questioveritas Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 Hello everyone, I'm a 20 year old woman and my fiance with whom I was in a relationship for 2 years just left me. Or rather he left me a month ago, but it has been a blur. It feels like yesterday. It hasn't been getting better, it's been getting worse and worse. We loved each other so much. We were going to get married. We told each other we love each other many times a day, we vowed eternity to each other daily. He told me I could hold on to him, he said he belonged to me and would be with me forever, he told me I could trust him. I had such a difficult life before I met him. I was hurt by everyone who was close to me. I could not trust people, but I met him and overtime I learned to trust again. I learned to love other people. I was so happy. My life was beautiful and full of meaning because of him. I was so certain of our future, we were going to go to college and then marry and have children. Oh... :'( But now he's gone. And he says that even though he still loves me we probably will never marry and have a future together. Religion is one of the problems. When he met me I was an atheist/agnostic and he was Catholic. But we fell in love nonetheless and promised forever to each other. We debated a lot about the existence of God and religion, and a year or so after meeting I started to think that perhaps God exists after all, and another half a year after that I decided that I would convert to Catholicsm. Things seemed so wonderful. The only problem is that I am not a very mentally stable person. I've suffered from anxiety, obessiveness, depression for a while, and this interacted very badly with my Catholic faith. I began to live in constant fear of sin, and I was terrified of hell. This made my life a living hell. There were times when I felt like I couldn't avoid sin, would make giant lists of sins to confess, and would throw myself on the ground and hit myself in frustration. It was horrible. I saw my sanity slipping away and I realized that I needed to stop believing in hell to survive. So I started reading atheist/agnostic arguments again, and started to seriously doubt my faith. I am an agnostic/theist now. My mental illness was very difficult for my fiance to deal with. I made life very difficult for him in the past half a year or so of our relationship. We were constantly arguing. There were times when I blamed him for introducing me to Catholicism, and even times when I told him I regretted meeting him. I hate myself for saying those things. In the end he ended up being unable to handle it and left me. Right now he wants to be friends, but he doesn't think we will ever be able to marry. He is Catholic, and Catholics believe in dating only for the purpose of discerning marriage. So he feels he can't be in a relationship with me unless he thinks he can marry me in the future. He doesn't think he can marry me because I don't share his faith and because my mental problems would not make me someone who can be a parent and a supportive spouse. I want to do everything I can to overcome my mental problems. I'm going to a psychiatrist in a week and I am going to do everything I can to recover. The only problem is that I just can't bear him having left me. I still love him so much. I feel that the vows I made to him (or rather the vows we both made to God) are binding forever. I will never be able to love another man or give myself to another man. I already belong to him. But he doesn't want me. :'( :'( :'( I feel like I don't have anything to fight for. It's ironic because if he was still in a relationship with me I would have the strength to recover and to fight the mental illness, but because he's left me I don't have this strength and I feel like I am spiralling down to a place with no way out. It's terrifying. I don't know what I am going to do. I don't know how I'm going to survive. Please tell me if you have any words of advice for me.
Devildog Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 Hmm, so many things to talk about. First and foremost, your strength comes from inside you. Not from anyone else. The other person might be the inspiration for finding the strength, but it still comes from within. Yes, you can deal with the problems you suffer from, without him. Are these psychological disorders you mentioned something that has been diagnosed and that you are getting treated for? Honestly most people with problems refuse to accept they have a problem and don't get treatment. You might want to duck here, because the bible thumpers here might start hurling brimstone at me for this next part. Now, I'm a non-practicing Catholic. I went to 12 years of catholic school, which is why I'm not a practicing Catholic. Try to remember that all religious text was written by humans to give them answers to questions they couldn't explain. It is a comfort device to soothe the mind when there are no definitive answers. If that doesn't soothe your mind, here is one of my favorite ways to mess with the devoted religious. Let's look at the vision of Heaven most people have. A paradise where you are surrounded by all of those you love, where you have eternal happiness. Now, say there is someone you really care about who might not have been very good. But you still love this person. If Heaven is a place where you are blissfully happy, wouldn't that person have to be there in Heaven with you? Now you figure that no matter how evil a person may be, there has to be at least one heaven worthy person who loved them, so therefore Hell would either be empty or non-existent due to Heaven's very nature. And if you are still not comforted, Hell isn't so bad, I got a corner office there with a great view of the lake of fire. You will get through this though. Just about everyone here has been through something like you are experiencing. And with time you will find yourself getting stronger and happier. You will survive and get through this and find even more happiness down the road.
XNemesisX Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 Part of the reason my ex and I ended was over religion. I am deist/agnostic and he is full blown fanatical Southern Baptist Christian (or so he likes to think) Well, that's a whole other story we won't even get into right now. Time and time again, I see just how detrimental religion can be. It starts wars, end relationships, ugh the horror. Consider yourself lucky that you got away from someone who would be so crazy and fanatical over religion. Could you see yourself really being in that kind of relationship forever? Someone who puts this human created religion before all else? He is creating his own misery, and indirectly - yours too! (at least for the moment) You will find love again. Despite your psychological problems, which I understand, you will be happy again. I still won't say that happiness is found completely within. We are social animals and we *need* companionship and love. But you will find all of these again. It just takes time. When you meet the person you are really supposed to be wtih, you will look back at this time in your life and laugh. You will be THANKFUL this relationship ended because had it not end, you would not be wtih the person you eventually will be with. Stay strong, and don't let anyone get you down so much that you feel like ending your life. I just posted a response to someone else feeling suicidal over a breakup. I will say the same to you that I said to her. What if you killed yourself when only days later you would have met the real love of your life? Better yet, what if there IS an afterlife afterall and you are no happier after death than before (hypothetically speaking). Sure would suck wouldn't it? Pain and suffering is part of the human existence. You will get through it. All pain is temporary...happiness will come your way before you know it and then you will look back on this and think how crazy it was for you to consider ending your life over someone like this...
ReluctantRomeo Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 Phew, Devildog. Your posts are usually excellent, but someone else's thread is not the opportunity to work out your problems with Catholicism. Or mine, for that matter Same to Nemesis. Questioveritas, I'm really sorry to hear your story. Please hold on - as Nemesis says, pain and depression do pass. Especially if you're working out your issues with a good psychiatrist. The process can be very slow and sad, but you will get there in the end. Is religion really the only issue with your ex? After all, he dated you in the first place when you were atheist/agnostic. And what about the vow he made before God? What was it and why isn't he sticking to this? Would your ex be willing to accept a compromise? Two of my best friends are with Catholic girls. They can't swallow the Catholicism, but both have found that they can cope with various brands of protestantism. Especially since many protestant churches have a different balance between sin and grace.
RecordProducer Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 Originally posted by questioveritas Catholics believe in dating only for the purpose of discerning marriage. :lmao: :lmao: Which mental illness do you have? Stupidity is not a mental illness! Just kidding, just kidding... trying to cheer you up a bit. Look, you're so very young and you'll love a hundred more times in your life and be hurt and loved and dumped and happy and sad... You will earn more self-respect, emotional stability, and optimism as life goes on. The first few months to a year after the break-up are the most difficult. But the pain does go away and after a while we almost feel like we never loved this person. If you really believe you have a mental disorder, going to a therapist is crucial. Don't be afraid; millions of people live with all kinds of neurosis and treat them medically with a great success.
tokyo Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 I found Devildog's outlook on heaven and hell to be pretty neat. Your fiancé is the wrong person for you, there are some things that are really hard to overcome, I count religion among them as the babies suck it with their mother's milk. If he's happy with it and has no doubts, you won't be able to change his views on relationships in the next future. It would be nice if he was there to support you through therapy. I assume of your problems is the fear of being alone and that you're not independent enough. If he was a stable person he might help you to get through it, to provide you with enough strength to overcome your problems, while showing you where the borders of his support are. If he isn't that strong or mature, you will end up clinging to him and use him as a crutch, because he's giving in to your emotional demands. In the end he will be of no use for you and very likely he will finally retreat and run from your clinginess. If he's not there to help you, you will have to do it alone. Don't expect anybody to be there to help you, it's great when there is someone to support you, but when he's not there, you must find the strength to do what needs to be done alone.
ReluctantRomeo Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 Originally posted by kooky I found Devildog's outlook on heaven and hell to be pretty neat. Troublemaker. You're not too far away for me to come and kick your butt
tokyo Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 Originally posted by ReluctantRomeo Troublemaker. You're not too far away for me to come and kick your butt How romantic you are, my Romeo. There may or there may not be a god, I'm sure though that religion has been used many times to be used as a mean to keep people under control with the prospect of eternal damnation and searing pains. I sometimes wonder if there's a god or not and if he minds that I don't go to church, I mean, you never know. I usually remind myself that the idea of having people suffering not to be conform with the fundamental concept of love and forgiveness that you will find in the Christian religion. I also believe (I don't know why though) that any kind of punishment for my sins will meet me in this life, not the next one. Maybe it's like this in order to preserve the educational purpose, where's the fun to get your butt kicked in your next life without having any clue for what? Questioveritas, look at religion as something to comfort you and put all the nasty stuff aside, after all it's just a collection of the writings of human beings. Take the good and wise parts and leave the rest for whoever wants to believe in hell. I can imagine that the idea of all the alleged horrors that await you after death scare you to death, but if I understand it right, that's not what being Christian is about. Start your therapy and remind yourself that even when religion wasn't such an important factor for your boyfriend, your mental sanity surely is. You need to stability for your relationship, but most of all for yourself.
flsgirl Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 I'm sorry that you're hurting right now. It's awful. I think all of us in here understand how you feel, that's why we're here too. I'm not going to even comment on the religion subject because to each is own. It's pretty obvious that was a huge problem is your relationship. What I'm going to say is about you as a person. You can't truly give yourself wholeheartedly to someone until you're happy with who you are. It sounds like you have some issues to work out. Therapy is excellent. I did it for awhile myself when my breakup happened. It helped me do a lot of self-exploring. I'm a completely different person now than when I was before I started going. Remember too that you are so young! You haven't even lived a quarter of your life yet. You should be out in the world trying to figure out what you're all about and what you want and what you believe. This comes with having different experiences with the world and the people you meet. One big lesson in life that I learned is that you can't depend on a person for your happiness. You'll never be happy if you do. You have to depend on yourself. That's what makes you strong. In the meantime, surround yourself with loved ones and keep busy. Just remember that you rock and you will find someone someday that will fit you perfectly. Keep us updated on you. Take care of yourself and hang in there
Author questioveritas Posted May 18, 2005 Author Posted May 18, 2005 Thank you everyone for your responses. I agree that strength must come from inside of myself, but it's very hard when my whole world just fell apart. Perhaps it was a mistake to make such an intense commitment, to trust, and to love in the first place. I was talking to my dad about it, and he seemed to say that I shouldn't believe when people make such vows, because things change and they end up not keeping them. That was very hard for me to hear, because it's equivalent to saying that love and commitment aren't real. I don't know how I will ever be able to trust people again. My ex-fiance and I saw ourselves as one being, we were convinced we'd spend our whole lives together. There were times when we asked God to marry us right then and there (I'm pretty sure more than once, he remembers only once). There was always the belief in the permanence of our relationship. We even made vows similar to what marriage vows sound like "Dear God, we vow to love, honor, serve, protect and trust each other forever" and said them very frequently for the past year or so. I never imagined that our relationship would end, but I guess the insanity got the best of us. I don't blame my fiance for leaving, I did make it very bad for him. At one point the insanity got so bad for me that I actually left him for a few hours. I don't really remember how it happened now or why, but Catholicism and the fear of hell and what I felt as being trapped by the religion were major factors. Things were so bad that I actually don't remember most of what happened at that time. Right now I don't know how I will keep on living because I feel very strongly that the vows I made to him are true and binding. I love him very much. I feel that I am his and will be his forever. It hurts a lot that he doesn't want me enough to fight for me, and just says that the chances of our being together are almost zero. I know that I have a lot of problems I need to overcome. And I know that I could overcome them if I were fighting for something worthwhile. A big problem is that now I've lost the will to live. I spent all of last night in tears and intense pain. Every minute of being aware of my existence and of having lost him is so painful that I just want to be unconscious. I'm not all that sure that this life is worth fighting for. Suppose I did heal from my illness, so what? I would still be eternally committed to and eternally in love with a man who will probably go on to marry and have a family with someone else. Is this really a future worth fighting for? Wouldn't it be much better to stop existing altogether? I guess a big problem now is that I don't really know what, if anything, comes after death. It's so strange because through all of this I realized how little we know about the nature of existence, and how the only thing one person can be absolutely sure of is that his consciousness exists. I can't even be sure that other people exist, or that the external world exists, or exists the way I perceive. For all I know every person I meet is not a real person but is just like a person I dream about. All this is very scary :( And having been abandoned in this most difficult time of my life is unbearable. Have any of you asked those distubring questions about existence? P.S. Someone asked why the vows don't mean anything to my ex-fiance anymore, and essentially he talked to a priest about it and the priest told him that the Church does not allow Catholics to make vows like that (unless they're in a labor camp in Siberia where there is no priest) and that therefore they were void from the beginning.
tokyo Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 Originally posted by questioveritas Have any of you asked those distubring questions about existence? Yup, many times. I've come to the conclusion that what matters is only how I feel about it, if I'm convinced that I did the right thing or not. You can't know if God exists or not, but you will always have yourself to judge your actions and whether you really did your best to live up to your ideals. You don't know if this is not some kind of matrix world where nothing but your consciousness exist, but you can still live as if everything was real and still taking the responsibility for the people around, because what happened if it was real indeed and not only a dream? What matters is that under these conditions you decided to realize the best decisions and to do what was necessary.
ConfusedInOC Posted May 18, 2005 Posted May 18, 2005 Originally posted by XNemesisX Time and time again, I see just how detrimental religion can be. It starts wars, end relationships, ugh the horror. Religion does not start wars or end relationships. People do. Jesus taught us to love and cherish one another. No where in the bible did Jesus say "Start wars and end relationships." In much the same way as there are Muslim terrorist, there are Christian extremist who tend to go TOO far and lose sight of God's desire for us to love one another. I know you had a bad relationship with someone who claimed to be a Christian, but I can tell from your description of his actions, he has fallen too far from God.
Author questioveritas Posted May 18, 2005 Author Posted May 18, 2005 Originally posted by kooky Yup, many times. I've come to the conclusion that what matters is only how I feel about it, if I'm convinced that I did the right thing or not. You can't know if God exists or not, but you will always have yourself to judge your actions and whether you really did your best to live up to your ideals. You don't know if this is not some kind of matrix world where nothing but your consciousness exist, but you can still live as if everything was real and still taking the responsibility for the people around, because what happened if it was real indeed and not only a dream? What matters is that under these conditions you decided to realize the best decisions and to do what was necessary. How do you feel when you think that this world might not even be real? When I first started thinking this way I was afraid that I was schizophrenic or something. It helped me a lot when my mom, who is completely sane, told me that there was a time in her life when she asked those questions too. It's so terrifying for me to not know whether things are real, and whether they are the way I perceive them to be.
Devildog Posted May 19, 2005 Posted May 19, 2005 Originally posted by questioveritas How do you feel when you think that this world might not even be real? I feel empowered by that thought. If that is indeed the case, then that means YOU are in control. You decide if you are going to be happy or sad. It means the world is indeed your oyster and you can go out and shape it any way you choose to. questioveritas, I can assure you, the feelings you have about the end of your relationship is nothing new to most people here. We all have our own little stories, some of them would probably make you feel like your's is nothing. You should look up my original thread sometime, "Marriage in Jeapordy due to male "friend" with an agenda". It a long read, over 300 posts, but it is a pretty good roadmap of how most situations like this work out. You can watch me go from where you are now, to where I got to be.
suegail Posted May 19, 2005 Posted May 19, 2005 "Let your yes be yes and your no be no." I believe that is what Jesus said, and I think what He meant is it's better to not swear oaths or take vows we probably won't keep. You had no control over your boyfriend wanting to end the relationship, and in your heart you would have wanted to stand by those vows; God does know what is in the heart, which is truly what matters. As everyone here has said, you will get through this hard time. It's hard to accept, especially considering all you've been through, but please don't consider suicide. Push that thought away with all the mental might you've got. Your life is important. You have purpose. And though you are now doubting your faith, I can tell you, God has not given up on you. Not now - - not ever. One thing you've avoided here is a distressing marriage and eventual divorce. Be glad of that, believe me. You said yourself you were constantly fighting. You were blaming him. You were attacking him verbally. You were angry, hurt, confused. Do you really think it would have gotten better had you married? I don't think so.... As they say, it's just one day at a time....don't worry, it will get better.
Author questioveritas Posted May 19, 2005 Author Posted May 19, 2005 Originally posted by Devildog I feel empowered by that thought. If that is indeed the case, then that means YOU are in control. You decide if you are going to be happy or sad. It means the world is indeed your oyster and you can go out and shape it any way you choose to. questioveritas, I can assure you, the feelings you have about the end of your relationship is nothing new to most people here. We all have our own little stories, some of them would probably make you feel like your's is nothing. You should look up my original thread sometime, "Marriage in Jeapordy due to male "friend" with an agenda". It a long read, over 300 posts, but it is a pretty good roadmap of how most situations like this work out. You can watch me go from where you are now, to where I got to be. It's encouraging to see that people who've seriously questioned the reality of our experience of the external world are sane and stable. (You are sane, right? ) I've read some writings of philosophers like Descartes earlier today and it's encouraging to see that I'm not the only one to think these terrifying thoughts. (Unless of course no one except me exists! ) Could you give me more advice about thinking this way, and perhaps tell me more about your experiences? Thanks again for all your posts!
Author questioveritas Posted May 19, 2005 Author Posted May 19, 2005 Originally posted by suegail "Let your yes be yes and your no be no." I believe that is what Jesus said, and I think what He meant is it's better to not swear oaths or take vows we probably won't keep. You had no control over your boyfriend wanting to end the relationship, and in your heart you would have wanted to stand by those vows; God does know what is in the heart, which is truly what matters. As everyone here has said, you will get through this hard time. It's hard to accept, especially considering all you've been through, but please don't consider suicide. Push that thought away with all the mental might you've got. Your life is important. You have purpose. And though you are now doubting your faith, I can tell you, God has not given up on you. Not now - - not ever. One thing you've avoided here is a distressing marriage and eventual divorce. Be glad of that, believe me. You said yourself you were constantly fighting. You were blaming him. You were attacking him verbally. You were angry, hurt, confused. Do you really think it would have gotten better had you married? I don't think so.... As they say, it's just one day at a time....don't worry, it will get better. Thanks for responding I agree with you that if we had married without me making some very serious changes in my life, the marriage would have been very bad for him, and it would have been very unfair to him. I also would not have been a competent parent and would have damaged the children we would have had. In a way, I am glad that this whole thing happened because it made me aware of my problems and of the very serious changes I need to make. My hope now is to overcome these problems and to reconcile with him. I would not expect him to come back to me unless I truly could give him the kind of life that he deserves, and right now I can't do that. The one truth that stands is that we still love each other very much, and we both want things to work out. Although today he told me that he is seriously thinking of the priesthood, and if you don't know Catholic priests take celibacy vows! :(
Devildog Posted May 19, 2005 Posted May 19, 2005 Originally posted by questioveritas It's encouraging to see that people who've seriously questioned the reality of our experience of the external world are sane and stable. (You are sane, right? ) I've read some writings of philosophers like Descartes earlier today and it's encouraging to see that I'm not the only one to think these terrifying thoughts. (Unless of course no one except me exists! ) Could you give me more advice about thinking this way, and perhaps tell me more about your experiences? Thanks again for all your posts! My Counsellor thought I was sane when she told me I didn't need to come back anymore! I do in fact believe there is a higher power, but I don't think any religion has the right concept of that higher power. We will use the Catholic Church as an example, does it make sense that God would rather you go to some man made structure and donate 10% of your income weekly in order to gain entry to Heaven? Or would He rather you spend some time out in his creation to celebrate and enjoy his works? I think if there is an afterlife, as long as you were a good person who was considerate and helpful of other people, you would have no problem getting into "Heaven". As far as the concept of God that pays particular interest to our struggles, no, I can't believe that. I'm 30 years old, I have lost a brother to suicide when he was 20, a brother -in-law that died in a car accident when he was 22, an infant daughter that we had to take off life support after 11 days of a life consisting of tubes, drugs and machines, followed a few months later by my now XW deciding she would twist the knife in my heart and get involved with an old crush from High School and destroy the rest of my world. So for me to believe in the Christian concept of God means I have to believe he wants to see how much misery and suffering I can take before I stop getting back up. So I discard that concept.
Author questioveritas Posted May 19, 2005 Author Posted May 19, 2005 Originally posted by Devildog My Counsellor thought I was sane when she told me I didn't need to come back anymore! I do in fact believe there is a higher power, but I don't think any religion has the right concept of that higher power. We will use the Catholic Church as an example, does it make sense that God would rather you go to some man made structure and donate 10% of your income weekly in order to gain entry to Heaven? Or would He rather you spend some time out in his creation to celebrate and enjoy his works? I think if there is an afterlife, as long as you were a good person who was considerate and helpful of other people, you would have no problem getting into "Heaven". As far as the concept of God that pays particular interest to our struggles, no, I can't believe that. I'm 30 years old, I have lost a brother to suicide when he was 20, a brother -in-law that died in a car accident when he was 22, an infant daughter that we had to take off life support after 11 days of a life consisting of tubes, drugs and machines, followed a few months later by my now XW deciding she would twist the knife in my heart and get involved with an old crush from High School and destroy the rest of my world. So for me to believe in the Christian concept of God means I have to believe he wants to see how much misery and suffering I can take before I stop getting back up. So I discard that concept. Thank you again What are your reasons for believing that the world is real? I've been thinking about it a little, and my main reasons so far are that I can't control what happens in the world with my mind, that the world behaves in a predictable manner, and also that my mind evolved from being a child's mind that didn't know anything, to one that knows more. It's hard to believe that it could have created everything on its own without outside input. On an offside note, have you ever considered that if your mind is the only thing that exists, and that the world is a creation of your mind, you would essentially be God, even a human incarnation of him! But anyway... these questions really bother me. Sometimes it makes me think that I might be going crazy, and makes me wish I never asked these questions. Have you ever thought or felt this way? I think I am leaning toward belief in a higher power as well. I believe in a first-cause, origin of everything type of God. I also think that materialism can't explain the existence of free will. It's hard for me to believe that this God is involved in human lives. Pointless human suffering is one of the reasons, another is the apparent non-involvement of God. If God bothered to become man and to die for us, why didn't he make sure to leave better evidence? If he cares about being present every time in the Eucharist as Catholics believe, why not make his presence obvious? It would be much more effective for getting people to believe, follow him and presumably get to heaven, and supposedly that is his goal. But then again, God could have reasons that are beyond us... The things that happened to you are horrible. I'm very sorry, and I'm glad you are doing well right now. You must be a very strong person to have made it through all of that.
Devildog Posted May 19, 2005 Posted May 19, 2005 Wow, not that is a deep, intriguing question. There are literally millions of examples as to why I doubt this world is simply a creation of my mind and everyone else are just props. First and foremost, why would I intentionally inflict the kind of suffering on myself that I have experienced? And there are far too many things I don't understand about the world and everything in it. Take all the varieties of the internal combustion engine. I know a little bit about how it works and can perform a good deal of maintenance on my own vehicles, but the intricacies escape me, and with all the varieties, doesn't seem likely I would have created all that on my own. And seriously, have you seen some of these vehicles today? No way would my mind create a shoebox on wheels like some of these vehicles look. Also, the advancement and development of literally everything that exists. Why not start with the perfect model rather than develop and improve as time goes on. Like you said, external forces have to have a role in things like this. Asking these kinds of questions doesn't make you crazy, it is a sign of an intelligent, deep thinker. That isn't a bad thing. There are just some things we as human beings cannot wrap our brains around. The limitlessness of space is the one that bakes my brain. How can something be without end? There has to be an end, and there has to be something beyond that end. Many people use religion as the answer to those kinds of questions. Others just accept that there is no logical answer to the question.
Author questioveritas Posted May 19, 2005 Author Posted May 19, 2005 Originally posted by Devildog Wow, not that is a deep, intriguing question. There are literally millions of examples as to why I doubt this world is simply a creation of my mind and everyone else are just props. First and foremost, why would I intentionally inflict the kind of suffering on myself that I have experienced? And there are far too many things I don't understand about the world and everything in it. Take all the varieties of the internal combustion engine. I know a little bit about how it works and can perform a good deal of maintenance on my own vehicles, but the intricacies escape me, and with all the varieties, doesn't seem likely I would have created all that on my own. And seriously, have you seen some of these vehicles today? No way would my mind create a shoebox on wheels like some of these vehicles look. Also, the advancement and development of literally everything that exists. Why not start with the perfect model rather than develop and improve as time goes on. Like you said, external forces have to have a role in things like this. Asking these kinds of questions doesn't make you crazy, it is a sign of an intelligent, deep thinker. That isn't a bad thing. There are just some things we as human beings cannot wrap our brains around. The limitlessness of space is the one that bakes my brain. How can something be without end? There has to be an end, and there has to be something beyond that end. Many people use religion as the answer to those kinds of questions. Others just accept that there is no logical answer to the question. It's so scary that losing faith in Catholicism is practically making me lose faith in the reality of the physical world. Being obsessive doesn't help because right now this is all I am thinking about. I am just really hoping that the psychiatrist will help so that I stop thinking about it and regain certain faith in the reality of the physical world. I guess right now it seems that it's probable that the external world and other people are real... but it's not certain, and one can never know for sure. I really don't want to go crazy or end up killing myself. Right now thinking about it makes me want to throw up. There are definitely things that human beings can't answer in principle. And this is so scary. I never knew being an agnostic could be so terrifying! I can definitely see the security of the definite answers given by religion. (Unless one of the answers is that you'll burn for an eternity, in which case it's pretty troubling too.) Concerning the limitlessness of space, for me thinking about a finite but boundless thing helps a little... for example, when you think of the *surface* of a sphere, you see that it is finite and yet it has no end. You will never find a barrier if you were a 2 dimensional shape walking along the surface. It's possible that space could be in the shape of a 4 dimensional sphere of sorts, and that we'd all be living on the surface. But I guess this is not a perfect analogy because spheres exist inside space... Eh, I don't know! I really wish my ex-fiance was with me telling me that even if he's not real he still loves me and will be by my side forever.
Devildog Posted May 20, 2005 Posted May 20, 2005 Why is it that questioning the relatively new to you concept of Catholicism has caused you to doubt the existence of everything else? Did that never occur to you before? How did you deal with it if so? I can tell you I exsist and am not a figment of your imagination, but how do I prove that? If I am a figment of your imagination, you would be able to decide how I appear physically.
Author questioveritas Posted May 20, 2005 Author Posted May 20, 2005 Originally posted by Devildog Why is it that questioning the relatively new to you concept of Catholicism has caused you to doubt the existence of everything else? Did that never occur to you before? How did you deal with it if so? I can tell you I exsist and am not a figment of your imagination, but how do I prove that? If I am a figment of your imagination, you would be able to decide how I appear physically. I think because after I rejected Catholicism I started looking for other answers and I realized that there weren't any. It ended up at a point where I can't be sure of anything except the existence of my mind. It never really occured to me before. I was aware of the philosophies being out there and I understood them intellectually but I never took them seriously. Now I'm terrified they might be true and am obsessing about them. I really hope this goes away. The agrument you gave is a good one... My consciousness can't control the world, it doesn't understand a lot of the world... Plus, what created my consciousness, right? It's all so confusing. When I have dreams the dreams feel real without being real, my mind creates those dreams, what if it creates whis world as well? The people in my dreams aren't real, what if the people here aren't real either? It's all very confusing. I'm scared because this sort of thinking just sounds so crazy.
Devildog Posted May 20, 2005 Posted May 20, 2005 Do you believe you could possibly know everything there is to know? That isn't possible. So why does not having answers to this question bother you? And even if the world is a figment of your imagination, what has changed? What will change? If we are all figments of your imagination, we are still here even though you question where we come from. Years from now, when your own existence on this plane ends, what does it matter? If we are not real so what if we stop existing as well? I think your best course of action is to find a belief system, not neccesarily a religion, that gives you comfort. Be it reincarnation, an afterlife like the Native Americans believed in or whatever. Your answer to what happens at the end is just as valid as anyone elses.
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