The Man Going His Own Way

October 18, 2015

I see archaic laws that view women as only being the sole caregiver in every household as being the problem. The issue is that it gives preference to women financially and in terms of time with children over their husbands/fathers. I would hope that feminists are astute enough to realize that and actively work to equalize laws in all states.

Can you give me some specific examples of the "archaic laws" you are talking about that we are supposed to be actively working to change??

:confused: That would help me to understand what you are trying to get across. Also before your own divorce, what were the child rearing arrangements in your home?? if you don't mind me asking.

:)

One thing I think I can contribute here is, if you look at the MGTOW sites there is nonstop harping about women, wives specifically, making a livelihood out of boobs and vaginas. That is seems to imply that the women don't have jobs right? They are depending on the husband's support and that's one of the reasons the guys are mad right? Anyway even if she did have boobs and a vagina and no "real job" can you blame a judge for getting the impression that the wife may have been the main child caregiver in the household?? Maybe it is not all as biased as you might think, maybe there is some sense to these decisions in many cases??? I am not denying that the bias does exist, some people just can't believe that a dad can be the primary caregiver in a family while the wife is the main money earner, or that they share the money earning and child care exactly 50/50 but I know it sure does happen!!

October 18, 2015

Their message regarding fathers is clear: women need to expect their male partners to be equal parents! Only when men are expected to do their fair share as involved parents (fair share of dr. appts, carpool lines, taking days off for sick kids, parent-teacher conferences, etc) can women truly have success in the workplace.

ALSO only then should a dad be completely justified in crying "I was screwed over" when he doesn't get 50/50 or better in the custody hearings.

:( Look guys I know SOME of you really did get screwed over, but I also KNOW that the majority of the complainers did not actually take on exactly 50% OR MORE of the child rearing responsibilities that xxoo specifically laid out above DURING THE MARRIAGE. If one person did the majority of the child raising in the family home, then it is fair that that person get the majority of the custody when there is a divorce and that does NOT depend on the parent's gender. It just so happens that culturally we still expect moms to do more parenting and that seems to be OK with alot of us - until it is reflected in a divorce court I guess.

October 18, 2015

What is even funnier is that the men pay for the wedding too.

???? Are you talking about the bride's father? That is who traditionally pays for a wedding. Well, her PARENTS usually. I don't know of any married couples where the husband paid for the wedding do you?? Most of us when we are grown ups pay for our own weddings AS A COUPLE, in my group of friends, that is what we're doing.

Yes women do get passes in life more then men do some just don't realize it. Women are not held responsible for many things they can do. I'm pretty sure I am not making these things up.

Examples please.

October 18, 2015

???? Are you talking about the bride's father? That is who traditionally pays for a wedding. Well, her PARENTS usually. I don't know of any married couples where the husband paid for the wedding do you?? Most of us when we are grown ups pay for our own weddings AS A COUPLE, in my group of friends, that is what we're doing.

Examples please.

I think if anything women have it harder trying to balance family and work

October 18, 2015

Then you are the good one of the bunch

I know there's great women and marriages out there, and, divorces that ended on a more leveled note. I was speaking of the ones that were not good.
You are right with the wedding traditions. I should've meant, typically, because typically the guy does pay for the ring.

When I got divorced, we didn't even hire a lawyer. I always made more than him, but not much. We split just about everything 50/50. I say 'almost'. He was afraid I would take his grandmothers inheritance money, but I said no. That was his money from his family. I offered to give the ring back, but he declined.

I didn't want a goddamn thing from him. There were a few paranoid people in his family afraid I was going to take him to the cleaners. I told him to tell them to go f*ck themselves. I don't miss his family. Old money they were, and mean. I'd rather be homeless than take a dime from those a holes. For all their money, I don't recall them ever doing one day of community service or giving to charity.

Be careful... Or you may end up like them. Plenty of money, but stingy in spirit.

I still have the diamonds he gave me. Tried to give them back. They sit in a drawer now. Someday I will sell them. Give the proceeds to charity. Haven't decided which one. Probably one he would hate, lol.

October 18, 2015

From my experience, my parent's divorce was done fairly and between them without even a mediator. Neither has complained about the arrangement.

My divorce was done by us without even a mediator, no complaint by anyone and actually we just walked away with an even distribution of debt, etc. In fact, to sell the house we had, that had been underwater, I put up almost 60K to renovate and asked to have any proceeds which ended up being a whopping 5K. I did that because while married he okay assuming debt and us paying for it that were tied to my horses so I felt it was only fair as he didn't have the liquid cash to do anything about the house and I did.

My husband's divorce was done with lawyers but that was it. He was very generous in but it was for the betterment of the kids. His ex only worked part time so her lifetime income was going to always be extremely capped. So he pays child support longer than most, we pay college, and he pays alimony for half of their years married.

But it isn't a major issue because I know my earning potential is far greater than both my ex and his ex, I earn a bit more than my husband, significantly if you look at take home pay, and combined we are in the top 5%. I have followed my dad's advice on giving to the ex when you have kids and know that most likely the kids would have to help financially so if I can it makes everyone happier/life easier.

While my husband expects to be done paying his ex, and doesn't want to engage with her in any talks afterwards, we have an arrangement that I am free to do so if I so choose but to leave him out of it. To be honest I see her as an adult dependent and expect some financial support for the years to come. I am okay with that. I know I work hard, and while I can do it, I expect to do so.

As a couple they decided she would raise the kids, be home more. And even though he had pushed her to work full time he tacitly agreed to her staying home by not making it a hill to die on. So that comes with, at least, financial responsibilities.

Honestly I couldn't imagine seeing it any other way. Even when parted, when you have kids and they are tied to you through them, I just view it as some level of lifelong involvement/commitment. You don't have to like them but there is still a family unit that is there that may need some maintaining.

I don't know, to each their own. I just know "my" way leaves me happy and at peace. It seems like others are just far more bitter and resenting.

October 18, 2015

And for those that hate the divorce laws then make sure you are going after career minded women and have clear expectations that may include you shouldering a bigger piece of the child rearing pie than traditionally done.

As a woman I would not pull back from my career, I plan to be at the C suite level in the next 5-10 years and while a "sabbatical" sounds nice at times I could never stay at home and not have my career.

But there are not a lot of men who could date/marry a woman like me. There would need to be an understanding of the precedence my position entails, the time and travel expected, and it being prioritized due to that. There is also a comfort level of me being a high income earner and making more than most men. Trust me when I say this does not sit well with a lot of guys. There is a lot of ego tied to income and having a wife make more can rub them the wrong way.

Our arrangement is to try and get to the point to where we are on just my income, which will require getting all debt paid off, the college tuition for the kids (we will have multiple in school at the same time), and then my husband is very wanting to be a stay at home which I support. He has worked hard his whole life and being able to have the freedom to be so involved with our baby's life is a once in a lifetime opportunity for him. I don't see him doing it forever and it would move into him starting his own business, but I would love to give that to him. Also knowing the ramifications of him stepping off the work path and what I would need to do to supplement/make up to him because of it.

October 19, 2015

Can you give me some specific examples of the "archaic laws" you are talking about that we are supposed to be actively working to change?? :confused: That would help me to understand what you are trying to get across. Also before your own divorce, what were the child rearing arrangements in your home?? if you don't mind me asking. :)

One thing I think I can contribute here is, if you look at the MGTOW sites there is nonstop harping about women, wives specifically, making a livelihood out of boobs and vaginas. That is seems to imply that the women don't have jobs right? They are depending on the husband's support and that's one of the reasons the guys are mad right? Anyway even if she did have boobs and a vagina and no "real job" can you blame a judge for getting the impression that the wife may have been the main child caregiver in the household?? Maybe it is not all as biased as you might think, maybe there is some sense to these decisions in many cases??? I am not denying that the bias does exist, some people just can't believe that a dad can be the primary caregiver in a family while the wife is the main money earner, or that they share the money earning and child care exactly 50/50 but I know it sure does happen!!

It is true, on a lot of MGTOW websites there is a lot of harping on women. I'm not sure if you read the entire thread, but a few pages back I said that while I agree with the MGTOW lifestyle, and even see many benefits of living that way personally, they have a defeatist attitude and spend a disproportionate amount of their time complaining instead of living their life.

I even brought that point up to the men on the main MGTOW website, and was subsequently driven off. They didn't want to hear it.

At the end of the day, I have no interest in attempting to justify my choices with anyone. The OP started a thread asking questions about MGTOW. I replied and shared my experiences with him about MGTOW, both the good and the bad. What he does with that information is up to him.

I respect dissenting opinions, even if I disagree with them. I have my perceptions based on my experience, and I make decisions accordingly. We can argue semantics about marriage and divorce all day; the bottom line is it doesn't pass my cost-benefit analysis. There's no misogyny in that. It doesn't mean I "hate women" or some other such nonsense. What it does mean is that it's a social convention in which I choose to not participate because I don't see any benefits from it to offset the risks involved. If people choose to see misogyny in there, that's choice they're making by directly misinterpreting what is being said in order to twist it into a worldview they hold, and not the intent in which it was given.

And this thread is a great example of how feminism feels threatened when men talk about gender roles and issues. Feminism has controlled the narrative for decades. Even in a thread about MGTOW, feminists feel compelled to come here to post and argue in order to keep the narrative focused on them instead of us.

Truthfully, I don't care what issues you (general you, not specific you) face any more than you care about ours, which is none. I'm no longer interested in your narrative. I have no wish to silence it; freedom of speech is a right we all have, including feminists. But your right to say what you want does not become an obligation for me to listen.

What could compel me to listen is a non-shaming, non-argumentative, and non-judgmental form of debate and discourse. But I don't see a lot of that, from both feminists and the mainstream MGTOW movement.

Which does us all a disservice.

October 20, 2015

Well said man!

October 20, 2015

I met many men who actually support women's rights and welfare of women. I do too. I guess I'll post some of the experiences and see how you deal to it.

October 20, 2015

OP, have a great journey going on your own way and please try not to get sidetracked on hating or blaming others for your life because it is just a useless bunch of negative energy, women don't care about you men who choose to live without us ... because we wouldn't eve even know you exist if it weren't for random stuff on the Internets like this! We have men in our lives to care about and they actually LIKE and even LOVE us!!! Go figure huh!! I think alot of us get offended by gross misogyny but all we have to do is avoid looking at those lame websites and we're good. We're sure not threatened though! Anyway go your own way in peace brother! :bunny:

October 20, 2015

I rarely blame others for decision I made. In my life. Just because I took a liking to a website on the internet doesn't mean I don't care for women. The thread in itself exudes negative energy. Anyone looking for positive energy need not click the thread. The websites can be lame but the movements aren't. When men speak on the faults of women it isn't accepted upon as well as women speaking on the faults of men.

Maybe some younger men can take some advice from this. The movement can help just like a woman's movment can help.

October 20, 2015

If my current relationship doesn't work out, I will be riding off into the sunset on my Harley and not looking back. I think I'm about through with women and dating. Sometimes you gotta just leave it all behind and do your own thing.

October 20, 2015

C'mon man! I used the "I Don't Need A Man" thing as a response to a reply stating that all the guys in the MGHOW were "butthurt" individuals. So I said the same can be applied to feminism: because while you are saying feminism presents a noble cause of the female welfare, it is not always used that way. It is very easy to overlook the welfare of a male, because we are male, we aren't allowed to have those problems I suppose. We are supposed to suck it up, grow a pair, and move on without complaining or having any other suggestion. Feminism was made the same way: women were not satisfied with being treated unequally, they whined, complained, and made a movement. It didn't come out of nowhere.

I can say, feminists are anti-male. But I don't view it that way because I know all feminists are not like that. I actually support the movement. I try to look at both sides of the gender ordeals. But when you mention MRA or MGHOW, automatically it's anti-feminism. It can never be males in there just for the sole purpose of male welfare or well-being, right?

The bit in bolded is extremely irritating and revealing - it suggests to me that you're not interested in a rational discussion of points, but in creating strawmen. Nobody said this. But this is where that whole "butthurt" idea gets started - these movements NEED men to think that women say/believe this stuff. That's how they get followers. It's the sort of statement you'll see repeated over and over in those website echo-chambers. Nothing is so motivating as self-righteous anger -- all you need is a fake outrageous statement and a convenient boogeyman to pin it on, and hey presto! A movement. See: Tea Party.

This is what the MGTOW and MRA movements are largely about - creating strawmen out of feminists to create a false narrative and to drum up rabid supporters among the angry, rather than listening to those -- such as xxoo listed upthread -- who are actually discussing modern feminism and would be allies rather than enemies. But MGTOW and MRA activists DO NOT want these allies; they want them to be bugbears, as I said. Nothing you're typing here disabuses me of that notion. I see no real understanding of historical or present environment in which feminism exists - just a lot of rhetoric parroted from angry blogs that paint all feminists with the most unappealing brush. I have spent a great deal of time reading on these sites, to try to understand. But I don't and I never will, and I've come to the conclusion that it's a fruitless exercise.

And no, you are incorrect when you suggest that women get more perks in modern society than men. I leave you with the thousands of history books in the world to consult on that one. You cannot be serious. As I said before, there are indeed inequities that can be rationally addressed. But this narrative that women are somehow privileged in general over men is completely unsupported.

As I also said upthread, I would be happy to support a movement that would seek to address these inequities without suggesting that women are useless fun bags. Have yet to see that exist. MGTOW isn't it. Feel free to create one. I think a lot of feminists would actually be supportive of something that's pro-equal rights and yet not insulting of them. One can dream.

In the meantime, I see no reason to play along and pretend this movement isn't anti-women. Just gonna have to call a spade a spade here.

Edited October 20, 2015 by serial muse

October 20, 2015

The bit in bolded is extremely irritating and revealing - it suggests to me that you're not interested in a rational discussion of points, but in creating strawmen. Nobody said this. But this is where that whole "butthurt" idea gets started - these movements NEED men to think that women say/believe this stuff. That's how they get followers. It's the sort of statement you'll see repeated over and over in those website echo-chambers. Nothing is so motivating as self-righteous anger -- all you need is a fake outrageous statement and a convenient boogeyman to pin it on, and hey presto! A movement. See: Tea Party.

This is what the MGTOW and MRA movements are largely about - creating strawmen out of feminists to create a false narrative and to drum up rabid supporters among the angry, rather than listening to those -- such as xxoo listed upthread -- who are actually discussing modern feminism and would be allies rather than enemies. But MGTOW and MRA activists DO NOT want these allies; they want them to be bugbears, as I said. Nothing you're typing here disabuses me of that notion. I see no real understanding of historical or present environment in which feminism exists - just a lot of rhetoric parroted from angry blogs that paint all feminists with the most unappealing brush. I have spent a great deal of time reading on these sites, to try to understand. But I don't and I never will, and I've come to the conclusion that it's a fruitless exercise.

And no, you are incorrect when you suggest that women get more perks in modern society than men. I leave you with the thousands of history books in the world to consult on that one. You cannot be serious. As I said before, there are indeed inequities that can be rationally addressed. But this narrative that women are somehow privileged in general over men is completely unsupported.

As I also said upthread, I would be happy to support a movement that would seek to address these inequities without suggesting that women are useless fun bags. Have yet to see that exist. MGTOW isn't it. Feel free to create one. I think a lot of feminists would actually be supportive of something that's pro-equal rights and yet not insulting of them. One can dream.

In the meantime, I see no reason to play along and pretend this movement isn't anti-women. Just gonna have to call a spade a spade here.

All I asked is if the same can be applied to the feminist movement. Some how, it was justified as not being the same.

October 20, 2015

All I asked is if the same can be applied to the feminist movement. Some how, it was justified as not being the same.

This is largely due to the inherent minimization of men's problems. "Sure, men have problems, but they will never be as big as women's problems." This is the constant narrative in threads such as these, which is the main impetus for why MGTOW and MRA's don't seek feminists as allies. They don't want anything to do with our movement, unless we sign the dotted line under the "women's problems will always trump men's" clause.

The majority of us aren't willing to do that. Why should we?

Serial, your criteria for a "movement" can easily apply to the feminist movement. Unfortunately, it's human nature to say "all movements are bad...except my own."

Feminism has great PR. They have created a social paradigm that says "feminism = social justice". But that social justice hasn't trickled down to everybody yet. And just like the flawed Republican philosophy, I don't think it ever will. Why? See above.

And this thread is NOT about feminism. It's about men going their own way. I respectfully request we keep the thread on topic about that. If we want to discuss feminism, someone can create new thread.

October 20, 2015

What could compel me to listen is a non-shaming, non-argumentative, and non-judgmental form of debate and discourse. But I don't see a lot of that, from both feminists and the mainstream MGTOW movement.
.

Have you read about the shared earning/shared parenting movement?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_earning/shared_parenting_marriage

October 20, 2015

I would bet a good portion of feminists would be reluctant to see any man as any ally or a friend.

October 20, 2015

It's not so much saying you don't want to date, it's more like taking a "if it happens it happens" mindset.

October 20, 2015

I would bet a good portion of feminists would be reluctant to see any man as any ally or a friend.

Those are WGTOW. Please don't judge the rest us by the fringe group

October 20, 2015

This is largely due to the inherent minimization of men's problems. "Sure, men have problems, but they will never be as big as women's problems."

You have a point here. I am never impressed with those "who has it hardest" contests because it reminds me of elementary school.

October 20, 2015

Those are WGTOW. Please don't judge the rest us by the fringe group

I know there are feminists who genuinely want gender equality but when I hear that stuff about drinkiing delicious male tears I admit I turn a deaf ear to the whole things which I admit is unfair but it's also unfair to use MGTOW to smear men who are just looking our for their own issues.

October 20, 2015

I recall, around 25 years ago, running into my first large barrier for a man going his own way when attempting to adopt as a single man. At that time, it was essentially impossible, even with a good income, long community standing and a lawyer. At that time, it was an avenue of parenthood denied to men, in general, and men of average citizenship in particular. I'd be interested to see if that has changed. It was that reality, and casting a wider net overseas for adoption prospects, which ironically found me looking at the women overseas as well for relationships. Where adoption was a decided problem, getting a K1 and having a baby with a foreign national woman was not a problem at all, in general. Had I been able to adopt locally, meaning within the US, I'd probably have never looked overseas for anything at all, rather happily gone my way single parenting as has become common over the decades, generally more so for women than men. Have things changed? IDK. Such are the challenges of rubbing up against society's conventions. I didn't have the deep pockets to mount an effective social and legal fight so moved on to other things.

October 20, 2015

You have a point here. I am never impressed with those "who has it hardest" contests because it reminds me of elementary school.

Thank you, Autumn. I feel the same way. I'm not out to compete with women and/or feminists about who is worse off. My only point is, "As a man, these are the obstacles I face in today's society. What can be done to fix them, and how can I minimize any risk associated with those obstacles?"

I just don't see any misogyny in that attitude. Neither do I see any belittling of women's problems either. All I would like to see is men's problems be given equal weight; no more, no less.

I see MGTOW providing a greater chance of success at that than I do feminism.

October 20, 2015

I know there are feminists who genuinely want gender equality but when I hear that stuff about drinkiing delicious male tears I admit I turn a deaf ear to the whole things which I admit is unfair but it's also unfair to use MGTOW to smear men who are just looking our for their own issues.

Right! I totally would never think that MGTOW represents men. I have too much respect for men for that. Love men!

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