The mother of my child is a stripper now. I m not sure how to feel?

[lebowski99]

Downtown, it's reassuring how extremely well you can relate.

 

When you spoke about your exW, you mentioned she had a warm and friendly personality that others are drawn to... In regard to my ex, she tries so hard to project this image of happiness and as if everything is great in her life. For one, it has been kind of conflicting for me because I've previously wanted people to see her for what she really is. It had kind of bothered me that she can be so positive and light hearted around people who don't even care about her, but then behave like a complete monster to me on most occasions. Also, I've questioned before if her "happiness" is just a guise she puts on in order to make me believe she is so much better off without me. She has tried everything she can to make it seem like she's completely moved on and that her life is so great, but I find that extremely hard to believe.

 

And since our break up, I've wavered somewhat with the boundaries. It seems like when she would feel me beginning to slip away and be withdrawn, she would try to reel me back in. Like giving me compliments telling me how attractive I am whenever I would get my daughter or drop her off. Or randomly texting me about some show we watched or asking me how to cook something. There's been many instances. One time since our break up she broke into my moms house while I was at work because I told her she had to wait until Friday to get our daughter. I did so because she wouldn't get my daughter for weeks, and then would only want her for a day or two whenever she wanted to show her off. I was trying to instill structure in my daughters life and have a more equal balance of distribution for raising my daughter. But she went berzerk, got arrested, and my daughter was brought back.. I was furious and messaged her some pretty nasty things and she was placing the blame on me, then HOURS LATER, she was asking my if I would wear something that she wanted to buy me. She sent several texts asking why I wouldn't talk to her and this was months after the break up... The whole situation was beyond belief to me. She has done that several times before where she just flips that switch like you had mentioned.

 

But now she has been with at least a couple other guys, and she has tried to convince me best she can that she doesn't care about what I do. I just don't get why she insists on trying to hurt me then. And I know she has done a few things intentionally just to hurt me because I can read her like a book... But what's strange is that the last couple of months she will get mad at me or be upset about something, but then try to lure me in immediately afterward. For instance, there's been a couple occasions where she cursed at me and went on a tirade while on my way to get my daughter, and once I arrive, she's doing something to try and draw me back in. Like last month she had just went off on me, then was pleading for me to give her $20 when I got there, and I said I would have to go to the ATM and she was INSISTING that she ride with me. She was adamant she ride with me to the ATM and was trying to talk to me there and back whenever she had just got done telling me how much of an ass hole I am before that... And also within the last 2 months, she did the same thing, and when I showed up, she came out with nothing but a shirt on and my daughters blanket wrapped around her. She has tried to sexually entice/tease me a few times since we've been split, and I don't get why. If she's so far moved on from me, why does she do these things? If she's so happy with whoever else or doing whatever else, why do this stuff? It just doesn't make sense if I never satisfied her like she claims...

 

Also, I'm so glad you could understand my sediment about recognizing the hurt child within her. It was EXTREMELY conflicting for me. Part of what made it hard for me to move on. I felt like it wasn't her fault for why she is the way she is. But I also knew it was necessary to not completely absolve her of any responsibility for her actions. the whole thing was very difficult, though. I could see the hurt and pain with her, and just wanted to make her feel loved. It's extremely painful not being able to provide that to someone you love so much.

[SoThatHappened]

The result is that, whenever you try to have a calm reasonable discussion with a BPDer on any sensitive issue, you have only ten seconds -- the time it takes for her intense feelings to be triggered -- before you find yourself dealing with the four-year-old-child part of her mind.

Some great stuff you're providing, Downtown.

 

Everything rings a bell, and Lebowski, I'm sure you're probably saying "check" in your head at each example provided.

 

I can relate to the quote above quite well. When I simply asked my ex "why" she'd slept with so many people by the time she was 21 (around 30 guys), she went silent, ran into my bedroom, and went catatonic while sitting in the corner.

 

I went into the room, knelt down beside her, and had to talk to her like an adult talks to a child who was just placed in "timeout." Literally 5 minutes later, she screwed my brains out.

 

Stuff like this is so hard to keep up with, which is why you feel you're ALWAYS walking on eggshells.

 

You're really getting some gems here, Lebowski. Knowledge to help you in the future.

Edited October 15, 2015 by SoThatHappened

[Downtown]

It had kind of bothered me that she can be so positive and light hearted around people who don't even care about her, but then behave like a complete monster to me on most occasions.

Lebowski, it is common for a BPDer to be gracious and caring all day long to casual friends, business associates, and complete strangers -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love her. She is able to be consistently compassionate with all those people because NONE of them poses a threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment.

 

There is no close relationship that can be abandoned. And there is no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment. This is why it is common to find high functioning BPDers -- and the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning -- in caregiving professions such as nursing, social work, and teaching.

 

If she's so far moved on from me, why does she do these things? If she's so happy with whoever else or doing whatever else, why do this stuff? It just doesn't make sense if I never satisfied her like she claims.

These questions make sense if you assume she is behaving like a stable, mature adult. They are rather pointless, however, once you start recognizing that she is so emotionally immature -- being stuck at the level of a four-year-old -- that her intense feelings at any moment in time constitute her "reality."

 

As a father, you don't feel confused when seeing that your young daughter adores you when you are bringing her five toys but then starts hating you when you take one away. Likewise, you don't find it inexplicable that your daughter loves a particular activity in the morning but hates it in the afternoon. As a parent, you know that this is how young children typically behave due to their immaturity and lack of emotional control. And you know that, even while she is hating you, her love for you is still there but is temporarily out of reach of her conscious mind.

 

Similarly, if your Ex is a BPDer, you will go a long way toward better understanding her "irrational" behaviors if you start recognizing that it is her inner child -- not her inner adult -- that is in control whenever she experiences intense feelings. To a lesser degree, that also is true for you and me. This is why, by the time we were in high school, we already knew our judgment goes out the window whenever we are very angry or infatuated. And this is why we try to keep our mouths shut when angry and try to delay buying the ring when infatuated. Well, BPDers are like that too -- only it is times twenty with them.

 

It was EXTREMELY conflicting for me. Part of what made it hard for me to move on. I felt like it wasn't her fault for why she is the way she is. But I also knew it was necessary to not completely absolve her of any responsibility for her actions.

If she is a BPDer, she will tolerate the relationship only as long as you stop behaving like your true self and, instead, keep walking on eggshells as she demands. The price of continuing the relationship, then, was that you would have had to keep harming her with that enabling behavior. It was harmful because, like that of a young child, her only chance to confront her own issues and learn how to manage them -- i.e., how to grow up -- is to be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad choices. Edited October 15, 2015 by Downtown

[johnbarnz]

Im right there with you man! Its tough I'm going through the same thing. Honestly though i think its made it easier for me now to move on because of this situation. Im in love with someone who isn't even that person anymore. She's probably going through the same thing my ex is right now. They will both figure out some point what they lost. Just stay strong and hopefully by the time she does you have already moved on and made the decision not to take her back. Fyi i know a couple girls who are and were strippers and i can't say that even one of them are happy with there life haha

[Oregon_Dude]

Wow, Downtown. You have really opened my eyes with your insight itt. Thank you for everything you have written. It's helping me to understand some of the actions of my likely BPD ex.

[lebowski99]

I appreciate all of the support and contributions from everyone. This is really far more therapeutic and eye opening than what I was provided with from the few sessions I have taken with a psychologist.

 

Downtown, you have been extremely insightful and you're helping people far beyond me. You've been remarkably articulate and have addressed every concern of mine. I can't even begin to thank you enough. But I'm sure you can relate about how these destructive thoughts can ruminate in your mind. It's almost like a never ending revolving door. The thoughts just keep coming back until you really address them and take the time to figure stuff out. And I can read all of the articles or forums I want, but it's such an immense help to get answers to specific questions/concerns of mine. You've been absolutely awesome.

 

And I forgot to mention, but yea, there have been times with my ex also where she will very fleetingly acknowledge she has a problem. It has been a handful of times, but there's been those rare moments of clarity where she has pretty much said she doesn't know why she does the things she does and that she realizes she has something wrong with her... One time she even said something that will stick with me forever. It was almost kind of sadistic and I can't be sure if she was being serious, and I don't think her issues are within the realm of psychosis, but she alluded to hearing a voice on occasions. I don't remember exactly what she was saying because it happened so quickly and she refused to elaborate, but she was saying something about how I wouldn't understand and she really has something wrong with her... But I'm not sure what she could have been referring to because outside of probably having BPD, she functions as a normal person.

 

Also, how does BPD affect her friendships? Wouldn't she become alienated and closed off from them as well? Because she has mood swings and gets an attitude very easily, and I'm not sure how that wouldn't cause more conflict with the people she considers friends?

 

One more thing, but with BPD, does this mean she will be miserable with anyone she is with after the initial "honeymoon phase"?

[lebowski99]

Johnbarnz, it's nice to have people who can relate. Sometimes it can feel like you're all alone in a situation but it gives hope to know that other people are also getting through the same stuff.

 

And lastly Downtown, I eventually just got tired of walking on eggshells. I became extremely withdrawn, which made her try to obsessively cling on tighter. Which obviously only pushed me further way. Which then fulfilled her prophecy of abandonment--her worst nightmare. So she had to find her first opportunity out

[Downtown]

Yea, there have been times with my ex also where she will very fleetingly acknowledge she has a problem. It has been a handful of times, but there's been those rare moments of clarity where she has pretty much said she doesn't know why she does the things she does and that she realizes she has something wrong with her....

Lebowski, BPDers typically have a vague awareness that something is wrong because they feel an emptiness inside. Moreover, they are often aware that their projected false self image is largely false. BPDers therefore live in fear that their partners -- no matter how much they may appear to be in love today -- will abandon them as soon as they discover how empty the BPDers are on the inside.

 

Aside from this vague awareness, however, it is rare for a BPDer to be "self aware." My best guess would be that roughly 5% of HF BPDers are self aware and that the percentage is greater among the LF BPDers (who are in so much pain that they are more likely to seek help and be self aware). I've seen no study results supporting that figure, however.

 

I don't think her issues are within the realm of psychosis, but she alluded to hearing a voice on occasions.

The only study I've seen, which is based on a small sample of 171 low functioning BPDers, found that 30% experienced the voices. See 2005 Study. Studies seem to suggest that these LF BPDers account for only 1/3 to 1/4 of all BPDers because the vast majority -- which are rarely seen by therapists -- are high functioning. If so, and if the 30% figure is reasonably accurate, then perhaps 7% to 10% of BPDers experience a persistent problem with voices. I've seen no study results on the incidence of transient problems that rarely reappear -- as your Ex seems to describe.

 

I don't know whether it is true but I've seen several sources claiming that the BPDers hearing voices usually perceive it as coming from inside their heads. I've seen claims that such an occurrence is generally regarded as a pseudo-psychosis and not too serious, because it is much more unusual to perceive the voice as coming from outside the head (which, according to this view, is considered far more serious because it is generally regarded as true psychosis).

 

The American diagnostic manual (DSM-5) does not specifically list "hearing voices" as a BPD trait but apparently does include it in the defining trait, "Having stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside the body, or losing touch with reality." See NIHM List of Symptoms. In contrast, the UK's Royal College of Psychiatrists does specifically list it. One of the defining traits is "You often feel paranoid or depressed and, when, stressed, may hear noises or voices." See RCPsych.

 

Also, how does BPD affect her friendships? Wouldn't she become alienated and closed off from them as well?

Yes. Generally, BPDers don't have any close LTRs unless the "close friend" lives a long distance away. As you surmised, the BPDer's two fears becomes triggered by any casual friend who makes the mistake of drawing close. The result is that the BPDer will create a fight to push that close friend away -- or will simply freeze him out by breaking off all contact.

 

With BPD, does this mean she will be miserable with anyone she is with after the initial "honeymoon phase"?

Yes. As we discussed earlier, the BPDer's new lover will start triggering her anger as soon as her infatuation evaporates, allowing the two fears to return. With untreated BPDers, it is impossible to avoid triggering the two fears (abandonment and engulfment) because they lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum.

 

This means that, as lover boy moves away from her to avoid triggering her engulfment fear, he unavoidably is moving closer to triggering her abandonment fear. And vice versa is true too. Sadly, there is no midpoints position (midway between "too close" and "too far away") where lover boy can safely stand to avoid triggering both fears.

 

Of course, the BPDer faces the same sad predicament: she is faced with a lose-lose situation because she is in pain when drawing close and also in pain when drawing away. This is why I wouldn't wish this disorder on my worst enemy.

[lebowski99]

I've always wondered what she meant when she made the reference about hearing a voice. She didn't explain whatsoever though and seemed very reluctant to even mention it in the first place. I've wondered how that has affected her... I've never been sure if she was being serious or not.

 

And unfortunately she is my worst enemy, because nobody has tried to hurt me more than her. The things she's done to me and ways she's made me feel I wouldn't wish on my own worst enemy... But I feel like she needs help for the sake of my daughter and a far easier co-parenting relationship. Also, if she were to receive help and actively work on becoming better, would it open her eyes to the things she has done? Would she start to see things from a more realistic perspective and understand things from my view point more?

[Downtown]

If she were to receive help and actively work on becoming better, would it open her eyes to the things she has done? Would she start to see things from a more realistic perspective and understand things from my view point more?

If she has strong BPD traits, it likely would take several years of intensive therapy before you would see a real change in her behavior. I would be surprised if more than 1% of high functioning BPDers ever achieve that. It is rare for a BPDer to have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to remain in therapy long enough to make a real difference.

 

Hence, if you decide that she has strong BPD traits, I suggest you tell your lawyer to play hard ball so you aggressively seek as much custody as possible with your daughter. Making concessions with a BPDer does NOT build up a store of good will on which you can later draw. You do NOT create an accumulation of appreciation that will later smooth things over. Instead, the BPDer's perception of "reality" will be fully dependent on her feelings at any moment in time. Those feelings wash away all sacrifices and compromises you've made previously.

 

With my BPDer exW, for example, I've been sending her an alimony check every 3 months for 8 years. Each check pays the total amount due in the coming three months -- with one month being paid on time, one month being paid 30 days early, and a third month being paid 60 days in advance. Hence, two-thirds of my payments over the last 8 years were made a month or two early.

 

Even so, my exW always leaves several nasty messages on my answering machine whenever the letter arrives a day or two late (even though it was mailed on time). She has no sense of appreciation whatsoever for anything I've done for her -- unless it is happening at this very moment in time. This is why I suggest you play hard ball and stop walking on eggshells because the latter approach will buy you little or nothing when dealing with shared custody.

[Popsicle]

I understand your disappointment but she does it because she needs money.

[lebowski99]

Downtown, your insight is ASTOUNDING and will help me tremendously moving forward. I'm sorry that you've had to endure all of that. I've sometimes wondered about what you've just mentioned. With normal people, there's that well of appreciation to draw from when things do go as you want, but you've been so accurate in describing these people as living strictly in the moment. I've commented to my ex before about how she allows her emotions to dictate every single thing she does. Her momentary feelings completely control her every action, without consideration for the past or future.

 

It's so hard getting through this though. Have things been tough since your split with your exW? Have you ever missed her or has she tried to draw you back in at all? I'm curious what to expect as I move forward

[lebowski99]

Popsicle, a lot of people need money, but I'm not sure you can put a price on your dignity. There's plenty of jobs that don't require you to degrade and objectify yourself.

[Popsicle]

Popsicle, a lot of people need money, but I'm not sure you can put a price on your dignity. There's plenty of jobs that don't require you to degrade and objectify yourself.

 

I'm not justifying her choice, but there may be a lot of things at play. Maybe she's forced to live on her own (with baby) and can't make the bills otherwise without that higher paying gig.

 

Someone above said that there were 3 kids of strippers. You may want to check that out. I'm sure the ones who do it solely for the money never intend to keep doing it and try to get an education or work their way into a better paying job.

 

You can speak to her about it, but you can't control her. If I were you, I'd focus on getting your own situation finished, then get custody.

[lebowski99]

She gets free housing due to being a single mother. She gets $300 a month for food stamps. And she's getting free day care service. So I don't think she's being "forced" to sell her dignity. I get where you're coming from, but I know of plenty females who are in more dire circumstances, but they work their asses off to achieve their goals. I'll never be convinced that taking your clothes off for money is something someone HAS to do to survive.

 

And I understand there is this new feminist movement in our society, but it is degrading and disgusting for someone to allow men to look and touch all over your body for money. Your mind, body, and soul is beyond money.

[xxoo]

She gets free housing due to being a single mother. She gets $300 a month for food stamps. And she's getting free day care service. So I don't think she's being "forced" to sell her dignity. I get where you're coming from, but I know of plenty females who are in more dire circumstances, but they work their asses off to achieve their goals. I'll never be convinced that taking your clothes off for money is something someone HAS to do to survive.

 

And I understand there is this new feminist movement in our society, but it is degrading and disgusting for someone to allow men to look and touch all over your body for money. Your mind, body, and soul is beyond money.

 

What you've got to accept for your own sake is, it is none of your business. Control what you can and accept what you can not. There's a reason that mantra is part of addiction recovery, and your relationship with this woman is some sort of an addiction for you.

 

Focus on healing your own unhealthy attachment to and interest in this woman, beyond the quality of care she provides for your daughter.

[Downtown]

You've been so accurate in describing these people as living strictly in the moment.

Yes, in the sense that they are slaves to whatever emotion they are feeling NOW, they do live "in the moment" as you say. In another sense, however, they do not. With respect to conscious thoughts (not feelings), a BPDer typically finds it very difficult to remain in the present. Hence, she often will seem to be miles away -- in the past or future -- when you're trying to discuss something with her.

 

A BPDer relies on a mild form of dissociation -- daydreaming -- to escape the unpleasantness of the present by wandering into the past (recalling all the terrible things you did to her) and into the future (ruminating about her fears of you leaving her or being controlling and suffocating). This is why, when a BPDer undergoes CBT or DBT therapy, one of the first lessons that will be taught to her is "mindfulness," i.e., how to focus one's conscious thoughts on the present instead of escaping into the past.

 

This inability to remain mindful during conversations will be especially evident when you are tying to discuss a current issue and the BPDer responds by citing something you did or said a year ago. My exW, for example, thought it was perfectly fine to defend her current complaint with something she imagined I had said or done 15 years earlier. Indeed, a recurring problem was her conviction, in the latter half of our marriage, that I was creating a new lie every week.

 

Yet, when I would insist that she give me an example of a lie I had told her in the past week, she invariably reached back in time, over a decade, to some alleged incident or argument that neither of us could even remember. By her distorted (childish) way of thinking, however, reaching back 15 years for an example of what supposedly occurred "last week" was totally sensible.

 

I've commented to my ex before about how she allows her emotions to dictate every single thing she does. Her momentary feelings completely control her every action, without consideration for the past or future.

Yes, the human condition is that an intense feeling will color and distort one's perception -- including the perception of past events. When you are very angry with a friend, for example, your mind tends to "rewrite history" by reinterpreting things that friend has done for you in the past. Instead, of perceiving those actions as acts of generosity, you now perceive them to be manipulative acts intended to control your behavior.

 

What distinguishes BPDers, then, is not that they experience thought distortions. That is true for all of us. Rather, what sets BPDers apart is their inability -- like young children -- to regulate their own emotions. The result is that they experience far more intense feelings than the rest of us. Moreover, due to their emotional immaturity, they lack the impulse control needed to keep their mouths shut. And they lack the ability to "cool down" quickly because they have no self-soothing skills.

 

Have things been tough since your split with your exW?

Well, it was tough for 18 months after the split -- until the D occurred. My first problem was getting out of jail. As is so common in BPDer relationships, my exW had become so fearful of abandonment that she had me arrested on the bogus charge of "brutalizing her." In fact, I had simply pushed her away from my bedroom door, which she was trying to destroy in a rage. And my "brutalization" occurred just 20 feet away from our granddaughter and my sister in law (who were watching TV behind another bedroom door). Being arrested early on a Saturday morning meant I remained in jail for nearly 3 days awaiting arraignment before a judge.

 

When I was released, I learned she had obtained a R/O barring me from returning to my own home, a home I had owned for 16 years before my exW even moved in. I was unable to go home for 18 months, the time it takes to get a divorce in this State.

 

On release from jail, I also learned that my 5 adult step children would no longer speak with me. These are 5 people who I had supported and loved for 15 years. Indeed, I had helped pay college expenses for the two youngest -- and had given two cars to one and helped finance a car for the second youngest.

 

After two years, the oldest decided to start speaking with me again on the phone because I was the only real grandparent her three kids had (because the four biological grandparents largely ignored them). The other 4 step kids, however, haven't spoken again. Before the split, my exW had threatened alienate all her kids from me -- and she did exactly that. I have no idea what she told them.

 

Have you ever missed her?

Yes, of course I miss her. She was an important part of my life. Indeed, she was my "first love" and my only wife. When we started dating, she was 17 and I was 19. But, because her father was so abusive, she was desperate to leave home (unbeknownst to me). So, after we had dated two years, she suddenly announced she was getting married to some other guy.

 

Because her last name changed and she and her parents both relocated, I did not see her again for 27 years -- after she had called me out of the blue one day. Then we lived together for 15 years. As you can see, we have a long history together and I still think of her with much fondness.

 

Has she tried to draw you back in at all?

Yes, that started while I was still under a R/O to stay away from my home. Although she was supposedly "fearful" of me, she would not hesitate to get together with me anywhere in town. And, after our divorce was final, she kept calling every two weeks. That went on for another 8 months until, finally, I ended it. In her last call, she asked why I wouldn't return her calls and renew our friendship.

 

I found it painful to say, but I explained to her that she was unable to trust me or anyone else because her sexually abusive father had destroyed her ability to trust. I explained that, because trust is the foundation on which all friendships must be based, we lacked a basis for forming a true friendship. Then I said goodbye and hung up.

 

That was a sad day because, in my mind, I was throwing up my hands and walking away from a sick, frightened little girl. By then, I knew that doing otherwise would only continue to harm her (with the enabling behavior required to make the "friendship" acceptable to her). But it was still a very sad event for me.

[warshaw]

With my BPDer exW, for example, I've been sending her an alimony check every 3 months for 8 years. Each check pays the total amount due in the coming three months -- with one month being paid on time, one month being paid 30 days early, and a third month being paid 60 days in advance. Hence, two-thirds of my payments over the last 8 years were made a month or two early.

 

I was told by my attorney that if I was to pay the support payments in a lump sum I could be liable for more- my exwife could petition the court and say those extra payments were considered to be a "gift" because the support order states a certain amount per month- and anything over that would not be considered support.