Digging up old records, new questions.

[merrmeade]

I get this. I'm in my late 50s but our daughter is 11 years old. I have already decided that I could stay or leave, it doesn't matter. But I am not going to leave just because she screwed up.

 

And for what it is worth, I will never buy the sh-t sandwich metaphor. This is why I speak of the elephant in the room.

 

What needs to leave is this massive invisible-to-the-naked-eye elephant who continues to occupy our thoughts and feelings. There comes a moment when the realization that family is all that matters in this world means asking that elephant to leave. It is, properly understood, a true act of forgiveness.

 

The irony is, if I am going to leave my WW for any reason, I can see now that it will be for something significantly LESS important than her LTR with a co-worker. It will be because I WANT TO LEAVE. And for that reason, it is not likely to happen. I have no desire to start a new relationship, look for another - but this does not mean I stay because I have "given up". I stay because I am with the person I want to be with. I have the family that I want and cherish. Sure I have some bad days as a result of this, but I recognize that these are thoughts and feelings I control, not her. Ill deal with them as I see fit.

 

If I look at some marriages that have not experienced infidelity, by the way, I see people who anyone might say are eating that sh-t sandwich. But having learned what being in a marriage that has suffered, truly suffered from infidelity, I am more cautious about drawing too many conclusions about couples, love, endurance, crises, as an outsider.

 

There are innumerable ways in which people find themselves living in pain and enduring it. Marriage has its share of these, whether it be betrayal from infidelity or any other issue. Humans have an enormous capacity to endure whatever crap life throws at them. Some people might ask "Why do you put up with it?", but I think that question is really a way of saying "I don't know if I could put up with what you do", and we know from stories here that the only response is, "No you don't, but you might be surprised if you were in my shoes".

Dear Fellini (it's so weird to say that to anyone remembering your presumed namesake), I've been so pissed at you so many times for your obstinant independence and that's a charitable interpretation of how I saw it. But this brought tears to my eyes and spoke my heart. I like this off-handed way of angling in at the - shhhh - forgiveness part (which I can only refer to obliquely like this) that avoids the maudlin religious overtones. Yeah, it's hard and we're not heroes, but I think you understand the fullness that comes with loving all the irony and the simplicity of our choice, the joy of humility and acceptance. and your daughter will love you for it, I feel. My daughter gets it and I am buoyed by her understanding.

[understand50]

merrmeade,

 

I am sorry that I am not as active as I once was on LS, I would have liked to respond early in the thread. Your goal is to reconcile, and for reasons good for you. As this is your goal, any new information on the affair, needs to balanced with the the idea, does this show that the "story" you have been told is different, or is this just another piece that shows a little more detail of what you know. If it just shows more detail, I do not think it adds to both of your "recovery", and I would just docket it, if your Ex-WH ever gets to the point he can go to IC you may need to bring it up. If it showed that there were other things going on I would confront. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that it does not.

 

If it has showed that the "story" was wrong, and circumstances were different, you should ask for a explanation. This happened to me, with a letter, that came up many years latter, that showed her ONS, was not her being seduced, but her going after the guy to bed him on a bet. As she could point to 20 years of a good faithful marriage, we were able to talk it out, with an idea of finally being completely open. I do not know if it will take your husband 20 years, but again, what does talking about this get you now? Also what may it do for him?

 

Of the two of you, I think you are the more mature emotionally and are far stronger. Sometimes the strong have to carry the weak, and more so when we love them. I have said several times that reconciliation is harder then divorce, but it can be rewarding. I know you sometimes do not think that your reward is near, but having read your story, I think it may be closer then you think, and I hope it comes to you and to your husband.

 

I wish you luck, and hope for the best.

[merrmeade]

merrmeade,

 

I am sorry that I am not as active as I once was on LS, I would have liked to respond early in the thread. Your goal is to reconcile, and for reasons good for you. As this is your goal, any new information on the affair, needs to balanced with the the idea, does this show that the "story" you have been told is different, or is this just another piece that shows a little more detail of what you know. If it just shows more detail, I do not think it adds to both of your "recovery", and I would just docket it, if your Ex-WH ever gets to the point he can go to IC you may need to bring it up. If it showed that there were other things going on I would confront. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that it does not.

 

If it has showed that the "story" was wrong, and circumstances were different, you should ask for a explanation. This happened to me, with a letter, that came up many years latter, that showed her ONS, was not her being seduced, but her going after the guy to bed him on a bet. As she could point to 20 years of a good faithful marriage, we were able to talk it out, with an idea of finally being completely open. I do not know if it will take your husband 20 years, but again, what does talking about this get you now? Also what may it do for him?

 

Of the two of you, I think you are the more mature emotionally and are far stronger. Sometimes the strong have to carry the weak, and more so when we love them. I have said several times that reconciliation is harder then divorce, but it can be rewarding. I know you sometimes do not think that your reward is near, but having read your story, I think it may be closer then you think, and I hope it comes to you and to your husband.

 

I wish you luck, and hope for the best.

And yet you took the time to respond... Your first paragraph is amazing - nails it. That is the bottom line for this situation. It's good and important that someone summarized a guideline based on clear objectives and shared individual interests. I've always been touched by your careful language and penetrating humanity. It's a questionable talent this ability to understand ourselves as well as those driven to betray us so well. A little like parenting teenagers, though that's a walk in the park by comparison.

 

I hope you're right that the reward is closer than what's apparent. If so, what a relief. But if you think about it, we'd have to be real screw-ups for our 'twilight' years NOT to improve on pretty much everything that came before. That's all right. Already said I'll take it and love it.

 

And the light let in by the simple clarity in this post, another beacon lighting my way back to me and the fuzzy line between love and self-knowlege. In a way, loving my ability to see, know and understand is what allows me to love, making the truth finally about each, both and yet neither of us. The wonder, gratitude and peace from understanding also is a 'reward.'

[katielee]

one question though merrmeade - what prompted you to look for more? There must be something inside you that isn't satisfied with the explanation? Or, were you triggered?

[merrmeade]

one question though merrmeade - what prompted you to look for more? There must be something inside you that isn't satisfied with the explanation? Or, were you triggered?

Definitely a valid question. Thinking about it.

 

I wonder also what keeps me checking LS all day every day, too. I stopped checking and posting so often for a while recently and felt like I had a relapse because there was no one to talk to, no "talking" at all or not enough, not deeply enough.

 

But not sure that's the same thing as actively suffering.

 

I think the answer to both - why I stay on LS and why I checked the records - is simply that it keeps me healthy, sane and strong. It's part of my maintenance. I checked the records, I didn't find anything new and I'm okay with continuing to work with the status quo as long as H doesn't backslide into non-thinking, non-communicative self-pity (aka entitlement).

 

The question of changing him, remember, is simply off the table. Well, radical, perceptible, immediate change, that is.

 

Perhaps therein lies the real issue and ever-present source of my seeming co-dependence: handling him and his issues. But that also is bettter because I'm better. stronger and louder

[Lion Heart]

This thread is so deep and interesting. Piognant for me to watch this development from afar so to speak.

 

Affairs are confronting by nature. Painfully confronting. After D Day a BSs needs are all different if deciding to R. Or trying to R. But there seems to be a commonality striven for if we desperately want a full R. A more enriched M after D Day. I'm struggling with that concept big time. I just don't see HOW it could ever be enriched because of an A let alone multiple As. Etc.

 

I'm not sure if I've ever been more confronted and continue to be through discussions with WH, reading posts at times and other stuff online. I've often recoiled at what I've read or heard.

I'm not sure if it's "healthy" to be confronted consistently. I'm concerned that our values, as BSs, and any value we placed on our M or WSs have to be severely compromised. I feel that way now. The "forget it ever happened" or the "CAN'T we move ON from this" is frustrating. It's just not "done", ie finished with,

when a WS says so. These comments make us weigh up whether to bring certain things up. The "choose our battles" battle I see waging in me now.

 

In this mid stream period of R when the As are still weighing heavily on the mind of the BS, enough to know the M is not there yet by a long shot and even the possibilty of a "good R" is

questionable, what are we to do in R? Keep on bringing it up? I honestly feel like I'm nagging. I don't like this feeling at all. I know I can't move on in this fashion so I am still, yet less hurriedly, making plans for security post separation and D. I'm pretty sure I always will be. 3 more children to raise. I just can't put 100% effort in to R if I'm not seeing leaps and bounds by WH to make a good M. He's done alot (he feels) but I don't think he's done NEARLY enough for me to have confidence. So am I keeping a full R at bay? IDK. But I can't be a rug-sweeping doormat. Funny phrase.

 

But to rug-sweep, to have unanswered questions about the As is intolerable for me at least. Certainly atm. Yes I need more IC. I have to find ANOTHER one again since my last one moved out of the area. Ugh. I do bring up things constantly. Considering I'm only 6 weeks from the multiple As D Day.

 

My point is that I had to stop watching an Esther Perel clip because I was confronted. That's my problem obviously! It compared an A in Ms that R successfully with a person having cancer and recovering to live a fuller life.

There's a HUGE element of that analogy completely left unaddressed by her. Affairs are a CHOICE! Upholding fidelity in M is a CHOICE also. I've never heard of anyone self injecting cancer cells or worse, injecting their spouse with them, so they live a better life.

 

I think I'm basically struggling with the injustice of one partner cheating and escaping the myriad of pain the betrayed spouse feels. I feel myself thinking so often, it's just not fair.

 

I'd love to inject my spouse with something that could have him FEEL the pain I feel fully. I know having an RA would just add even more issues and I doubt he'd feel it like I do anyway. In fact I think he half expects me to. So he's not even going to be blindsided like I was if I did. For me? It would be the end of our M completely. If I got to that stage, it'd certainly be all over red rover. Even if I was the first person to have the A.

 

I know you're further out from me merrmeade but do you still feel any of this?

 

Lion Heart.

[understand50]

Loin Hart,

 

I am further then you both, and John Adams longer then myself. (I think). I can not speak for him, but as for myself, I can only say this all takes a long time. Assuming your spouse is not doing anything else to you, you will always have some resentment, and pain. I work at putting it in a box, and bringing it out when necessary. For her first "slip" we both decided to just bury it. That did work, for the most part. After her financial infidelity, and with me really considering divorce, it came out front, as I would not have any secrets between us. So from my own experience, I see several things.

 

1) Her ONS, was never forgotten, but I do believe I have forgiven her. I have learned, to set it aside and concentrate on the here and now.

 

2) The past can and will come up as a "other" issue, when problems happen in a marriage. In our case, her lying and spending us almost in to bankruptcy, brought up all the resentment from the past. If a spouse cheated in the past, and then does, or is not working on the marriage, or does something else "bad" the past magnifies the present. I found, I had to revisit her whole story, as I felt, and still do, she just can not be truthful, unless the thing is talked though. It was one of the reasons I asked about her sexual past in HS. It was a thing she hinted about, but would not talk about. When she finally told me about her past, or what I could verify or had heard from others, I bought her flowers. Not because I was happy about her past, but I was happy that she was being what I needed then, open with me.

 

So what does this may mean for you and merrmeade? Every couple who reconcile, will find a way to handle the huge "thing" between them. I do not think I will ever be happy at what she has done, but I am in love with her enough, to look at what I may have in the future with her. So I remember, but place her transgressions, in a box. I do not forget them, but I so not beat her up with them. If she starts slipping, and it is the financial side, I bring it up and remind her of the damage she has done to "our" marriage.

 

Maybe that is the "key" the WS has done damage to "the" marriage, as well as the person they love. I hope that both of you, look to what you may still build with your spouse, even if separated. As VBM, once said about his situation, "she can not un-F**k him". This is the main truth, you cannot undo the past, all you can do is move forward, and not keep making the same mistakes. You cannot change someone, all you have control over is yourself, and your actions.

 

I ask you both. "What is your future with your spouse?" "What can you do to change the situation, so the outcome is what you want?"

 

I guess, after all this nonsense, the answer is: "What is your future, will it be different than what you have now, and do you see it being better?"

 

My 10 cents. (2 cents, seems too small)

[merrmeade]

This thread is so deep and interesting. Piognant for me to watch this development from afar so to speak.

 

Affairs are confronting by nature. Painfully confronting. After D Day a BSs needs are all different if deciding to R. Or trying to R. But there seems to be a commonality striven for if we desperately want a full R. A more enriched M after D Day. I'm struggling with that concept big time. I just don't see HOW it could ever be enriched because of an A let alone multiple As. Etc.

 

I'm not sure if I've ever been more confronted and continue to be through discussions with WH, reading posts at times and other stuff online. I've often recoiled at what I've read or heard.

I'm not sure if it's "healthy" to be confronted consistently. I'm concerned that our values, as BSs, and any value we placed on our M or WSs have to be severely compromised. I feel that way now. The "forget it ever happened" or the "CAN'T we move ON from this" is frustrating. It's just not "done", ie finished with,

when a WS says so. These comments make us weigh up whether to bring certain things up. The "choose our battles" battle I see waging in me now.

 

In this mid stream period of R when the As are still weighing heavily on the mind of the BS, enough to know the M is not there yet by a long shot and even the possibilty of a "good R" is

questionable, what are we to do in R? Keep on bringing it up? I honestly feel like I'm nagging. I don't like this feeling at all. I know I can't move on in this fashion so I am still, yet less hurriedly, making plans for security post separation and D. I'm pretty sure I always will be. 3 more children to raise. I just can't put 100% effort in to R if I'm not seeing leaps and bounds by WH to make a good M. He's done alot (he feels) but I don't think he's done NEARLY enough for me to have confidence. So am I keeping a full R at bay? IDK. But I can't be a rug-sweeping doormat. Funny phrase.

 

But to rug-sweep, to have unanswered questions about the As is intolerable for me at least. Certainly atm. Yes I need more IC. I have to find ANOTHER one again since my last one moved out of the area. Ugh. I do bring up things constantly. Considering I'm only 6 weeks from the multiple As D Day.

 

My point is that I had to stop watching an Esther Perel clip because I was confronted. That's my problem obviously! It compared an A in Ms that R successfully with a person having cancer and recovering to live a fuller life.

There's a HUGE element of that analogy completely left unaddressed by her. Affairs are a CHOICE! Upholding fidelity in M is a CHOICE also. I've never heard of anyone self injecting cancer cells or worse, injecting their spouse with them, so they live a better life.

 

I think I'm basically struggling with the injustice of one partner cheating and escaping the myriad of pain the betrayed spouse feels. I feel myself thinking so often, it's just not fair.

 

I'd love to inject my spouse with something that could have him FEEL the pain I feel fully. I know having an RA would just add even more issues and I doubt he'd feel it like I do anyway. In fact I think he half expects me to. So he's not even going to be blindsided like I was if I did. For me? It would be the end of our M completely. If I got to that stage, it'd certainly be all over red rover. Even if I was the first person to have the A.

 

I know you're further out from me merrmeade but do you still feel any of this?

 

Lion Heart.

Really good questions, LH. Well, I DID for sure. And it's helpful that you're making me compare my NEED to bring it up then and my lack of now. Which helps me answer the question of this thread.

 

That is, before, I really had no choice. I was DROWNing in the pain of the injustice and several of the dichotomies you explain. If I did not bring it up, I was abating in the burial of me as a person and individual whose very existence was on the line. If it was okay to cheat on me, I felt that loyalty to me and the marriage to me was dispensable and, therefore, I hadn't existed as a partner in such a marriage. It meant the betrayal and dismissal of me and whatever my feelings and rights were at such a time do not matter. As if I hadn't existed. And so I couldn't abide NOT talking whenever that sinking feeling came over me.

 

Of course, he couldn't have understood such nuances. I would try to explain from a basic sense of betrayal. That he understood and always he would apologize and say something short. But mostly he said nothing. Don't know if I've explained this before but part of his pathology is another personality eccentricity (on top of the undiagnosed NPD - but agreed upon by my IC as a 'probability') labeled according to the Clifton StrengthsFinder we did with the first MC. Three of the four top 'strengths' centered on thinking and deliberating, which she said kept him pretty much always ruminating/mulling and never expressing. So that's the reason. The reality: He doesn't talk when feeling cornered. As in not at all. Add to that the NPD dread of public shaming and, well, ANY reminder of his succumbing to never-to-be-said-aloud taboos (like adultery) means that he's locked in the horror of his own actions—no matter how much the person before him is bleeding.

 

So that being our No Exit scenario, I went into IC, still bringing things up with him as needed, but gradually letting go the futile effort of confrontation. The IC was actually helping me with alternative approaches with him. It was all tremendous work on both our parts and did bring some respite, but I'd maxed out my credit card with the IC sessions and was well enough to stop.

 

So MY need is not as great. I'm good, fine, clear about what happened, about who he was and is and about what it means. Occasionally things do come up and I mention them and hold the conversation there. For example, there was something recently and he tried to squirm out with impatience. I said, "If you're not the same person you were then, why can't you talk about these things?" He immediately said, "I'm NOT the same person..." and talked a little (which is a LOT for him). So like that we go and I guess it's working little by little.

 

If I feel comfortable financially again to go back to MC, that's what I'd like to happen.

[merrmeade]

But to (actually) try to answer your question that I kind of skirted around, I think that a good R is two people working on intimacy, loyalty and marriage with their best understanding and respect for each other's limitations and vulnerabilities, as well as their own needs and boundaries. I think that's what WH and I are doing. It seems incomprehensible maybe to some people who wouldn't consider for two seconds reconciling on a record like his, but I've also gotten over caring about that either.

 

Also think that all this conversation, encouragement and shared perspectives help encourage the tiny insights and big you get as you go along.

 

Also seems to be essential to me to be okay with tiny steps as signs of progress and the occasional pat on one's own back for hanging in there.

 

The day seems to come and go without much recognition (which is a good sign in itself) that you're working on us now as much as on yourself - and that, not only doesn't make you falter, it fills you with hope.

 

Best I can do.

 

But still considering asking him about the purchase ....

[Mrs. John Adams]

I don't think it is quite that cut and dried s2b....

 

This woman has invested a lifetime in her husband...she is in the twilight of her years...when all she wanted was what she thought she had.

 

She still loves him...and she cannot see her future without him in it.

 

While the way she "deals" with the hand she has been dealt..may not be the way you or I would handle it....ultimately...she knows and does what is best for her own survival. Who am I to then question and say she is not doing it correctly.

 

Sometimes our bottom line is different than someone else's.

 

Merremeade...is extremely articulate....and level headed. She's a thinker....and she evaluates and processes each detail. She is strong and capable.....but the bottom line for her is still this one....she loves him.

For better or for worse....she loves him. She hates what he has done....but she loves the person.

 

Loin heart and merremeade and minimariah....are three women who have helped me to see and understand my husband....and I am grateful for the way they share.....and the way they love.

 

It is amazing to me....the gift my husband has given to me....and the gift these women have given their undeserving husbands.

 

Selfless...amazing love.

[merrmeade]

I don't think it is quite that cut and dried s2b....

 

This woman has invested a lifetime in her husband...she is in the twilight of her years...when all she wanted was what she thought she had.

 

She still loves him...and she cannot see her future without him in it.

 

While the way she "deals" with the hand she has been dealt..may not be the way you or I would handle it....ultimately...she knows and does what is best for her own survival. Who am I to then question and say she is not doing it correctly.

 

Sometimes our bottom line is different than someone else's.

 

Merremeade...is extremely articulate....and level headed. She's a thinker....and she evaluates and processes each detail. She is strong and capable.....but the bottom line for her is still this one....she loves him.

For better or for worse....she loves him. She hates what he has done....but she loves the person.

 

Loin heart and merremeade and minimariah....are three women who have helped me to see and understand my husband....and I am grateful for the way they share.....and the way they love.

 

It is amazing to me....the gift my husband has given to me....and the gift these women have given their undeserving husbands.

 

Selfless...amazing love.

Not so sure about the selfless or amazing part, and I'm sorry but it is definitely not merely about my love for him. It's just as much about love of truth, commitment and not giving up.

 

To credit the individual personality as deserving that much sacrifice and suffering, no, no, no ... pfffft - sorry! (not) He does NOT get that credit, hasn't earned it and never had a right to it.

 

Let me at least be clear about this: If it were simply about my love for HIM, I'd have left ages ago. It's about that (potential) but also about US, hope for the future and my own integrity.

 

This is what I must do. That much for sure is correct.

[merrmeade]

omg Mrs. JA but I do love your new name for LH - unintended I presume:

 

Loin Heart

 

Hilariously (in)appropriate for an Infidelity forum.

[merrmeade]

Your husband isn't capable of offering you his honesty and intimacy. It's not in his DNA.

 

If that's what you want then end the M and find a partner that IS capable of offering you that part of a healthy relationship.

 

You have an apple. You want a banana. The Apple is not going to turn into the banana.

 

You either accept who he IS or you reject the apple.

But I very much DO accept who he is. I don't want a banana. If he stays an apple (and for the most part he will), it's fine. I know what to do with apples or bananas either one.

 

And if I'm healthy, the relationship won't be unhealthy.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Yes and too late to edit if course! Sometimes I hate my iPad!

[Mrs. John Adams]

So merremeade...you are saying it is not the love that holds you but the commitment to the relationship?

 

Help me here I am trying to get this. I thought it was the love....

[merrmeade]

Originally Posted by Mrs. John Adams

So merremeade...you are saying it is not the love that holds you but the commitment to the relationship?

 

Help me here I am trying to get this. I thought it was the love....

 

I may be wrong (again) but I don't think it's love that's keeping them together. It's a commitment to stay no matter what the circumstances.

 

He is avoidant at best (to me it appears like the autistic spectrum) and she understands THAT about him. She also accepts that he's completely void of how she feels and doesn't DO things that COULD make her feel more loved. She is ONLY going to get that from herself.

 

 

It's a one sided 'feeling' marriage. A one sided communication effort.

 

You may be used to it Merm, but it's bound to leave you feeling alone within the marriage...

 

 

I may be wrong - but is that how it feels to you?

Yes and no. Please. I'm not saying you're wrong. Of course, it's about the love. I do love him more every day. It's about the love and not about his flawed personality. It's about both our commitment to making that—the love and the flawed personality and my often incompatible personality (my words - being generous )—better.

 

And to be a stickler for words, this IS what I actually said:

... sorry but it is definitely not merely about my love for him. It's just as much about love of truth, commitment and not giving up.

 

To credit the individual personality as deserving that much sacrifice and suffering, no, no, no ... pfffft - sorry! (not) He does NOT get that credit, hasn't earned it and never had a right to it.

 

Let me at least be clear about this: If it were simply about my love for HIM, I'd have left ages ago. It's about that (potential) but also about US, hope for the future and my own integrity.

 

This is what I must do. That much for sure is correct.

I did NOT say it is not about the love. I said it is not ONLY about that.

 

And I don't think I'm being a stickler. These nuances are important to me for my sense of self and dignity.

[nightmare01]

I've never heard a reasonable analogy regarding equivalent pain of being betrayed. I've heard: loosing a limb, the death of a child, the death of a parent, and many more. In response to those I've also heard from those BS who suffered those things, who said the pain they experienced did not compare to being betrayed for the exact reason you felt the cancer analogy was invalid. Your limb did not choose to come off your body. Your child did not choose to die. Your parent did not choose to die. And so forth.

 

I am a BH that has survived my WW having a LTA. In my experience, the pain was more than I ever imagined pain could be. I still hurt from it, but I don't let that injury rule my life.

 

Regarding answers. I was an Engineer in my career, and so I'm a detail guy, and not having all the answers drove me crazy. What I came to realize though was that none of us will ever have all the answers about the affair. This is so simply because we weren't there, we didn't feel the feelings our WS felt, we did not have the thoughts our WS thought.

 

IMO at some point both WS and BS have to come to a point of acceptance. Acceptance doesn't mean the affair is ok somehow. It doesn't mean that we don't resent it happened. I just means that we don't let it run our lives.

 

As an aside. This nonsense of a marriage being better after an affair... I've heard people claim that. The thing is that most of the people that claim a better marriage after an affair were WS. One study I saw showed that 90% of WS felt that way, but a MUCH lower percentage of BS agreed.

 

If in fact affairs made marriages better, then why don't counselors advocate everyone having them? Imagine how great our marriages could be if we all constantly cheated on each other. This POV just seems ludicrous to me.

 

But back to the main point. Our healing is up to us. We BS can't heal our WS, just as our WS can't heal us. What we each can do though is accept what happened, work to prevent a re-occurrence, and work together to make the marriage a safe place again.

 

Our marriages will never be what they were, or every be what they could have been. That's something we have to accept, and just make the best of what we have.

[BetrayedH]

Ok, I've mused on this for a few days and I suspect I'm still just going to ramble here for a few minutes so please just indulge me. I'm probably going to be all over the place.

 

One side of me certainly asks, "What good can come of this conversation?" He was clearly sexual with your SIL; the days of claiming the "heavy-petting" business are long gone. So, I'm not sure that this is a new revelation as much as a detail that may have been wisely avoided. Or, was this a lie on his part? As you know, I'm not down with liars and so I can see having a confrontation on that subject. Or do you just have a morbid curiosity about the details? Or are you trying to glean some potential insight into their/his intimacy so it can positively impact your own intimacy in the marriage? Is it just about making him squirm? Or about forcing him to "talk?" In short, why do you want to ask him about these sex toys? What do you hope to gain? I have trouble seeing the upside.

 

On a tangent subject, I can't help but wonder what motivated you to dig thru financials at 3 1/2 years post Dday. Do you still feel like you haven't gotten the truth? Was this just something that nagged at you as being left undone? Are you still trying to figure out what kind of wayward you're dealing with here? Is this a lingering trust issue? Or is this just lingering PTSD obsession?

 

I'm left trying to do a bit of a cost/benefit analysis. And so I'm curious about what you perceive to be as the potential benefit of such a conversation. And then I'd tend to want to weigh that against the costs of such a conversation. Perhaps comically, I find myself thinking that there's no cost or disadvantage to you. The only disadvantage is that it would be uncomfortable to him. And I think you can guess how much empathy I have for him in that regard. Frankly, if there's just about ANY benefit to you from having the conversation (even the simple ease of your curiosity), then I don't really care what it costs him because he should have been open to these conversations for YEARS now. In short, if this topic is bothersome to you, well, he can share in some of that discomfort since you didn't ask for any of this.

 

I would say that if you choose to have this conversation, I'd make it non-accusatory and be clear in your intent. For example, if the point is to inquire about what turned him on sexually so that you might be able to explore more between the two of you, then it doesn't need to be some horrible shaming event but more of an attempt to get him to open up about sexual desires.

 

I guess I don't have much clarity about your motivation for digging or your motivation for having the conversation. Perhaps you can enlighten me and I can provide a more focused perspective.

[merrmeade]

I've never heard a reasonable analogy regarding equivalent pain of being betrayed. I've heard: loosing a limb, the death of a child, the death of a parent, and many more. In response to those I've also heard from those BS who suffered those things, who said the pain they experienced did not compare to being betrayed for the exact reason you felt the cancer analogy was invalid. Your limb did not choose to come off your body. Your child did not choose to die. Your parent did not choose to die. And so forth.

 

I am a BH that has survived my WW having a LTA. In my experience, the pain was more than I ever imagined pain could be. I still hurt from it, but I don't let that injury rule my life.

 

Regarding answers. I was an Engineer in my career, and so I'm a detail guy, and not having all the answers drove me crazy. What I came to realize though was that none of us will ever have all the answers about the affair. This is so simply because we weren't there, we didn't feel the feelings our WS felt, we did not have the thoughts our WS thought.

 

IMO at some point both WS and BS have to come to a point of acceptance. Acceptance doesn't mean the affair is ok somehow. It doesn't mean that we don't resent it happened. I just means that we don't let it run our lives.

 

As an aside. This nonsense of a marriage being better after an affair... I've heard people claim that. The thing is that most of the people that claim a better marriage after an affair were WS. One study I saw showed that 90% of WS felt that way, but a MUCH lower percentage of BS agreed.

 

If in fact affairs made marriages better, then why don't counselors advocate everyone having them? Imagine how great our marriages could be if we all constantly cheated on each other. This POV just seems ludicrous to me.

 

But back to the main point. Our healing is up to us. We BS can't heal our WS, just as our WS can't heal us. What we each can do though is accept what happened, work to prevent a re-occurrence, and work together to make the marriage a safe place again.

 

Our marriages will never be what they were, or every be what they could have been. That's something we have to accept, and just make the best of what we have.

I pretty much agree with all of this.

[merrmeade]

Ok...

I'd like to inquire... What is it exactly that your husband says and does to show he loves you? Just being there does not count. What is it that he offers to the relationship? What beauty does he ADD into this marriage by still being in it?

This pretty much pisses me off, and I'm still deciding whether it needs answering, much of which I feel I already have and don't see what the goal of these questions are. But like I said: Still thinking about whether it would be worthwhile to anyone.

[merrmeade]

And thank you, nightmare, for your reflections. It is not easy to be in our club but helpful to know there's shared experience.

[merrmeade]

Ok, I've mused on this for a few days and I suspect I'm still just going to ramble here for a few minutes so please just indulge me. I'm probably going to be all over the place.

 

One side of me certainly asks, "What good can come of this conversation?" He was clearly sexual with your SIL; the days of claiming the "heavy-petting" business are long gone. So, I'm not sure that this is a new revelation as much as a detail that may have been wisely avoided. Or, was this a lie on his part? As you know, I'm not down with liars and so I can see having a confrontation on that subject. Or do you just have a morbid curiosity about the details? Or are you trying to glean some potential insight into their/his intimacy so it can positively impact your own intimacy in the marriage? Is it just about making him squirm? Or about forcing him to "talk?" In short, why do you want to ask him about these sex toys? What do you hope to gain? I have trouble seeing the upside.

 

On a tangent subject, I can't help but wonder what motivated you to dig thru financials at 3 1/2 years post Dday. Do you still feel like you haven't gotten the truth? Was this just something that nagged at you as being left undone? Are you still trying to figure out what kind of wayward you're dealing with here? Is this a lingering trust issue? Or is this just lingering PTSD obsession?

 

I'm left trying to do a bit of a cost/benefit analysis. And so I'm curious about what you perceive to be as the potential benefit of such a conversation. And then I'd tend to want to weigh that against the costs of such a conversation. Perhaps comically, I find myself thinking that there's no cost or disadvantage to you. The only disadvantage is that it would be uncomfortable to him. And I think you can guess how much empathy I have for him in that regard. Frankly, if there's just about ANY benefit to you from having the conversation (even the simple ease of your curiosity), then I don't really care what it costs him because he should have been open to these conversations for YEARS now. In short, if this topic is bothersome to you, well, he can share in some of that discomfort since you didn't ask for any of this.

 

I would say that if you choose to have this conversation, I'd make it non-accusatory and be clear in your intent. For example, if the point is to inquire about what turned him on sexually so that you might be able to explore more between the two of you, then it doesn't need to be some horrible shaming event but more of an attempt to get him to open up about sexual desires.

 

I guess I don't have much clarity about your motivation for digging or your motivation for having the conversation. Perhaps you can enlighten me and I can provide a more focused perspective.

As always, I am touched by your effort to provide what you feel is the most thoughtful response for my situation. I also enjoy your outrage on my behalf and general disapproval of my WH's behavior before and after D-day. It carried me a long way for a while. My brother filled that role recently in person, but my history with you BH helped me appreciate what I was getting.

 

I might revisit some of your points when I have more time but for now like the easy Q/A section. Almost as good as multiple choice. Here goes:

 

Was this a lie on his part? As you know, I'm not down with liars and so I can see having a confrontation on that subject.

I don't think

so

. It was in 2010. D-day was 5/31/2012. It really looks to me like it was purchased and then returned a month later. What I actually think - knowing him, her - is that he had some 'toys' sent to her, and she returned them.

Or do you just have a morbid curiosity about the details?

Somewhat.

Or are you trying to glean some potential insight into their/his intimacy so it can positively impact your own intimacy in the marriage?

Yuck, no. The triggers and mind movies I had from what I did know was bad enough.

Is it just about making him squirm?

Not really. I think it would set us back.

Or about forcing him to "talk?"

No, I'd do something else for that.

In short, why do you want to ask him about these sex toys?

I don't! It will take a lot to explain why I was digging yet again - something I can't explain that well to myself.

What do you hope to gain?

Initially: whether they used them. But now I think the return negates that.

I have trouble seeing the upside.

Me too.

[merrmeade]

Oh wow, I'm sorry... It wasn't my intention to upset you. I just wanted an idea of what the marriage looks like... Pluses and minuses within the union.

 

Again, wasn't meant to upset you.

Ok well, thanks for the concern, but I will explain why it was annoying (not upsetting). You're creating your own agenda and ignoring all the incredible input, thought and development that people have already invested in this thread. I didn't ask about my marriage here and, in fact, said I didn't care what anyone thinks about my choice to be in it. I asked about a specific event and set of related actions. Discussion that followed had to do with issues of reconciliation after infidelity and concerns that come up.

[road]

The problem as a BH I never got to even know who the OM was. Thirty plus years of very little trickle truth has left me still needing to know everything.

[merrmeade]

The problem as a BH I never got to even know who the OM was. Thirty plus years of very little trickle truth has left me still needing to know everything.

wow that's hard. But even if we thought we knew them? Obviously we didnt.