lindya Posted May 20, 2005 Posted May 20, 2005 The Other Woman-v-The Wife is a subject area that provokes strong judgements and emotions. I think it would be great if we could have a bit more insightful debate as to why women areso inclined to savage eachother in this situation and let the cheater off easy. Is it just the competitive instinct at work? Do some of us take an unrealistic view of "the sisterhood" that means we expect women we hardly know to care more about our relationships/family lives than the men who are actively involved with us seem to? How do men who have been "cuckolded" (for want of a better word) feel? Women cheat on their husbands too. Men post on Loveshack. Why do we never see "Other Men versus Husbands" threads? Or is the philosophy always "cherchez la femme?"
Owl Posted May 20, 2005 Posted May 20, 2005 Well, I'm a guy who's been 'cuckholded'...what's your question? I think the reason this forum is always about the OW is because most of the time, the OM isn't the kind of person who's going to look for support from someone else to get over/past/deal with his part of the situation.
tiki Posted May 20, 2005 Posted May 20, 2005 And usually the OM isn't waiting for the woman to leave her family/kids. And it's rare that you see some man here moping waiting for that 'woman of their dreams'. It's us dumbass women that wait. And wait. And wait. Then after years of wasted lives, we realize - man, it's never going to happen! Then we decide to get a real life, yes, a REAL one. With a real relationship. Then it can progress naturally, like a REAL relationship. Affairs aren't real-life. Relationships are real-life. Quit fooling yourselves. I've been there, I did it for four frickin years people. GET A LIFE!!! I'd choose a relationship any day over an affair.
pragmatic Posted May 20, 2005 Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by Owl most of the time, the OM isn't the kind of person who's going to look for support from someone else to get over/past/deal with his part of the situation. I agree with Owl. Most men tend to prefer sorting through emotional trauma on their own, especially the self-inflicted pain that an OM might suffer. I would add that men in general, even the ones who don't adhere to it, understand that there is a "code of conduct" of sorts that stigmatizes consorting with another man's wife. In some societies it seems to be less taboo (read the Kama Sutra, for instance), but in the western world it is definitely a matter of honor in addition to the moral considerations. Most men that would chase a married woman, do so for no-strings-attached sex; though I'm sure that some do it because they are in love with the married woman (one thing you will never hear a man say is "I couldn't help falling in love with Mrs. so-and-so..." - but all men, except the socially depraved, recognize that it is wrong and I would think that very few would turn to an advice board to find comfort or justification like so many OW seem to do.
TUDOR Posted May 20, 2005 Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by pragmatic I agree with Owl. Most men tend to prefer sorting through emotional trauma on their own, especially the self-inflicted pain that an OM might suffer. I would add that men in general, even the ones who don't adhere to it, understand that there is a "code of conduct" of sorts that stigmatizes consorting with another man's wife. In some societies it seems to be less taboo (read the Kama Sutra, for instance), but in the western world it is definitely a matter of honor in addition to the moral considerations. Most men go after a married woman for no-strings-attached sex; though I'm sure that some do it because they are in love with the married woman (one thing you will never hear a man say is "I couldn't help falling in love with Mrs. so-and-so..." - but all men, except the socially depraved, recognize that it is wrong and I would think that very few would turn to an advice board to find comfort or justification like so many OW seem to do. Well said!
Author lindya Posted May 20, 2005 Author Posted May 20, 2005 Well Owl, I suppose my question to you would be whether you're more inclined to blame your partner or the Other Man for what happened. Do you see the Other Man as a calculating and opportunistic home-wrecker, or is he just a guy who understandably "seized the moment"? Most of us have been cheated on at some point. When I found out it had happened to me it felt easier to view my ex as an innocent fly who wandered into the trap of a scheming manipulative praying mantis. Certainly the woman he slept with was a bit manipulative in the way she went about things, but my ex was no babe-in-arms himself. I just wanted to believe that it was mainly her fault, because it was the only way I could justify my decision to try working things through with him. Perhaps as you say, men are less inclined to post about this sort of thing. Still, I can't help feeling that women get quickly labelled as scheming and calculating in these matters. Men can be every bit as scheming and calculating as women can be when it comes to cheating - yet time and time again they're allowed to pull off the goonish "I just can't help myself" act.
Owl Posted May 20, 2005 Posted May 20, 2005 Well, I've got mixed feelings about the whole thing, and in my case it's a little different. My wife had an online emotional affair...and when confronted about it, very nearly left to go live with her OM. In our case, it was a 'love affair'...there really wasn't any chance for a physical affair to happen, as he lives on the other side of the country. They met playing online games together, and 'fell in love' from there. They were just getting to the point of planning on how to meet up and 'see if what they had was real in person too'. I blame all three of us to a degree for the whole thing. I know that I didn't MAKE my wife fall for this guy, but there were issues in our marriage that set the stage for a lot of this. Things that I contributed to. So there's my part. My wife knew when things were 'going too far', but didn't stop it when she should have. She is as much to blame as anyone, simply because of that. I have a lot of resentment for the OM in our case as well, for a few reasons. He claimed to be 'my friend' as well. The three of us gamed together. But, my wife told me after it was all said and done that he'd admitted to 'wanting' her from the very beginning. So there was nothing real and honest in his friendship with me at the very least...he 'had an agenda' as far as I'm concerned. He not only supported my wife in nearly destroying our marriage, but betrayed that friendship as well. I don't think he deliberately lured her, at least not until the end when everything was out of the bag, and she was trying to decide what to do. But, he also played his part by not 'being a man' and being a friend and putting an end to things on his side as well. In truth, there's really no 'blame' to pass around. I will never trust this guy again, and if he showed up on my doorstep there would be hell to pay, but the reality is simply that both of them didn't stop at the boundaries where they should have, and this is how we got to where we were. Since then, all contact with OM and my wife has stopped. I know it for a fact. She's over him, she's glad that she stayed, glad that she didn't throw away our marriage. She still feels that she loved him, but that's the end of it. She doesn't look for him now, and is very happy with where our marriage is now. I've forgiven her, as I can see how things got to where they did. I've sort of forgiven him, at least for his part in the emotional affair. I've not forgiven him for the betrayed friendship, and won't ever trust him again. Make sense?
Author lindya Posted May 20, 2005 Author Posted May 20, 2005 Make sense? Yes, it does. You forgave your wife because at the end of the day you love her. This guy, on the other hand, was really just an acquaintance. You didn't have the same emotional investment in him, so there isn't the same requirement to forgive him.
Owl Posted May 20, 2005 Posted May 20, 2005 Partially. I've forgiven him as much as I'm able to. I don't actively hate him any longer, and I can understand why he did what he did...after all, I'm attracted to my wife, so why wouldn't other guys be attracted to her as well. In our case, he knew from day one that she was married, but didn't let that stop him from building a relationship with her. I know that my wife's made a lot of changes to ensure that she'll never let herself get into this kind of situation again...but I don't know that he has. He also deliberately formed a friendship with me that I now believe was entirely a lie, intended to allow him to continue his relationship with my wife. I know that my wife was unhappy with the way things were, and was also dealing with untreated depression. That is what lead to her side of things happening. What was HE dealing with that justified HIS part in this whole thing? Nothing that I'm aware of.
reservoirdog1 Posted May 20, 2005 Posted May 20, 2005 As a man who was also "cuckolded", I have my own perspective because it happened three times (that I'm aware of -- there were probably more) with the same now-ex-wife, and with different men. And I found out about all of it at once. Assume there were only three for the present purposes. The three OMs were different. One, I thought was a friend, and their fyckfest was before the wedding. The second, I also considered a friend, though there was always a difference between us that I could never account for -- always just figured he was a closer friend to the ex than to me (and, I was right ). That one started within weeks of the wedding and lasted for several months. The third was an older guy who I don't know and never met. I'm not sure I buy there being a "brotherhood" among men. But I do believe that each of us has a duty -- especially to those we know personally -- as members of the human race to NOT fyck each other over. Screwing around with another person's spouse crosses the line, in a way second only to physically hurting them or one of your loved ones. For the reasons I outlined above, the second OM is the focus of my antipathy towards them as a collective. And he's the only one who lives in my city. How do I divvy up responsibility? Mathematicians may cringe, but I put it at 100% the ex-wife, 50% the OMs. She was miserable in the marriage and made selfish decisions that hurt me (which doesn't change the fact that they were her CHOICES). The OMs don't have that explanation -- they saw somebody who was somewhat vulnerable and took advantage of it. Them, I hate. Especially #2. I'm not sure what my reaction will be if I see him again, but it won't be pretty. (Check out one of my earliest posts on LS and you'll see the fyck you letter I wrote him, under the heading "Letter to the OM".) Unfortunately for him, I trust easily but rarely forgive when I'm badly wronged. Whether or not I'll ever forgive my ex-wife is one thing. Him, I will probably never forgive... at least without him groveling before me and asking for it. Fortunately for him, the hate I feel is pretty passive. It doesn't determine my actions or anything like that, it's just there in a small corner of my being. It still serves its purpose occasionally, like when I'm doing boxing at the gym. As for my ex-wife -- I have felt hate at times. What I feel now is somewhere between negativity and indifference, moving closer to indifference every day. Anyway, I don't know if my own feelings are immature, or understandable, or whatever. But this is a pretty honest summary of them.
RecordProducer Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 The OM is happy to get laid. Men ignore the presence of another man in a woman's life. Men hit on me all the time and never ask me if I am in love with someone or not. When I tell them that I am, they don't stop. All they care about is to get lucky. They concentrate on the relationship itself, not the side factors. The typical wife-OM story is the Madame Bovary's case (OM get bored of her and stop seeing her while she is still in love) or Anna Karenina's story (wife leaves husband for OM and the OM gets bored of her). Women are more romantic and more prone to leaving their husbands for the idealized lover. I can hardly imagine a married woman using an OM for sex while he is madly in love with her.
blind folded Posted June 21, 2005 Posted June 21, 2005 I love how you guys ridiculously manage to group men into one category or another. Yes, we all have similarities, like two lungs and one tongue, but don't be absurd. I have been an OM for over two years. I am completely in love with her, and accept that she does not have the courage to leave him. It is my choice to stay. Most of the time, I just try to forget about that stuff. When we are together, it is always magic, and that's why we work so well. We eat good food, drink wine, laugh, stay in cabins or nice resorts, or even the sleaziest hotels. Sometimes I get to spend a week with her, other times I don't see her for two months or more. I haven't seen her husband for about 6 months or more. He's a nice guy, truly and you know, I realize that I am a total jerk. But what he doesn't know won't hurt him. Besides, he's married to the most beautiful woman I know, quite frankly I envy him. She loves him and will never leave him, and me? Well, I'm just having fun. I used to be married, but found it too boring.
pragmatic Posted June 22, 2005 Posted June 22, 2005 Originally posted by blind folded Well, I'm just having fun. I hope you will join and post regularly. Your point of view might stir up a little of what the original poster was seeking.
blind folded Posted June 24, 2005 Posted June 24, 2005 You want to know the truth? The truth is, I feel like the loneliest person on the planet. When I hear his name I want to cry. When she tells me how much she loves me it hurts me more. The truth is, she can't listen to my pain because if she knew how much it hurt she would leave me out of love. When she breaks plans with me because of him... do you know what that's like? Do you know what it's like to fly half way across the world to see someone only to spend the time alone? To have no life because you keep every moment open for them, in hopes they can find the time for you? I can't help who I love, and when we're together we have the most wonderful times I have known. But I live my life in secrecy, I have noone to talk to, and if she has children with him I think I might kill myself. That's the truth.
whichwayisup Posted June 24, 2005 Posted June 24, 2005 Blind folded, i feel for you but this situation you're in isn't healthy. She goes home to him everynight. She spends holidays with him, wakes up with him to start the day. I know you love her but you deserve someone who will love JUST you. You're in so deep and honestly, it won't get any better. She is doing you wrong as well as her husband. It's just wrong all around. Get some help, a therapist and slowly come to terms about ending it. Read around some OW threads, find out how they handled their situations...How their hearts broke, "waiting" for the MM to leave his wife. It rarely happens. If she loved you enough and wanted to be with you, she would have ended her marriage. ... She hasn't done that. Is all this worth your energy? Those stolen moments, that bit of time together isn't worth it anymore, is it? Think about it. The therapy will help you cope, learn how to deal with all the emotions involved. The love may be there, but she's having her cake and eating it too. That's not fair to you, to her husband and she is also hurting herself...
blind folded Posted June 25, 2005 Posted June 25, 2005 Is all this worth your energy? Those stolen moments, that bit of time together isn't worth it anymore, is it? Think about it. I did see a therapist. It was kind of interesting, actually. He told me that some people stuck in their mundane lives would love to be in my shoes... I mean, we have had a tremendous time, travelling the globe really. Being in some exotic city, it's hot and humid, you have some wine and a nice meal, a few more drinks and some dancing, and then back to the hotel for a night of unbelievable passion... You just can't get that in a marriage. You know what I mean? But of course the high's are high, and the lows are extremely low. I'd say it's more like heroin, then a rollercoaster... not that I would know the former. We are both exceptionally successfull in our careers, healthy, around thirty and.. I don't know. I guess I'm getting the feeling that nothing lasts forever, and eventually she will get the urge to start a family... and when happens, it's all over. And she knows it. I am setting myself up for a great disaster, I know it and I feel almost helpless to it. Even though I was married myself at one time and positively loathed it, I can't help but be jealous of what he has. It's funny though, because I almost feel like he is her Dad, and when she can't come out it means she's grounded. Like I'm still a teenager, and perhaps in some ways I still am. (but it's been some time since I had it twice in a row ; ) bf
kkat Posted June 25, 2005 Posted June 25, 2005 I apologize for going off course in this important and interesting thread, but wanted to encourage Blind Folded... Please start a post of your own. Your situation is similar in many ways to the one I was in (and still struggle with emotionally daily)... You are clearly in so much pain. I am so sorry. There are many of us here who might be able to give you support and advice. When I started posting here a year and a half ago I could barely get out of bed and wanted to injure myself. I am far from healed but am so far ahead of that place now! LS was a big help. Good thoughts....tell your story in a post if you like....and either way....good luck.
reservoirdog1 Posted June 25, 2005 Posted June 25, 2005 Given my personal experiences, I'll admit I'm tempted to be pretty uncharitable towards you, BlindFolded. But instead, I'll repeat an idea I gave to an OW who posted on here several months ago. She may be first and foremost in your life. But you're not that in hers. You know all those special holidays that couples share, that stir up romantic feelings? She's going to spend most, if not all, of those with her husband. What's that leave for you? Flag Day. Or Arbor Day. Or other **** like that. You can't help who you love. But you can help what you do in response to those feelings. Sounds like you're setting yourself up for a life of misery, punctuated by a few nights of hot sex. Doesn't sound like much of a life, IMHO. If you want to find a way to be happy long-term, I suggest you cut her out of your life. That will hurt in the short term, no doubt about it. But it'll probably do you a world of good in the long term.
mental_traveller Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Originally posted by blind folded I did see a therapist. It was kind of interesting, actually. He told me that some people stuck in their mundane lives would love to be in my shoes... I mean, we have had a tremendous time, travelling the globe really. Being in some exotic city, it's hot and humid, you have some wine and a nice meal, a few more drinks and some dancing, and then back to the hotel for a night of unbelievable passion... You just can't get that in a marriage. You know what I mean? Why can't you get that in a marriage?
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