Who pays on the first date? - CNN article

[RedRobin]

It's not the action I have problems with... it's the expectation.

 

 

If there is an expectation that I have sex with a man on nth date, it's not going to work. I don't blame guys who are put off by women who expect them to pay for dates for the same reason.

 

 

I don't equate money with love, or even true generosity. Never have. I don't see anything essentially 'manly' about paying or essentially 'womanly' about cooking, etc.

 

 

That said, I get it that different people need to see certain actions in order to FEEL loved. I really do.

 

 

To me, when I first meet someone, I want to focus on other things... and take the whole money thing off the table as much as possible. To me, it's a distraction and annoyance. If I'm doing any judging when it comes to money at all, it's how he manages whatever he makes... not how much he is spending on me.

[Els]

"Who's" counting? Apparently, the guys are.

I have honest-to-god never encountered a guy IRL who pays this much attention to this topic. Typically they either want to pay (in which case they go well with women who are more traditional), or they just don't pay (and thus they seek women who prefer to go dutch). End of story.

 

You cooking said grocery food only expends your physical energy and effort, it doesn't 'cost' you anything to actively cook their meal.

I really don't understand this. Why is money the only resource worth noting? Is your time and effort worthless? Time and effort corresponds very much to money IMO. It's why people pay for conveniences like a car, a coffee from the cafe, modern equipment like washing machines and dishwashers, etc. Going by this logic, everyone would be saving lots of money by walking everywhere, washing their clothes by hand, etc, if money is worth far more than time. Clearly it isn't the case.

 

So, yeah, I feel that all contributions (time, effort, money) are equal and are worth appreciation. Fortunately many guys are in agreement with that, and many do appreciate a home-cooked meal. IMO men who take that for granted or see it as something that is 'expected' are the exact same thing as women who take a man paying for granted.

 

Anyway, if a man feels the same way as you do (that cooking 'costs nothing'), he can be the one to cook in that case, which would stand him in good stead to not have to pay. I know several women who would swoon over a guy who is an amazing cook and loves cooking for them.

Edited September 12, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[readynow]

 

You have to realize that, to MANY modern older guys in 2015, you buying food at the grocery store is wayyy cheaper than them having to fork over $50 to over $100 to take YOU out to eat... [/Quote]

 

Before I respond to your points, ZombieGirl, I'm in a 2yr relationship now, so when I speak about the 'men I date', I'm speaking of prior to my relationship, my current man and (god forbid) any future men. Also, I am in no way disrespecting of hard working men in low incomes. I was engaged in my 20s to a man that earned significantly less than I did and although I spent significantly more than him at home, he still paid on dates and bought me little gifts and did lots of wonderful things. We didn't need to go to expensive restaurants. £10 on a date was more than enough and he paid it happily.

 

Here goes:

You cooking said grocery food only expends your physical energy and effort, it doesn't 'cost' you anything to actively cook their meal

You somehow think paper money is the only thing worth anything. Like RedRobin analysed in an earlier post, a man spending $100 (£60) on a date is nothing near the time an effort to cook him a meal. My hourly rate at work is £49/hour. Do the math.

 

You say you 'do lots of things for him' - do any of those 'lots of things' COST you any money to "do" for him?

Sometimes, yes, sometimes no, but paper money isn't everything.

 

I'm sure a lot of guys will think that the 'many' times that you purchase show tickets for the BOTH of you pale in comparison to the money that you expect them to spend on ONLY YOU when they're 'courting' you.

On only me? Does he send me off to the restaurant alone or sit and watch me eat? We do things for each other. I don't know who these 'lots of guys' are that don't appreciate reciprocity.

 

Well, maybe guys paying for dates is 'such a small thing' for you, but I guarantee you that - for them - it can add up to a very BIG thing in the way of CASH and EXPENSES...Can't you understand that?

This is where you are totally mistaken when particularly referring to my experience. The men that I (readynow) have dated do not think that paying £60 every week to take a girl / woman out (any woman) adds up to a very BIG thing in cash and expenses. I'm sure there are men who can't afford this and perhaps the figure they are comfortable with is £20. But no, it is not a big thing for them, it is a VERY small thing. YOU need to understand that.

 

What I'm trying to tell you is that, there are MANY guys out there in the dating world who are annoyed with your antiquated notions of expecting to be 'courted' and expecting them to spend their hard earned money on YOU when you offer nothing equal or even near-equal in return except for your physical presence and cooking them inexpensive meals. I'm actually shocked that you even meet men like this and that they still exist in 2015!:

I dare say there are MANY guys out there in the dating world who WANT to court a woman and do things they would generally enjoy doing like paying on dates, opening doors, saving the day, but are put off buy this new breed of woman that has made it wrong to do so. He can't even compliment a woman without getting his head chopped off!

 

Personally, I understand mens' plight with this...0

It's not 'men's' plight. It's women twisting the meaning of equality to mean sameness.

 

If a guy invites me out on a date and I don't have enough money to pay my own way...

I've never not had enough money to pay my own way on a date - any date. It's not about that. Perhaps we date different 'types' but the types I date WANT to pay on dates.

 

The only people that will be potentially (if not outright) annoyed by your expectations of having guys 'court you' by spending all of their hard earned money on you...will be men.

Wrong. The only people annoyed are women who want to do this. Of course there'll be men who agree with you but they are free to avoid women like me and go for women like you (on thi topic, of course ) The men I date don't think spending £60 on an evening out with women or men for that matter, amounts to suffering. It's pleasure. He isn't buying you a house. It's just dinner.

 

My man thinks paying on dates is such a non issue. He's apparently derives some sort of pleasure from doing these things as well as just hanging out with me even when money isn't involved.

 

To each his own indeed.

[Els]

In Asia, only one person pays whether it's a business or friendship or family gathering, no to mention dating. It's called generosity and courtesy.

 

This is true (not always true for platonic friends' gatherings among the younger generation IMO, but certainly true for the other categories). That doesn't make it the only way or even the 'best' way to do things, though. Other cultures have other ways of handling the bill.

[salparadise]

The men I date don't think spending £60 on an evening out with women or men for that matter, amounts to suffering. It's pleasure. He isn't buying you a house. It's just dinner.

 

My man thinks paying on dates is such a non issue. He's apparently derives some sort of pleasure from doing these things as well as just hanging out with me even when money isn't involved.

 

£60 is about what I spend at the grocery on food for a week, so if I were dating someone and had to drop that amount additionally at restaurants once or twice a week, it's not too far from the cost of living indoors. $7k US

 

And since you're knocking down this fat little £49/hour ($75.60 USD, or $3k/week, $157k/year) and you're just banking it while the guy spends, spends, spends... for the pleasure of being in your company?

 

If I were on the receiving end of that arrangement, I'd feel like I was selling kitty on the corner. I don't see how you rationalize it.

[bachdude]

Quite strong reactions by a number of women over this thread! Two reasons I think

 

1. they have never been in a situation where dating becomes a serious financial concern.

 

2. They have never been led on by a women who wasn't interested in a relationship but who had nothing better to do so accepted a string of free meals.

 

Here's how I look at it - a lot of dating takes place in a person's younger years when they may be living on a very tight budget, either because they are in college or just starting out on a career. Paying for dates week after week can get very expensive. I remember in college looking at my bank account thinking about how fast the expenses were adding up from dating my girlfriend. This is where real life and romance, fairy tail novels collide.

 

If I really liked a woman, I did enjoy paying for dates and didn't expect her to pay. However, it can get pretty expensive and it shows a lot about a woman when she offers to pay from time to time.

 

But once a relationship is established, I think a couple should behave like a couple and the financial responsibility of the relationship should not be shouldered by just one person. It doesn't mean you have to keep a spread sheet but a general feeling that both are contributing is important.

[anduina]

I love how the article broaches the topic about social signals. Instead of a rule for everyone, signal your personality and preferences on the first date.

[Shining One]

Unsuccessful (not leading to a relationship) early dating is where the costs pile up fairly quickly for me.

• Most women I meet expect the guy to do the spending early on and don't offer to contribute until several dates in. Thus, if I don't make to several dates in, reciprocation doesn't happen.
  
• Early dates are outside the home, so cooking/drinks at home (which are cheaper) are not an option.
  
• I usually multi-date (before commitment) to increase my chances of meeting someone compatible. Most of the women I date do this as well. This means I'm going on dates more frequently, thus incurring more cost.
  

Just to give you an idea, I spent around $5,000 in a year of unsuccessful dating in my late twenties. At the time, that was not an insignificant portion of my income.

 

 

I love how the article broaches the topic about social signals. Instead of a rule for everyone, signal your personality and preferences on the first date.

This is good advice. I usually give women several dates to show reciprocity and don't take them anywhere expensive until we're in a relationship.

[carhill]

Yeah, reflective of inflation, that matches up pretty well with my outlays back in the 70's through 90's. Those gifts reflected a generous offer of my life's work, something, while sometimes dangerous, I did daily to live and thrive. In dates, it was given freely to another, a stranger, as a gift but it still had value; the sweat off my brow. Experience taught to discern respect and appreciation for that gift and, where none was perceived, to move on. In general, first dates provided really good information.

 

This is good advice. I usually give women several dates to show reciprocity and don't take them anywhere expensive until we're in a relationship.

 

Yep, took me awhile but I finally figured that out, fighting a bit of a battle with the parental and religious messages to be generous. Fiscal practicality won out. Heh.

[loveflower]

Unsuccessful (not leading to a relationship) early dating is where the costs pile up fairly quickly for me.

• Most women I meet expect the guy to do the spending early on and don't offer to contribute until several dates in. Thus, if I don't make to several dates in, reciprocation doesn't happen.
  
• Early dates are outside the home, so cooking/drinks at home (which are cheaper) are not an option.
  
• I usually multi-date (before commitment) to increase my chances of meeting someone compatible. Most of the women I date do this as well. This means I'm going on dates more frequently, thus incurring more cost.
  

Just to give you an idea, I spent around $5,000 in a year of unsuccessful dating in my late twenties. At the time, that was not an insignificant portion of my income.

 

 

This is good advice. I usually give women several dates to show reciprocity and don't take them anywhere expensive until we're in a relationship.

 

 

OMG...the problem is you date too much. how come you date that much?

 

if it's internet dating, people just simply go for a cup of coffee...that's not too much, right? who goes out with a stranger for dinner?

 

In that kind of situation, I would pay for myself.

[lino]

at those who think their home cooked meals equate to spending money in a restaurant! Haven't heard that sort of way to rationalise 'you spend your money on me damn it!' before. Thanks for the laugh.

 

I'm a better cook than any woman I've been involved with and STILL I was expected to pay for dates.

 

Since when are all dates restaurant meals by the way?

 

At the end of the day, it's pretty simple. Women expect money to be spent on them. Don't believe me? Ask them to get you an engagement ring as well before your marriage and tell me how well that went.

 

 

Quite strong reactions by a number of women over this thread! Two reasons I think

 

1. they have never been in a situation where dating becomes a serious financial concern.

 

2. They have never been led on by a women who wasn't interested in a relationship but who had nothing better to do so accepted a string of free meals.

 

Here's how I look at it - a lot of dating takes place in a person's younger years when they may be living on a very tight budget, either because they are in college or just starting out on a career. Paying for dates week after week can get very expensive. I remember in college looking at my bank account thinking about how fast the expenses were adding up from dating my girlfriend. This is where real life and romance, fairy tail novels collide.

 

If I really liked a woman, I did enjoy paying for dates and didn't expect her to pay. However, it can get pretty expensive and it shows a lot about a woman when she offers to pay from time to time.

 

But once a relationship is established, I think a couple should behave like a couple and the financial responsibility of the relationship should not be shouldered by just one person. It doesn't mean you have to keep a spread sheet but a general feeling that both are contributing is important.

 

End of discussion right here. Nothing more needs to be said.

[lino]

OMG...the problem is you date too much. how come you date that much?

 

if it's internet dating, people just simply go for a cup of coffee...that's not too much, right? who goes out with a stranger for dinner?

 

In that kind of situation, I would pay for myself.

 

Dating is often called a numbers game. I'm sure the poster in question would love to date less but reality isn't like that. And guess who's expected to foot the bill for the dates?

 

Not everyone dates from the internet either and I've not ever met a single woman that would be satisfied with being taken out for coffee as her dates.

[carhill]

Cheapest first date I ever had was a bike ride at a park by the river. I provided the bikes, heh. Still cost me gas for a sixty mile round trip that I wouldn't have taken if not for the date. Back in the day, it was incumbent upon the man to plan the date, pick up and drop off the lady, and pay for the date. This was pretty common in my dating life, as was taking ladies out to social events, like concerts, theater (not cinema) or symphony and the like or to a social venue, like a restaurant. Why? Well, all else being equal, she'd select another man who would, and we were stacked up like cordwood.

 

Hence, dating a bit during my D, I was a bit flabbergasted that a lady would agree to something as mundane as a lunch date as a first date and they didn't mind meeting me there. I figured their interest was low and they didn't wish to burden me. Old messages I guess. Times change!

[Shining One]

OMG...the problem is you date too much. how come you date that much?

I have to meet lots of women to find those who are compatible with me for a relationship. Usually, it's the woman deciding we're not compatible though.

if it's internet dating, people just simply go for a cup of coffee...that's not too much, right? who goes out with a stranger for dinner?

These were not all first dates. I started going on cheaper first dates (coffee or ice cream) after this learning experience. The second date and onwards usually includes a meal and drinks. The drinks are where it really adds up since many women consume more expensive drinks (martinis) than I do.

 

I would love to have dated less and spent more time in relationships, but it simply did not work out that way.

[RedRobin]

My time is always way more important than $$.

 

 

A guy taking me to a restaurant in no way equals time I might spend cooking.

 

 

There are plenty of people (men and women) who optimize their time in ways similar to me. Or at least understands the value of time vs money.

 

 

I wouldn't be compatible with a guy who thinks buying me things = love.

 

 

Its funny, but when me and my now ex-H were contemplating marriage, it was HIM who insisted on the engagement ring and big diamond. Not me. I was more interested in a simple band because I do a lot of work with my hands and didn't want to worry about a big stone. He said he was worried about what his friends and family would think about HIM if he didn't get me the big rock. Ok, whatever floats your boat.

 

 

So, fast forward to our divorce. I offer to give it back to him. He says no. I made it into a necklace that I almost never wear. *shrug*.

 

 

For some guys, it is a whole lot easier to throw cash at a woman than it is to demonstrate genuine care and consideration. Eliminate the cash and material things, and what is left is easy to see. For me, it is time spent and sincere desire for partnership, along with respect and appreciation.

[thefooloftheyear]

My time is always way more important than $$.

 

 

A guy taking me to a restaurant in no way equals time I might spend cooking.

 

 

There are plenty of people (men and women) who optimize their time in ways similar to me. Or at least understands the value of time vs money.

 

 

I wouldn't be compatible with a guy who thinks buying me things = love.

 

 

Its funny, but when me and my now ex-H were contemplating marriage, it was HIM who insisted on the engagement ring and big diamond. Not me. I was more interested in a simple band because I do a lot of work with my hands and didn't want to worry about a big stone. He said he was worried about what his friends and family would think about HIM if he didn't get me the big rock. Ok, whatever floats your boat.

 

 

So, fast forward to our divorce. I offer to give it back to him. He says no. I made it into a necklace that I almost never wear. *shrug*.

 

 

For some guys, it is a whole lot easier to throw cash at a woman than it is to demonstrate genuine care and consideration. Eliminate the cash and material things, and what is left is easy to see. For me, it is time spent and sincere desire for partnership, along with respect and appreciation.

 

Sounds great, but in reality if you don't reach for your wallet its a kiss of death for just about every guy on the planet...

 

I don't mean this in a negative way(), but you aren't any different than a lot of women I have known..They don't mind carrying some of the load, but they don't want to see cheapness out of a guy..particularly early on....Its the worst possible scenario for even powerful and successful women..

 

Plus, I don't think guys "throw money at" women to buy their affection..They just feel its the proper and gentlemanly thing to do..

 

TFY

[Shining One]

Sounds great, but in reality if you don't reach for your wallet its a kiss of death for just about every guy on the planet...

According to the article, the odds are certainly not in the guy's favor.

If the guy doesn't pick up her burger tab, she isn't going out with him again.

When the check arrives on the first date, half of women reach for their purse. It's sometimes referred to as the "wallet fake" because about half of women who offer to pay get upset if they actually have to spend money.

 

If the articles numbers are accurate:

• 50% of women will not reach for their purses
  
• 25% of women will make a disingenuous reach for their purses
  
• 25% of women will make a genuine offer to split the check
  

I'd be curious to see how these percentages shift on the second date as well as how many women offer to cover the entire bill for the second date.

[Nikki Sahagin]

I think the man should pay.

 

 

After that, split the bill or take it in turns.

 

 

On our first date my partner and I did something FREE so we could get to know each other without spending anything.

[Frank2thepoint]

My hourly rate at work is £49/hour.

 

My man thinks paying on dates is such a non issue. He's apparently derives some sort of pleasure from doing these things as well as just hanging out with me even when money isn't involved.

 

Whistles. I'd love to earn that amount per hour, and be in a relationship with a woman that pays for most of our dates, costing her £60 (~$100 USD) per week, because she derives pleasure from doing it.

 

Yeah, it does sound one-way even if you flip the roles.

 

 

For some guys, it is a whole lot easier to throw cash at a woman than it is to demonstrate genuine care and consideration. Eliminate the cash and material things, and what is left is easy to see. For me, it is time spent and sincere desire for partnership, along with respect and appreciation.

 

Very good advice, especially for men. The key take away is as Shining One mentioned to not take a woman to anywhere expensive when dating. Focus more on trying to find a connection and compatibility than flashing your wallet.

[Els]

Very good advice, especially for men. The key take away is as Shining One mentioned to not take a woman to anywhere expensive when dating. Focus more on trying to find a connection and compatibility than flashing your wallet.

 

Agreed. I never understood people who took their dates to expensive places on the first few dates and then complains about the money they spent. Even if you don't opt for coffee on the first date (as you probably wouldn't if you already know these women IRL as opposed to OLD), there are plenty of affordable date options. Lots of our dates have been <$15 per person, some have even been free.

 

If someone wants to take their date to a $50 p/p place on Date #2 and then whines about 'being taken advantage of', they're just being stupid.

[Shining One]

I never understood people who took their dates to expensive places on the first few dates and then complains about the money they spent.

Before I learned this lesson the hard way, I used to try to take my dates to places I felt they would enjoy based on what I learned on the first date or early conversations. In one case, I knew my date liked lychee martinis. Thus, I took her to a place that I know made good ones. I did not plan on her drinking five of them at $14 each. In another case, my date mentioned she really liked roasted chicken. I took her to a $15 p/p restaurant where she consumed over $50 of alcohol along with her dinner. Those are not the worst examples.

 

Now, I don't care what she likes. Our second date is someplace with cheap two for one drink specials. I'll treat her to something nice after we're exclusive.

[Under The Radar]

I actually asked myself out on a date the other week. Took myself to Denny's, got the grand slam, and left a 25% tip. Ending up at my home for movie night afterwards was surprising indeed. Who knew I'd feel comfortable being alone with myself. I gave yours truly a cuddle, whispered some sweet nothings in my own ear, and garnered the nerve to ask myself out for a 2nd date. I'm still waiting for an answer, but I'm confident in the end, that answer will be a resounding "yes"

[RedRobin]

Sounds great, but in reality if you don't reach for your wallet its a kiss of death for just about every guy on the planet...

 

I don't mean this in a negative way(), but you aren't any different than a lot of women I have known..They don't mind carrying some of the load, but they don't want to see cheapness out of a guy..particularly early on....Its the worst possible scenario for even powerful and successful women..

 

Plus, I don't think guys "throw money at" women to buy their affection..They just feel its the proper and gentlemanly thing to do..

 

TFY

 

 

It feels like it is being 'thrown' at me when they don't know how or don't care to show their affection in other ways. If they make good money, it's too easy to throw it around. Doesn't take much thought or effort at all.

 

 

'Some of the load' is the whole load... My share of it at least. I pay my own bills.

 

 

'Cheap' is a guy expecting me to pay my share AND his. Unless we've come up with this arrangement for practical reasons (ie, he's going to school, he's a SAHD, etc), not pulling one's weight doesn't go over well with me. I pull my own weight. He should pull his. That's all I ask.

 

 

Your argument is starting to sound an awful lot like the women who complain that 'all men want is sex'.

[Els]

Before I learned this lesson the hard way, I used to try to take my dates to places I felt they would enjoy based on what I learned on the first date or early conversations. In one case, I knew my date liked lychee martinis. Thus, I took her to a place that I know made good ones. I did not plan on her drinking five of them at $14 each. In another case, my date mentioned she really liked roasted chicken. I took her to a $15 p/p restaurant where she consumed over $50 of alcohol along with her dinner. Those are not the worst examples.

 

Now, I don't care what she likes. Our second date is someplace with cheap two for one drink specials. I'll treat her to something nice after we're exclusive.

 

 

I think in the cases you mentioned, you should just have split the bill instead of paying for them and then harbouring a grudge. When men treat their date, it's typically conditional on the woman ordering sensibly. No woman worth her salt would rack up a dinner bill 5x the man's by consuming FIVE drinks to his one, and then allow him to pay for her.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Elswyth

[thefooloftheyear]

It feels like it is being 'thrown' at me when they don't know how or don't care to show their affection in other ways. If they make good money, it's too easy to throw it around. Doesn't take much thought or effort at all.

 

 

'Some of the load' is the whole load... My share of it at least. I pay my own bills.

 

 

'Cheap' is a guy expecting me to pay my share AND his. Unless we've come up with this arrangement for practical reasons (ie, he's going to school, he's a SAHD, etc), not pulling one's weight doesn't go over well with me. I pull my own weight. He should pull his. That's all I ask.

 

 

Your argument is starting to sound an awful lot like the women who complain that 'all men want is sex'.

 

I dunno...

 

Seems like all of your posts have a "damned if you do-damned if you dont", type of flavor to it..I mean, so a guy cant be cheap and must carry his own weight, but then if he is a good guy with some money and decides to be generous, then he's just trying to buy his way into your pants?

 

That just sounds exhausting....

 

 

I've never had a problem in my entire life....Never...I've never complained about anything regarding this topic..No one to my knowledge has ever accused me of anything...Most men I know are well aware of whats wrong and whats right...Its no different from having proper etiquette regarding what to bring to a dinner party or how much to put in the envelope at a wedding...You just learn this stuff at some point in your life...No one taught me anything..

 

I don't need to read a report, didn't read the one in the thread and don't care..guess to sum it up, as a guy, just follow a few rules...

 

-Expect to pay unless there were previously discussed arrangements...Even if she makes an attempt to pay, pay it anyway...After a few meetings, this will usually shake itself out..

 

-Probably a bad idea to go to The Olive Garden or Friendly's, in the early stages anyway..

 

-Don't [whine] about the money(guys)..If you are a cheap ass and measure every nickel, then, unless you are super hot, just don't date, because you are going to look like a jackass..

 

-Don't view sex as a "quid pro quo"....Just go with the flow...

 

Only on this site have I ever even heard of guys complaining about the costs of dating...Never in real life...

 

TFY

Edited September 13, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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