Who pays on the first date? - CNN article

[loveflower]

A woman who demands a man pay for everything is not looking for a partner. She is looking for $$. And to me, as a woman, it is unattractive. .

 

Why does the man ask a woman who is demanding and looking for $$ to go out for in the first place? doesn't he have good enough taste and good enough judgment to tell what kind of woman he is asking out?

 

That kind of nondiscriminatory and lacking of judgment and desperate man is not really not my kind of man in the first place.

 

yup I don't have respect for a man who date randomly and casually.

 

I don't date a man that I don't really like.

[loveflower]

I feel sorry for a man who date women that he worry will take advantage of him.

 

 

I respect a man who asks a woman of his dream and consider it a honour to have her to go out with him.

[loveflower]

Her fair share of money. His fair share of money.

 

When I am in a relationship I give 100%. I cook, I help, I don't mind paying for things.

 

But this whole modern concept of relationships where my main concern is supposed to be to make sure I don't give one iota more than they are? Where I add up how much I spend on groceries, how much he spends on dates, how many of "my" cookies he eats....etc. I'm sorry, I think it's childish, petty, materialistic, selfish, and a bit narcissistic.

 

If you cannot give to another human being with adding up some cost benefit analysis, then no thank you. If I am with you, you have all of me. I'm not going to date a calculator.

 

Wanting guarantees ahead of time, wanting a formula for a yes, adding up the spreadsheet, weigh-ins, yelling at a man for holding the door open, dismissing a woman because she didn't whip out her credit card fast enough....

 

I don't want to live in 2015 anymore. It's just way too sad.

 

 

Exactly

 

Real love is selfless. a man who is calculating is not really loving besides being not manly.

 

Loveless marriage is the root of all problems in a marriage.

[loveflower]

It's very pathetic to equal paying for a first as woman looking for money.

 

I mean for god sake how much can possibly a first date cost? people are not so poor nowadays, right? I am afraid my time is more valuable than a meal with someone I don't like.

[Frank2thepoint]

That said, a man who is obsessed with this topic is an immediate "next" for me, not because I don't want to pay, but because it says volumes about his attitude toward women and his priorities.

 

Ditto. "Who pays" has just never been an issue/topic of conversation in any of my real-world encounters with members of the opposite sex. I refuse to let it become an issue/topic of conversation, no matter how often I'm barraged with the concept that it should be an issue/topic of conversation.

 

It is an issue. The article mentions that among the women that do offer to pay - possibly their share of the date - half of those women get upset the man accepted the offer. In addition, there have been few threads on LS, where women were appalled at the man for accepting her offer in the first place. Just because it may not have happened to you, does not mean it's not happening at all.

 

 

I actually wish this topic were less taboo. As others have pointed out, who pays is a matter of compatibility. Would it not be logical to have this information before the first date rather than "waste" several dates to find out you're incompatible in this area?

 

Talking about it before the date is taboo.

 

 

Now I know what a lot of people are going to say... that she only paid because she had already decided that she's not interested. Nope. She texted this morning and said she had a nice time, and to let her know if I'd like to go out again and even suggested a day that she's free.

 

This is my kind of woman! Because she's smart, progressive, self-assured and sees equal as equal. She meets half way, even initiates, but at the same time it's not (or doesn't feel like) the feminist agenda. She's highly educated (PhD) and successful and also feminine, engaging, non-judgmental and easy to talk to.

 

Congratulations to you. Hope it works out. She definitely sounds like a keeper, an equal, a woman that understands.

 

 

over 75% of men feel guilty accepting women's money, and that most couples surveyed and interviewed by CNN Money do not split the bill 50/50 on the first date, even when men call themselves progressive or women call themselves feminists. Do any LoveShack men agree with that percentage?

 

I don't feel guilty about paying for the first date.

 

According to the article, this is what modern dating looks like: 10% of men pay for the 1st date, another 10% of men expect the woman to go Dutch on the 1st date, and the rest of men are somewhere in between with their expectations about who pays on the 1st date. Again, to the men on LoveShack do you think that's accurate?

 

I'm in the 10% of men that pay for the first date category. But if I met a woman that invited me out and said it's her treat, I won't wrestle her for the bill at the end of the date.

[mrldii]

It is an issue. The article mentions that among the women that do offer to pay - possibly their share of the date - half of those women get upset the man accepted the offer. In addition, there have been few threads on LS, where women were appalled at the man for accepting her offer in the first place. Just because it may not have happened to you, does not mean it's not happening at all...

 

 

Nahhhh. As with all things in life, it's only an "issue" if the two (or more) people involved in the event *make* it one.

 

I don't allow "Who pays" to be an issue; when and if it becomes one, it's just one of the many, many, MANY ways to discern one is not The One for the other one, and I proceed accordingly.

 

Life is too short to worry/wonder about such insignificant issues such as Determining THE Absolute And Final Resolution As To 'Who Pays'.

 

[autumnnight]

This is kind of what I mean:

 

It is an issue. The article mentions that among the women that do offer to pay - possibly their share of the date - half of those women get upset the man accepted the offer. In addition, there have been few threads on LS, where women were appalled at the man for accepting her offer in the first place. Just because it may not have happened to you, does not mean it's not happening at all.

 

See, no one on this thread has said it doesn't happen at all.

 

A man can choose to obsess and get defensive over this topic, or he can choose not to. But I can tell you again, I have no problem splitting or taking the check. However, if a man leads with this kind of issue and takes out his mental calculator every time we are together to make sure I'm contributing "my share," I won't be dating him long. Not because I want money, but because HE is petty and self-centered and quite frankly whiny and immature.

[Keenly]

Oh I don't know....who makes the most threads and who is usually the first to use it in a debate?

 

Who makes threads on a date, haha. I'm talking about an in the moment scenario.

[autumnnight]

Who makes threads on a date, haha. I'm talking about an in the moment scenario.

 

Well maybe they make threads if they are weaving something....tee ha

 

I want to pinch your little girl's cheeks. She's so cute.

[William]

Now, back to the article.

 

Oh, also, when using adjectives to describe fellow members or their gender, please pay attention to this announcement:

 

Site-wide individual and group berating policy

Edited September 10, 2015 by William

[Keenly]

Why does the man ask a woman who is demanding and looking for $$ to go out for in the first place? doesn't he have good enough taste and good enough judgment to tell what kind of woman he is asking out?

 

That kind of nondiscriminatory and lacking of judgment and desperate man is not really not my kind of man in the first place.

 

yup I don't have respect for a man who date randomly and casually.

 

I don't date a man that I don't really like.

 

Did you just take a situation where we woman is looking for money and not a relationship and make it the man's fault? It sounds like it.

 

I'm not arguing. Against paying. You'd pretty much have to fight me to get me to not pay, either on date one or fifteen.

 

But isn't it a little strange when women say that guys that make a big deal out of it are a problem, while at the same time aligning their standards to where a guy that does not pay is a problem.

 

 

Also we have the defense for guys to not be cheap, and a first date doesn't even cost that much. If the cost is your defense, wouldn't it not cost much for you either?

 

Again, I'm not arguing the position, just the defense.

 

 

Just say " because that's what I want". Its a perfectly acceptable answer

[autumnnight]

This article addresses the issue of who pays on a date and attitudes about who pays on a date.

 

With that in mind.....

 

Like many other things, it's a topic that has more than one facet.

 

I'm at a loss. Apparently my conversational skills have lapsed or....something.

[Redhead14]

I know, I'm beating a dead horse. The caustic and divisive topic of who pays for first dates, or subsequent dates, is not going away. Someone or some people, years or decades ago, opened this Pandora's Box to men and women's chagrin, and it will never be settled. But at least we could find some understanding and common mode of operation (aka rule) that would ease the confusion about who pays for first and subsequent dates.

 

Before anyone jumps down my throat, as a NYC man, I agree with some of the points the article makes. Since I do ask a woman out on a date, it is customary and appropriate for me to pay for the first date. I'm the one that invited the woman out, so it makes sense. There's a person in the article, named Michael, that actually does this and respectfully declines the woman's offer to pay or split the first date by just simply saying "It was my suggestion".

 

The second date I am a bit up in the air about. I have no problem with covering the cost of the date once again, since I did invite the woman out for date #2. But it would also be nice if the woman offered to at least pay part of the date, and hopefully she wouldn't get miffed if I accepted her offer.

 

As for the third date, I believe the woman needs to take the initiative and treat the man to a date. Even go as far as plan the third date too. Give the man something that he knows the woman likes him too. As for beyond, it should be alternated by the man and the woman.

 

It's 2015: Who pays on the first date? - Sep. 7, 2015

 

So what do you guys think about the article and the message it sends?

 

It was my practice to allow the man to pay for the first date, offer to pay on the second date (I would have money readily available and not digging around in my purse for my wallet. I put it in an outside pocket before getting to the restaurant) and typically the man refused. However, if we went to a third date, I would wait until our orders were placed, excuse myself to the ladies room, take the waitress aside and give her my card and the bill would be delivered to me already processed. The men were usually pleasantly surprised and gracious, however, they were quick to say that they would take care of the next date, because usually in that case, there would definitely be a next date

 

By then it was also clear in some way to me that the man was a "payer", it's just how he is about dating. Some men, however, would appreciate balanced reciprocation. But I always offered at some point soon again and not with a "fake pay". Money in hand ready to go.

 

In addition, if it became clear to me after the first date and a second date had been scheduled, I would go on the date, pay for that date and thank him for the nice time but that I didn't think we would be a good match for dating and wish him well.

 

Of course, if by the end of the first date, I didn't want to see him again, I'd let him know then. But he would still pay for the date.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Redhead14

[loveflower]

 

Also we have the defense for guys to not be cheap, and a first date doesn't even cost that much. If the cost is your defense, wouldn't it not cost much for you either?

 

I am not the ones who are worrying about paying and being taken 'advantage' of.

[Frank2thepoint]

See, no one on this thread has said it doesn't happen at all.

 

That was actually meant for mrldii, but I lazily responded to both of your posts, since both of your message were similar in nature. My mistake.

 

 

However, if we went to a third date, I would wait until our orders were placed, excuse myself to the ladies room, take the waitress aside and give her my card and the bill would be delivered to me already processed. The men were usually pleasantly surprised and gracious, however, they were quick to say that they would take care of the next date, because usually in that case, there would definitely be a next date

 

Well this is an odd approach. If the guy realizes you have paid for it, why try to be surreptitious with paying the bill?

[Redhead14]

That was actually meant for mrldii, but I lazily responded to both of your posts, since both of your message were similar in nature. My mistake.

 

 

 

 

Well this is an odd approach. If the guy realizes you have paid for it, why try to be surreptitious with paying the bill?

 

Because I don't want a power struggle over the bill. I don't want the whole no, no I've got it thing going on. Its done. I never had a negative reaction to it. And the whole reaching for your wallet and him saying he's got it. It still comes off as a "fake pay" attempt.

 

I've gone down the road of saying when the bill comes and I say I've got it and he still grabs it or is awkward about it. If i want to pay, i make sure it

goes that way without awkwardness.

[readynow]

I think I would die of embarrassment if I had to whip out my wallet to pay on a date. I know many of you don't agree with this but that's just the way it is for me. Perhaps like someone else said earlier on, it's probably cultural. The man that's sitting there hoping I offer to split the bill could never be relationship material for ME. I'm not saying he isn't a good guy, but won't be good for me personally.

 

In all my years of dating, there has been only one man who expressed that it would be nice if a woman shared the bill. It was at the same date he revealed that he was actually out of work and he could use the help. I felt so sorry for the poor guy and I paid for the entire date. That was the end of anything romantic happening between us. I would have been happy for him to take us to Mcdonalds and pay the £7 bill since he was broke but he had to bring himself down like that. We remained friends and he has no idea how that conversation affected our chances.

 

So, yeah, congrats to all the women out there growing some balls, paying on dates and going dutch and well done to those guys who look out for those women. Balls are something I have no intention of developing anytime soon

[lino]

I've never come across a woman who actually wanted to go Dutch and still continue the relationship.

 

Only time that I received that or even her paying for the outing was when they were dumping me.

 

The entitled attitudes here in the responses are not surprising at all. So much for 2015. Feels more like 1815.

[RedRobin]

Most dates I've been on, the guy offered to pay. Most of the time, they accept my offer to pay my share. Even though it is a totally foreign concept to me, I expect that a few of them thought I wasn't interested, and THAT is why I offered. Which is a shame. Seems totally backwards to me.

 

 

To me, a woman automatically expecting a guy to pay for dates is absolutely no different than a guy who automatically expects me to have sex with him on any given date. I'm a woman, and I think the 'who pays' double standard is just as messed up as the double standard for sex is for women. OTOH, I also do get it that people are using those standards to screen for those whose values they understand. That said, I think women who hold double standards for men shouldn't be upset when those same men hold double standards for them.

[Frank2thepoint]

I think I would die of embarrassment if I had to whip out my wallet to pay on a date. I know many of you don't agree with this but that's just the way it is for me. Perhaps like someone else said earlier on, it's probably cultural. The man that's sitting there hoping I offer to split the bill could never be relationship material for ME. I'm not saying he isn't a good guy, but won't be good for me personally.

 

Excluding the first date - maybe second as well, does your opinion also apply to a third date? Or tenth date? What about a date night while in a relationship?

 

 

To me, a woman automatically expecting a guy to pay for dates is absolutely no different than a guy who automatically expects me to have sex with him on any given date. I'm a woman, and I think the 'who pays' double standard is just as messed up as the double standard for sex is for women. OTOH, I also do get it that people are using those standards to screen for those whose values they understand. That said, I think women who hold double standards for men shouldn't be upset when those same men hold double standards for them.

 

Good stuff RedRobin. Especially on the boldfaced. Although for me personally, I'm not expecting sex from a woman I date, but I understand there are men that go into a date with that expectation, just as there are women that expect to be wined-and-dined properly, even for a first date.

[autumnnight]

Some women and men are like you and prefer to split costs of dates. Some women are "traditional" and like to be "courted" and some men are "traditional" and like to "court" women.

 

Whichever "kind" you prefer, date those. There are plenty of them out there. I do not see why one has to be bad / wrong, neither are.

 

This. So much this. This whole topic, IMO, is just so much tempest in a teacup.

 

There are plenty of women who treat dating like a calculator. The men who want to do that can find one of them.

[loveflower]

To me, a woman automatically expecting a guy to pay for dates is absolutely no different than a guy who automatically expects me to have sex with him on any given date. I'm a woman, and I think the 'who pays' double standard is just as messed up as the double standard for sex is for women. OTOH, I also do get it that people are using those standards to screen for those whose values they understand. That said, I think women who hold double standards for men shouldn't be upset when those same men hold double standards for them.

 

Are women that cheap? Is sex this cheap to you and men? otherwise why do you compare a small courtesy to sex? so sex is just as easy and cheap as a price of coffee and a meal?

 

What a devaluing women society we are living in?

 

In Asia, only one person pays whether it's a business or friendship or family gathering, no to mention dating. It's called generosity and courtesy.

Edited September 11, 2015 by loveflower

[readynow]

Excluding the first date - maybe second as well, does your opinion also apply to a third date? Or tenth date? What about a date night while in a relationship

 

Who's counting? Since you ask, like someone mentioned before, maybe I like to be 'courted'. I can't be with a guy who doesn't enioy 'courting' a woman. I don't understand this modern thing where men don't enjoy manliness either, I like kind, old fashioned guys. So when we go out, he picks me up, holds the umbrella when it's raining, opens doors, pays for things. I in turn buy food and cook, I do lots of things for him, provide him company to all these places he likes to go AND I very often order and show up with tickets to shows and things he likes amongst other things.

 

So, really, just paying on dates is such a small thing that in my world, a man should easily be happy to do. For me, it's not about 1815 or 2015, it's about men being happy to do things and trust that their women will do things for them too. I've met only one man in my entire life who had an issue with paying for dates and it was only because he was broke. It's never been an issue with any other men, they always have a happy satisfied look when they settle bills. Even my younger brothers could never let me pay while we're out. I would never take that away from him.

 

So perhaps it's just me. There's no need for anyone to be annoyed by it. Just stick with the girls and guys who do things that suit you. That way, every one is happy.

[BlackOpsZombieGirl]

Who's counting?

 

"Who's" counting? Apparently, the guys are.

 

 

Since you ask, like someone mentioned before, maybe I like to be 'courted'. I can't be with a guy who doesn't enioy 'courting' a woman. I don't understand this modern thing where men don't enjoy manliness either, I like kind, old fashioned guys. So when we go out, he picks me up, holds the umbrella when it's raining, opens doors, pays for things. I in turn buy food and cook, I do lots of things for him, provide him company to all these places he likes to go AND I very often order and show up with tickets to shows and things he likes amongst other things.

 

You have to realize that, to MANY modern older guys in 2015, you buying food at the grocery store is wayyy cheaper than them having to fork over $50 to over $100 to take YOU out to eat.

 

You cooking said grocery food only expends your physical energy and effort, it doesn't 'cost' you anything to actively cook their meal.

 

You say you 'do lots of things for him' - do any of those 'lots of things' COST you any money to "do" for him?

 

You say you 'provide him company' to all of the places "he likes" to go to - you're not expending any money to just sit there and breathe and talk to him. Not only that, but the places "he" likes to go to are also places that YOU like to go to.

 

You say that you 'very often' show up with movie tickets and such. I'm sure a lot of guys will think that the 'many' times that you purchase show tickets for the BOTH of you pale in comparison to the money that you expect them to spend on ONLY YOU when they're 'courting' you.

 

 

So, really, just paying on dates is such a small thing that in my world, a man should easily be happy to do. For me, it's not about 1815 or 2015, it's about men being happy to do things and trust that their women will do things for them too. I've met only one man in my entire life who had an issue with paying for dates and it was only because he was broke. It's never been an issue with any other men, they always have a happy satisfied look when they settle bills. Even my younger brothers could never let me pay while we're out. I would never take that away from him.

 

Wow. Well, maybe guys paying for dates is 'such a small thing' for you, but I guarantee you that - for them - it can add up to a very BIG thing in the way of CASH and EXPENSES. You talking to them while out on a date or cooking for them or standing under an umbrella that they're holding doesn't cost YOU a cent - but for men, paying for your restaurant meals, buying you flowers and taking you out to events adds up for them over time. Can't you understand that?

 

 

So perhaps it's just me. There's no need for anyone to be annoyed by it. Just stick with the girls and guys who do things that suit you. That way, every one is happy.

 

What I'm trying to tell you is that, there are MANY guys out there in the dating world who are annoyed with your antiquated notions of expecting to be 'courted' and expecting them to spend their hard earned money on YOU when you offer nothing equal or even near-equal in return except for your physical presence and cooking them inexpensive meals. I'm actually shocked that you even meet men like this and that they still exist in 2015!

 

Personally, I understand mens' plight with this...because I believe that most (if not all) things in dating and relationships should be equal so that things are as fair as possible for the guy as well as for the woman.

 

If a guy invites me out on a date and I don't have enough money to pay my own way, then guess what? I DON'T go out on that date, and I tell him why I'm unable to go. Now, if he says something like, "Well, I'll get it this time and you can pick up the check next time..." then that might be something I'd go for. IMO, it would be extremely presumptuous of me to expect a guy I've never even met or hardly know to spend his money on me!

 

But, to each her/his own. The only people that will be potentially (if not outright) annoyed by your expectations of having guys 'court you' by spending all of their hard earned money on you...will be men.

 

 

 

.

[salparadise]

What I'm trying to tell you is that, there are MANY guys out there in the dating world who are annoyed with your antiquated notions of expecting to be 'courted' and expecting...

 

...and expecting and expecting and expecting. And let's not forget "I do lots of things for him, provide him company to all these places he likes to go"

 

Yea, I dated one like that a year ago... only when she cooked for me she'd text me to stop by the store and pick up steaks and wine. However, she often provided a vegetable or salad. Wasn't that egalitarian of her.

 

I'm just not ever going to do that again. It felt wrong then and it feels even worse now. But readynow said one thing that's sort of true... the money is sort of a small thing... compared to that attitude of entitlement and non-reciprocity. Because the entitlement and one-way-deal aren't limited to paying for dates; they run through every thread in the fabric.

 

I'm staying with the 21st century women from now on.

Edited September 12, 2015 by salparadise