Vulnerability

[Mrs. John Adams]

But Katielee....he isn't you and you are not him....and your needs are very different. You need to discuss it and examine it and tear it apart....and he wants to suffer in silence. Neither one is wrong....it's just the way he processes....

 

John and i are also very different....and we process differently. I rattle...( bet you would never have guessed that...lol) and i just keep on talking when i get nervous....which is one reason...he never doubted that i told him the whole truth about my affair....and john is very quiet....and has to think about things before he says them.

 

SO i think maybe you are taking his silence as a negative.....when in reality....maybe he is truly doing great and just has nothing more to say about it.

 

Keeping the lines of communication open is very important....but those lines don't always have to have a busy signal. Silence can very well be golden.....

as long as he knows he CAN tell you if he needs to....that's what's important....and if you feel like he is shutting you out...and not letting you vent....then you simply tell him...I need to tell you this. I cannot imagine he would not be willing to listen.

[nightmare01]

[...]

 

I asked myself what payoff am I getting by talking about it. I want him to know I'm still hurt. Why do I want him to know that? Because maybe he'll treat me better. But he already treats me well. I don't want him to forget that I am still not good with what happened. Why? I'm sure he's not good with it either. I want him to appreciate sacrifice. He says he does. Ugh. I can't get at my core need to talk. Any advice?

 

For me the crux of this is that I want acknowledgement of my feelings from my WW.

 

Many WS including my WW that I've spoken to over the years say that they never think of their affair once the initial turmoil of Dday and it's immediate aftermath have passed. They never think of it. They never really think of their AP. They never really think of how awful they treated us during their affair.

 

This seems to sort of invalidate my (and other BS) experience. The single worst thing they did to us - the worst thing they ever could possibly do to us, is so unimportant that they just kinda forget about it. It's like it never happened to them.

 

They (WS) have closure. They know everything that happened in their affair. They know what all their feelings were. They know how they felt about us then. They know how they felt about their AP. They know exactly how their affair really ended. They know whether or not they still have some residual feelings for their AP. And they know whether or not they still hold on to fond memories of their time with their AP.

 

We know none of those things. Sure we can ask, and we can get answers. But there is no way we can know with absolute certainty if the answers we receive are the truth, or partial truth, or an utter lie. So in many ways we will never receive closure.

 

While many WS say can just forget their affair - maybe this is part of the compartmentalization that WS are capable of? - I've never known a BS that can completely forget the pain they endured.. we can get used to it, it can become like background noise, and we can live a happy life living with it, but forget it? No.

 

So maybe wanting to talk about the affair is about wanting acknowledgement. We want our WS to remember what they did to us. Not in terms of doing penance, but a simple acknowledgement of that history. It happened, and perhaps some evidence that steps are taken to prevent a recurrence, that boundaries are maintained and strongly guarded.

 

Talking about it may also be evidence that they actually care for us. That their feelings for us are real - because if you hurt someone you love then you should remember and have deep remorse about doing that. By talking to us about what they did, maybe they are putting us ahead of any cherished memory they may have of their AP. Talking about it says that we are more important than their memories, and even more important than their personal self esteem.

[autumnnight]

For me the crux of this is that I want acknowledgement of my feelings from my WW.

 

Many WS including my WW that I've spoken to over the years say that they never think of their affair once the initial turmoil of Dday and it's immediate aftermath have passed. They never think of it. They never really think of their AP. They never really think of how awful they treated us during their affair.

 

This seems to sort of invalidate my (and other BS) experience. The single worst thing they did to us - the worst thing they ever could possibly do to us, is so unimportant that they just kinda forget about it. It's like it never happened to them.

 

They (WS) have closure. They know everything that happened in their affair. They know what all their feelings were. They know how they felt about us then. They know how they felt about their AP. They know exactly how their affair really ended. They know whether or not they still have some residual feelings for their AP. And they know whether or not they still hold on to fond memories of their time with their AP.

 

We know none of those things. Sure we can ask, and we can get answers. But there is no way we can know with absolute certainty if the answers we receive are the truth, or partial truth, or an utter lie. So in many ways we will never receive closure.

 

While many WS say can just forget their affair - maybe this is part of the compartmentalization that WS are capable of? - I've never known a BS that can completely forget the pain they endured.. we can get used to it, it can become like background noise, and we can live a happy life living with it, but forget it? No.

 

So maybe wanting to talk about the affair is about wanting acknowledgement. We want our WS to remember what they did to us. Not in terms of doing penance, but a simple acknowledgement of that history. It happened, and perhaps some evidence that steps are taken to prevent a recurrence, that boundaries are maintained and strongly guarded.

 

Talking about it may also be evidence that they actually care for us. That their feelings for us are real - because if you hurt someone you love then you should remember and have deep remorse about doing that. By talking to us about what they did, maybe they are putting us ahead of any cherished memory they may have of their AP. Talking about it says that we are more important than their memories, and even more important than their personal self esteem.

 

 

This is strange to me. I guess I could see a WS eventually having zero thought positive or negative about the AP. But I cannot fathom just...forgetting the A itself. I cannot imagine not being blindsided by the understanding of the pain caused at least from time to time. I think it would always be in the back of my mind and heart somewhere that I did this thing to the person I love. I would hope a WS in a recovering marriage wouldn't be crippled by it - that doesn't do a healthy BS any favors either. But I can't imagine just being fine after "the dust settles." I've made some bad choices in my own life from time to time that hurt people, and I still dream about and cry about some of them.

[nightmare01]

This is strange to me. I guess I could see a WS eventually having zero thought positive or negative about the AP. But I cannot fathom just...forgetting the A itself. I cannot imagine not being blindsided by the understanding of the pain caused at least from time to time. I think it would always be in the back of my mind and heart somewhere that I did this thing to the person I love. I would hope a WS in a recovering marriage wouldn't be crippled by it - that doesn't do a healthy BS any favors either. But I can't imagine just being fine after "the dust settles." I've made some bad choices in my own life from time to time that hurt people, and I still dream about and cry about some of them.

 

I can't look inside other people's minds of course. But MANY WS's claim they never think of their affair unless their BS brings it up.

 

And just as many BS's pray / wish for their WS to bring up their affair in conversation sometimes, because when they (BS) do this they feel like the bad guy that's bringing everyone down.

[autumnnight]

I can't look inside other people's minds of course. But MANY WS's claim they never think of their affair unless their BS brings it up.

 

And just as many BS's pray / wish for their WS to bring up their affair in conversation sometimes, because when they (BS) do this they feel like the bad guy that's bringing everyone down.

 

Maybe this sounds weird.

 

I think that for at least the first couple of years, the WS should make a regular habit of opening up communication: Do you need to talk some? Are you feeling okay about things today? Is there anything I can do for you? I appreciate you not giving up on us and I'm still working hard.

 

After that, I still think some reassurance when, say, a movie has adultery in it or an old song triggers or maybe it's just a bad date on the calendar is in order. And if a WS is just sort of scatterbrained by nature, I'd encourage them to put it on a calendar if necessary. Maybe that seems artificial, but I think it is important enough that the BS needs the availability.

[katielee]

For me the crux of this is that I want acknowledgement of my feelings from my WW.

 

Many WS including my WW that I've spoken to over the years say that they never think of their affair once the initial turmoil of Dday and it's immediate aftermath have passed. They never think of it. They never really think of their AP. They never really think of how awful they treated us during their affair.

 

This seems to sort of invalidate my (and other BS) experience. The single worst thing they did to us - the worst thing they ever could possibly do to us, is so unimportant that they just kinda forget about it. It's like it never happened to them.

 

They (WS) have closure. They know everything that happened in their affair. They know what all their feelings were. They know how they felt about us then. They know how they felt about their AP. They know exactly how their affair really ended. They know whether or not they still have some residual feelings for their AP. And they know whether or not they still hold on to fond memories of their time with their AP.

 

We know none of those things. Sure we can ask, and we can get answers. But there is no way we can know with absolute certainty if the answers we receive are the truth, or partial truth, or an utter lie. So in many ways we will never receive closure.

 

While many WS say can just forget their affair - maybe this is part of the compartmentalization that WS are capable of? - I've never known a BS that can completely forget the pain they endured.. we can get used to it, it can become like background noise, and we can live a happy life living with it, but forget it? No.

 

So maybe wanting to talk about the affair is about wanting acknowledgement. We want our WS to remember what they did to us. Not in terms of doing penance, but a simple acknowledgement of that history. It happened, and perhaps some evidence that steps are taken to prevent a recurrence, that boundaries are maintained and strongly guarded.

 

Talking about it may also be evidence that they actually care for us. That their feelings for us are real - because if you hurt someone you love then you should remember and have deep remorse about doing that. By talking to us about what they did, maybe they are putting us ahead of any cherished memory they may have of their AP. Talking about it says that we are more important than their memories, and even more important than their personal self esteem.

 

I love this post. thank you.

For the record, I never forget I am a WS. I think about it every day and how much I hurt him.

One of the reasons (well the main reason) he doesn't like to talk about it is that it brings up what I did. And he doesnt' want to go there...

Edited October 1, 2015 by katielee
added a sentence

[xxoo]

I guess two points of reference - as a WS, I hope he's getting some benefit in talking to someone and I feel, if he's not talking to me, at least he is talking to someone and if it goes well then I'm happy for him. He said what I did changed his personality and I hope he has lots of help, if he needs it, getting him back to where he's comfortable with himself.

As a BS - I hope they are working on coping strategies, FOO issues, whatever gave him the green light that gave himself permission to have affairs.

 

Because there was no real change in actions or personality - most WS change a LOT - I have no gauge to determine if he is a safe person or not. People say to watch actions. Well, they are no different than before or during. It makes me feel safer to know if things are being addressed in IC.

 

Can you schedule a "family chat" once a month to check in in progress rather than seeking reassurance after every session?

 

Feeling the need to report to you after each session might limit him in opening up.

[katielee]

Can you schedule a "family chat" once a month to check in in progress rather than seeking reassurance after every session?

 

.

 

I feel that would expel from him a heavy sigh... but I could.

[autumnnight]

I feel that would expel from him a heavy sigh... but I could.

 

This is a bad analogy but....

 

I remember the Movie, The Breakup One of the famous scenes was where they fought over washing the dishes, and she said "I want you to WANT to wash the dishes." He replied "Who WANTS to wash dishes??"

 

Now, an affair and it's pain are way more important than dishes, but...do you think you could be okay with him agreeing to a regular chat, even if he DID sigh heavily?

 

Sometimes them doing it even when they aren't thrilled about it can still work. But I don't know in this case.

[katielee]

This is a bad analogy but....

 

I remember the Movie, The Breakup One of the famous scenes was where they fought over washing the dishes, and she said "I want you to WANT to wash the dishes." He replied "Who WANTS to wash dishes??"

 

Now, an affair and it's pain are way more important than dishes, but...do you think you could be okay with him agreeing to a regular chat, even if he DID sigh heavily?

 

Sometimes them doing it even when they aren't thrilled about it can still work. But I don't know in this case.

 

that's actually a great analogy!

[xxoo]

Once a month is a compromise.

 

It also could be more productive than that weekly check in.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I don't know....I think making an appointment to "discuss" our marriage is extremely unappealing....and I cannot imagine John would agree.

 

If you need to say something...your relationship should be strong enough for you to say it....and if he doesn't want to talk...you can't make him.....HOWEVER

 

this is about healing a broken relationship...this is about putting each other first....which includes talking about something whether you want to or not...and if i said to John...honey I need to talk and he gave me a big sigh...I would give him a swift kick in the ass.

 

If he doesn't care enough to talk to me and to listen to me because he is tired of talking about it....then maybe he just doesn't care enough about the relationship....that's how we got in this mess in the first place.....we did not TALK about feelings...maybe you need to remind your husband about that.....

[autumnnight]

I don't know....I think making an appointment to "discuss" our marriage is extremely unappealing....and I cannot imagine John would agree.

 

If you need to say something...your relationship should be strong enough for you to say it....and if he doesn't want to talk...you can't make him.....HOWEVER

 

this is about healing a broken relationship...this is about putting each other first....which includes talking about something whether you want to or not...and if i said to John...honey I need to talk and he gave me a big sigh...I would give him a swift kick in the ass.

 

If he doesn't care enough to talk to me and to listen to me because he is tired of talking about it....then maybe he just doesn't care enough about the relationship....that's how we got in this mess in the first place.....we did not TALK about feelings...maybe you need to remind your husband about that.....

 

There are definitely some thing where this would not work for me. For example, my then hubby's "if you just have to have sex, ask me and I'll see what I can do" was not going to cut it. Unlike dishes, he NEEDS to want to want to.

 

A scheduled conversation could definitely feel forced. Or it might help at least initially to know that at least a time was coming when they would talk.

 

I have no idea.

[xxoo]

Or maybe it could just be refraining from asking every week, and expecting an update the day after an appt.

 

Maybe the OP could reduce her asking to once a month and see if that is more productive.

[Mrs. John Adams]

only Katielee can know what is right for her....it would not work for me.....I would begin harboring resentment.....if i got a sigh...when i wanted or needed to talk about something....

 

I cannot imagine "making an appointment" but if it is right for Katielee...then it is exactly the approach she should take.

[katielee]

You guys the last time we talked was July 15th. I think he volunteered his IC appt since then, the only time he's been since July.

[Mrs. John Adams]

is that acceptable to you?

[nightmare01]

For me - having a regular weekly or monthly talk about the marriage session sounds too much like a punishment. It could be like - "ok we're going to make love at 1:35pm next Thursday. Be ready". Wouldn't be sort of intimidating and wouldn't that actually hamper truly intimate sharing?

 

I think a much better way to go about this would be to remain cognizant of your spouses feelings, and when you sense something is wrong then speaking up.

 

For example - there's LOTS of infidelity all over television. Lots of lying, and cheating... maybe someone thinks that makes for good tv.. who knows. But if the WS were to remain sensitive to their BS's body language and ticks that show up when they are triggered, all it would take is to say something along the line of "how horrible that person is to do that" or even "are you ok? I know this brings up bad memories".

 

This sort of thing could lead to an intimate and deep conversation about the BS's feelings - and even the WS's feelings if they are triggered by infidelity on the television. It cold lead to the start of a healing conversation IMO.

Edited October 1, 2015 by nightmare01

[Lion Heart]

yes.. I welcome opportunities to talk to him about my affair so he can see how my thinking has changed and maybe that would make him feel better/safer. I have worked hard.

 

Hi Katielee

 

Our roles are reversed in that WH had affairs. I'm the betrayed one.

 

Our need to "talk things through" maybe more of the stuff you and I share, both being female.

 

But the truth for me, and I do speak only for myself, which could relate to your BSs behaviours is that it's broken. It's broken now. No matter what you do nor how you change anything about yourself it won't matter. It's gone. Not your relationship but the "special" part that was only for him and you together. The specialness he may have felt before your affair about that very intimate part of your private lives, where he felt he could show ALL of his vulnerabilities and you would still love him, all of him, all the time and stay "with" him completely is gone.

 

I know it's gone for me. I'm realizing "it" in its entirety IS gone forever, especially if I stay with WH. That part was thrown away like garbage by WH and I know I will never want to show him my full vulnerability again. Look where that got me last time.

 

And as I sit and wonder what this means for me, I know it's the end. Otherwise I choose every day to deal with the person I loved and worked so hard for, had beautiful children with and chatted happily about our future together who horribly betrayed us all while. ... He was elsewhere. As far as I'm concerned he divorced me that day, just didn't inform me. Does this translate?

 

People say they go on to have more fulfilling marraiges AFTER an affair? Good for them but I can't believe it for myself. Maybe the WS is more fulfilled now with more sex with the person they overlooked to get sex elsewhere, often time and time again, and the BS gets more dinners out and better birthday presents blah blah but when that "specialness" was thrown away by one partner like the rest of the family and the life they built were of NO consequence at all? ESPECIALLY the betrayed spouse?

Does this translate?

 

It reduces the relationship, the marriage, the promises to mere meh whatever. Step aside. I want THAT AP.

 

We just weren't important ENOUGH.

 

So I guess your BH and I watch and get to watch our WSs hurry around and do the "little things" to cheer us up. We watch you work harder and work on yourself in therapy for years on end. We finally see you WILLING to talk about the train wreck you steered off a cliff. Chatting about the carraiges and all the wreckage you caused. It becomes quite sickening imho.

We would have appreciated a heads up to get off the bl**dy train thankyou!

 

Katielee I think you are asking WAY too much from your BH.

If he doesn't want to talk about your affair any more then let him escape it PLEASE! It was what YOU wanted that made YOU have an affair in the first place. Destroying your husband and marriage in the process. It's STILL ALL ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT. Take a moment and listen to what your BH wants. He's telling you! Are you listening now? No. You still think you're "entitled" to have everything you had BEFORE your A but you're not and the reason why you don't is because you threw it away as though it was of little consequence.

 

If you feel unfulfilled because of this now? Avoid an affair or give BH the heads up to get off the train.

 

I had to be blunt. If all this IC hasn't told you this, it's because the C doesn't have the empathy, skills or EXPERIENCE of dealing with betrayal. I've given it to you straight. I honestly hope it really helps your marriage. It's monstrously difficult to keep loving a person that betrayed you.

 

Lion Heart.

[katielee]

umm Lion. So because I did it too I don't get to talk about his two affairs and how they hurt me? I dont' really need to talk about what I did. But I will if he wants to - gladly. But I also have hurt from what he did and that I need to discuss.

[katielee]

It's monstrously difficult to keep loving a person that betrayed you.

 

Lion Heart.

 

so very true.

[Spectre]

So this morning I asked hubby didn't he have IC this week? He said he did yesterday. I asked is there a reason he doesnt' tell me about it? (He seriously tells me everything else going on in his day) He said he just gets tired of talking about it, he's not sure if it's helping anymore, and he told his IC that he thought we were doing pretty well. He hoped that was true. I said I thought it was but I still have bouts of anger. He said he did as well.

 

I'm on the fence about this because I am sorry your husband hurt you, but I don't know if it is necessarily right to try to make him talk to you about what he discusses in his therapy sessions. It is possible for you it helps for you to have him know some of the stuff you discuss in your sessions..but he might be wired differently.

 

I have therapy next week. I tell him when and a little about what we talked about, because I want him to KNOW ME, is that so freaking hard to listen to?

 

I would think it would be incredibly difficult for him to listen to yes. No matter what you talk about in your sessions he knows he is the main reason any of this happened. So telling him about them might be making you feel better while making him feel worse. Does he deserve that? I can't answer it, but he is the one who cheated.

 

I would just wonder though if you think he can't know you without you telling him what you are talking about in your therapy sessions? I would think the sessions are a small part of your life..despite the fact you are going to therapy because of a life changing event.

 

Here's the thing - if he doesnt' want to talk about it, the most hurtful thing in our lives - then I'm in a marriage where I have to keep my mouth shut and I am DONE with that. That's what is was like BEFORE all the affairs. And sure, we can have all the positive experiences we want but that is not meeting my need of occasionally talking.

 

I would ask though if your need for occasionally talking..if said talks need to specifically be about your therapy sessions? I'm just trying to say that..your husband most likely is aware you are still not over this. If you were over it you wouldn't be going to therapy, so he should know you are still angry at him..that it still hurts a lot. I guess I would wonder just how many times you want to hammer that fact into him?

 

I asked myself what payoff am I getting by talking about it. I want him to know I'm still hurt. Why do I want him to know that? Because maybe he'll treat me better. But he already treats me well. I don't want him to forget that I am still not good with what happened. Why? I'm sure he's not good with it either. I want him to appreciate sacrifice. He says he does. Ugh. I can't get at my core need to talk. Any advice?

 

Here we see the problem because you seem to be upset over his not wanting to talk about it, but you don't really seem sure why you want this. You want to be treated better, but then you admit he treats you well.

 

I would also ask you..how long would it really take to tell him you are still hurt? There are only so many ways to say it. It sounds like in a way you want him to keep reliving what he did over and over.

 

I can't blame you for feeling this way after being betrayed, but it seems like you want to make this work.

[xxoo]

You guys the last time we talked was July 15th. I think he volunteered his IC appt since then, the only time he's been since July.

 

I'm totally confused. So you haven't checked in about an IC appt, or progress, in over 2 months?

 

That's the only time he volunteered? Or the only time he's acknowledged going?

 

It's like Goldilocks up in here. Once a week is too frequent. Never in 2 months is too infrequent. Seems like you should be able to bring it up the topic of counseling once a month without too much resistance, and without it being a Scheduled Talk. Some middle ground?

[katielee]

is that acceptable to you?

 

well, what is the time when one should stop speaking about it, especially 3.5 years after his two affairs and 5.5 after mine? I have no idea. For him - we're done speaking about the affairs. For me, oh no we're not.

[katielee]

I'm totally confused. So you haven't checked in about an IC appt, or progress, in over 2 months?

 

That's the only time he volunteered? Or the only time he's acknowledged going?

 

 

yes, but I believe that IS the only time he went. We don't go that often.

no we haven't discussed in two months, we are concentrating on positive experiences I guess.