CalvinM Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 We were talking about the tar sands here in Alberta (Canada), and I made the mistake of bringing up the previous prime minister Stephen Harper. I didn't mind him. I certainly grew tired of his policies, but she hated him, especially his apathy of the First Nations/indigenous people. I should've left it alone, but I made the comment that they bring a lot of the issues on themselves. Issues I saw first hand when I lived in Edmonton. She on the other hand seems to think nothing but sunshine and lollipops of them. Again, I should've just kept my mouth shut, but I made the final point that if one dog bites me, I don't blame all dogs. I've had knives pulled on me by First Nations youth living in downtown Edmonton in the middle of the afternoon, and frankly don't have anything good to say about the culture, but I maintain that these are likely isolated events that don't reflect the vast majority. She replied back with "We clearly disagree. You have your impressions and I have mine. I don't want to discuss this anymore." I feel like she's overreacting. I took a soft approach on the subject, but it's clearly something she feels strongly about. We've been together for just over two months. Never had so much as a disagreement. She's very gentle natured and even tempered, but has been sick lately, so perhaps she's tired. I don't feel like I need to apologize, since I was hust giving honest accounts of my experiences and held back quite a lot/softened my words because I do care about her. Did she overreact, or is this a case where I need to tread more lightly in the future?
ExpatInItaly Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Fellow Canuck here! Actually, I think you're the one who's overreacting (over-thinking might be the better word). I don't think this is a huge deal, but you're stressing about it. She doesn't want to discuss it anymore - leave it at that. Not all couples have the same political views. My boyfriend and I have quite different perspectives on politics, and we know we don't agree with each other on certain points. They are not deal-breakers for us and we don't let political discussions become too heated. It all depends on how important this issue is for the two of you. It sounds like it's more important to you than her, when it comes to harmony in the relationship. 3
Author CalvinM Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 My opinion is less important to me than hers is to her, given that she's worked with First Nations children as a teacher up north. I merely lived amongst them in a city of a million or so people. She's lived on a reserve and I'm sure has seen all sorts of good and bad things. I'd fully admit that she has a much larger grasp of things. But the behaviours and interactions I've witnessed in Edmonton, as well as living with a native roommate have left a very bad impression on me. That was merely my point. Clearly she disagrees. I apologized and told her it wasn't my intention to upset her. Not sure what can be done beyond that. 1
ExpatInItaly Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 My opinion is less important to me than hers is to her, given that she's worked with First Nations children as a teacher up north. I merely lived amongst them in a city of a million or so people. She's lived on a reserve and I'm sure has seen all sorts of good and bad things. I'd fully admit that she has a much larger grasp of things. But the behaviours and interactions I've witnessed in Edmonton, as well as living with a native roommate have left a very bad impression on me. That was merely my point. Clearly she disagrees. I apologized and told her it wasn't my intention to upset her. Not sure what can be done beyond that. Nothing, really. Just leave it and don't make a further issue out of it; I doubt she will either. If you said something that really offended her, apologizing is all you could do which you've done.
PegNosePete Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 She replied back with "We clearly disagree. You have your impressions and I have mine. I don't want to discuss this anymore." Agreeing to disagree is the responsible and mature thing to do. There's no need to apologise for having a different opinion; only if it's method of delivery was disrespectful. 3
KatZee Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Would this be the US equivalent of mixing conservatives and liberals? If that's the case, just close your mouth. Neither side understands the other at all. I'm a conservative libertarian and I couldn't even fathom dating a liberal. I guess it's good to know these things early on though. It's a good indicator whether or not you're long-term compatible.
Author CalvinM Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 Would this be the US equivalent of mixing conservatives and liberals? If that's the case, just close your mouth. Neither side understands the other at all. I'm a conservative libertarian and I couldn't even fathom dating a liberal. I guess it's good to know these things early on though. It's a good indicator whether or not you're long-term compatible. Not really. She's not Liberal and I'm not Conservative. I'm able to see flaws in all of the parties, but because of my strong ties to environmental issues and women's rights, I align as far to the left as I can (usually either NDP or Green), but I also understand that either government winning a majority would likely bankrupt this country. I'm not overly concerned about natives rights. It isn't something that affects or even interests me any more than our budget for fighter jets, but I realize that they are both sensitive issues to some Canadians and if I open my mouth on either subject, I should at the very least be able to discuss the issues. She messaged me this morning saying she wasn't upset, but that she'd rather we have "those type of conversations" in person so that neither of us feels misinterpreted or misunderstood. 1
Els Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 I don't think she's overreacting at all, and I don't think you did anything wrong either, so no need to apologize. All she's saying is that she doesn't see the point in continuing to discuss things, she probably just doesn't want it to escalate and would prefer to agree to disagree. My guy and I are both quite strongly opinionated, and while we agree on some things, we disagree on others. IMO it's perfectly healthy to disagree and debate sometimes as long as both parties ultimately agree to disagree (which is what she did). 3
xcupid Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Leave it be or you're going to open up a can of worms. You know where she stands on the issue and you know where to tread lightly in the future. 3
Snakechammah Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Your girlfriend is a keeper. I have no idea about Canadian politics but seeing that she has worked as a teacher for First Nation children and defending them just shows what a beautiful heart she has. Treasure her. There are not many girls with beauty, brains AND a kind heart! 1
Ami1uwant Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 The one thing you did.....you made broad generalities which can be perceived as racist. As you said with her working closely with families she probably knows more than you. A parallel in the states is toward blacks. People here assume there will be issues (being robbed or killed)because someone is black. Racism is now more subtle where people have no problem working along side but they won't socialize with them. 3
EricaH329 Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 How does this: "We clearly disagree. You have your impressions and I have mine. I don't want to discuss this anymore." Equate to this: I feel like she's overreacting. ?? She ended a discussion the two of you were having by politely agreeing to disagree. So where is this 'overreaction' coming from? My advice to you is to not look so much into things. No two people are ever going to have the same exact opinions on things all the time. The mature, and proper, way to handle difference of opinions is to do exactly what she did. 1
kismetkismet Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 i'd be careful here.. If she is passionate about human rights and cultural reparations and equality you could be walking on thin ice. I would 'agree to disagree' and not discuss these things again. I'm a Canadian with similar view points to your girlfriend, am also not a normally conflict oriented person, but I would never date someone with your view points. I have broken up with people before over issues like that because i think that it reflects a larger part of how that person sees the world and the people around them. If you want to keep her I suggest not ever discussing things like that again if you can avoid it. Particularly if it's something she is so passionate about that she has worked within that culture.. Also, how do you think she 'over reacted' SHE is the one that tried to diffuse the situation and end the conflict.. did you expect her to change her mind? 2
dreamingoftigers Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 We were talking about the tar sands here in Alberta (Canada), and I made the mistake of bringing up the previous prime minister Stephen Harper. I didn't mind him. I certainly grew tired of his policies, but she hated him, especially his apathy of the First Nations/indigenous people. I should've left it alone, but I made the comment that they bring a lot of the issues on themselves. Issues I saw first hand when I lived in Edmonton. She on the other hand seems to think nothing but sunshine and lollipops of them. Again, I should've just kept my mouth shut, but I made the final point that if one dog bites me, I don't blame all dogs. I've had knives pulled on me by First Nations youth living in downtown Edmonton in the middle of the afternoon, and frankly don't have anything good to say about the culture, but I maintain that these are likely isolated events that don't reflect the vast majority. She replied back with "We clearly disagree. You have your impressions and I have mine. I don't want to discuss this anymore." I feel like she's overreacting. I took a soft approach on the subject, but it's clearly something she feels strongly about. We've been together for just over two months. Never had so much as a disagreement. She's very gentle natured and even tempered, but has been sick lately, so perhaps she's tired. I don't feel like I need to apologize, since I was hust giving honest accounts of my experiences and held back quite a lot/softened my words because I do care about her. Did she overreact, or is this a case where I need to tread more lightly in the future? Oh boy, talk about a loaded conversation. A few things: 1. You are really cutting a big swath of people when you mention "First Nations." I have been all over the country multiple times, including reserves and there's a broad difference as to where you go and the attitude you are greeted with. Some groups don't have much to do with white people. I encountered this with my very blonde husband (I am darker in complexion, we both have native heritage but it shows up more in me). Overall, I have been given more hospitality in areas with First Nations people BY First Nations people. I traveled with my husband off and on (more on) for eight years. In all of my time traveling I only had ONE problem with Native Youth. In Lethbridge, they stole my backpack. That's it. Ironically I was carrying everything else I had at the time and they got about two boxes of granola bars. How many problems did I have with aggressive drunk white-jock types or police officers that wanted to threaten me for staying in my car because it "looks suspicious" - - countless. We've been invited to fish camps (my husband went and was given a full backpack of smoked salmon). We've been invited into homes, given lunch / dinner, kept company with people that had very little themselves but just wanted to meet the visitors. 2. Edmonton is just..... terribly bad for inner-city crime. I wouldn't use it as a basis for comparison for just about anything. I live in Calgary, and yes we have our own issues (like the rise in shootings). Edmonton for quite some time (if I recall correctly) was the attempted murder capital of Canada. The way they have structured a lot of their city even leads to it being easier to pull off crimes like muggings. And their police are particularly bad. The only time my husband was assaulted in his sleep was by a cop kicking him in the chest, not realizing it was him because he had his sleeping bag pulled up. And not gently either. (That was before we bought a van, we were pretty young.) When police are brutal in a place (and Edmonton and Calgary police both have national reputations) it actually tends to lead to worse crimes. It at least tends to "encourage it" because it sets up a conflict for an area, and the more aggressive criminal types jump in to fight it. "Their turf." 3. Have you read the Truth and Reconciliation Document? I strongly suggest that you do. It is aimed at us LOL. And we are the group most likely to be dismissive of it. It is totally worth the read regarding the difficulty with the current situation. When you read it, try to notice the impact on families and individual youth. You mention the culture as a downfall. I am curious what portion of the culture you disagree with or dismiss. Are you familiar of the general values or it is more tipis and headdresses? 4. You pointed out in your OP that she had the "sunshine and lollipops" view of them. I can see you being VERY invalidating to your partner with that mentality, because I sincerely doubt that she said "it's all sunshine and lollipops with them." She may have mentioned some things like poverty, overcrowding and needing more opportunities and positive things that happened when they were granted. Or she didn't think the kids were all that bad. Or that the community was supportive etc. It seems as though you didn't even listen to her perspective at all, just argued it or stayed defensive on your own, which isn't necessary when you are sharing. Overall, my experience has been that middle-aged white males tend to be most dismissive of the Native experience saying things like "if they don't want to live that way then they need to XYZ instead." Which is. . . . valid but extremely unlikely to happen under the conditions that they are inheriting. PLUS having been systemically discriminated against (most discriminated against group in Canada, and that's saying a lot.) AND having a distrust of government which is OBLIGATED BY TREATY to have them as wards of the state, which they DO NOT take care of and historically have robbed more and more. As recently as when Prentice was an MP, (and Native Affairs Minister, Harper Government) I would get pamphlets in the mail about negotiating a Northern Pipeline through Native territory and how there was one tribe holding out. My least favorite pamphlet that sparked a letter was one where he let his constituents know that he was going to tell this tribe, about their own land, that they had to "put up or shut up" and that he would look into ways to expropriate the land because "blah blah blah economy / security." I am sure you can imagine I rushed out to vote for him when he ran as Premier. Not. (No I didn't vote NDP either, if I wanted debt I would apply for some more credit cards and order 16000 pizzas). 5. The Conservatives lost nationally for a lot of reasons. Frankly, Canadians don't like electing "rulers" as much as we like "leaders with a nice image." Harper always did run the government, science departments foreign affairs and press like his own personal fiefdom. Which was kept under wraps for awhile, as in it wasn't blasted across the mainstream. We lost a lot of diplomatic, scientific and economic (yes economic) opportunities because of this. In the end it seemed that he was riding on lowered taxation and security fears to keep him in office. That works for a certain subset of people, but not all of us. It just smacked of American politic. Then getting together with the Ford Brothers at the end? Seriously? The "tough on crime" guy is getting together with the Ford Brothers as a last-ditch effort to obtain re-election. What was he thinking? Had he lost his mind? My own riding nearly went Liberal. Jeepers. As for economic management he was OKAY. He ran a deficit every year except election years. (Having been here during the Klein years I despise deficit budgets, and can't believe the Stelmach government wrecked the profitability of this province about 5 mins after Klein left office). So great, the backlash against conservative "fiefdom" politics was getting the NDP above us provincially and a huge Liberal deficit budget just above that. Enjoy the next few years, because whatever they bring we are going to pay big-time for them. I will say that Trudeau does seem genuine in his vision for Canada and I believe that he will do better for us internationally. The economy though? Yech. 6. My mother has a degree in Native Studies. She went back to school in her mid-forties for a Child Studies degree and ended up being pulled toward the Native issues. Most Canadians lack a fundamental understanding of the issues and how the government itself has largely crippled many Native Communities. As well, how self-determination has had largely mixed results, depending on the quality of leadership in any given area. It's incredibly stupid the way things are set up, it practically breeds poverty and dependence with little opportunity for improvement. 3
dreamingoftigers Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 i'd be careful here.. If she is passionate about human rights and cultural reparations and equality you could be walking on thin ice. I would 'agree to disagree' and not discuss these things again. I'm a Canadian with similar view points to your girlfriend, am also not a normally conflict oriented person, but I would never date someone with your view points. I have broken up with people before over issues like that because i think that it reflects a larger part of how that person sees the world and the people around them. If you want to keep her I suggest not ever discussing things like that again if you can avoid it. Particularly if it's something she is so passionate about that she has worked within that culture.. Also, how do you think she 'over reacted' SHE is the one that tried to diffuse the situation and end the conflict.. did you expect her to change her mind? I agree with this. I have actually left jobs where people were only discriminatory against a minority group. Most people don't know that my best friend is a Muslim for instance. People don't last long in my circle if they want to paint a large segment of population with a large brush. Really sick of "all terrorists are Muslim and all Muslims are terrorists" argument. They make up one billion people globally. If they were "all terrorists" we'd have a much bigger problem. Furthermore, most people that spout off at the mouth don't even know that there are different Muslims sects (Sunni, Shi'ite, Sufis for instance). It's like blaming a Catholic for something a Jehovah's Witness would do. Usually when people are intolerant and utterly refuse to listen, there's almost no point in engaging with them on any level. 4
Redhead14 Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 We were talking about the tar sands here in Alberta (Canada), and I made the mistake of bringing up the previous prime minister Stephen Harper. I didn't mind him. I certainly grew tired of his policies, but she hated him, especially his apathy of the First Nations/indigenous people. I should've left it alone, but I made the comment that they bring a lot of the issues on themselves. Issues I saw first hand when I lived in Edmonton. She on the other hand seems to think nothing but sunshine and lollipops of them. Again, I should've just kept my mouth shut, but I made the final point that if one dog bites me, I don't blame all dogs. I've had knives pulled on me by First Nations youth living in downtown Edmonton in the middle of the afternoon, and frankly don't have anything good to say about the culture, but I maintain that these are likely isolated events that don't reflect the vast majority. She replied back with "We clearly disagree. You have your impressions and I have mine. I don't want to discuss this anymore." I feel like she's overreacting. I took a soft approach on the subject, but it's clearly something she feels strongly about. We've been together for just over two months. Never had so much as a disagreement. She's very gentle natured and even tempered, but has been sick lately, so perhaps she's tired. I don't feel like I need to apologize, since I was hust giving honest accounts of my experiences and held back quite a lot/softened my words because I do care about her. Did she overreact, or is this a case where I need to tread more lightly in the future? Politics and bedfellows don't mix. I'd just leave it alone. I wouldn't apologize -- there's nothing to apologize for. You have your opinion and you are entitled to it and she has hers. You now know she feels strongly about this subject. You should just agree to disagree and not talk about it anymore. Don't pick at sore spots. 2
Author CalvinM Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 I'm not intolerant of natives. As I stated, ive had a lot of negative interactions, but I certainly don't have a prejudice towards them, as stated by my "I don't blame all dogs for one dog biting me." I think it's very easy to have expectations of people, or preconceived notions based on previous experiences, but I don't feel that's the case here. 1
Author CalvinM Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 Since this seems to have turned into a thread based on my bias of first natives, I'll open the discussion up further with statistics. It's a well known fact statistically, that areas with higher aboriginal populations in Canada have higher incidents of crime. Incarceration of aboriginals hovers around 23% of the prison population. Aboriginals are 10x more likely to commit crimes. 1. Demographic Overview of Aboriginal Peoples in Canada and Aboriginal Offenders in Federal Corrections 2. The incarceration of Aboriginal people in adult correctional services 3. Backgrounder - Aboriginal Offenders - A Critical Situation 4. Canada?s prison population at all-time high - CBC News - Latest Canada, World, Entertainment and Business News Perhaps negative stereotypes exist for multiple reasons. But acts being perpetuated by certain minorities only help to solidify statistics.
kismetkismet Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 The amount of abuse and cultural destruction inflicted on their populations, as well as systemic oppression, segregation, intolerance all contribute to WHY there is so much crime. You are not looking at the larger picture of how these situations came to be, not showing any empathy for how these populations got there.. Perpetuating negative stereotypes and not showing any forgiveness or empathy just increases the divisiveness and makes populations that much more ostracized and discriminated against - which in turn leaves them with little options to integrate with society (a society we inflicted on them) and little desire to. These issues are so much more complex than incidences of crime, it's about generations upon generations of destroyed culture, abuse, addiction, discrimination..... You clearly lack the larger empathy that your girlfriend possesses. Anyway, we don't have to agree on this - arguing on the internet is basically useless. But I say all of this to point out where your girlfriend is coming from a bit, so that you understand the depth of the issue from her standpoint. If she is someone that feels passionately about the rights of first nations people and has worked with them in their communities at a close level, i suggest you never use the phrase "perhaps negative stereotypes exist for multiple reasons" around her as it only demonstrates your ignorance and intolerance. 5
AndOrchid Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 ^THIS. You are only looking at their current situation without considering the context. You need to look at the larger picture if you want to form an informed opinion on sensitive issues like that. Your girlfriend is actually a great resource. You can ask her to share her experiences; this could be a good way to show that you can keep an open mind, are interested in learning more and respect her opinions. 2
Author CalvinM Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 We talked briefly tonight. This is what I said: "It probably doesn't need to be said, but I'm very much attracted to how passionate you are about human rights. It's perhaps an area that I could definitely be more enlightened in. It definitely bothers me that I don't necessarily see indigenous ppl the way you've encountered them, and I'm definitely open minded and interested in hearing about how their experiences have shaped your life. I hope you don't think I'm biased or prejudiced against certain groups. I'm not. And I've tried not to allow the incidents I've seen and been involved in to shape my opinion of their culture as a whole. I greatly value and respect your opinion(s) and am often looking for another side of the story, generally because I'm not always sold on my point of view. So while I feel we're great at the relationship type stuff, it's always nice to add a bit of culture and world news to the mix." 3
thecrucible Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 It sounds like a misunderstanding. I'm politically moderate and don't like dogma so I try and see things from different points of view, even the less savoury. It doesn't mean I condone people who have negative opinions; it's about seeing the entire picture. Sometimes people can jump to conclusions based on that. Anyway I think the problem is solved because you were honest about what you actually meant and that you didn't want to disagree with each other. 1
dreamingoftigers Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 Since this seems to have turned into a thread based on my bias of first natives, I'll open the discussion up further with statistics. It's a well known fact statistically, that areas with higher aboriginal populations in Canada have higher incidents of crime. Incarceration of aboriginals hovers around 23% of the prison population. Aboriginals are 10x more likely to commit crimes. 1. Demographic Overview of Aboriginal Peoples in Canada and Aboriginal Offenders in Federal Corrections 2. The incarceration of Aboriginal people in adult correctional services 3. Backgrounder - Aboriginal Offenders - A Critical Situation 4. Canada?s prison population at all-time high - CBC News - Latest Canada, World, Entertainment and Business News Perhaps negative stereotypes exist for multiple reasons. But acts being perpetuated by certain minorities only help to solidify statistics. Oh crap. I am not jerking around pulling up stats about how the Native Population is blatantly over-represented in the Criminal Justice System. It has been run over and over and over again that when up for the same crimes, Natives are far more likely to be arrested, charged and then sentenced much harsher for the same offense. Also, upon release they generally have access to fewer resources to rebuild (or just build) their lives. Many of these issues can be traced to systemic discrimination and poverty, unless we want to say there's something inherently wrong with the Native Population, which is, by definition, racism.
dreamingoftigers Posted November 11, 2015 Posted November 11, 2015 We talked briefly tonight. This is what I said: "It probably doesn't need to be said, but I'm very much attracted to how passionate you are about human rights. It's perhaps an area that I could definitely be more enlightened in. It definitely bothers me that I don't necessarily see indigenous ppl the way you've encountered them, and I'm definitely open minded and interested in hearing about how their experiences have shaped your life. I hope you don't think I'm biased or prejudiced against certain groups. I'm not. And I've tried not to allow the incidents I've seen and been involved in to shape my opinion of their culture as a whole. I greatly value and respect your opinion(s) and am often looking for another side of the story, generally because I'm not always sold on my point of view. So while I feel we're great at the relationship type stuff, it's always nice to add a bit of culture and world news to the mix." Look. I wasn't directly trying to bash you. Just try to illustrate a slightly larger perspective. I often see Native Peoples marginalized and there is often a strong prejudice on the other side. The Truth and Reconciliation Documents are probably the best resources that could promote some understanding if only people would bother to read it.
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