decided to cheat. I would go back to the beginning and I wouldn't change my words. I would change my everyday. And everyday, I would choose him.

 

Beautiful post!

 

I had a good laugh at the bolded, maybe people will spend less on their weddings knowing this

[merrmeade]

ten characters ten characters

Edited November 29, 2015 by merrmeade

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I meant my vows on my wedding day. And nothing I could have read and said that day would have changed anything that happened. Besides maybe a Crystal ball for my own future.

 

The wedding day. A very special moment. Means very little in the grande scheme of life. It's just a day. And the vows, though precious, are only words.

 

Vows are just words. A ring is just a piece of metal. But, newlyweds don't want to hear any of that. Most newlyweds go into a marriage thinking they are Teflon to such things. I sure did.

[Mr Blunt]

VOWS: What should a new couple promise, discuss to beware of infidelity?

 

Vows and discussions are not enough; the divorce courts prove that.

 

 

To combat infidelity in Marriage one would have to adopt some very strong convictions:

 

 

1 Marriage involves a LOT of sacrifice

 

2 Marriage means that you give up all RIGHTS that you think you deserve that tempt you in any way to not be totally loyal and committed to your spouse. The “modern women” activities that you mentioned are poison to preventive maintenance to betrayal.

 

 

3 Being committed and loyal in today’s America needs to have people be very serious about strong convictions. Yes that means that a strong belief in a God is very important. If a person is not going to be loyal to their God they are not going to be loyal to their spouse.

 

 

If married people ignore the above then there is almost a certainty that they will go for the excitement that the forbidden fruit (infidelity) will claim to give them. They will give you all kinds of reasons why they betrayed in an adulterous affair but that will not change the damage that will occur, which is often permanent and severe. Do not take my word for it, have your children talk to a marriage therapist and have the therapist relate some of the real truths about the permanent damage of betrayal.

 

 

 

People will either adopt strong convictions and stay by them or they will learn by extreme pain.

 

 

Marriage can help make life very rewarding but one must have strong convictions and stay with those convictions.