Hardcore feminst and too independent

[Maggie4]

And similar events have not happened before? Then it's not really about independence. She was probably already mad at you for something that happened between you, completely unrelated to feminism. It's got to be something else.

[losangelena]

Yes, I'm really irked that FF trotted out that word. I bet he didn't realize it was going to spawn to anti-feminist threads.

 

Gee, thanks a lot, guy.

[Gaeta]

But, she still has deep seated fears of allowing herself to be completely vulnerable and actually rely on someone else.

 

 

Here you guys are talking big philosophic principals, vulnerability and dependence.

 

Lets go back to basic ok. It was a hurt ankle and luggage.

 

She was mean and inconsiderate to you, period.

 

There is no deep childhood fear of vulnerability at play here. It's not like she lost her job and you offered to financially support her and that got her all worked up. NO.

 

You're finding excuses to explain her rudeness toward you. You simply wanted to be kind to her, the same way you would have been kind to a sister, a mother, a neighbor, even a stranger.

 

You were being 'human' and that turned her off.

[katiegrl]

This sounds pretty cynical to me. I mean when you see a person you care about w/a possible broken ankle that can't even stand up and is crying tears of pain, it would be cruel to just stand there and watch that happen. So for me, it has nothing to do w/control at all. It's just being a decent human being to help someone in need.

 

This may have been mentioned already (have not read the entire thread yet)....but common courtesy would dictate that you would wish to help ANYONE with an injured ankle stand up, NOT just someone you cared about!

 

 

That is crazy.... refusing help getting up when you just injured your ankle and are in pain? Come on now. If she had been alone and Joe Schmo came along, would she have refused HIS help too?

 

 

I dunno about this chick ff....this goes way beyond being independent and a feminist.

 

 

I am wondering is she is rebelling against what she perceives as YOU being somewhat controlling.

 

 

You are definitely NOT controlling (not in this situation anyway)....but not knowing how you guys have interacted together up to this point...could it be possible that she views you as somewhat controlling yourself and is now rebelling against that by refusing your help?

 

 

Just a thought, cause her reaction here seems very over the top to me....and would indicate there is more going on with her....other than her being independent.... and fear of being "too vulnerable."

 

 

Like you said, she has NO problem being vulnerable in bed.... so why would she be fearful of appearing too vulnerable by accepting help getting up after just injuring her foot?

 

 

Makes no sense.

Edited September 24, 2015 by katiegrl

[Grumpybutfun]

Once again, this is about vulnerability....not feminism. The fact that you ascribe it to women wanting to be equal really says a lot about your view of women in general. Your gf was vulnerable, and due to something in her past, and your attitude she didn't feel safe in order to be vulnerable with you. That is your issue. She felt unsafe with you to feel vulnerable. You might want to work on that instead of blaming your inability to get your gf to trust you on an equal rights movements that has been redefined by sexists as man hating in order to discredit it due to their own fears and insecurities.

Communicate with your gf.....find out why you do not make her feel safe or just give up and allow other men here to call her a feminazi (offensive ugly label and not even remotely correlated) for your shortcomings. Take some responsibility for your actions or reactions which caused your gf to not see you are trustworthy and different from men in her past in a year of dating. We are snippy when we are scared....anger is the bodyguard to fear. She told you she felt vulnerable and you reacted with some nonsense based on a political and socio- economic movement.

Good luck,

Grumps

[losangelena]

Once again, this is about vulnerability....not feminism. The fact that you ascribe it to women wanting to be equal really says a lot about your view of women in general. Your gf was vulnerable, and due to something in her past, and your attitude she didn't feel safe in order to be vulnerable with you. That is your issue. She felt unsafe with you to feel vulnerable. You might want to work on that instead of blaming your inability to get your gf to trust you on an equal rights movements that has been redefined by sexists as man hating in order to discredit it due to their own fears and insecurities.

Communicate with your gf.....find out why you do not make her feel safe or just give up and allow other men here to call her a feminazi (offensive ugly label and not even remotely correlated) for your shortcomings. Take some responsibility for your actions or reactions which caused your gf to not see you are trustworthy and different from men in her past in a year of dating. We are snippy when we are scared....anger is the bodyguard to fear. She told you she felt vulnerable and you reacted with some nonsense based on a political and socio- economic movement.

Good luck,

Grumps

 

I am so glad you said this, sincerely.

 

A million likes to you, grumps!!

[guest569]

I'm a total feminist, gender roles are BS. but this is more about her being stubborn and refusing help. That is pretty extreme too, damn. Being independent and not depending on anyone, thats fine. But those people who cant accept help cause they're strong all the time.. So what are you going to do?

Edited September 24, 2015 by smiley1

[Woggle]

This is somebody who was burned once and is making you pay for it. I would say that you have no obligation to jump into a hole that another man dug.

[katiegrl]

I'm a total feminist, gender roles are BS. but this is more about her being stubborn and refusing help. That is pretty extreme too, damn. Being independent and not depending on anyone, thats fine. But those people who cant accept help cause they're strong all the time.. So what are you going to do?

 

 

I think there is more to it smiley.... because as I said in previous post, if she had been alone and Joe Schmo came along, I highly doubt she would have copped the same attitude and refused HIS help.

 

 

And why is this "vulnerability" just showing up now....after months of dating?

 

 

This is definitely something within her relationship with fitnessfan specifically.

 

 

Whether she perceives him as being controlling and is rebelling, or she fears being vulnerable with HIM, like grumps said....it's definitely something that needs to be addressed if they are to survive as a couple IMO.

[losangelena]

I honestly think they both reacted badly because they were on vacation and probably felt a bit smothered with each other. Yes, she reacted badly (though, to be fair, sometimes if I fall, etc, I just need a moment alone), but he maybe took it a bit too personally, too.

 

But I agree they need to talk about it. Of course!

[katiegrl]

I honestly think they both reacted badly because they were on vacation and probably felt a bit smothered with each other. Yes, she reacted badly (though, to be fair, sometimes if I fall, etc, I just need a moment alone), but he maybe took it a bit too personally, too.

 

But I agree they need to talk about it. Of course!

 

I hope that's all it is...

 

 

ff, how have things been since you returned?

[katiegrl]

 

1) She had a NASTY fall @ the Lincoln Park Zoo. Her ankle might actually be broken. Knowing she won't be able to stand, I go to help her up to take weight off it. She refuses. I insist. She keeps telling me to leave her alone. So I finally say "You're hurt. So shut up and let me help you". She finally relents, and after I get her to her feet, I put her arm over my shoulder to take even more weight off to get to the nearest bench. She fights me the whole way.

 

2) Coming home on the plane, she was in front of me in the boarding line. Hobbling along. So I say "Sit down and rest babe. I'll put your bag up with mine. She insists on doing it herself. Then she tries to take my bag out of my hands and put mine up too. So I say "No thanks, I can handle my own bag". This of course lead to an argument on the plane.

 

 

 

Man I'm all caught up in this thread now....lol

 

 

Just went back to read original OP.

 

 

ff, luv ya man, but your response in No. 1 was really strong. I might have been somewhat put off by that too... I mean "shut up and let me help you"? Yeah was harsh.

 

 

No. 2 was a little bossy. Not controlling per se, but again it could have been the tip of the iceberg, assuming you treat her this way a lot (with kid gloves), which I don't know.

 

 

I enjoy being taken care of from time to time, when I'm sick and stuff, but one thing I hate is being coddled or babied....and she may have perceived your attempts to help as just that...which might have rattled her nerves a bit....causing her to snap at you.

 

 

Just a thought...

Edited September 24, 2015 by katiegrl

[Nikki Sahagin]

I'm a hardcore feminist but I LOVE leaning on my partner. My boyfriend and my dad/brother are the only men I will lean on and trust so I don't think is about your girlfriend being a feminist.

 

 

I think she is scared to rely on you for some reason. Maybe something in her past? Have you ever spoken with her to maybe see if she has some trust issues/control issues and if so how they materialised?

 

 

I think the root of this is that she has been let down/hurt badly and feels if she stays in control she will be safe.

 

 

One of my friends never lets a man do anything before her because she once had one boyfriend who treated her like GOLD and then when she leant on him began abusing her. Since then she depends on men for NOTHING. She just doesn't trust them.

 

 

Obviously they are two different people so this will be different for your girlfriend but I think it's worth exploring.

[pteromom]

I think there is more to her reaction than you simply trying to help her up. You admit you are more traditional, so maybe this has played out in other ways in your relationship so she was hyper-sensitive to your insistence to help.

 

In the future, the correct way to handle it is this:

 

"Would you like some help?"

 

If she says sure, then help her.

 

If she says no, then respect her answer.

 

That's really all there is to it. When you feel that pull to be the man, ask her.

 

Though - if feeling "needed" is important to you, this may not be the woman for you. It's a matter of whether you can appreciate the benefits and learn to let go of your preconceptions.

[Gaeta]

I caught people saying things like you've been dating a year or for months. I don't know where they got that. You met this woman this summer. As it even been 3 months since you started dating?

 

I just find it awful behavior. No matter her issues you don't lash at people. If she does that at the very beginning of this relationship, I hate to imagine what's to come.

[Oregon_Dude]

She sounds like a total type A pain in the *ss.

 

People are right when they say this has nothing to do with feminism. It has to do with her being controlling, mean, and still affected by something in her past.

 

Up to you if you want to deal with this childish behavior indefinitely. Me, I like a nice woman who wants my help and isn't all about leading the way, all the time.

[fitnessfan365]

Once again, this is about vulnerability....not feminism. The fact that you ascribe it to women wanting to be equal really says a lot about your view of women in general. Your gf was vulnerable, and due to something in her past, and your attitude she didn't feel safe in order to be vulnerable with you. That is your issue. She felt unsafe with you to feel vulnerable. You might want to work on that instead of blaming your inability to get your gf to trust you on an equal rights movements that has been redefined by sexists as man hating in order to discredit it due to their own fears and insecurities.

Communicate with your gf.....find out why you do not make her feel safe or just give up and allow other men here to call her a feminazi (offensive ugly label and not even remotely correlated) for your shortcomings. Take some responsibility for your actions or reactions which caused your gf to not see you are trustworthy and different from men in her past in a year of dating. We are snippy when we are scared....anger is the bodyguard to fear. She told you she felt vulnerable and you reacted with some nonsense based on a political and socio- economic movement.

Good luck,

Grumps

 

My GF has had a lot of bad experiences in her past w/dating as well as a tough childhood. So she's had to rely on herself from a very young age until now. But she also stressed on the plane that she never wants to be fully submissive to any man or ever give up control to where she has to lean on someone (it's her safety net). She also added that she wants both of us to have equal responsibility. So a lot of the things she says seem to point towards feminism IMO.

 

But I have admitted multiple flaws of mine in this thread and never claimed that I am perfect. I'm too stubborn, I have an issue w/authority, I have a hard time letting go of things quickly, etc.. So I definitely have my own issues that I am dealing with. Ironically, my GF are pretty similar in that respect. We both like doing things our own way, have a hard time asking for help, etc.. However, w/her part it's more deep rooted w/her having trust issues from people in her life that've let her down. She tells me on a constant basis that I've helped her break down a lot of her walls. She's also fully submissive in the bedroom now. She always preferred being a sexual Dom/aggressor, but discovered w/me she enjoys being a sexual submissive 10x more. But that definitely took some trust building to get there.

 

Finally, my GF and I communicate a lot and don't hide anything from each other. We already talked today about it. Also, today she needed to do a bit of grocery shopping but her ankle is still terrible. So I had her send me a list and I went to the store for her. The fact that she let me help her on something felt good.

[xxoo]

My GF and I just had our first vacation together in Chicago. GREAT city and a lot of fun. But it did put some doubt in my mind. I've always known she was independent and a bit of a feminist. But until this trip, I had no idea just how extreme it was. She never wanted to take my advice..on anything. She never wanted my help..on anything. On activities, she'd constantly try to dictate which way we went, what I should look at, or walk out in front of me to try and lead. Two extreme cases :

 

1) She had a NASTY fall @ the Lincoln Park Zoo. Her ankle might actually be broken. Knowing she won't be able to stand, I go to help her up to take weight off it. She refuses. I insist. She keeps telling me to leave her alone. So I finally say "You're hurt. So shut up and let me help you". She finally relents, and after I get her to her feet, I put her arm over my shoulder to take even more weight off to get to the nearest bench. She fights me the whole way.

 

Have you asked what she wanted in that moment? You insisted, but she was hurt. What did she want? Maybe just time to stay put and process. I'd be curt with anyone "insisting" I do anything (even get up with their help) if I were very hurt and trying to process the pain and injury.

 

I recently heard that we (all of us) make more assumptions about our loved ones than with strangers. We assume we know what they're thinking, because we assume we know them so well, but in reality we can't intuit what they are thinking any better than we can with strangers. With strangers, we're more likely to stop and wonder, "What is she thinking? Why is she acting this way?" With loved ones, we assume we know what they are thinking and why they are acting that way. What assumptions did you make in this situation, and were they correct?

[fitnessfan365]

I caught people saying things like you've been dating a year or for months. I don't know where they got that. You met this woman this summer. As it even been 3 months since you started dating?

 

I just find it awful behavior. No matter her issues you don't lash at people. If she does that at the very beginning of this relationship, I hate to imagine what's to come.

 

Yeah we definitely haven't been dating a year. People were thrown off by the term "anniversary". I said we were going to be celebrating the anniversary of one of our first dates. As a whole, we've been together going on four months now (in a few weeks). Did she overreact to me helping her w/her ankle? Absolutely. I'm normally very calm and rarely lose my temper. But after her display w/the injury, it was the only thing I could think of to say to snap her back to her senses. That she had a possible broken ankle and could not stand up or walk on her own.

 

Have you asked what she wanted in that moment? You insisted, but she was hurt. What did she want? Maybe just time to stay put and process. I'd be curt with anyone "insisting" I do anything (even get up with their help) if I were very hurt and trying to process the pain and injury.

 

She was sitting on the ground in tears of pain for at least ten minutes. So I just tried to console her as much as I could. Then when she was going to attempt to get up, I knew she'd never be able to put that much weight on it. So I offered help. She turned it down, so I let her try a few times. But when she couldn't even get up, that's when I insisted and she started refusing my help repeatedly. So finally the only thing I could think of to snap her out of it, was to tell her to shut up and let me help. I think she was partially in a state of shock b/c of what happened to be honest.

 

ff, luv ya man, but your response in No. 1 was really strong. I might have been somewhat put off by that too... I mean "shut up and let me help you"? Yeah was harsh.

 

 

No. 2 was a little bossy. Not controlling per se, but again it could have been the tip of the iceberg, assuming you treat her this way a lot (with kid gloves), which I don't know.

 

 

I enjoy being taken care of from time to time, when I'm sick and stuff, but one thing I hate is being coddled or babied....and she may have perceived your attempts to help as just that...which might have rattled her nerves a bit....causing her to snap at you.

 

 

Just a thought...

 

Hey Katie. Yeah definitely no kid gloves here. I always give her room to do what she wants, but I'll step in and offer help/advice when I can or playfully keep her in line when she does something that contradicts what she says. But as I said above, I tried to console her while she was on the ground in pain. Finally she said she wanted to get up, and I knew she wouldn't be able to. So I offered help. But she refused and said she could do it herself. But after repeated attempts, that's when I insisted. I mean it's one thing to be independent, but it's another to be stupidly stubborn. When she kept telling me to stop and leave her alone over and over, that's finally when I told her to shut up and let me help. It was the only thing in that moment I could think of to snap her back to her senses.

Edited September 24, 2015 by fitnessfan365

[xxoo]

Yeah we definitely haven't been dating a year. People were thrown off by the term "anniversary". I said we were going to be celebrating the anniversary of one of our first dates. As a whole, we've been together going on four months now (in a few weeks). Did she overreact to me helping her w/her ankle? Absolutely. I'm normally very calm and rarely lose my temper. But after her display w/the injury, it was the only thing I could think of to say to snap her back to her senses. That she had a possible broken ankle and could not stand up or walk on her own.

 

 

 

She was sitting on the ground in tears of pain for at least ten minutes. So I just tried to console her as much as I could. Then when she was going to attempt to get up, I knew she'd never be able to put that much weight on it. So I offered help. She turned it down, so I let her try a few times. But when she couldn't even get up, that's when I insisted and she started refusing my help repeatedly. So finally the only thing I could think of to snap her out of it, was to tell her to shut up and let me help. I think she was partially in a state of shock b/c of what happened to be honest.

 

 

 

Hey Katie. Yeah definitely no kid gloves here. I always give her room to do what she wants, but I'll step in and offer help/advice when I can or playfully keep her in line when she does something that contradicts what she says. But as I said above, I tried to console her while she was on the ground in pain. Finally she said she wanted to get up, and I knew she wouldn't be able to. So I offered help. But she refused and said she could do it herself. But after repeated attempts, that's when I insisted. I mean it's one thing to be independent, but it's another to be stupidly stubborn. When she kept telling me to stop and leave her alone over and over, that's finally when I told her to shut up and let me help. It was the only thing in that moment I could think of to snap her back to her senses.

 

She may have just needed some more time.

 

It can be hard to sit with someone in pain and realize you can't fix it for them. But sometimes, that's the best approach. She would've asked for help when she was ready for it.

 

It really has nothing to do with feminism.

[Maggie4]

How did you offer to help? She can't get up if you only support her arm. You should just pick her up and carry her over to a bench or carry her to the car. A lot of men can pick up like 2/3 of their own weight and walk around. That always amazed me.

[neowulf]

I wanted to add, it takes strength to be soft.

 

It's so much easier to get angry and blame something, rather than to face one's emotions honestly, cry, and say, "This hurts me." I think socially, women are being engineered away from this.

 

But it is PRECISELY that vulnerability men are also biologically designed to fall for.

 

The damsel in distress trope is not a joke; it's a deeply embedded part of the male psyche. Every man wants to be a hero.

 

Women who insist on doing everything for themselves never allow their man a chance to shine. He can feel isolated, emasculated, or defeated.

 

Spot on.

 

It's like women are afraid to allow themselves to depend on a man for anything these days.

 

I *like* taking care of my partners. Making her life easier and easing her burdens. It makes me feel valuable.

 

I don't think I'm alone in feeling that way.

[losangelena]

Spot on.

 

It's like women are afraid to allow themselves to depend on a man for anything these days.

 

I *like* taking care of my partners. Making her life easier and easing her burdens. It makes me feel valuable.

 

I don't think I'm alone in feeling that way.

 

Absolutely you aren't. My ex loved to do things for me and I think felt quite bad when I got in his way over things.

 

But I don't think that's an automatic assumption for women; meaning, we don't realize how much it hurts men when we don't let them take care of things. But that's a communication issue, one that's easily solved by the way, and not necessarily the fault of "feminism."

 

For instance, one time at my ex's place, my car got towed. It was going to cost something like $190 to get it out of impound, and my BF immediately said he'd take care of it. I was like, "no way that's too much money, don't spend that, it wasn't your fault," and we settled on splitting it.

 

My first thought was, "Jesus christ, that's such a burden, I don't want you to have to pay that, it's not your fault." I'm wasn't actively trying to DENY him the pleasure of helping, because in my mind, it's no pleasure! I'm trying to protect him and not make him spend his money unnecessarily.

 

However, I noticed how happy he was when I thanked him, and how much closer he was a for a bit. Seeing in it action helped, so I slowly started to learn that I should ask him for help when I see an opportunity for it.

 

Anyway, I think it's just a gender difference that yes, women should be more open to, and men shouldn't take personally if it's not an automatic thing.

[xxoo]

Sometimes (most of the time) it's not about you. 100% of the time, when someone is injured, their reaction is not about you.

 

Don't make it about you. Try to listen and support rather than trying to take charge and fix it.

[katiegrl]

Putting myself in her shoes, if I fell and hurt myself like that, while on vacay with my bf, the person I would be pissed off at is myself!

 

Her quick reaction to lash out at you ff .... may not have even been a conscience one.

 

She fell, she's hurt, can't walk, she's pissed, she put a real damper on your vacation (in her mind), and so, in that moment, she lashed out at you.

 

I may have done the same ....without even realizing it.

 

Although I personally would have apologized to my bf later, after realizing he was only trying to help!

 

Anyway, I am glad you're working it out.

 

I don't think you did anything wrong at all....in fact you sound like a great caring boyfriend!