Rejected Rosebud Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Do you think men would be happier without women? I'm guessing your answer is "yes" but I don't want to assume. If women are paid generously to stay in their place, act exactly the way a man would like, and never get old, grouchy or fat, I'm sure that those kinds of men would be fine with women!! Srsly though I looked at those sites and I am appalled!!! My parents grew up in the 60s and there was a huge movement that threw all the preconceived notions from the 50s out!!! Yes they could CHOOSE to follow those paradigms from the past but there were whole new frontiers opening up!!! This included "women's lib" (:rolleyes: really that was/is a part of "EQUAL RIGHTS"!!!!!!) anyway everybody was invited to "drop out" of mainstream society if they wanted to!!! All new freedoms, don't get married, don't go corporate, don't feel you have to pay to support a whole family, don't wear undergarments to make your figure look prettier, travel with a backpack instead of finishing university, whatever!!!! What happened, these guys seem unaware that they've had EVERY choice all along and if they didn't realize this until now that is not the fault of any woman!!!?? :confused: Be brave and live your life true to yourself that is what I think all of us need to do!! But if you don't or can't that is not because women (or men) are bad and need to be "taught a lesson" is it??:confused: 2
Author WonderKid Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 We had a bunch of angry and unhappy men prior to the last 40 years. Just then they got to beat their wives and kids and/or leave them in the dust with no financial recourse. Good times. And what evidence is there no interest in male suicide rates and gun violence. I am a part of numerous gun control groups and suicide is a major focal point. So not sure where you are getting your information. It is also among the rich and wealthier men too I've heard
Rejected Rosebud Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Marriage is easy for you, but as statistics show in America, it was not easy for everyone. You are very fortunate, and I hope you both stay that way. I am not married either (June!! :love:) but I am not expecting it to be "easy," one thing for sure that I know is that if it doesn't work out it won't be because of "women's lib" or because women or men are bad or because society hurts women or men!!! It will be because of us. 2
carhill Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Part of the value of autonomy and free will is that we each choose who we associate with and which precepts we value in life. Which way do you want to go? You're completely in charge of that. No one can make you do anything you don't want to do. Do groups exert social pressure to bend you to their will? Yep! Still, in the end, you choose. If you enjoy the time you spend with your acquaintances who are happily married, do that. If with the other males, do that. You can enjoy interactions with a wide variety of people and still go your own way. In fact, IMO that's a valuable life exercise in establishing a clear identity and personal boundaries. 2
Author WonderKid Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 If you enjoy the time you spend with your acquaintances who are happily married, do that. If with the other males, do that. You can enjoy interactions with a wide variety of people and still go your own way. In fact, IMO that's a valuable life exercise in establishing a clear identity and personal boundaries. I agree. Throwing all the misogynist vibes aside, I did take in many of what the site was offering. It just shows you things to look out for.
SammySammy Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Two Wolves A Cherokee Parable A Cherokee elder was teaching his children about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to them. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.” The grandchildren thought about it and after a minute one of them asked, “Which wolf will win?” The elder simply replied, “The one you feed.” Carefully choose which wolf you feed. Many of us create self-fulfilling prophecies for ourselves. It's not surprising that those who create negative prophecies live miserable lives. That's what is supposed to happen. And why I avoid those people like the plague. 6
sambolini Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 I view MGTOW as a way for a man to define and find value in himself without female validation. In the past, men used to derive their sense of identity and self-worth through their marriage and children. You were a "real man" if you had a house, wife, kids, etc. MGTOW essentially says that is no longer viable option for men in today's society, and that there are many other avenues for a man to create his identity and establish his internal sense of worth. I will personally never get married again. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I make far more money as a bachelor, I have far more free time, and I'm a much better father. I can objectively look back and say my life now is better in every way than it was when I was married. I readily admit a huge portion of that is who I chose to marry. But as long as the possibility exists of me being financially eviscerated in divorce a second time, marriage will permanently be a non-option for me. No female is worth my assets, my home, and the very livelihood I need to survive. Where the MGTOW men lose me is their defeatist attitude. They believe that nothing can change, and so there's no reason to ever try. I have no respect for a perpetual victim mentality (which is also why I can't identify with third-wave feminism). I find the MGTOW way of life to be a very satisfying one. Their attitude, however, is something I reject. 2
Author WonderKid Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 I view MGTOW as a way for a man to define and find value in himself without female validation. In the past, men used to derive their sense of identity and self-worth through their marriage and children. You were a "real man" if you had a house, wife, kids, etc. MGTOW essentially says that is no longer viable option for men in today's society, and that there are many other avenues for a man to create his identity and establish his internal sense of worth. I will personally never get married again. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I make far more money as a bachelor, I have far more free time, and I'm a much better father. I can objectively look back and say my life now is better in every way than it was when I was married. I readily admit a huge portion of that is who I chose to marry. But as long as the possibility exists of me being financially eviscerated in divorce a second time, marriage will permanently be a non-option for me. No female is worth my assets, my home, and the very livelihood I need to survive. Where the MGTOW men lose me is their defeatist attitude. They believe that nothing can change, and so there's no reason to ever try. I have no respect for a perpetual victim mentality (which is also why I can't identify with third-wave feminism). I find the MGTOW way of life to be a very satisfying one. Their attitude, however, is something I reject. You're entire reply was spot on my friend. That's how I was looking at it. I don't much agree with the attitude; some rage was understandable but others unnecessary. Because if nothing can change then it's no sense in going your own way. 1
Author WonderKid Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 Two Wolves A Cherokee Parable A Cherokee elder was teaching his children about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to them. “It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.” The grandchildren thought about it and after a minute one of them asked, “Which wolf will win?” The elder simply replied, “The one you feed.” Carefully choose which wolf you feed. Many of us create self-fulfilling prophecies for ourselves. It's not surprising that those who create negative prophecies live miserable lives. That's what is supposed to happen. And why I avoid those people like the plague. I agree with negative prophecies. But what about experiences? Not all experiences are meant to be positive. There are bad ones. Are not they the right to be shared? Testified? And heard?
carhill Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Heh, negative experiences are why we have laws and there's a substantial portion of our society totally focused on negative experiences and addressing them. Do those negative experiences have to rule us? Nope, we choose. 3
lollipopspot Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 I think people who actually "go their own way" just do it. They don't make swansongs and websites and complain about it. Otherwise I just see them as fakers who don't really WANT to "go their own way" but are hoping that someone pulls them back into the fold that they left. I don't see this as an individualistic movement at all, but a bunch of butthurt people storming off with their toys. 6
Author WonderKid Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 Yes we choose but sometimes the negative comes naturally, in many forms that we have no control over. That's like me saying I chose for someone to cheat on me. I didn't choose her action, she chose it, and it was a bad experience for me. It came out of nowhere. If I choose to stay with her, and she does it again, then it is on myself.
Author WonderKid Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 I think people who actually "go their own way" just do it. They don't make swansongs and websites and complain about it. Otherwise I just see them as fakers who don't really WANT to "go their own way" but are hoping that someone pulls them back into the fold that they left. I don't see this as an individualistic movement at all, but a bunch of butthurt people storming off with their toys. So I assume this can be applied to feminism as well? 1
sambolini Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 You're entire reply was spot on my friend. That's how I was looking at it. I don't much agree with the attitude; some rage was understandable but others unnecessary. Because if nothing can change then it's no sense in going your own way. I hypothesize that a good portion of MGTOW men do it as a political statement, not because they are actually seeking a better life from it. They can make that choice if they want, but their motivations are skewed. A true MGHOW doesn't need to announce to the world that he's a MGHOW. He just does it, because it makes him happy and it gives his life more meaning than the alternative. Broadcasting it to the world makes it a political statement. If you delve deeper, they truly believe that society will crumble as a result of them going their own way. I think that's a bit sensational and over the top. I don't see it as a means to affect social change. I see it as a way for a man to approach life for himself, nothing more. A tenet of MGTOW is non-activism. I wholeheartedly disagree with that. Change happens because people drive it with actions. To be fair, non-participation can affect change as well, it's just much, much slower. 1
sambolini Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 I think people who actually "go their own way" just do it. They don't make swansongs and websites and complain about it. Otherwise I just see them as fakers who don't really WANT to "go their own way" but are hoping that someone pulls them back into the fold that they left. I don't see this as an individualistic movement at all, but a bunch of butthurt people storming off with their toys. Yes and no. I don't see an issue with like-minded people making websites to share their experiences and engage in discourse. Free speech is, after all, a basic right. Where I question their choice is their motivation for making said choice. Is it a political reason, or a personal one? 1
serial muse Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Sure, but I was cheated on by my exH and I don't choose to let that define me. Many women are also damaged by marriage, but this movement seems to suggest that the benefits are all of the women's side, and the detriments all on the men's. It's hard to take that point of view seriously; it ignores an awful lot of human experience and history. I can't really find in me any respect for that point of view. And I guess that in a larger sense that's what seems fake about MGTOW to me - I can understand the idea of checking out of romantic relationships, and feeling that you're happier alone. Cool beans, you do you. But so much of that group seems to be about punishing women rather than avoiding relationships. They aren't happily alone - they're telling women that they're happily alone. These men are still defining themselves by women. How is focusing on anger toward women or feminism equal to a man defining himself in peace? It carries within it the seeds of its own demise. 6
Author WonderKid Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 I hypothesize that a good portion of MGTOW men do it as a political statement, not because they are actually seeking a better life from it. They can make that choice if they want, but their motivations are skewed. A true MGHOW doesn't need to announce to the world that he's a MGHOW. He just does it, because it makes him happy and it gives his life more meaning than the alternative. Broadcasting it to the world makes it a political statement. If you delve deeper, they truly believe that society will crumble as a result of them going their own way. I think that's a bit sensational and over the top. I don't see it as a means to affect social change. I see it as a way for a man to approach life for himself, nothing more. A tenet of MGTOW is non-activism. I wholeheartedly disagree with that. Change happens because people drive it with actions. To be fair, non-participation can affect change as well, it's just much, much slower. I've seen a lot of guys # it in their statuses and whatnot. And it would piss some women off. But I wondered what it was. It was a long time ago. Around last week is when I investigated. I've been going my own way, before the MGHOW. But when I saw the sites I was intrigued. I agree. It is something that need not be broadcasted, but shown by how you carry yourself
sambolini Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 Sure, but I was cheated on by my exH and I don't choose to let that define me. Many women are also damaged by marriage, but this movement seems to suggest that the benefits are all of the women's side, and the detriments all on the men's. It's hard to take that point of view seriously; it ignores an awful lot of human experience and history. I can't really find in me any respect for that point of view. And I guess that in a larger sense that's what seems fake about MGTOW to me - I can understand the idea of checking out of romantic relationships, and feeling that you're happier alone. Cool beans, you do you. But so much of that group seems to be about punishing women rather than avoiding relationships. They aren't happily alone - they're telling women that they're happily alone. These men are still defining themselves by women. How is focusing on anger toward women or feminism equal to a man defining himself in peace? It carries within it the seeds of its own demise. The bolded is very true. I actually went to the main MGTOW website, and addressed this very issue with them. And I was subsequently driven off. On the flip side, I view much of modern feminism as "punishing men" for what happened in the past. There are a lot more parallels between the two movements than I think many third-wavers would like to admit. But that's a topic for another thread. 2
lollipopspot Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 So I assume this can be applied to feminism as well? Uh, what? No, that's not the definition of feminism. It's not defined as "women going their own way." Read up. 1
sambolini Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 I've seen a lot of guys # it in their statuses and whatnot. And it would piss some women off. But I wondered what it was. It was a long time ago. Around last week is when I investigated. I've been going my own way, before the MGHOW. But when I saw the sites I was intrigued. I agree. It is something that need not be broadcasted, but shown by how you carry yourself I think the main issue why it irritates some women is because feminism drives all gender-based social discourse. If men begin to publicly address their social grievances, that threatens the monopoly feminism has on all gender-based social and political debate. Thus, major pushback and social shaming then occurs. MGTOW is not MRA. They are two totally different things. I find a balance between the two is the sanest course of action. 1
Got it Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 So why the need to define one's self by any movement? Why not just do one's life how best feels applicable and not try and cookie cut it into some label or another. I could care less if someone doesn't want to marry, stand on their head or only wear the color red. As long as it isn't breaking laws or oppressing others march to the beat of one's own drum. Whatever. It's just weird especially when a lot of the complaints and "issues" are truly trumped up. 3
Author WonderKid Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 Uh, what? No, that's not the definition of feminism. It's not defined as "women going their own way." Read up. Lol oh c'mon you know what you meant and what I meant. Just because it isn't the definition, feminism has some same values as MGHOW. It can be labeled IDNAM (I Don't Need A Man) basically
Author WonderKid Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 Sure, but I was cheated on by my exH and I don't choose to let that define me. Many women are also damaged by marriage, but this movement seems to suggest that the benefits are all of the women's side, and the detriments all on the men's. It's hard to take that point of view seriously; it ignores an awful lot of human experience and history. I can't really find in me any respect for that point of view. And I guess that in a larger sense that's what seems fake about MGTOW to me - I can understand the idea of checking out of romantic relationships, and feeling that you're happier alone. Cool beans, you do you. But so much of that group seems to be about punishing women rather than avoiding relationships. They aren't happily alone - they're telling women that they're happily alone. These men are still defining themselves by women. How is focusing on anger toward women or feminism equal to a man defining himself in peace? It carries within it the seeds of its own demise. I mean, many times the benefits are on the women's side. They get more in a divorce than a man; and the scary thing is if she even commits infidelity she still gets it it in many cases. Not saying women cannot be victims I'm not excluding that.
sambolini Posted October 16, 2015 Posted October 16, 2015 So why the need to define one's self by any movement? Why not just do one's life how best feels applicable and not try and cookie cut it into some label or another. I could care less if someone doesn't want to marry, stand on their head or only wear the color red. As long as it isn't breaking laws or oppressing others march to the beat of one's own drum. Whatever. It's just weird especially when a lot of the complaints and "issues" are truly trumped up. The very same argument applies for feminism. Why the need to define oneself by that movement? Why not just live your life without that label? Your entire post could literally apply towards feminism as well. I'm not suggesting you're a feminist...I truly don't know. The crux of it is this: if a woman can label herself a feminist, then I can label myself a MGHOW. Double standards need not apply. 1
Author WonderKid Posted October 16, 2015 Author Posted October 16, 2015 So why the need to define one's self by any movement? Why not just do one's life how best feels applicable and not try and cookie cut it into some label or another. I could care less if someone doesn't want to marry, stand on their head or only wear the color red. As long as it isn't breaking laws or oppressing others march to the beat of one's own drum. Whatever. It's just weird especially when a lot of the complaints and "issues" are truly trumped up. Sometimes it is what's best for that individual at that moment in their lives I suppose.
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