Woggle Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Some people here claim that feminism helps men better embrace fatherhood but extreme feminism has contributed to the mentality that some women have that fathers are nothing but disposable sperm donors. I have heard women say this. I fully support equality between men and women and anybody regardless of gender should be allowed to forge their own path in life but there is a misandrist streak that I see and hear in everyday life right in front of my face that feminists are either blind to or they don't care then when men defend ourselves we are the sexists. If a guy is a father and he hears he is a disposable sperm donor is he wrong for being opposed to the people who said it?
Rejected Rosebud Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 If feminism really is about equality of both sexes, why have I never in my life seen or heard or read about any feminist group helping any men ever? Because the purpose of feminism was and is to elevate the rights of women to equal those that men already had?? :confused: 2
Rejected Rosebud Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 To whatever extent that may be true, it was never the goal of feminism. the goal of feminism is equal rights and opportunities for people regardless of their genders. Really. So then do we also attribute the dramatic rise in the divorce rate, the break up the family, latch-key kids, childhood obesity, and children being raised by strangers, to feminism? :confused: Where did this come from? Is it connected to the post you quoted? I see my pathetic marriage as an indirect casualty of feminism. I think feminism ruined my ex wife. I suspect the dramatic rise in suicides in men my age is related to feminism. And it has nothing to do with patriarchy. I think a lot of women were brainwashed into being perpetual victims. They feel the world, and especially men, OWE them. In fact my ex used to say that ALL the time. You owe me! You owe me! Why? Because she's a woman and I'm a man. Her sense of fairness and equity we laughable. I'm sorry but this sounds like YOU are the perpetual victim. :( I am sorry you had a mean ex wife. Why did you choose to be married to her for a long time though? Was it because of feminism? 2
Maleficent Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Some people here claim that feminism helps men better embrace fatherhood but extreme feminism has contributed to the mentality that some women have that fathers are nothing but disposable sperm donors. I have heard women say this. Extreme feminism, maybe. Feminism, however, does not. You are comparing the average Christian who goes to church once a week to Westboro Baptist Church here. 2
Maleficent Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I have heard women say this. I have heard men say women were nothing more than holes to stick their penis in. Does that mean all men are using women for sex? 3
Rejected Rosebud Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Patriarchy implies that it is men who 'set up' the system, and it in its definition, it is usually implied that the system exists in order to oppress women for men's benefit. I would ask again, why would men deliberately and knowingly set up a system that leaves them living shorter lives, dying more brutal deaths, working longer hours, and committing suicide at higher rates? To call it a 'patriarchy' implies male responsibility. well that is the price men traditionally paid in order to retain all the power within their societies and to be able to keep women as chattel and bargaining tools! Also those women did their share of life shortening work even though it was not outside the home, including child bearing. Why were women prohibited from voting and from owning property? Was this not imposed upon women by ... men? I think it's kind of ... interesting :confused: ??? that you seem ready to deny the existence of a male dominated culture forged by the most powerful members of the society at the time - the men. I thought that was an accepted historical fact.
johndoe2 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Extreme feminism, maybe. Feminism, however, does not. You are comparing the average Christian who goes to church once a week to Westboro Baptist Church here. Except that these extreme feminists seem to be the most influential ones. Again, just look at some of the things the founders of the NOW believed. This isn't the Westboro Baptist Church; this is the Catholic Church pedophilia scandal; the rot goes way up, and a great deal of house cleaning needs to be done before the movement is in any position to talk down to 'non-members' on gender issues. well that is the price men traditionally paid in order to retain all the power within their societies and to be able to keep women as chattel and bargaining tools! Also those women did their share of life shortening work even though it was not outside the home, including child bearing. Why were women prohibited from voting and from owning property? Was this not imposed upon women by ... men? I think it's kind of ... interesting ??? that you seem ready to deny the existence of a male dominated culture forged by the most powerful members of the society at the time - the men. I thought that was an accepted historical fact. Tell me, how often in history were members of the master class willing to die to defend the honor of their slaves? Sacrifice their seats on life boats to save their slaves? How often in history did masters work tirelessly to cure diseases suffered primarily by slaves to the point that slaves enjoyed a higher life expectancy than masters? I'm sorry, but your narrative of all men through history until a hundred years ago were evil power mongers is crap. Women were not regarded as chattel, they were regarded as children. They were considered incompetent and not fit for important tasks, but their lives. Seriously, what do you make of the existence of chivalry? Or the 'women and children' being counted as especially egregious in casualty statistics? Why were these evil men so often willing to unnecessarily sacrifice so much for the sake of their slaves? How do you reconcile the fact that, throughout history, men have willingly followed women, even into battle, from Boudica to Joan of Arc to Elizabeth I to Catherine the Great and so on. It happened often enough that the idea of the infinite powerlessness of women and the idea that men invariably viewed women as things seems quite discredited. Why would the whole country of England follow a piece of furniture to war with the most powerful country in Europe (Spain)? And why, pray tell, did men give women the right to vote? What did they do that for? I wouldn't even argue that they did it because they were nice; they did it because women's usefulness as factory workers superseded their usefulness as housewives due to the industrial revolution. Curiously, only after women began to enter the factories in large numbers, was there serious concern about workplace safety in those industries, because those evil patriarchal chivalrous men cared more about women not getting chewed up in industrial machinery than about men getting chewed up in industrial machinery. Several modes of social organization were tried. The model you call the 'patriarchal' one was the most efficient it defending itself, expanding itself, and generating economic surplus. So that system prevailed and the others disappeared, until the modern industrial era rendered it obsolete. Your theory of the self-interested male patriarchy simply isn't remotely consistent with reality.
johndoe2 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Because the purpose of feminism was and is to elevate the rights of women to equal those that men already had?? While keeping the privileges women already enjoyed exclusively for women, and continuing to impose on men the burdens specific to men? Some equality.
johndoe2 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 If I overturn YOUR privilege, I sacrifice my own, how does that work? I overturn your privilege, I take away your unearned advantage, I level the playing field and that somehow means I am at a disadvantage?? Do men really pay for women's needs? "Level the playing field." Level it how? Are women going to start working long hours in dangerous jobs to pay for their husband's livelihoods? Seriously, you talk about privilege. Tell me, what are your plans to level the playing field in suicide, premature death, and incarceration rates? Are you going to fight to get women longer prison sentences? Why it that feminists have supported a domestic violence model which all but denies the existence of male victim of domestic violence? When are feminists going to stop supporting the practice of throwing homeless men in prison for failing to pay child support they couldn't pay if they wanted to. You, women, have privileges. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say. Those privileges are inextricably linked to your disadvantages. Again, if you want the same income as men, you have to depend less on money men make; otherwise, men will continue to face greater pressure to earn money than women, thereby making them feel threatened by entrance of new demographics into the workforce. When women continue to expect men to pay for things, live off of men, or perpetuate the idea that women are deserving of more empathy than men, less severe punishment when they do wrong than men, etc. then they are in effect causing their own problems. There are two sides to the coin, and you only seem to want to see one of them, because the other side might mean having to give something up. Unfortunately probably not. In the end you'll get your dream society: women will be >50% of CEOs, senators, and professors, while men will still be 80-90% of homeless people, high school dropouts, suicides, inmates, and prematurely dead. Ya know what's funny about it? I've already seen feminists 'explain' all those disparities as merely the result of 'biology' and, again I note with great irony, already feminist bigots like Maureen Dowd and Hannah Rosin already routinely attempt to use areas where disparities are in women's favor as evidence of male inferiority. 1
Woggle Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I have heard men say women were nothing more than holes to stick their penis in. Does that mean all men are using women for sex? Of course not and all women do not believe fathers are useless sperm donors but extreme feminism promotes that view.
mrldii Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Of course not and all women do not believe fathers are useless sperm donors but extreme feminism promotes that view. So why are we talking about "extreme feminism" if the topic is [simply] "feminism and gender roles"? 6
RedRobin Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) All that talk about chromosomes and hordes of children are distractions. I know women with no children who are married and embrace the more traditional feminine role. They are not controlled, put upon, they have high intelligence, and 2 of them are staunch Democrats. I only have 2 kids, I have 2 graduate degrees, I worked full time for the vast majority of my marriage, and being traditional didn't hamper me a bit. It just illustrates the condescending and narrow view of a certain segment of feminists to trot out the Duggar-style family every time traditional roles are discussed. Oh, and you may be polite to your neighbors...but I guarantee they feel your "enlightened pity" a mile away. Not sure why you consider it a distraction. That family is the nearest example I could think of, since they live right behind me. Projecting much? I don't pity her. She seems happy. But I know if we ever got into any kind of political discussion, it isn't likely to go well. Otherwise, I can't say I have too many friends who embrace 'traditional' femininity, ie the kind that dictates that the man is the head of the household and all that. Just because a woman adopts woman-like hobbies doesn't make her more or less 'feminine'. I sew my own clothes, I cook very well, I enjoy gardening... blah blah. I also drive a sportbike (GXSR 750), am a scientist in an all male field, and restored a 100 year old house practically single-handed. See, where I come from, both men AND women learn how to do things that make them self-sufficient. It isn't about gender at all. My dad knows how to sew and cook. My mom can turn a wrench just fine. Maybe it's my Scandinavian heritage. They are a lot more egalitarian in general and more practical. Also the first place in the world that offered parental leave to fathers, I don't know of any financial rules that benefit women more than men upon divorce, and they don't tend to hold double standards about men and women's sexuality either.... I could go on. It's really the US that is quite backwards in gender relations... while also claiming to offer 'equality'. I discovered recently that my new home in the NW has Scandinavian roots. Makes sense. Still glad to leave the NE with the Roman Catholic underpinnings and 'traditional' femininity. All those Kennedys putting up with their philandering husbands, lol. Not much better than the Southern Baptists and fundamentalists in the big scheme of things. You can keep it. I wouldn't respect any man who felt he had to be head of the household in order to feel like a 'man', or was constantly harping on my woman-duty cr*p. I want a partner. I've got plenty of bosses at work, thanks. Edited August 31, 2015 by RedRobin
jen1447 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 So why are we talking about "extreme feminism" if the topic is [simply] "feminism and gender roles"? More convenient target. 5
RedRobin Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Actually, it's men who are their own worst enemies. For the most part, men suffer violence by... other men. Men engage in destructive behaviors most often to impress... their male friends. Yet, these same men will talk a blue streak about how all that supposedly makes them more 'manly'... while women like me have always said that doesn't impress me and not what I'm looking for. It's a self-perpetuating myth is how I see it. I've made more than just about any man I've been with. I've never expected any man to pay my way. I've volunteered to help young, at risk boys learn how to read so they could break the cycle of poverty and avoid the temptation of gangs and drugs. Like I said before... I don't consider myself a 'feminist', but I don't see the value of gender stereotypes. Most of the stereotypes many men are so bent on maintaining themselves are the very same ones that get them killed, jailed, or addicted.
BronzeAgeJaeger217 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 And people have argued for years now that men have become feminized in this generation, as annoying as it sounds
lino Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Until I see the expectation of society that men have to pay for everything, especially something as archaic as an engagement ring, abolished - I won't believe that anyone is serious about equality. You want equality, show it. Don't just talk about it while still welcoming the unequal things that benefit you. Till then it's all just hot air and meaningless sh*t talk. I will be long underground till any of this even makes one millimetre of progress though I feel.
Rejected Rosebud Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Until I see the expectation of society that men have to pay for everything, especially something as archaic as an engagement ring, abolished - I won't believe that anyone is serious about equality. oh puleeze, any man who feels strongly about not paying for everything and is against engagement rings absolutely needs to stand by his own beliefs and NOT pay or buy. Seriously. The customs don't need to be "abolished." Just do your own thing!! I am engaged. I don't have an engagement ring, but my future mother in law gave me a ring owned by her own grandmother, it's not a diamond or anything but it means alot to me to wear it. I am enjoying partaking of the custom but nobody had to buy anything! Men are 100% free to abandon any of their traditional gender related roles, nobody is forcing you to live by them so just don't for heavens sake!!! :bunny: 3
elaine567 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Engagement rings in history were all about ownership and control, legal and binding, now they are more about the commercialisation of "romance" in general. De Beers the South African diamond mining company commissioned an ad agency - “to create a situation where almost every person pledging marriage feels compelled to acquire a diamond engagement ring.” - it worked. In 1947 "A Diamond Is Forever.” was coined and now diamond rings are "a necessity"... A marketing ploy that worked spectacularly. I think men can opt out if they want, no-one is "forced" to buy an expensive ring, especially if they are aware of why they now seem almost obliged to do so. Some men may want to "blame" women for the "unnecessary" expense, but I guess some men are also pretty competitive regarding the size of the diamond and the cost of the ring they buy for their fiancée. Expensive showy gifts are not often solely bought for the benefit of those that receive them. 3
Vercetti Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I don't take those that fell for a trick created by a man to increase the tax base all that serious.
Mascara Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 "All men are rapists, and that's all they are If you'd read the book this comes from, you'd know that this is the anguished rant of a woman whose daughter had just been raped. The actual protagonist of the book is shocked by the sentiment, she does not support it at all. 2
BronzeAgeJaeger217 Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I really seriously wonder if something is fundamentally wrong with me since I detest the gender role that guys have to approach, initiate, etc. Wrong with me in terms of genetic programming
bcnguy Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) In all honesty I wanted to stay away from this thread cos I hate oversimplifications (ideologies) or manichaeism. So i'm not a feminist nor MRA nor anything but a person with a brain. I'm tired of negative confrontations, that make it next to impossible to learn or understand a thing... Still I'll try to give my opinion to this legitimate question: So why are we talking about "extreme feminism" if the topic is [simply] "feminism and gender roles"?It happens a lot, right? In my mind there is no a single reason for it. One is of course, an attempt to easily dismiss a whole movement/idea because of a few unreasonable/radical members. Another is that plenty of people feel the radicals are the ones currently leading such movement. But I think most feminists accept that theories and specially reductionist ideologies aren't absolute truths There is yet another POV. Historically, there have been many example where a strategy was for two opposite groups -likehere radical MRAs and radical feminists- who choose confrontation, as a mean to feed each other. Essentially, by bullying people into choosing a side, relying on insults and oversimplifications. This draws people from the overall population into their paranoia (it's a them against us POV). In the latter scenario, any movement with a political side to it benefits from this in a variety of ways. They get visibility -in the media-, support from mainstream parties and/or funding. As this progresses, they eventually can gain access to real/direct political power. I think this is precisely were we are now where I live...it happened in several member states of the EU, not sure how things are stateside, though. I once asked a 'moderate' feminist friend of mine who was kind of complaining/ranting about this. Why her group didn't vote and choose to disassociate from radfems if they were afecting their message and goals. Her answer was that they were bringing more money and visibility they could ever had dreamt. Apparently they were opening doors that otherwise would remain closed...and in the end, it's all about getting things done. A necessary evil, then. I wasn't convinced and pushed a bit, saying that in my mind such sweet form of bribery is like inviting the trojan horse to your home and then she finaly agreed. So IDK, will see how this ends, but I'm not very optimistic. I fear the only ones gaining here are the ones already at the top of the game. They make a living and sustain power from current inequalities in the system. For this reason, all confrontation are wellcomed. They keep ordinary people fighting agianst each instead of posing any threat to reform the current status quo. Anyway, let's hope reasonable people find ways to overcome this. And even if some are right and Feminism really dies. So what? A new movement more ambitious and open minded can arise from its ashes, bringing new blood to make a real change in tune with our time. The king is dead? long live the king! Edited August 31, 2015 by bcnguy 1
autumnnight Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Not sure why you consider it a distraction. That family is the nearest example I could think of, since they live right behind me. Projecting much? I don't pity her. She seems happy. But I know if we ever got into any kind of political discussion, it isn't likely to go well. Otherwise, I can't say I have too many friends who embrace 'traditional' femininity, ie the kind that dictates that the man is the head of the household and all that. Just because a woman adopts woman-like hobbies doesn't make her more or less 'feminine'. I sew my own clothes, I cook very well, I enjoy gardening... blah blah. I also drive a sportbike (GXSR 750), am a scientist in an all male field, and restored a 100 year old house practically single-handed. See, where I come from, both men AND women learn how to do things that make them self-sufficient. It isn't about gender at all. My dad knows how to sew and cook. My mom can turn a wrench just fine. Maybe it's my Scandinavian heritage. They are a lot more egalitarian in general and more practical. Also the first place in the world that offered parental leave to fathers, I don't know of any financial rules that benefit women more than men upon divorce, and they don't tend to hold double standards about men and women's sexuality either.... I could go on. It's really the US that is quite backwards in gender relations... while also claiming to offer 'equality'. I discovered recently that my new home in the NW has Scandinavian roots. Makes sense. Still glad to leave the NE with the Roman Catholic underpinnings and 'traditional' femininity. All those Kennedys putting up with their philandering husbands, lol. Not much better than the Southern Baptists and fundamentalists in the big scheme of things. You can keep it. I wouldn't respect any man who felt he had to be head of the household in order to feel like a 'man', or was constantly harping on my woman-duty cr*p. I want a partner. I've got plenty of bosses at work, thanks. Where did I bring up hobbies? Did I give any examples of what activity is "feminine" and what is not? I am not projecting. I have the average amount of children, I wear pants, I never homeschooled, and for most of my adult life I have worked full time, even being the primary support for the family for a time. And WTH do the Kennedys have to do with anything? Are you just pulling stories out of a hat, or are you implying that men cheat more when there are traditional gender roles in the marriage? Bottom line, there is a sect professed "feminists" who will pity, make fun of, condescend toward, and criticize any woman who does not choose what THEY think is progressive enough. Just own the bias and condescension.
Rejected Rosebud Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 I know plenty of guys that have decided to give up on their gender roles, not buy engagement rings, refuse to pay for dates, that sort of thing. They're all single. So, sure, a guy is free to do all of those things, but I wish him luck in finding a woman that will date him. Most would rather insult him. Beta male, cheapskate, insecure...all insults thrown at the guy you are describing. OK. Didn't I just tell you I don't have an engagement ring? You know what, you can find different kinds of people to hang around with. The world is full of men AND women who are actively working to erase gender roles. In fact some people even refuse to use gender specific pronouns like "he" and "she." A whole bunch of people! :bunny: If YOU insist on dating women who expect people to adhere to traditional gender roles, and playing your own, then please don't make a huge deal out of it when everybody in your world does adhere to them. That is YOUR choice. Just for the record, "REFUSING" to pay for dates sounds quite petty. Dating in an egalitarian way is something that is a part of a lifestyle and a system of social beliefs. Since obviously you are not living in any kind of alternative way to the traditional and sexist stereotypes (guys must pay, women must not enjoy sex outside of relationships, men may, etc) then you are going to have to take the negatives with the positives I guess!! If you were willing to challenge all of that and re-imagine and reinvent your own perception of "male" and "female" and find others who are doing that too, your whole range of possible relationship dynamics would open up in ways you probably have no idea of!! I wish more of you guys here on LS would try it!! 1
Rejected Rosebud Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 It happens a lot, right? In my mind there is no a single reason for it. One is of course, an attempt to easily dismiss a whole movement/idea because of a few unreasonable/radical members. Another is that plenty of people feel the radicals are the ones currently leading such movement. But I think most feminists accept that theories and specially reductionist ideologies aren't absolute truths Like I said I am a feminist and I also LOOOOOVE men, alot of them, I love humanity and I am repelled by any kind of hate. That said though radicalism has fueled the fires of much social change.
Recommended Posts