GemmaUK Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 Katie, please tell me what you see here to say that Lola's man has another woman. Ask her the questions. She will respond to anything that flags up I am sure. You do appear to be jumping in an making lots of assumptions. Lola has to therefore defend herself against those assumptions - you see that yes? Ask her more questions, never assume. It really helps with communication as it would have with you and your boss and the 'thank you mails ' thread which you posted. Happily that is now all sorted but it took either action or a question. In the end action and ultimately communication solved that. Try that now too with Lola. Communicate, ask her stuff.
Redhead14 Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 Katie, please tell me what you see here to say that Lola's man has another woman. Ask her the questions. She will respond to anything that flags up I am sure. You do appear to be jumping in an making lots of assumptions. Lola has to therefore defend herself against those assumptions - you see that yes? Ask her more questions, never assume. It really helps with communication as it would have with you and your boss and the 'thank you mails ' thread which you posted. Happily that is now all sorted but it took either action or a question. In the end action and ultimately communication solved that. Try that now too with Lola. Communicate, ask her stuff. Because she isn't grasping the reality of the situation anyway. Like I said, there's no need to assume he's seeing someone else at least right now. He told her straight up what he's been thinking about -- he's stepping back, not thinking of leaving. However, in a relationship, if one party wants to step back, it should be about taking a break from talking about issues in the relationship in order to get clear in their heads and think about things for a bit. That's acceptable for a week maybe but he's crossed a line. He is now using that to do whatever he wants -- go out, go to the neighbors, anything but be with her on any level. That's not the way it's supposed to be. He wanted to "check out" of talking about the relationship, he's not supposed to "check out" of the relationship altogether.
katiegrl Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) Katie, please tell me what you see here to say that Lola's man has another woman. Ask her the questions. She will respond to anything that flags up I am sure. You do appear to be jumping in an making lots of assumptions. Lola has to therefore defend herself against those assumptions - you see that yes? Ask her more questions, never assume. It really helps with communication as it would have with you and your boss and the 'thank you mails ' thread which you posted. Happily that is now all sorted but it took either action or a question. In the end action and ultimately communication solved that. Try that now too with Lola. Communicate, ask her stuff. Okay here goes... It's his going out without her last Saturday night (and needing his back shaved beforehand), combined with her telling us he's suddenly been going out more lately... and for the record, I DID ask her if he was going out more at night or during the day....and she chose not to answer. So no offense to her...but she picks and chooses what she wishes to answer so I see no point in asking her any more questions. Also, men (people) need physical affection (and yes sex) and god knows he's NOT getting it from lola, so where, pray tell, IS he getting it and from who? The fact that he's been sleeping on the couch for over a month, the fact that he gets angry when she asks a simple question about how he is feeling (calmly I might add).... typical of someone who DOES NOT wish to answer questions.... typical of someone who is cheating. It's just a gut instinct based on everything she has been posting about this situation from the get go. Intuition of which mine is STRONG. Along with having worked with women in her EXACT situation...and my own family history with my dad having cheated on my mom. But essentially yes it is an assumption...speculation but so are all the other posts on this thread. And with due respect, you are also making an assumption when you assume the reason why he is behaving this way is in reaction to HER bad behavior.... and that she needs to continue to stay in this toxic and unhealthy situation and continue to essentially "make nice." Although I DID agree with your last post wherein you encouraged her to not allow him to get angry at her....to stick up for herself....she needs to express herself too. But we are ALL speculating basically... I mean what else can we do? We are only hearing her side....we don't know her and we don't know him. That is why I posted earlier that she should listen to the advice of her best friend who knows her, knows him and knows their RL. She is in a MUCH better position to assess the situation than we are. And I don't just say that because her best friends happens to agree more with me (and Redhead and Expat)....I say it because again, SHE KNOWS THEM BOTH, knows how they have interacted and knows their RL. With respect to my situation with my boss, you can find all my thoughts about that on that thread. But I followed my gut....and it's all cool....thanks. Edited September 9, 2015 by katiegrl
GemmaUK Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 Because she isn't grasping the reality of the situation anyway. Like I said, there's no need to assume he's seeing someone else at least right now. He told her straight up what he's been thinking about -- he's stepping back, not thinking of leaving. However, in a relationship, if one party wants to step back, it should be about taking a break from talking about issues in the relationship in order to get clear in their heads and think about things for a bit. That's acceptable for a week maybe but he's crossed a line. He is now using that to do whatever he wants -- go out, go to the neighbors, anything but be with her on any level. That's not the way it's supposed to be. He wanted to "check out" of talking about the relationship, he's not supposed to "check out" of the relationship altogether. I agree and he hasn't checked out altogether from what I can see. I also know, as you do that this only started to change around a week ago. A week isn't a long time when there has been years of issues in the background. Patience and time is needed, talking is all happening. Some time away doing planned nights would give Lola less stress I think and would help with being more consistently her happy self. He also needs his happy self back. He wants that back without getting back into bed quite yet. Getting back into bed would strike out all they have achieved and talked about so far. Neither wants to go, they need new boundaries and to set new boundaries, meanwhile Lola knows she has a problem and has been honest bless her. I don't think these things can fix themselves overnight. Lola doesn't think that either. He hasn't left, he doesn't want her to leave and they are talking. They each know they haven't acted perfectly and they are rebuilding. At least that is how it sounds to me. Lola, sorry for talking third person there..
ExpatInItaly Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 It's all just so emotionally draining and it's not really getting any better, from what OP has described. I personally wouldn't tolerate it any longer, but only OP can decide what makes her happy. He just doesn't sound at all interested in meeting her halfway - running off to their neighbours on their anniversary and refusing to sleep in the same bed after many weeks are very poignant signals of his mindset. Sad. But OP, I do wish you luck. Hopefully there are some actual, measurable improvements soon. This has got to be so exhausting for you. Having been in your position, I sympathize greatly.
katiegrl Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 Gemma, if things were improving (for the past week) as you suggest, then why did lola post this just two days ago? I hate that you guys are seemingly right. I'm still not ready to give up! I am not the one that wants it to be over. So if he does, then he needs to end it. I'm very sad today. The above suggests to me that things were NOT improving, although initially she thought they were. This is what confuses me. Every day it seems to change.....
GemmaUK Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 Okay here goes... It's his going out without her last Saturday night (and needing his back shaved beforehand), combined with her telling us he's suddenly been going out more lately... and for the record, I DID ask her if he was going out more at night or during the day....and she chose not to answer. So no offense to her...but she picks and chooses what she wishes to answer so I see no point in asking her any more questions. Also, men (people) need physical affection (and yes sex) and god knows he's NOT getting it from lola, so where, pray tell, IS he getting it and from who? The fact that he's been sleeping on the couch for over a month, the fact that he gets angry when she asks a simple question about how he is feeling (calmly I might add).... typical of someone who DOES NOT wish to answer questions.... typical of someone who is cheating. It's just a gut instinct based on everything she has been posting about this situation from the get go. Intuition of which mine is STRONG. Along with having worked with women in her EXACT situation...and my own family history with my dad having cheated on my mom. But essentially yes it is an assumption...speculation but so are all the other posts on this thread. And with due respect, you are also making an assumption when you assume the reason why he is behaving this way is in reaction to HER bad behavior.... and that she needs to continue to stay in this toxic and unhealthy situation and continue to essentially "make nice." Although I DID agree with your last post wherein you encouraged her to not allow him to get angry at her....to stick up for herself....she needs to express herself too. But we are ALL speculating basically... I mean what else can we do? We are only hearing her side....we don't know her and we don't know him. That is why I posted earlier that she should listen to the advice of her best friend who knows her, knows him and knows their RL. She is in a MUCH better position to assess the situation than we are. And I don't just say that because her best friends happens to agree more with me (and Redhead and Expat)....I say it because again, SHE KNOWS THEM BOTH, knows how they have interacted and knows their RL. With respect to my situation with my boss, you can find all my thoughts about that on that thread. But I followed my gut....and it's all cool....thanks. If he was cheating on her or thinking of it why on earth would he have wasted his weekend talking with her?
GemmaUK Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 Gemma, if things were improving (for the past week) as you suggest, then why did lola post this just two days ago? The above suggests to me that things were NOT improving, although initially she thought they were. This is what confuses me. Every day it seems to change..... Of course it changes every day!! Life is different every single day for every one of us! Progress is never a matter of all straight up. There are always ups and downs. Always. No one and no situation is perfect and on the up every day.
ExpatInItaly Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 If he was cheating on her or thinking of it why on earth would he have wasted his weekend talking with her? Just to play devil's advocate from my personal experience: My ex with whom I lived for many years spent countless days and nights talking about relationship issues with me. I was confused by his behaviour and we had hours of conversations about it. I'd asked him if he just wanted to end the relationship, which he insisted he didn't. I had no idea then that he'd already been seeing someone else behind my back. (Story for another thread!) So, it isn't totally impossible that a dishonest partner can keep up appearances to some extent while still stepping out on relationship. In my case, I believe my ex was doing two things by continuing the relationship with me even though there was another woman: 1) he felt guilty and didn't want to hurt me, perhaps while even denying to himself that he felt that way about someone else, and 2) he wanted to make sure this other woman was truly interested before he walked away from a years-long, live-in relationship. That bastard. Again, I want to emphasize that is only my experience. It's all just speculation but I thought I would chime in to your above question. It may not apply to OP's case at all, and I have no idea if he is currently seeing or thinking about another woman. I wouldn't necessarily rule it out, nor would I jump to the conclusion that it's true. I do truly hope for her that it's not the case. You've also offered some great advice to her, Gemma. I think a lot of us could have benefited from your thoughts at some point in our lives! I just feel so awful for OP. I know how emotionally upsetting it is, whatever the cause or outcome.
katiegrl Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) If he was cheating on her or thinking of it why on earth would he have wasted his weekend talking with her? Gemma, I don't know for a fact he is cheating on her.... just giving my opinion, tis all. And again, she made that post about her feeling sad and believing we all were right on Monday...which leads me to conclude perhaps he was not talking to her over the weekend. I don't know. In any event....like I said, gut feeling. But people who cheat DO speak to one another, that is not uncommon. Sometimes the person who cheats is even nicer to their SO... so as to alleviate guilt. But again, I don't know. Expatinitaly suspected he might have is eye on someone else as well....so it's not just my opinion. Anyway...I am going to wish lola well and hope it all works out for her. It's not how I would handle it...but I am not her, she is not me...we all have to do what we feel is right for ourselves.... All we can do is offer our opinion based on the information given, and it's up to the OP to decide what she chooses to listen to or not. All the best lola....I really do care and want you to be happy. ((hugs) Edited September 9, 2015 by katiegrl
Author lola59 Posted September 9, 2015 Author Posted September 9, 2015 I'm not sure which questions I didn't answer? I know exactly where he goes when he leaves. He only goes to the neighbors to drink (which is literally next door, I could walk outside and see) - and that was one night. He is not "going out" more lately. Last evening he went to a pizza place with his family. Oh he also went to the grocery store. He really doesn't leave for long periods of time at all. Or at weird hours. He's not being shady. He's not doing that. Helping him shave is something I've always done - on weekends. That is nothing new. He made it very clear last night he chose not to breakup with me. It's not going to change right away - working on himself. Especially now. We were making great progress and I screwed it up by picking at it. And my best friend does not think he is the cheating type AT ALL. She said he would not do that. The only thing she agreed on was space. And me and her are different. She is a very logical thinker - non-emotional decision-maker. I'm the opposite, emotional and an emotional decision-maker. And she understands that. She understands I need to put forth my best effort to make this work. That day I said you were right - I was sad - I am an emotional person. I have my highs and lows. That particular day I was very sad about it. Today I am not in that same mindframe. Now try to put yourself in his shoes. If he was the one that posted on here, about me and how mean and moody and resistant I've been to him. If he posted how he has tried to get me to go to couples counseling and tried everything he could think of. You would have told him he should've broken up with me and not stuck around. Luckily I see the error in my ways and am working hard to fix it and save this relationship. 1
katiegrl Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) I'm not sure which questions I didn't answer? I know exactly where he goes when he leaves. He only goes to the neighbors to drink (which is literally next door, I could walk outside and see) - and that was one night. He is not "going out" more lately. Last evening he went to a pizza place with his family. Oh he also went to the grocery store. He really doesn't leave for long periods of time at all. Or at weird hours. He's not being shady. He's not doing that. Helping him shave is something I've always done - on weekends. That is nothing new. He made it very clear last night he chose not to breakup with me. It's not going to change right away - working on himself. Especially now. We were making great progress and I screwed it up by picking at it. And my best friend does not think he is the cheating type AT ALL. She said he would not do that. The only thing she agreed on was space. And me and her are different. She is a very logical thinker - non-emotional decision-maker. I'm the opposite, emotional and an emotional decision-maker. And she understands that. She understands I need to put forth my best effort to make this work. That day I said you were right - I was sad - I am an emotional person. I have my highs and lows. That particular day I was very sad about it. Today I am not in that same mindframe. Now try to put yourself in his shoes. If he was the one that posted on here, about me and how mean and moody and resistant I've been to him. If he posted how he has tried to get me to go to couples counseling and tried everything he could think of. You would have told him he should've broken up with me and not stuck around. Luckily I see the error in my ways and am working hard to fix it and save this relationship. Again, thank you for clarifying. And I did not mean to suggest your friend agreed with me re the cheating (that was MY opinion only).... I was speaking on the space issue and you temporarily moving out of the house to give you both some breathing room (as per Redhead's excellent comments). And the reason why I posted he was starting to go out more now....was because that was what YOU yourself posted (in an earlier post)....you had said you were happy he got out of the house Saturday night and was getting out more in general, because it meant there was less tension in the house from him trying to avoid you. However, you just clarified further, so I take back what I said....and do not suspect he is cheating. Not as strongly as I did earlier anyway. In any event though, I am not your enemy (even though it may seem that way) I am here to help you (or that was my intention). I guess I wasn't much help, was I. For that, I am sorry. I will respectfully bow out and let the others respond. I DO hope everything works out for you though. Perhaps I am learning something through all this as well.... the true meaning of commitment. Not sure I would have hung in there the way you have been....I actually admire you in many ways. Good luck hon.... keep us posted on the progress.... Edited September 10, 2015 by katiegrl
Redhead14 Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 Lola, since you have realized error of your ways and so much time has passed without being able to communicate with him and only able to demonstrate to him your desire to make the necessary changes in small ways really, a very good way to send him that message without having to talk too much is for you to make an appointment with a counselor, tell him what day and time and invite him to go. If he is not ready, you tell him you will attend a few sessions by yourself. If nothing else, you will be getting help for yourself. This will send the message loud and clear that you want to do the work necessary and that you have reached a limit yourself with this situation. Don't let him control this situation in an unhealthy way any longer. 2
Author lola59 Posted September 10, 2015 Author Posted September 10, 2015 Thanks Redhead. I'm going to a counseling appointment tonight. He's still not in that space of wanting to yet. I'm hopeful he will. Things were actually resembling normalcy last night. He hasn't come to bed yet, but I feel that is not too far off. His anger is diminished a lot. He isn't giving me the cold shoulder or ignoring me or being mean in any way. He is working on getting back to us in his time.
Redhead14 Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 Thanks Redhead. I'm going to a counseling appointment tonight. He's still not in that space of wanting to yet. I'm hopeful he will. Things were actually resembling normalcy last night. He hasn't come to bed yet, but I feel that is not too far off. His anger is diminished a lot. He isn't giving me the cold shoulder or ignoring me or being mean in any way. He is working on getting back to us in his time. Tread very lightly now. Keep to your routine, keep the same amount of space you've been giving. Do not mention the counseling session when you come home from it. If he asks about it, great, but don't go into it unless he asks. And, whatever you do, if the session was difficult, do not come home in that frame of mind. Stop somewhere to regroup. If there is negative vibe from you about the experience, it will give him cause for concern that you may not continue with it. As for not coming to bed yet . . . perhaps forget to have a towel handy when you are in the shower See what happens . . . it's innocent/not obvious attempt yet . . .
Author lola59 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Posted October 22, 2015 Nothing good. I've been at my parent's house the last 4 1/2 weeks. I go over there a few times a week to pick up mail/clothes. I told him this week I am looking for an apartment because I can't stay at my parent's house any longer and he won't let me come back home. He's pretty much strung me along, making me think there's a chance. But after a month...? I don't know. Originally, he was just waiting to make sure I've really changed (so he told my sister's bf). Then he wanted me to stop pressuring him for an answer to our status. I'm kind of tired of it. I think he should know by now if he wants to be with me. He still isn't sure... I don't understand it. His anger subsided when I left to go to my parent's house. But now I think he just feels resentment towards me which is keeping him in his state of uncertainty. I'm so at a loss of what to do. My heart won't let me leave. But my logic/support system tells me to move out. I've slowly inched my way towards that by starting to declutter the house of my stuff. That way if I truly am moving - less to pack. He doesn't call/text/ask to see me. That is very logically saying he does not care. But then he does other things when I'm there that show me he still does care. So, I'm just as torn as him. I don't call/text him either though. I don't know if a miracle will happen or not. My whole life is turned upside down right now.
Redhead14 Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 Nothing good. I've been at my parent's house the last 4 1/2 weeks. I go over there a few times a week to pick up mail/clothes. I told him this week I am looking for an apartment because I can't stay at my parent's house any longer and he won't let me come back home. He's pretty much strung me along, making me think there's a chance. But after a month...? I don't know. Originally, he was just waiting to make sure I've really changed (so he told my sister's bf). Then he wanted me to stop pressuring him for an answer to our status. I'm kind of tired of it. I think he should know by now if he wants to be with me. He still isn't sure... I don't understand it. His anger subsided when I left to go to my parent's house. But now I think he just feels resentment towards me which is keeping him in his state of uncertainty. I'm so at a loss of what to do. My heart won't let me leave. But my logic/support system tells me to move out. I've slowly inched my way towards that by starting to declutter the house of my stuff. That way if I truly am moving - less to pack. He doesn't call/text/ask to see me. That is very logically saying he does not care. But then he does other things when I'm there that show me he still does care. So, I'm just as torn as him. I don't call/text him either though. I don't know if a miracle will happen or not. My whole life is turned upside down right now. I'm sorry you're going through this. I had a "feeling" it would go this way. As I mentioned to you in past posts here, he would need to see that you've made an effort to change your behavior and he did tell your sister that he was looking for that and it would take more than a month for you to demonstrate that you have addressed those things you took responsibility for in causing the issues you were having. Have you gone through with the counseling?
Author lola59 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Posted October 22, 2015 Yes, I have been going to counseling for the last two months. How long does he need to see these changes? And how about my living situation? Completely moving out a good or bad idea?
Redhead14 Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 Yes, I have been going to counseling for the last two months. How long does he need to see these changes? And how about my living situation? Completely moving out a good or bad idea? You know that people don't change in two months. And, on top of that, since you two have been apart now, it's difficult for him to be able to observe any change anyway. When you did go to your parents house, how did he respond? Was he attempting to keep in touch at all? I don't think you should move out completely yet. You say that on some level he seems to still care for you when you do go to the house. Since his anger seems to have subsided, it might be time to open a conversation about coming back to the house. You might say something like "the past few months have been difficult for us both and this time apart has helped me get focused and centered on some things for myself and the counseling has been helping me. I intend to continue with counseling. I'd like to come back to the house now and try to move past all this." If he is unwilling to allow that now, I would tell him that you are moving out completely and moving on with your life. It's been roughly 3 months since all this started, yes? If he is unwilling to attempt a reconciliation given the fact that you have been going to counseling and demonstrating a sincere effort to do your part for the relationship, then he's already moved on himself.
Author lola59 Posted October 22, 2015 Author Posted October 22, 2015 I know it takes time and I know he doesn't want to jump into anything until he sees the changes are permanent and just temporary. He told me he needed physical space from me, so I went to my parent's house. It took 4 days before he contacted me and it was via text. All texts/calls he has made have been "business only." As in only questions about bills or household stuff. I've asked him 3 separate times if I can move back in and he has said no. He is worried if I do a month from now things will go back to how they were. Monday I told him I'm looking for an apartment. I asked him how he felt about that. He said it's not his place to say anything or his choice. I told him it's my only option since he won't let me come back and I can't stay at my parent's house any longer. When I ask him anything about the relationship/moving back in he says I'm putting pressure on him. I asked if there's any chance he will want us again. He told me he has to feel it, feel that that is what is right for him and that he something he wants. He said he can't predict the future. It's only been roughly 2 1/2 months since all of this started. For some reason I still have hope even though all signs point to no. BUT I am telling you he still does have some feelings. He always gives me long, lingering hugs before I leave. And he does nice things for me. And tries to give me things. (not gifts, just like bottled water to take or food)
katiegrl Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 (edited) Just read the update and Redhead's posts and wanted to chime in to say lola, please stop blaming yourself for HIS emotionally abusive behavior. No one acts perfect in relationships, we all screw up, we hurt each other (unintentionally) and then in a good relationship, we communicate and move past it.... especially when we see changes are being made....as you most certainly have attempted to do....and ARE doing. HE, on the other hand, refuses to acknowledge all your efforts, instead keeps blaming you for your shortcomings (still complaining to your sister's boyfriend), blah blah.... using it as an EXCUSE to act like an abusive a**hole and emotionally abusing you by stringing you along, not communicating with you, tossing you scraps occasionally (lingering hugs-big shyt), shutting you out, getting angry (except when you leave)... etc etc etc. THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT. Continue your therapy FOR YOU, so you can get stronger and leave this asshat and toxic situation.... I know you still love him but .......PLEASE. This is NOT a healthy situation for you in any way whatsoever. PLEASE LEAVE. ((hugs)) Edited October 22, 2015 by katiegrl
Redhead14 Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 I know it takes time and I know he doesn't want to jump into anything until he sees the changes are permanent and just temporary. He told me he needed physical space from me, so I went to my parent's house. It took 4 days before he contacted me and it was via text. All texts/calls he has made have been "business only." As in only questions about bills or household stuff. I've asked him 3 separate times if I can move back in and he has said no. He is worried if I do a month from now things will go back to how they were. Monday I told him I'm looking for an apartment. I asked him how he felt about that. He said it's not his place to say anything or his choice. I told him it's my only option since he won't let me come back and I can't stay at my parent's house any longer. When I ask him anything about the relationship/moving back in he says I'm putting pressure on him. I asked if there's any chance he will want us again. He told me he has to feel it, feel that that is what is right for him and that he something he wants. He said he can't predict the future. It's only been roughly 2 1/2 months since all of this started. For some reason I still have hope even though all signs point to no. BUT I am telling you he still does have some feelings. He always gives me long, lingering hugs before I leave. And he does nice things for me. And tries to give me things. (not gifts, just like bottled water to take or food) Ok. You need to stop asking him about the relationship. He is worried if I do a month from now things will go back to how they were. -- That is a legitimate and valid concern. However, he says he needs to feel it, but he won't be able to do that if you two aren't spending any time together. You may want to suggest a "date" that includes doing something you two used to enjoy doing together and let him know that you will not bring up the relationship during this time. You want an opportunity to re-connect with him. I'm only saying this because you say you still have hope and see some signs from him that he still cares. Since he isn't doing much to move things forward and you are by going to counseling at least, it can't hurt to try something positive.
Redhead14 Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 I'm just trying to remind you that you two will need a lot of time to re-build the relationship and you basically have to hit the reset button and kinda date each other again. It may not be a bad thing for you to be in an apartment and on your "own" again. If you two are staying in touch and "dating" each other during this time, this is the time when you will be able to show him how far you've come as a strong, independent, and a woman who is emotionally in control.
Redhead14 Posted October 22, 2015 Posted October 22, 2015 And, I do agree with Katie, his stance is not quite right, and you are not entirely to blame. But, what you are doing now, really, is taking control of the situation for yourself. That's important. And, as we said, you aren't entirely to blame, but you did admit to and accept that your behavior contributed to the situation. Given the fact that it was a recurring behavior, it's going to be difficult for him to trust that it's being dealt with effectively.
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