She didn't offer to split the bill. Should i disregard her?

[Redfisher]

Seems cheap to me but I'm old school and enjoy paying for the dates...

No knock against OP, Just different times I guess.

[hippychick3]

When I was dating (and I dated a LOT), I never encountered a guy who didn't insist on paying for the first date (and most of them insisted on paying for almost every date). The fact is, whether you agree with the philosophy of men paying for dates or not, most men will pay when they are interested in a woman. Most woman know this and would feel he wasn't very interested if he didn't offer to pay.

 

However, there are women who feel very differently than I do and maybe that is who the OP should date instead. It appears that his most recent date is not one of those women.

 

Honestly, if the guy expected me to pay for our first date I would never want to go out with him again. I wouldn't tell him that, and I wouldn't be rude about it. BUT, I will say that I would not have been one to "upgrade" our date. THAT is actually very rude.

 

With all that being said, once I'm in a relationship with someone, I am VERY generous and giving as well as appreciative.

[jakrbbt]

If that's the way to win this girl over, I'd just move on and let the other guys spend.

 

OP, are you perhaps anti-compete in this case? Many people find it distasteful to mix romance and competition. They want something more organic.

 

There's a way around the whole compete-for-love thing, and it doesn't involve checking to see if she pays. Instead, it involves friendship and humor...

[smackie9]

I disagree. Financial compatibility/ expectation of finances is crucial in relationships, especially marriage. If you go in blind, chances are there will be a failed relationship because of money.

[losangelena]

Oh my god, it was ONE DATE. ONE!

 

If she does the same thing over a course of say, four dates, then some reflection is in order, but it was one date.

[PrettyEmily77]

I invited a girl from POF to go out for a drink. The night before the date she said that we should get dinner instead and i agreed. She didn't offer to split the bill at the end even though it was her idea to go out for a meal and we played a couple of games of air hockey afterwards and i even ended up paying for that as well.

 

 

Now she wants us to play badminton (she probably expects me to pay for that too lol) but now i'm unsure if I should bother so i'm thinking of just inviting her to my place "to watch a movie" and if she doesn't go then just disregarding her. It's unlikely that she would go because she seems quite conservative. If it wasn't for her acting like a princess then i would really want to see her again. I'm usually a bit shy when i first meet someone but with her i felt no awkwardness at all and we got on really well and had a laugh so i don't know if i'm overreacting?

 

You should probs let her go on the basis that you don't actually like her all that much (see bolded), not because she's not offered to pay half of the bill.

 

Haven't read the whole thread though, so apologies if that has been suggested before.

[serial muse]

 

I'm thinking, yes, exactly. Except we don't actually need to think of it as dumping her because she didn't offer to pay... just think of it as choosing to be with an enlightened, progressive woman, and not an entitled princess. And make no apologies. How she conducts herself when the check comes tells you which one she is, and if it costs you an extra $25-50 make that determination... it's a small price to pay for such valuable information.

 

Hm. I understand that guys don't want to be taken advantage of, and that it's frustrating to have things assumed, and that it can be expensive to take woman after woman out on first dates, and that the "who pays" thing is a source of a great deal of confusion and frustration in a progressing world. I'm a woman and an "offer to pay" person myself. My now-husband and I traded off on dinner bills every other date and it was fine.

 

That said...it doesn't seem fair to label someone a princess based solely on whether or not she offered to pay on the first date. Aren't we all aware, at this point, that this is a highly confusing issue and there are a lot of conflicting opinions out there about proper etiquette? Shouldn't that even go without saying? But instead, the number of opinions about what is appropriate are matched only by the intensity with which people believe there's only one right answer.

 

IMO, the potential mixed-messages that can be involved in this craziness argue strongly for a certain amount of leniency and patience with a new date until you know where that person is really coming from. You don't have to agree with their stance, but you could at least give them a chance to talk about it, if it's really a dealbreaker and you otherwise really like them.

 

So. How do we know why she didn't offer to pay?

 

Sure, you can just say "because she didn't think she should". But in a world where a woman pulling out her wallet is often taken as a sign of disinterest, it seems like she should at least get the benefit of the doubt here, provided there weren't any other red flags. I haven't seen the OP say anything else that this woman did to indicate an entitled attitude.

 

OP: Sure, it's possible that she just wanted a free dinner. But it's also possible that she thought the date was going really well, that she liked you and wanted to spend more time with you. I wasn't there, and nor was anybody else on this thread, so you're going to have to use your own judgment about her real motives. Why, then, are you so ready to assume the worst of her? Do you have good reasons that you haven't told us here?

 

It's not a question you have to answer here, by any means. But maybe ask yourself, all the same.

Edited November 13, 2015 by serial muse

[losangelena]

Hm. I understand that guys don't want to be taken advantage of, and that it's frustrating to have things assumed, and that it can be expensive to take woman after woman out on first dates, and that the "who pays" thing is a source of a great deal of confusion and frustration in a progressing world. I'm a woman and an "offer to pay" person myself. My now-husband and I traded off on dinner bills every other date and it was fine.

 

That said...it doesn't seem fair to label someone a princess based solely on whether or not she offered to pay on the first date. Aren't we all aware, at this point, that this is a highly confusing issue and there are a lot of conflicting opinions out there about proper etiquette? Shouldn't that even go without saying? But instead, the number of opinions about what is appropriate are matched only by the intensity with which people believe there's only one right answer.

 

IMO, the potential mixed-messages that can be involved in this craziness argue strongly for a certain amount of leniency and patience with a new date until you know where that person is really coming from. You don't have to agree with their stance, but you could at least give them a chance to talk about it, if it's really a dealbreaker and you otherwise really like them.

 

So. How do we know why she didn't offer to pay?

 

Sure, you can just say "because she didn't think she should". But in a world where a woman pulling out her wallet is often taken as a sign of disinterest, it seems like she should at least get the benefit of the doubt here, provided there weren't any other red flags. I haven't seen the OP say anything else that this woman did to indicate an entitled attitude.

 

OP: Sure, it's possible that she just wanted a free dinner. But it's also possible that she thought the date was going really well, that she liked you and wanted to spend more time with you. I wasn't there, and nor was anybody else on this thread, so you're going to have to use your own judgment about her real motives. Why, then, are you so ready to assume the worst of her? Do you have good reasons that you haven't told us here?

 

It's not a question you have to answer here, by any means. But maybe ask yourself, all the same.

 

I love this answer and I totally agree.

 

I realize the sticking point in this situation is that she chose to upgrade the date and then didn't offer to pay, that I think is a slightly different issue than not offering to pay in general.

 

However, I too am a bit concerned that someone's first-date paying habits are a corollary to their character, and to that I say, that's not always the case. A woman who expects a man to pay on a first date may be no more entitled than a man who offers to pay on the first date is generous. They may both simply be doing what they think is the "right way."

 

No. Character and intention come out over time as you get to know someone.

[Shining One]

However, I too am a bit concerned that someone's first-date paying habits are a corollary to their character, and to that I say, that's not always the case. A woman who expects a man to pay on a first date may be no more entitled than a man who offers to pay on the first date is generous. They may both simply be doing what they think is the "right way."

 

No. Character and intention come out over time as you get to know someone.

Unfortunately, people read a lot into interactions on the first date. Here, we have a man labelling a woman as an entitled princess for not offering to contribute on the first date. There are many women who will judge a man as cheap and unworthy of a second date if he accepts their disingenuous offer to contribute to the first date costs. People should be a bit more patient before coming to these conclusions.

[FeelingFireworks]

You say she's acting like a princess...was her general attitude an entitled one or are you purely taking issue that you paid for the first date? You did say after all you got on well and want to see her again.

 

If I'm being taken on a date, I personally expect a man to organise/pay for the first date. In fact, the first few dates - at a minimum. It's a qualifier amongst other qualities I seek.

 

I've dated a bill-splitters in the past and they've ALWAYS turned out to be half-invested and/or a penny pincher in some way or form. These are the men who will buy you wilted flowers because they're deeply discounted and expect you to be elated, expect you to travel to them (because they're lazy or don't want to pay transport/fuel), and try to get you into a house date early (code for quick sex)...you know, because they spent exactly $37.24 on you and want to see a return their cash.

 

(And from what you've written, you ALREADY expect a house date after date 1. If I were her and you said that to me, I'd say deuces).

 

If money's an issue with you, then either save up until you can date properly or take control of the date by noting her preferences and organising the activities yourself so that they fall within your budget. That's the savvy way. She'll value the thoughtfulness/quality of your efforts, will see you can take charge and probably won't be aware/care about the actual monetary value.

 

If none of those fly with you, then be more discriminating with your selections and find a woman who's happy to split things down the middle. You might find a happy union with such a lady. But in mine/my friends' experiences, we tend to do that when it's a man we're platonic with or very lukewarm romantically about so we dont feel obligated - not even to hug him. Just my view.

[salparadise]

Hm. I understand that guys don't want to be taken advantage of, and that it's frustrating to have things assumed, and that it can be expensive to take woman after woman out on first dates, and that the "who pays" thing is a source of a great deal of confusion and frustration in a progressing world. I'm a woman and an "offer to pay" person myself. My now-husband and I traded off on dinner bills every other date and it was fine.

 

That said...it doesn't seem fair to label someone a princess based solely on whether or not she offered to pay on the first date. Aren't we all aware, at this point, that this is a highly confusing issue and there are a lot of conflicting opinions out there about proper etiquette? Shouldn't that even go without saying? But instead, the number of opinions about what is appropriate are matched only by the intensity with which people believe there's only one right answer.

 

IMO, the potential mixed-messages that can be involved in this craziness argue strongly for a certain amount of leniency and patience with a new date until you know where that person is really coming from. You don't have to agree with their stance, but you could at least give them a chance to talk about it, if it's really a dealbreaker and you otherwise really like them.

 

So. How do we know why she didn't offer to pay?

 

Sure, you can just say "because she didn't think she should". But in a world where a woman pulling out her wallet is often taken as a sign of disinterest, it seems like she should at least get the benefit of the doubt here, provided there weren't any other red flags. I haven't seen the OP say anything else that this woman did to indicate an entitled attitude.

 

OP: Sure, it's possible that she just wanted a free dinner. But it's also possible that she thought the date was going really well, that she liked you and wanted to spend more time with you. I wasn't there, and nor was anybody else on this thread, so you're going to have to use your own judgment about her real motives. Why, then, are you so ready to assume the worst of her? Do you have good reasons that you haven't told us here?

 

It's not a question you have to answer here, by any means. But maybe ask yourself, all the same.

 

serial muse, you have a well reasoned and moderate approach and I admire that for sure. But in this situation, she escalated it from drinks to dinner, and then didn't even offer to split. Most people see that as a red flag at least.

 

I don't know where the notion comes from that offering to split is a sign of disinterest- sure I've heard how it's rationalized but I don't buy it. I don't see it as rational, and I certainly don't think it's based in any kind of established protocol.

 

I'll try to keep this concise- I dated a woman previously (2014) that NEVER offered to pay for anything. She even got to the point where when we were having dinner at her house she'd text me to stop at the store and give me a shopping list including the entree and wine, etc. She just saw it as, and pardon my french... I was getting the precious pussy, so she was entitled to pretty much anything and everything she could extract without embarrassing herself too badly. One day her sister and her husband were in town and asked us to go out to eat with them. When we went to the register with the check she took it and said something like "you got the last one, so I'll get this one." I was floored! I should've said, "yea, the last one and the last twenty before that." She did that because her sister and her husband were watching and she didn't want to appear to be an entitled princess to them. Anyway, there was a LOT more wrong with that relationship than who was picking up the check... and that's my point. Entitled in one respect probably means entitled through and through.

 

After a full year of abstinence and patently waiting I finally found someone I really click with... not just sexually but in multiple ways. But having been trained well to be a "nice guy" I fully expected to pay check for our first date, of course. When I pulled out my card she pulled her's out too. I said, it's ok I've got it, and she replied, I prefer to split it if you don't mind. Same thing on the second date. After that we started alternating. But the difference overall is that she is generous and reciprocal in all aspects of the relationship. We took a trip to the beach only a month into it and I'm telling you... there is nothing quite like the feeling of a fully reciprocal relationship and feeling the appreciation just for who you are vs. some kind of quid pro quo arrangement.

 

Her behavior when the check comes is indicative of values and what you can expect overall. (I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, and I realize that some men need to be needed or something like that.) It's really not the money- it's the values and attitude behind the expectation that makes the difference. I've experienced complete opposites, back to back. I'm sure my diploma is in the mail.

 

If OP wants to give her another chance, of course he can do so. But my bet is that she sees this as the guy always pays... after all, he gets to enjoy the pleasure of her company.

Edited November 13, 2015 by salparadise

[losangelena]

I don't know where the notion comes from that offering to split is a sign of disinterest- sure I've heard how it's rationalized but I don't buy it. I don't see it as rational, and I certainly don't think it's based in any kind of established protocol.

 

Err, well, I've done this, too, so ... despite its seeming irrationality, it does happen.

[losangelena]

To follow that up with a more well-rounded answer—for me, honestly it changes from guy to guy and date to date.

 

I've split the bill with guys I knew I'd never see again because I didn't want him having to pony up for both of us; yet I've also split bills with guys I've liked a lot. Sometimes that's been appreciated, but I've also been on the other side of that, where a guy I'm out with did not appreciate me paying at all—to them it was insulting that I somehow felt they couldn't cover the cost. Damned if do, damned if don't, right?

 

And like serial muse, I've let guys I like pay for the whole bill, especially if they seemed to have had a good time and I'm confident we'll see each other again/more. At a certain point, all of that evens out.

 

Everyone has their preferences, everyone comes to the date with a certain amount of expectations. I think the question of "who pays" is best answered on a case-by-case basis that depends on what was done, who invited whom, and how the experience went.

[katiegrl]

Maybe I'm missing something, but was she holding a gun to his head when she *suggested* dinner instead of drinks?

 

If he had such an issue with paying, why did he AGREE to dinner in the first place? Did it not occur to him that he might be expected to pay....since HE was the one to ask her out?

 

He asked her out, all she did was suggest dinner ....he willingly agreed ...., and now he's in a twist because she didn't offer to pay.

 

There is something wrong with this picture. He did not have to agree, he could have declined and stuck with his original plan to have drinks.

 

NOTHING wrong with that, in fact IMO having drinks and maybe a couple of apps is more appropriate for a first date anyway.

 

OP, instead of blaming HER for not offering to pay, blame YOURSELF for not having more of a backbone and sticking with your original plan.

 

If she started **insisting** on dinner or got her panties in a twist because you wanted to stick to original plan .... then THAT is a red flag and could indicate she's a princess.. At which point, you might have simply cancelled the date altogether ... and nexted her.

[Heatherknows]

She's a nice girl and we had a fun time but I wouldn't get ahead of myself and say she's right for me yet as I hardly know her and as I met her on POF i'm sure that i'd have a lot of competition for her anyway.

 

 

 

Then pay the bill with a smile on your face and next time bring flowers.

 

(kids today.)

[Heatherknows]

Maybe I'm missing something, but was she holding a gun to his head when she *suggested* dinner instead of drinks?

 

 

I'm guessing it wasn't a five start restaurant either and I'm sure she didn't order the Cristal.

 

My good advice to OP: Don't see this girl again. Find one who offers to pay because that is what you want.

[Rydo]

Everyone seems obsessed with calling the op cheap etc. He didn't say he wasn't willing to pay just that he didn't like the fact she didn't offer to put anything towards it.

That would put me off someone too and I would consider not seeing them again and I have never not paid for the first date.

[mrldii]

Everyone seems obsessed with calling the op cheap etc. He didn't say he wasn't willing to pay just that he didn't like the fact she didn't offer to put anything towards it.

That would put me off someone too and I would consider not seeing them again and I have never not paid for the first date.

 

 

For the record, I (who am a part of "everyone", dammit) did not call the OP "cheap etc" as that would have been presumptuous based on what's in evidence. Almost as presumptuous as calling someone "a princess" based on what's in evidence.

 

 

[anduina]

Why not respond with expectations?

 

'Sure, if you're paying, badminton would be fun. '

 

If her back goes up, then opt out.

[Rydo]

For the record, I (who am a part of "everyone", dammit) did not call the OP "cheap etc" as that would have been presumptuous based on what's in evidence. Almost as presumptuous as calling someone "a princess" based on what's in evidence.

 

 

 

I'll be honest I couldn't be bothered reading every comment.

 

I wouldn't call her a princess, but I also wouldn't be 100% up for another date unless she was very hot.

[mrldii]

I'll be honest I couldn't be bothered reading every comment.

 

I wouldn't call her a princess, but I also wouldn't be 100% up for another date unless she was very hot.

 

 

Well, then...thank you for taking the time to read mine.

 

Quite the quandary you - and perhaps OP - have put yourself/ves in, then. On one hand, you won't tolerate "princess"-ish behavior, but on the other hand, you practically beg for it ("...unless she was very hot"), as "very hot" women typically have many men vying for their attention, leading to "princess"-ish behavior.

 

 

Go figure.

[katiegrl]

Everyone seems obsessed with calling the op cheap etc. He didn't say he wasn't willing to pay just that he didn't like the fact she didn't offer to put anything towards it.

That would put me off someone too and I would consider not seeing them again and I have never not paid for the first date.

 

You might be surprised to know that there are many men who would be *insulted* if a woman offered to pay on that first date. I know my fiance would have been.

 

Such men enjoy being the provider .... they actually enjoying treating, it is their pleasure to treat! On those first few dates.

 

I get that you and some other men don't feel that way, which is fine.

 

But with some men requiring that she pay (or offering to pay) .... and some men feeling insulted if she offered to pay .... I don't get your judgmental and negative attitide when a woman doesn't conform to what YOU personally require ... lest you won't ask her out again!

 

Why not give her the benefit of the doubt (at least) that she DID NOT know that that is what YOU required .... and get to know her a bit ..... before prematurely pulling the plug.

 

Assuming you actually LIKE her ...and not looking for a convenient excuse (in your own mind) to not ask her out again.

[losangelena]

I'll be honest I couldn't be bothered reading every comment.

 

I wouldn't call her a princess, but I also wouldn't be 100% up for another date unless she was very hot.

 

HAHAHA, omg.

 

Yeah, a woman needs to act correct unless she's hot, then everything can slide.

 

Hrm ... makes you wonder how some women end up with such entitled attitudes, doesn't it?

[losangelena]

You might be surprised to know that there are many men who would be *insulted* if a woman offered to pay on that first date. I know my fiance would have been.

 

Such men enjoy being the provider .... they actually enjoying treating, it is their pleasure to treat! On those first few dates.

 

I get that you and some other men don't feel that way, which is fine.

 

But with some men requiring that she pay (or offering to pay) .... and some men feeling insulted if she offered to pay .... I don't get your judgmental and negative attitide when a woman doesn't conform to what YOU personally require ... lest you won't ask her out again!

 

Why not give her the benefit of the doubt (at least) that she DID NOT know that that is what YOU required .... and get to know her a bit ..... before prematurely pulling the plug.

 

Assuming you actually LIKE her ...and not looking for a convenient excuse (in your own mind) to not ask her out again.

 

No Kates, you missed the point—if she's HOT, then she can get away with doing ANYTHING!!

[katiegrl]

No Kates, you missed the point—if she's HOT, then she can get away with doing ANYTHING!!

 

LOL ..yeah I saw that after I posted.

 

No wonder women are so damn confused.

 

Men's *rules* keep changing depending on how *hot* she is.

 

Kinda pathetic but par for the course.