Cali408 Posted September 19, 2015 Posted September 19, 2015 Of course a bisexual woman can be faithful. It's simple, a heterosexual person can be attracted to other people. Does that mean they're going to cheat? I'm married, and attracted to other women. What red blooded American heterosexual male isn't? You just don't follow through on it.
salparadise Posted September 19, 2015 Posted September 19, 2015 "Monogamy" has been successfully utilized by various members of the animal kingdom, who are devoid of any knowledge of government and legal sanctions, since the Dawn of Man. Yes, and humans are not among them. Owl monkeys are only primate species known to practice genetic monogamy. Yes, we ARE talking about "bisexual [women]" (NOT "homosexual" [women]); it says so, right in the title of the thread. "Homosexual" means 'sexually attracted to members of the same sex only'; by mere definition "bisexuals" are NOT "homosexuals". Got it. Thank you for the vocabulary lesson. But I think you're missing a main point. We ARE talking about both homosexual and heterosexual proclivities existing within the same individual. That creates a situation that does not apply to either exclusively homosexual or heterosexual individuals... and my previous post and the linked article focus on the uniqueness of that circumstance as it relates to monogamous relationships. Sure, you've seen "empirical data" to the contrary; this thread (alone) is filled with bisexual women providing it. For some reason, many are choosing to ignore that empirical data, however, and would rather hold fast to their own foregone conclusions on the matter, all the while stating that since they, themselves, are heterosexual and therefore not bisexual, they know best what a bisexual woman is - and is not - capable of and have determined that bisexual woman are incapable of monogamy. Me thinks you need to look up the word "empirical." Are you seriously going to try and convince us that there is no distinction between anecdotal and empirical? Again, I will continue to believe that since bisexual women ARE human, too, they are as capable of monogamy as any human being is; no more, no less. No reason to hold them to any higher/different/lower standard than any other human being. I don't believe anyone is arguing that bisexual women are not capable. The point I'm making is that in order to do so they must subjugate their homosexual tendencies, whereas in purely heterosexual or homosexual individuals it is possible for one partner to fulfill all of their needs. What I'm saying is it's obviously more complicated. And in a way that makes marriage less secure for a straight man who desires a monogamous relationship... because of a) the infamous woman's prerogative, and b) the inherent motivation (and softened societal taboos) to exercise said prerogative. So what you're saying is that because you, and a few others can't discern the difference between the motivations for heterosexual infidelity and the bisexual dilemma, that your point is proven and straight men are wrong for considering bisexuality in mate selection. In that case, I guess you win.
mrldii Posted September 19, 2015 Posted September 19, 2015 ...So what you're saying is that because you, and a few others can't discern the difference between the motivations for heterosexual infidelity and the bisexual dilemma, that your point is proven and straight men are wrong for considering bisexuality in mate selection. In that case, I guess you win. Nope. Not saying that at all; haven't even alluded to/suggested/inferred it in writing, either. As a matter of fact, I haven't even addressed/acknowledged the subtopic "Is it OK for straight men to choose not to date/relate with bisexual women?"; the topic I HAVE been addressing is 'Can bisexual women be monogamous?" Since you care enough about my opinion on the sub-topic to speculate as to what it might be and then etch it in stone: I believe straight/gay/normal/abnormal/purple/green/etc. men - AND other people - can date/not date whomever they please for whatever good/bad reason they choose, whether I personally agree with their reasons/choices or not. But, on the stated topic, "Can bisexual women be monogamous?", I'll remain adamant, despite your repeated protestations that I simply must change my opinion to mirror yours: bisexual women can be just as monogamous as any other human being; no more, no less. 1
jen1447 Posted September 19, 2015 Posted September 19, 2015 bisexual women can be just as monogamous as any other human being; no more, no less. Sorry but this ^ is the plain truth. As a bisexual woman who's lived her entire adult life among bisexual women, I can tell you there's simply no greater innate tendency toward infidelity among bisexual women. Yes there are some bisexual women who are unfaithful and there are some who desire to play both sides at the same time. That just doesn't translate into some sort of biological predisposition unseen in other sexualities. There are heterosexual women who are unfaithful and who like to get around as well. There are lesbians who are unfaithful and promiscuous. Same with hetero and gay men, transgender ppl, etc. A bisexual woman who commits to a single person is no different than any other person who commits to a single person. The fact that she's sexually attracted to both men and women in no way means that's she must exercise that attraction, certainly no more than it means a hetero women would be unable to stop herself having sex with other men she finds attractive besides her committed partner. Seeing a handful of examples that seem to buck the trend doesn't make it so in any comprehensive sense. 5
mrldii Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 You admit you are bisexual, correct? Anyone who has read a few of your posts here knows that you are not in a monogamous relationship. How many girlfriends do you have in addition to your one man? Nothing personal, because I do enjoy some of your posts, but your relationship is similar to that which I have seen pretty much every other bisexual woman indulge herself in. At least you are honest with the man you are with, so kudos for that. Many are not. I'm not getting what this was supposed to prove. I'm a heterosexual woman who *GASP* multi-dates and have no problem having *DOUBLE GASP* sex with whomever I please whenever I please, while multi-dating. I continue to do so until we become exclusive. I remain exclusive once I am married to the person I'm exclusive with, too. It's sort of the point of claiming exclusivity and commitment. Again and still, I would imagine that a bisexual woman who is not married to A man or A woman would be as monogamous as any other person, both while she is single and while she is married; again and still, I would expect her to be no more and no less exclusive than any other human being.
jen1447 Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 You admit you are bisexual, correct? Anyone who has read a few of your posts here knows that you are not in a monogamous relationship. How many girlfriends do you have in addition to your one man? Nothing personal, because I do enjoy some of your posts, but your relationship is similar to that which I have seen pretty much every other bisexual woman indulge herself in. At least you are honest with the man you are with, so kudos for that. Many are not. The distinction is tho that I choose my lifestyle as an individual. I'm not promiscuous due to my bisexuality. I'm really no different than a straight women who chooses to have a lot of partners - I just happen to have them among both sexes. (Or I used to.) Not all bisexual women are like me by a long shot, just like not all women in general are like me. I've known many bisexual women, personally, who are monogamous and deeply committed to a single partner, whether they be a man or a woman. Bisexuality doesn't cause promiscuity. Personal values (however they may come about) determine your sexual habits, and a bisexual woman has no more innate proclivity to promiscuity than a heterosexual or a homosexual woman. As far as partners go, I have four committed ones of both sexes bc I'm polyamorous specifically, not bc I'm bisexual. Bisexuality only determines which sexes I'm inclined to choose those partners from, not the fact that I have them to begin with. 4
kilgore Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) The distinction is tho that I choose my lifestyle as an individual. I'm not promiscuous due to my bisexuality. I'm really no different than a straight women who chooses to have a lot of partners - I just happen to have them among both sexes. (Or I used to.) Not all bisexual women are like me by a long shot, just like not all women in general are like me. I've known many bisexual women, personally, who are monogamous and deeply committed to a single partner, whether they be a man or a woman. Bisexuality doesn't cause promiscuity. Personal values (however they may come about) determine your sexual habits, and a bisexual woman has no more innate proclivity to promiscuity than a heterosexual or a homosexual woman. As far as partners go, I have four committed ones of both sexes bc I'm polyamorous specifically, not bc I'm bisexual. Bisexuality only determines which sexes I'm inclined to choose those partners from, not the fact that I have them to begin with. Good for you but boy that sounds exhausting Edited September 20, 2015 by kilgore
mrldii Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 All of this sounds well and good, but my experiences have not reflected this. I have had numerous conversations with bisexual women where they argued their bisexuality basically gave them a pass to be with other women while in a relationship with a man. I am even very good friends with a woman who, while in a relationship with another woman, basically demanded the right to have...relations with men. She saw it as someone denying her her sexuality if they said she cannot be with both. And I have seen heterosexual men - right here on this very site, as a matter of fact! - who argue that it is their biological right to have sex with as many women as possible, within a lifetime...and that 'marriage' and 'commitment' are unnatural states for any and all men. They will also contend that attempting to force them into fidelity is denying them their sexuality and natural expression. So? Them saying it doesn't make it so for all men...I just avoid dating - and therefore, relating with - those men, thus upping (not guaranteeing) my chances of finding a man who'll be faithful with me, within a relationship/marriage. If a person (bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, green, purple, whatever) tells you they're not going to be faithful (regardless of the justification used), it's probably best to believe them and avoid them if fidelity is important to you. 2
Noideanow Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 I think bisexual woman should marry a bisexual man/ or woman A straight person marry a straight person, but in both cases only if they really love ech other;) that Way there is a chance for both to be satisfied/happy:)
jen1447 Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 If a person (bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, green, purple, whatever) tells you they're not going to be faithful (regardless of the justification used), it's probably best to believe them and avoid them if fidelity is important to you. Exactly. I don't really understand the issue even, being as the bisexual women in the example were apparently being up front about what they believe their entitlements to be, not just running around behind ppl's backs cheating. (Which is what I think the OP was concerned with.) If a bisexual woman says she feels entitled to sleep with people of both sexes concurrently and a man doesn't like that, just don't take up with her. It still doesn't mean promiscuity's a uniquely bisexual trait or that all or more bisexuals are inclined to it than anyone else.
CarrieT Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 Can a morbidly obese person who is obsessed with doughnuts have a normal, thin body? Same issue... The answer is, "Sure." As soon as the person - regardless of their desires - sets aside those interests for the well-being of all involved. If you are bi-sexual and want a "normal marriage," than you forsake all others; whether it be male or female, just like the wedding vows state. 1
jen1447 Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 If you are bi-sexual and want a "normal marriage," than you forsake all others; whether it be male or female, just like the wedding vows state. The case is being made here tho that bisexual women are innately incapable of doing that due to their bisexuality. 2
Author Guyouthere Posted September 20, 2015 Author Posted September 20, 2015 I'm going to eat some popcorn now hehehehe
salparadise Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 The case is being made here tho that bisexual women are innately incapable of doing that due to their bisexuality. I don't think that's exactly right, at least it's not what I've been saying. I think I've articulated it pretty well but those on the other side of the argument keep dismissing the relevant distinctions between monogamy for bisexuals vs. heterosexuals or homosexuals and asserting that there is absolutely no difference. I have acknowledged that it's possible for a bisexual to be exclusive, but with the caveat that in doing so they must subjugate a part of their sexual identity and its expression. That is not quite what I'd consider a "normal marriage." From the perspective of the straight spouse, it's likely to be accompanied by feelings associated with knowing that your spouse is making this sacrifice only because you insistence/possessiveness, and that you (the straight spouse) are not capable of fulfilling both sides... of being all that she desires. This article I linked before says it pretty well, and it's written from the perspective of a bisexual man. He says, "The life of a bisexual can be very difficult unless their primary partner provides the support and freedom to allow him or her the chance to experience intimacy with the other sex." This is not a simple black and white question. I wonder if those who argue it as such aren't capable of seeing the distinction, or... if there is some other motivation that keeps them from acknowledging it?
jen1447 Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 I have acknowledged that it's possible for a bisexual to be exclusive, but with the caveat that in doing so they must subjugate a part of their sexual identity and its expression. That is not quite what I'd consider a "normal marriage." In what way is a bisexual subjugating a part of their sexual identity and expression by limiting sex to only their partner different than a heterosexual or a homosexual subjugating a part of their sexual identity and expression by limiting sex to only their partner? 1
salparadise Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 In what way is a bisexual subjugating a part of their sexual identity and expression by limiting sex to only their partner different than a heterosexual or a homosexual subjugating a part of their sexual identity and expression by limiting sex to only their partner? In that if she dreams of licking vagina, she can't do that and still be exclusive with her straight male spouse. She probably can't even express how frustrated she is and how much she wants it to her spouse without making him feel selfish and diminished in some way. And no, I don't believe it's the same as a straight person who might fancy a bit of strange but has the decency not to cheat. Jen, why won't you address this point directly–– how is it not apparent that a bisexual woman would have to suppress the urge for same-sex sex to be exclusive with an opposite sex partner?
jen1447 Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 In that if she dreams of licking vagina, she can't do that and still be exclusive with her straight male spouse. She probably can't even express how frustrated she is and how much she wants it to her spouse without making him feel selfish and diminished in some way. And no, I don't believe it's the same as a straight person who might fancy a bit of strange but has the decency not to cheat. In what way is that diff than a hetero or gay/lesbian wanting another person tho? Jen, why won't you address this point directly–– how is it not apparent that a bisexual woman would have to suppress the urge for same-sex sex to be exclusive with an opposite sex partner? I don't contend that they wouldn't have to suppress the urge (tho it's a bit diff than you're casting it here), but I don't understand how suppressing the urge to lick pussy for a bisexual woman partnered with a man is any different than suppressing the urge to lick pussy for a heterosexual man partnered with a woman. Please keep in mind that none of this is theory for me. I'm a bisexual, so I actually experience the thoughts and feelings of a bisexual. And I'm telling you there's no liability here. If we want to be monogamous, it's well within our power to do so, just as easily as anyone else, and there's no 'special temptation' just bc we happen to fancy both sexes. For a monogamously committed bisexual woman whose personal values are important to her, the thought of cheating wouldn't even enter her mind.
salparadise Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 ...I don't understand how suppressing the urge to lick pussy for a bisexual woman partnered with a man is any different than suppressing the urge to lick pussy for a heterosexual man partnered with a woman. It's different in that the heterosexual man actually does get to lick pussy, whereas the bisexual woman in a hetero relationship does not. Please keep in mind that none of this is theory for me. I'm a bisexual, so I actually experience the thoughts and feelings of a bisexual. And I'm telling you there's no liability here. If we want to be monogamous, it's well within our power to do so, just as easily as anyone else, and there's no 'special temptation' just bc we happen to fancy both sexes. For a monogamously committed bisexual woman whose personal values are important to her, the thought of cheating wouldn't even enter her mind. Yes, but it is theoretical, or hypothetical, for you in the sense that you aren't monogamous and aren't willing to be. Apparently, the very thing we're talking about here is not a compromise you'd even consider making. So how can you use your own behavior as evidence to support the opposite argument? Because you believe you could if you wanted to, and that it wouldn't feel like a compromise? 1
jen1447 Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 It's different in that the heterosexual man actually does get to lick pussy, whereas the bisexual woman in a hetero relationship does not. So it's specifically down to the target sex? I could actually buy that it's tougher with women bc we're better. Doesn't make it somehow undoable tho. So if I'm reading you correctly, a bisexual woman who was partnered with a woman would have the same challenges wanting dick, and a bisexual man paired with a woman would want dick bc he couldn't have it just as much as the bisexual woman and vice versa? And that in all these cases, the desire and resulting temptation for the absent sex would somehow manifest as a greater challenge to resist than a desire for the sex you already have? That tells me you don't understand women very well (no offense), and it seems like an extremely cynical outlook on the concept of self control, if nothing else. Yes, but it is theoretical, or hypothetical, for you in the sense that you aren't monogamous and aren't willing to be. Apparently, the very thing we're talking about here is not a compromise you'd even consider making. So how can you use your own behavior as evidence to support the opposite argument? Because you believe you could if you wanted to, and that it wouldn't feel like a compromise? My decision to be polyamorous and promiscuous is elective, which I think speaks to the very heart of this argument. If I wanted to be monogamous I could be. In fact I have been during significant stretches of my life. I'm not a slave to my desires, I just choose to satisfy them.
jen1447 Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 ^ How many bisexual women have you known who have shared such deep and generally private elements of their sexuality and their personal lives with you?
salparadise Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 So it's specifically down to the target sex? I could actually buy that it's tougher with women bc we're better. Doesn't make it somehow undoable tho. I can relate–– I'm kind of partial [or obsessive] about women myself, a rather small subset anyway. Thank goodness that most of them are attracted to the anatomy I happened to be born with. So if I'm reading you correctly, a bisexual woman who was partnered with a woman would have the same challenges wanting dick, and a bisexual man paired with a woman would want dick bc he couldn't have it just as much as the bisexual woman and vice versa? And that in all these cases, the desire and resulting temptation for the absent sex would somehow manifest as a greater challenge to resist than a desire for the sex you already have? Ok, see the bolded part - you just made my point for me. My assertion is not that it cannot be done, but that it requires them to suppress their innate desire. Whereas the hetero/homosexuals have an absence of desire for the same/opposite sex and therefore don't have to suppress it. That tells me you don't understand women very well (no offense), and it seems like an extremely cynical outlook on the concept of self control, if nothing else. Ha, none taken. There are some ways in which I believe I understand women all too well... and don't particularly like what I see. I just had this conversation yesterday with one remarkable women who I think might have just become my new main squeeze. I began it by asking if she had always been this progressive or if she evolved that way over time. But I digress... So you've made my point again. It's the fact that monogamy is only possible through the exercise of self-control with bisexuals vs. there being no desire to exercise control over in hetero/homosexuals. So I'm not saying that bisexuals can't exercise self-control, because surely some are capable. It's the fact that they must––that's the point... and just as surely as some can, there will be some who cannot. It's simply the nature of the situation, not a condemnation or criticism. My decision to be polyamorous and promiscuous is elective, which I think speaks to the very heart of this argument. If I wanted to be monogamous I could be. In fact I have been during significant stretches of my life. I'm not a slave to my desires, I just choose to satisfy them. Understood. And at some point I would presume, you told one (or more) of those people with whom you were monogamous... sorry, this monogamy thing just isn't working for me anymore, eh?
katiegrl Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 (edited) salparadise, what is the difference between these two scenarios. 1. A bisexual woman in a monogamous committed relationship with a hetero man, who occasionally fantasizes about/desires to have sex with *women.* 2. A heterosexual man in a monogamous committed relationship with a hetero woman who occasionally fantasizes about/desires to have sex with *other women.* None. *Choosing* to be and remain monogamous/committed and faithful to one person is a conscious decision. Does that mean the occasional fantasy/desire to explore sex with others (be it a man or woman) goes away? No it does not. But once a person (whether hetero, bi, trans) makes that conscious decision to become and remain committed and faithful to their partner, then he/she does not act on that occasional desire (should it exist). That's the choice one makes when one makes the decision to commit! I also think you are confusing *desire* with *need*. You are talking as if a bisexual woman in a relationship with male partner has a *need* to have sex with other women, like she might die or something if she doesn't .... or who is being forced to suppress a part of her sexuality. Not true! ***All bisexual means is that she has the *capability* of feeling sexual attraction to both men and women.*** Lucky her, as she has more choices with whom to choose a compatible partner! There is no inate NEED to have sex with women, unless she is actually a lesbian and prefers, and is only capable of, falling in love with/feeling attraction to women. But if a bisexual women meets and falls in love with hetero man, there is absolutely no reason to believe she would have a need to cheat and have sex with women, based on the fact she is bi. As jen said, personal values would determine her decision to cheat, NOT the fact she is bi! She made a decision to commit and remain faithful to her male partner, and unless she is morally corrupt, then she will honor that commitment. Just like a hetero person would honor his/her commitment to their hetero partner. No difference! enigma, I am sorry the bi women you know are morally corrupt. That in no way reflects the attitude and feelings of all bi women. Edited September 21, 2015 by katiegrl 1
jen1447 Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 @ katie, thank you, very well said. @ enigma, wow! You must somehow be the Dr. Phil of the bisexual community if they all go to you to discuss all the intimate details of their personal lives. Seriously tho, I know the scenes you're talking about, and well, you shouldn't be surprised to find women who want to experiment and get around in communities and social settings that advocate and cater to those sensibilities. But the bars et al you frequented don't actually account for all or even a majority of bisexual women. They really come from all walks of life. @ Salad, thanks, you made your case a bit more clearly. If the only real point you want to make is that bisexuals are presented with unique circumstances, I'd agree with that. But I don't really agree that the circumstances themselves account for any appreciably different degree of temptation than any other person faces. It's sort of like saying a person who loves chocolate but is on a diet has it easier than a person who likes chocolate and potato chips. There's really no significant difference in the challenges they face in terms of degree, only details. And that speaks to the OP's original question - "Can a bisexual woman have a normal marriage?" Of course she can - we seem to agree on that - only it may present different challenges than a heterosexual person would face. And yes btw, I have told partners monogamy wasn't working for me before, most famously with my current BF before I started living my current lifestyle. But I didn't do that bc I was incapable of living monogamously, I just didn't want to. (I also never did any extracurriculars before informing him of the changes and giving him an opportunity to opt out first.) I don't speak for or represent all bi women but I've known hundreds.
kilgore Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 @ katie, thank you, very well said. @ enigma, wow! You must somehow be the Dr. Phil of the bisexual community if they all go to you to discuss all the intimate details of their personal lives. Seriously tho, I know the scenes you're talking about, and well, you shouldn't be surprised to find women who want to experiment and get around in communities and social settings that advocate and cater to those sensibilities. But the bars et al you frequented don't actually account for all or even a majority of bisexual women. They really come from all walks of life. @ Salad, thanks, you made your case a bit more clearly. If the only real point you want to make is that bisexuals are presented with unique circumstances, I'd agree with that. But I don't really agree that the circumstances themselves account for any appreciably different degree of temptation than any other person faces. It's sort of like saying a person who loves chocolate but is on a diet has it easier than a person who likes chocolate and potato chips. There's really no significant difference in the challenges they face in terms of degree, only details. And that speaks to the OP's original question - "Can a bisexual woman have a normal marriage?" Of course she can - we seem to agree on that - only it may present different challenges than a heterosexual person would face. And yes btw, I have told partners monogamy wasn't working for me before, most famously with my current BF before I started living my current lifestyle. But I didn't do that bc I was incapable of living monogamously, I just didn't want to. (I also never did any extracurriculars before informing him of the changes and giving him an opportunity to opt out first.) I don't speak for or represent all bi women but I've known hundreds. Using the chocolate and potato chips analogy, it doesn't sound like the challenges are actually that different, unless I am misunderstanding. That is honorable that you said monogamy wasn't working for you before straying from it.
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