I really miss politeness......

[Tayla]

Manners are not gender specific. Please, thank you and may I? seem to have decreased in a rush to get to the party table.

 

While some are grabbing their dessert, they are probably getting the crumbs that have smattered and congealed.

 

Get back to social graces... please, and thank you!

[Woggle]

The kind of feminism most posters here believe in and the kind that the men are talking about are two very different things. I fully support equal rights but what I see today is more misandrist hatred then anything. I have seen men get spit at for holding open a door. A lot of these modern feminists are openly proud of being misandrist as well.

[Wewon]

The kind of feminism most posters here believe in and the kind that the men are talking about are two very different things. I fully support equal rights but what I see today is more misandrist hatred then anything. I have seen men get spit at for holding open a door. A lot of these modern feminists are openly proud of being misandrist as well.

 

I see your point and I've seen a lot of this sort of hateful behavior myself.

 

But to clarify my post, I think that the problems stated in the OP are much broader than gender or feminism. I see a lot of the same thoughtlessness that she's speaking of in non-romatic, intragender relationships. There's just an overall climate of people looking out for themselves and resenting anyone that tries to curb their behavior.

[Michelle ma Belle]

The kind of feminism most posters here believe in and the kind that the men are talking about are two very different things. I fully support equal rights but what I see today is more misandrist hatred then anything. I have seen men get spit at for holding open a door. A lot of these modern feminists are openly proud of being misandrist as well.

 

And would you not agree that this is more of a generational thing?

[Woggle]

And would you not agree that this is more of a generational thing?

 

Not really. My mother and her buddies are some of the most hateful and misandrist people I have ever seen. I have seen her seethe with rage because a man smiles at her. She says men even speaking to women in public is verbal rape. Tumbler just gives them a platform to express it.

[mrldii]

The kind of feminism most posters here believe in and the kind that the men are talking about are two very different things...

 

Agreed. They are two completely different things.

 

So why are the terms "feminist" and "misandrist" used interchangeably, as if they're synonyms?

 

And, more importantly, why do some men equate ALL women as [evil] feminists (i.e., misandrists) and allow these misandrists (i.e., feminists) to dictate how they will behave and operate within the world? I mean, as a heterosexual woman, the last people I'd be taking direction from as to how I'll live my life is the misogynists...I don't give misogynists the time of day, let alone a whole lifetime's worth of worry and despair to alter my behavior.

 

[Truth34]

Equal pay and general acceptance of non-traditional roles in the workplace should not really be considered feminism. That makes it seem like it is held to a higher standard, above the previous way of doing things. It is simply equality. Men and women performing the same job should be compensated fairly.

 

Feminism as a whole is not a healthy thing imo. It puts "feminist" ideals ahead of the rest of us who are just doing things how they have always been done, making it seem inferior. I'm tired of minority things becoming bigger than the majority just because they demand it so. Just be a good person, be fair, and treat people with the respect that they treat you and everything will be fine. No one deserves their rights to be placed on a pedestal.

[Shining One]

Good God, I miss the days of politeness!!!

Surround yourself with polite people. They still exist. I have plenty within my circle of friends.

Feminism and chivalry aren't mutually exclusive for heaven's sake.

I get the point you're trying to make, and I agree with you. This has nothing to do with Feminism. However, I have to disagree with this quote. My understanding of Feminism is that men and women are equal. The goal of the Feminist movement is to address the remaining inequalities. Chivalry calls for the special treatment of one gender and not another, thus it's an inequality. If I'm missing anything, please let me know.

But how does equal rights and pay for women = now I don't have to be chivalrous...I can be a straight up JERK??

There's a wide range of behaviors between being chivalrous and being a jerk. Can you provide an example of what you consider being a jerk? According to one of my coworkers, getting out of an elevator before a woman is being a jerk.

Manners are not gender specific. Please, thank you and may I? seem to have decreased in a rush to get to the party table.

 

While some are grabbing their dessert, they are probably getting the crumbs that have smattered and congealed.

 

Get back to social graces... please, and thank you!

I completely agree. Politeness should not be gender-specific. I try to be courteous to anyone. If someone is walking in the door behind me, I hold it for them. If someone is carrying something heavy, I offer to help them. If I have to cancel plans, I will text or call you. Whether you are male or female makes no difference in these scenarios.

[Woggle]

Agreed. They are two completely different things.

 

So why are the terms "feminist" and "misandrist" used interchangeably, as if they're synonyms?

 

And, more importantly, why do some men equate ALL women as [evil] feminists (i.e., misandrists) and allow these misandrists (i.e., feminists) to dictate how they will behave and operate within the world? I mean, as a heterosexual woman, the last people I'd be taking direction from as to how I'll live my life is the misogynists...I don't give misogynists the time of day, let alone a whole lifetime's worth of worry and despair to alter my behavior.

 

 

Because a lot of misandrists hide behind feminism and have dragged it down with him.

 

The last most decent men want to be labeled is a misogynist or even worse a predator and we feel like we are constantly walking on eggshells with women these days so the only men who even approach women anymore are the genuine creeps and peverts.

[Teraskas]

It sounds like you've had some not-so-great experiences... But PLEASE don't lump ALL women in with these "friends" you've had bad experiences with.

 

A girl worth her salt WILL appreciate a man who is chivalrous and sweeps her off her feet. I'm being honest here!

 

Maybe instead of trying to act like a jerk in order to attract women, maybe you should just try being yourself and raising your stakes higher on women who are actually GOOD quality women. But see... a lot of men kill me because the very "good" and nice woman that would actually APPRECIATE a man's kindness (such as yours) are constantly being looked over for the "hotter" more "popular" types of women. You guys complain that the woman walks over you when you're nice, but yet you probably don't give truly NICE women a chance because you're too busy chasing after the "hotties" who feel like they can afford to treat a man like dirt because they're "Hot" and so another man will come around eventually.

 

You'll have to forgive me for not being able to stop laughing uncontrollably.

I've had similar experiences with women I've met, not so much "friends" but rather complete strangers through dating.

 

In my 3,5 years of actively being a gentleman in the dating realm (and not to be confused with the popular "doormat / white knight" definition.) I have not encountered ONE woman who appreciates kindness, being well mannered, (chivalrous to a degree: occasionally holding doors, etc. ...not getting too overzealous.), intelligence, etc.

Not. One.

I have never acted like a jerk. It's not something I've been taught by my parents due to a British upbringing from my mother's side.

Perhaps adopted a bit more of an "I don't care" attitude about certain things, but that's about it.

 

Past experiences have shown that being "yourself" is never good enough for women.

I'm more than satisfied with the current iteration of personality I've achieved, and I highly doubt that's subject to change anytime soon.

But trust me, being yourself is never good enough.

Lack of a spark (on their end) is something which very frequently comes to mind when I actually...you know...TRY to be myself instead of an over the top expectation of women.

 

I don't waste my time chasing "the hot ones", because I know they're being targetted far too much by other men.

Doesn't matter if you tried, because they'll find a flaw anyhow. Usually it's how physically you're not attractive enough, or the lack of figures on one's bank account.

I always go after women who match my personality, and with whom I share common ground.

I always give those I'm interested in a chance, it's just never the other way around.

Sure, she might not look like a perfect 10, but rather a 7...but if her personality is great, that's absolutely fine by me!

The trouble these days (atleast in Belgium.) is that even the NICE ones seem to have a complete and utter sense of entitlement.

This includes women who are out of shape, women who don't have their lives in order, and so on.

I have given nice women a chance, but they are too focused on holding out for "the next best thing" rather than give the person standing in front of their face a chance.

At this point in time, at age 24 I have close to given up on women because every single one I encounter seems to be completely identical with the sense of entitlement, the "I don't need a man" attitude, and generally all round women who shouldn't even consider dating in the first place. (Be it on the rebound, still obsessing over their ex, etc.)

I guess that mentally, I'm still one of the previous generation.

 

So, I honestly don't know what to do anymore.

Wait until I'm older? That seems to have significant more pull than a guy my age who knows what he wants from life and treats others respectfully.

An increased chance of encountering gold diggers does come to mind.

Go for older women in the 18-30 bracket ?

Doesn't seem like an option either as I'm labeled "too young" by the 25 and up folk who don't even consider going down a few years in the age department.

Far from easy, as I'm mentally on the level of someone in their 30s and never given a chance to prove that I'm different from the immature guys my age.

 

Also on topic: I admire *true* feminism, equality and all that good stuff.

However, from what I've experienced by going on dates, it seems to me that feminism these days is nothing more than the perfect cover for women who spout misandrist statements 24/7.

Alternatively, a LOT of women I've encountered only want equality when it suits them.

They want to have their cake and eat it too. xD

As a man, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't". There's no conceivable way to determine if a woman is either a feminist or a misandrist right off the bat.

To me, it only becomes clear when the date progresses, lol.

As Woggle mentioned, it's like constantly walking on eggshells...and believe me, it does get old after a while. ^^

 

Either way, it's similar to online dating.

A small but sizable portion of douchebags has ruined it for those who are serious about it and have good intentions.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Teraskas

[Wewon]

Agreed. They are two completely different things.

 

So why are the terms "feminist" and "misandrist" used interchangeably, as if they're synonyms?

 

And, more importantly, why do some men equate ALL women as [evil] feminists (i.e., misandrists) and allow these misandrists (i.e., feminists) to dictate how they will behave and operate within the world? I mean, as a heterosexual woman, the last people I'd be taking direction from as to how I'll live my life is the misogynists...I don't give misogynists the time of day, let alone a whole lifetime's worth of worry and despair to alter my behavior.

 

 

Its the rare group that doesn't in judged by its extremes or more importantly its most vocal.

 

In fairness to both sides of the discussion I've never met a misandrist that didn't also call herself a feminist. And many of them don't lead with their misandristic views, those come out in other ways.

 

The problem is that women that don't feel that same way rarely call them out because they are usually some of the strongest advocates with the most dominant personalities.

 

That being said, I've never met a man that allowed a misandrist to "dictate" how he lived or giving them a lifetime of worry and dispair. This shouldn't be confused with acknowledging that they exist and that they are operating under the safety of others, and typically not being called out. Let's be real here, its only been recently that feminist at large have even started acknowledging the existence of this misandristic element.

[JasmineJones]

I'm seeing a lot of men dissing feminists on LS and also men claiming women will date just for free food.

 

What gives with this women-hating attitude?

[Lois_Griffin]

Blame the feminists. You've got a world of men who don't know what to do anymore. Should I hold the door? Should I offer to carry her books? Should I be nice? Am I being too nice?

Same old agenda.

 

Women are to blame for everything, aren't they?

 

Every.

Friggen.

Thing.

 

A man wants to act like a friggen pig and think with his d*ck? Why it must be a woman's fault.

 

A man wants to act like an uncouth ass-clown who was raised by wolves? Yep, gotta be a woman's fault.

 

A man can't be bothered to show any respect at all to someone he met for a whole 5 minutes that day? Yeah, it's a woman's fault.

Edited November 5, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Language

[Michelle ma Belle]

.I get the point you're trying to make, and I agree with you. This has nothing to do with Feminism. However, I have to disagree with this quote. My understanding of Feminism is that men and women are equal. The goal of the Feminist movement is to address the remaining inequalities. Chivalry calls for the special treatment of one gender and not another, thus it's an inequality. If I'm missing anything, please let me know.

 

As I said, chivalry and feminism are NOT mutually exclusive. And once again, I myself am a feminist. I believe in the social, economic and political equality of both (and every) genders, and I believe that in no way are women less capable than men. I believe that I, as a woman, should be entitled to the same salary, the same opportunity, the same education, the same access as men. And I believe that gender equality has yet to be fully recognized.

 

Feminism does not stand at odds with chivalry, with general human decency, with kindness. Believing in the advancement of women — in the equality of the sexes — is not a zero sum game. We do not have to lose to gain for heaven’s sake. We do not have to ask men to shut doors for us so that we can open them ourselves.

 

There is a LOT of misunderstanding around what it means to truly be a feminist, especially among women. The confusion has made many women (and men) extremely uncomfortable with the way in which they interact with the world. For some women, feminism and man-hate, unshaven armpits and other early 20th century stereotypes have merge into a single tunnel-like vision, and for other women, feminism has become synonymous with an almost arrogant, ostentatious need to prove a point at any cost. Somewhere along the way I think we've lost sight of what the point is.

 

I don't believe for a second that being a feminist and wanting to be treated with respect and dignity means that I want to have my cake and eat it too. Because I don't expect you to open the door for me because I'm a woman, but because I'm a human being. Feminism is not an excuse to be rude.

 

Hillary Clinton famously noted that women's rights are human rights. My wanting to be treated equally doesn't mean that I expect you to be an a**hole to me, mostly because I want to believe that you'd treat anyone in the world, regardless of gender, with the same courtesy.

 

I also think that the true meaning of the word "chivalry" has become as lost and confused as "feminism," and perhaps this is why the two seem to be at odds with one another. But at its core, chivalry can be described as the intersection of ideal knightly qualities, including but not limited to courtesy, generosity, valor and of course, an ability to take up arms. While not all of these characteristics apply today as they would have in days of yore, these are the same basic principles that should guide ALL human behavior, regardless of gender.

 

Feminism is not meant to be a barrier to either gender. Rather, it is meant to establish a sense of mutual understanding and respect that will allow for the whole of humanity to operate at its best. Inequality of the sexes is NOT only a woman's issue because it hurts men as well. Our economy, our infrastructure, our very livelihoods suffer when men and women are not afforded the same opportunities but feminism cannot place itself at odds with human decency and kindness either. As women, we cannot deny ourselves simple pleasures in life and blame gender equality as the problem. If anything, that simply reinforces the problem.

 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Michelle ma Belle

[GoodOnPaper]

Very simply, young men are learning in their formative dating years that politeness and sensitivity are viewed as weakness and non-masculine. The only way around it is if you have a rough, "alpha"- or player-like exterior. Then, once you have a woman infatuated, you can reveal some sensitivity just to her and it is considered endearing. I can't say I am surprised that you find men phoning it in when it comes to politeness.

[Shining One]

I also think that the true meaning of the word "chivalry" has become as lost and confused as "feminism," and perhaps this is why the two seem to be at odds with one another. But at its core, chivalry can be described as the intersection of ideal knightly qualities, including but not limited to courtesy, generosity, valor and of course, an ability to take up arms. While not all of these characteristics apply today as they would have in days of yore, these are the same basic principles that should guide ALL human behavior, regardless of gender.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that women should be chivalrous to men as well. If that's the case, I agree with you.

[Michelle ma Belle]

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that women should be chivalrous to men as well. If that's the case, I agree with you.

 

Absolutely. It's goes both ways.

[xcupid]

 

A girl worth her salt WILL appreciate a man who is chivalrous and sweeps her off her feet. I'm being honest here!

 

Maybe instead of trying to act like a jerk in order to attract women, maybe you should just try being yourself and raising your stakes higher on women who are actually GOOD quality women. But see... a lot of men kill me because the very "good" and nice woman that would actually APPRECIATE a man's kindness (such as yours) are constantly being looked over for the "hotter" more "popular" types of women. You guys complain that the woman walks over you when you're nice, but yet you probably don't give truly NICE women a chance because you're too busy chasing after the "hotties" who feel like they can afford to treat a man like dirt because they're "Hot" and so another man will come around eventually.

 

Ironically men say the same thing about women - how women overlook nice guys and nice guys aren't given a chance.

[Guyouthere]

Completley wrong of him, and as a guy, can tell you that this is not someone who is worth a woman's time (not a good one anyway).

[smackie9]

I feel some get "doormats" mixed up with "nice guys"

[SwordofFlame]

My problem is with the women that want equality in everything except dating. Equal rights. Equal pay. Equal opportunities. Dating - men should do all of the work.

[mrldii]

I feel some get "doormats" mixed up with "nice guys"

 

Yup, yup.

 

I've only ever dated "nice guys". Of course, the women who dated them before me and who fell head-over-heels in unrequited love probably found them to be "d*ckheads"; no doubt these same "nice guys" I dated who fell into unrequited love with women before me found those women to be "feminist misandrists", too.

 

 

The labels we place upon others to make ourselves feel better about our immediate little lots in life appears to all depend on our own personal - and extremely biased - points of view.

 

Thank God *normal*, healthy, well-adjusted adults realize this and don't take it all too seriously.

[Mystique01]

You'll have to forgive me for not being able to stop laughing uncontrollably.

I've had similar experiences with women I've met, not so much "friends" but rather complete strangers through dating.

 

In my 3,5 years of actively being a gentleman in the dating realm (and not to be confused with the popular "doormat / white knight" definition.) I have not encountered ONE woman who appreciates kindness, being well mannered, (chivalrous to a degree: occasionally holding doors, etc. ...not getting too overzealous.), intelligence, etc.

Not. One.

I have never acted like a jerk. It's not something I've been taught by my parents due to a British upbringing from my mother's side.

Perhaps adopted a bit more of an "I don't care" attitude about certain things, but that's about it.

 

Past experiences have shown that being "yourself" is never good enough for women.

I'm more than satisfied with the current iteration of personality I've achieved, and I highly doubt that's subject to change anytime soon.

But trust me, being yourself is never good enough.

Lack of a spark (on their end) is something which very frequently comes to mind when I actually...you know...TRY to be myself instead of an over the top expectation of women.

 

I don't waste my time chasing "the hot ones", because I know they're being targetted far too much by other men.

Doesn't matter if you tried, because they'll find a flaw anyhow. Usually it's how physically you're not attractive enough, or the lack of figures on one's bank account.

I always go after women who match my personality, and with whom I share common ground.

I always give those I'm interested in a chance, it's just never the other way around.

Sure, she might not look like a perfect 10, but rather a 7...but if her personality is great, that's absolutely fine by me!

The trouble these days (atleast in Belgium.) is that even the NICE ones seem to have a complete and utter sense of entitlement.

This includes women who are out of shape, women who don't have their lives in order, and so on.

I have given nice women a chance, but they are too focused on holding out for "the next best thing" rather than give the person standing in front of their face a chance.

At this point in time, at age 24 I have close to given up on women because every single one I encounter seems to be completely identical with the sense of entitlement, the "I don't need a man" attitude, and generally all round women who shouldn't even consider dating in the first place. (Be it on the rebound, still obsessing over their ex, etc.)

I guess that mentally, I'm still one of the previous generation.

 

So, I honestly don't know what to do anymore.

Wait until I'm older? That seems to have significant more pull than a guy my age who knows what he wants from life and treats others respectfully.

An increased chance of encountering gold diggers does come to mind.

Go for older women in the 18-30 bracket ?

Doesn't seem like an option either as I'm labeled "too young" by the 25 and up folk who don't even consider going down a few years in the age department.

Far from easy, as I'm mentally on the level of someone in their 30s and never given a chance to prove that I'm different from the immature guys my age.

 

Also on topic: I admire *true* feminism, equality and all that good stuff.

However, from what I've experienced by going on dates, it seems to me that feminism these days is nothing more than the perfect cover for women who spout misandrist statements 24/7.

Alternatively, a LOT of women I've encountered only want equality when it suits them.

They want to have their cake and eat it too. xD

As a man, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't". There's no conceivable way to determine if a woman is either a feminist or a misandrist right off the bat.

To me, it only becomes clear when the date progresses, lol.

As Woggle mentioned, it's like constantly walking on eggshells...and believe me, it does get old after a while. ^^

 

Either way, it's similar to online dating.

A small but sizable portion of douchebags has ruined it for those who are serious about it and have good intentions.

 

Thank you for clarifying a little bit what your experiences have been.

 

Honestly, maybe I misjudged your situation. It sounds like you're in a different country maybe....Belgium? Unfortunately I can't really speak for how things are in Belgium. I can only speak of where I was born and raised in the USA. While I have visited various other countries in my lifetime, I have never been to Belgium. So, who knows...maybe things are a LOT different over there? I honestly can't speak for the women over there at all. I can only go by my own personal experiences, how I feel, and how most of the women in my friendship circle feel as well.

 

So, perhaps there's something deeper going on over there in Belgium that I'm not aware of. All I know is that most women over here usually DO appreciate a GOOD man. Especially when you're past a certain age (like myself....I'm in my early 30's).

 

It also sounds like maybe the age bracket you're looking at may be the problem. If 18-30 year olds are considered "older women" to you, then maybe you're quite young? I don't know.....Maybe I misunderstood your comment in your post, but it sounded like you might be young if those women are "older women" to you. ARe you in your teens?

 

I'm not trying to be condescending or anything, but I'm thinking that the AGE range might actually be a problem as well. See, when women are YOUNG (perhaps women around your age), we don't always see what is best for us. Thankfully, I was always raised to have good manners and morals, so I always had polite manners, showed respect for others, and never really craved for the "bad boy". But, I do know that there are a lot of women when they are still late teens and early 20's who just treat "nice guys" like they're dirt. I completely understand that. It's frustrating I'm sure! But after age 25 or so, when college years are over, maybe their looks have gone down some lol...and they start settling into more "marriage years", a woman starts to realize what guys are truly worth their time. A lot of them may have experimented with or gone after the "bad boy" or the "popular dude" only to have their hearts broken and dashed to pieces. It's then they start realizing that "hey....I actually want a NICE guy".

 

While I didn't "go after" a bad boy, I did waste 4 good years of my life in an on-again/off-again relationship with a guy who was very emotionally UNavailable in my 20's. 3.5 almost 4 years on a guy completely WASTED! After he broke my heart it was then I realized that I didn't want a guy who was "hot and cold", who was a jerk, who could be charming but then turn it right off as quickly as it was turned on. NO...I really wanted a GENUINE nice guy.

 

 

I think those girls are out there though.... you just have to be patient, maybe get a little older, or look in various avenues. So far you're doing things the right way it seems. Continue to not just go after the girls who are "hot" or who seem to have a ton of guys flocking towards them. Usually those types may not always be as open to a nice guy. It just depends. Since some are so used to guy attention, they may view your niceness as being "too eager". But then there are also the same popular girls who get used and abused by popular guys and who really ARE looking for a "nice guy". So, you just never know.

 

I would say though, don't give up!

[Michelle ma Belle]

My problem is with the women that want equality in everything except dating. Equal rights. Equal pay. Equal opportunities. Dating - men should do all of the work.

 

Then perhaps you need to be more discerning about the kind of women you're dating. This is a problem YOU can fix - stop dating women who don't comprehend the true meaning of feminism.

 

I already commented how women have it just as confused as men do which only exasperates the problem.

 

Having said that, there are just as many women who DO have it right just like there are men.

 

You can't keep blaming "them" if you're constantly asking "them" out on a date. You need to take some responsibility for who you're choosing.

[TheCatInTheHat]

I hear ya sista

 

I'm sure the men have their own tales to tell of impolite women but I will agree with you that things aren't what they used to be. I too miss the days of manners, respect and chivalry. Those men seem few and far between anymore. Such a shame.

 

I just don't get guys that act like this. It has to be a very low % shot.

 

Then again.. "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king" ...