RoseVille Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 You're upset with a family member, friend, or romantic partner because of something they said or did. You tell them what it is that's bothering you and how it makes you feel. They respond not by addressing what you said, by instead by telling you what you did wrong, either in the context of the situation that upset you, or something completely different. A made up hypothetical -- Rose: "It upsets me when you're late to the movies. It happens with almost every movie we go to together, and I hate sitting in the front row with my neck bent far back to see the screen because we didn't get inside in time. Next time, I'm just going to get here and go in and you can find me whenever you arrive. I'll text you to tell you where I am in the theater so you won't have to stand in the darkness trying to find me." Friend: "Yeah, well you took the last seat on BART on Wednesday and I had to stand and you knew my feet hurt!" Or, "You were late to happy hour the other day, and I didn't say anything." When this happens, I try to bring the focus back on what I wanted to talk about -- Rose: "We can talk about that next, but can we address this first?" Friend: "You can't tell me how to handle this fight!" How do you handle this type of situation, if at all?
Gloria25 Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 I had a "friend" like this... I put up with her crap for years cuz I guess I didn't have anything else to do. Plus, we did actually have some good times and she was nice at times too. But, when she'd pull her stunts - it was like forks on chalkboard. So, what did I do? I tried a "fade". I stopped calling, txting, visiting, etc. Then I guess she figured out she was getting faded on and decided to come and visit me. I told her not to worry, don't come, etc and she insisted...AND, just like the scenario you posted - she said that "I" was the one that told her it was ok to come (she turned it on me). I literally left her at the restaurant and told her to find her own way back to her car and go home. She got a taxi to her car and when she rang my doorbell, just opened the door enough to shove her stuff outside. That was the last I heard from her. She sent me a Xmas card and I just dumped it. People that won't own their crap? No point in trying to make them do it. Just move on. 2
autumnnight Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 You just described the one thing that can make me go from zero to crazy in a millisecond, no matter where it occurs. How do I handle it? Well...sadly, not well. People who cannot admit they are wrong or who do that lame "I'm sorry I reacted so badly to YOUR fault" make me want to commit hari-kari or homicide I secretly hope that lice infest their toe hair. 5
mrldii Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 My last LTR did this a lot...whenever I was finally bothered enough about something to say something about it, he'd try to turn it into some real or imagined recent sleight that I'd done. How did I handle it? In my typical, smart-*ss, dripping-with-sarcasm-and-sprinkled-with-snark style: "Oh. That bothered you? Enough to say something about it? BUT, not enough to say something about it at the time...like I'm doing, now. So, we're going to address and resolve this NOW and then, when we're done, we'll address what bothered you before enough to mention it (but not at the time that it had happened). Did it bother you enough, then, that you'll remember it when we're done here, or would you like to write it down? Yanno, so you'll remember it then when we're done discussing this..." He never wrote it down...nor seemed to remember what had bothered him so much, once we were done resolving the issue at-hand. Worked like a charm. "Like a charm", indeed...did I mention he's my ex? 3
salparadise Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 The mistake you're making is not stopping with saying how you feel... continuing with words like always or never, and threatening an extreme consequence next time he doesn't conform to your expectation. Use "I" and "we" rather than "you." So if you had simply said, "it makes me upset when we're late to the movies––do you think we could arriving a few minutes early from now on?" Then the answer would probably be, "yes dear, will do that." Problem solved because you made it about your feelings rather than being accusatory. You're going to get resistance pretty much anytime you play the blame game. It's just human nature. But I also agree with you that a) you shouldn't be late to a movie, and b) he shouldn't point out something totally irrelevant as justification. 2
autumnnight Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 My last LTR did this a lot...whenever I was finally bothered enough about something to say something about it, he'd try to turn it into some real or imagined recent sleight that I'd done. How did I handle it? In my typical, smart-*ss, dripping-with-sarcasm-and-sprinkled-with-snark style: "Oh. That bothered you? Enough to say something about it? BUT, not enough to say something about it at the time...like I'm doing, now. So, we're going to address and resolve this NOW and then, when we're done, we'll address what bothered you before enough to mention it (but not at the time that it had happened). Did it bother you enough, then, that you'll remember it when we're done here, or would you like to write it down? Yanno, so you'll remember it then when we're done discussing this..." He never wrote it down...nor seemed to remember what had bothered him so much, once we were done resolving the issue at-hand. Worked like a charm. "Like a charm", indeed...did I mention he's my ex? hmmm....I wonder if we have the same ex lol
autumnnight Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 The mistake you're making is not stopping with saying how you feel... continuing with words like always or never, and threatening an extreme consequence next time he doesn't conform to your expectation. Use "I" and "we" rather than "you." So if you had simply said, "it makes me upset when we're late to the movies––do you think we could arriving a few minutes early from now on?" Then the answer would probably be, "yes dear, will do that." Problem solved because you made it about your feelings rather than being accusatory. You're going to get resistance pretty much anytime you play the blame game. It's just human nature. But I also agree with you that a) you shouldn't be late to a movie, and b) he shouldn't point out something totally irrelevant as justification. This works with normal people. But some people just aren't going to do or see anything anyway but theirs no matter how you phrase it. I seem to attract people like this at times. The more you try to explain yourself, the less they choose to understand you. And if it seems as if they might end up having to be wrong about something, they will basically just verbally freak or be intentionally obtuse. It's loads of fun 2
Author RoseVille Posted August 22, 2015 Author Posted August 22, 2015 The mistake you're making is not stopping with saying how you feel... continuing with words like always or never, and threatening an extreme consequence next time he doesn't conform to your expectation. Use "I" and "we" rather than "you." So if you had simply said, "it makes me upset when we're late to the movies––do you think we could arriving a few minutes early from now on?" Then the answer would probably be, "yes dear, will do that." Problem solved because you made it about your feelings rather than being accusatory. You're going to get resistance pretty much anytime you play the blame game. It's just human nature. But I also agree with you that a) you shouldn't be late to a movie, and b) he shouldn't point out something totally irrelevant as justification. I don't see how I made a mistake given your guidelines, which I do follow. I said "almost every" (which is true, it's literally 99 times out of 100, if not 100), and my grievance was full of "I" and "we". I also did try suggesting that we arrive earlier. The person looks up the movie time and decides when we need to be there, regardless of what time we agreed upon. "I know we agreed on 7 but the movie doesn't start until 7:10 and it's not a blockbuster or the first night it's out, so I figured it would be okay if I got here a little later," as she sits down at the end of the previews at 7:20. (Reminder, it's a made-up example, I'm trying my best to give a hypo that fits what I often deal with.)
salparadise Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 This works with normal people. But some people just aren't going to do or see anything anyway but theirs no matter how you phrase it. I seem to attract people like this at times. The more you try to explain yourself, the less they choose to understand you. And if it seems as if they might end up having to be wrong about something, they will basically just verbally freak or be intentionally obtuse. It's loads of fun Oh yea, I'm quite familiar with the pattern. But I didn't realize that you all know my ex-wife. I figured a lot of this stuff out after I started going to counseling. I was going at first without her knowing because I realized something was askew and wanted to get a handle on it. The counselor taught me how to enforce personal boundaries and use the "I" statements to basically starve the argument for fuel. When you just say how you feel in a calm neutral tone without making an accusation, you give them nothing to push back against. It's a form of non-engagement, or limited engagement. But with my ex, she needed the argument in order to vent her frustrations and project her crap onto me. So it infuriated her when I stayed calm, lowered my voice and just said how I feel... she would go ahead and have the argument by herself sometimes and I'd sit and listen until she was done, and then not comment at all. No defending myself, no escalation whatsoever. It confused the hell out of her. Seriously! 4
AlwaysGrowing Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 CA type persons do this often. Often...they view conflict as "fighting"... When it is not the same at all. So instead of owning the conflict in a constructive way...they turn it around to you being "bitchy", "bossy"... The "bad" one. And see....they never said anything about the time you were late!...meaning I am the "good", "understanding" one. When in actuality...they built resentment...and set you up for failure...so they can point out how many times you have done X....when if you had known about "X"... You would have never done it again. These types often appear as the good guy...good girl. What they actually are...are resentment builders, blamers...and liars. A CA spouse...is one of the worst spouses to have. Nothing gets truly resolved, resentment builds, lies get told, they re-write history...and to themselves and the outside world...they are the "good" spouse. 5
Quiet Storm Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Some people will get automatically defensive when you call them out and turn it into a tit for tat game. Some people just won't respond to words, so you have to show with your actions how you feel. Instead of talking, just don't go to the movies with them. Next time it comes up, say "I don't like going to the movies with you. You're always late." Keep it simple. Don't try to control their behavior, just make it known that it's not OK with you. Don't accuse, because that will put them in defensive mode where they are only thinking of counter attacks and not thinking about their actions. Actions speak so much louder than words. If you don't make it about calling them out, and just make it about you and your individual expectations and preferences, then it might make them think "Hmmm, maybe it IS messed up that I'm always late and we have to sit in the front. Maybe I am being inconsiderate". Whereas in defensive mode they will be all about ,"Well, remember the time YOU did this..." 3
Author RoseVille Posted August 22, 2015 Author Posted August 22, 2015 Some people will get automatically defensive when you call them out and turn it into a tit for tat game. Some people just won't respond to words, so you have to show with your actions how you feel. Instead of talking, just don't go to the movies with them. Next time it comes up, say "I don't like going to the movies with you. You're always late." Keep it simple. Don't try to control their behavior, just make it known that it's not OK with you. Don't accuse, because that will put them in defensive mode where they are only thinking of counter attacks and not thinking about their actions. Actions speak so much louder than words. If you don't make it about calling them out, and just make it about you and your individual expectations and preferences, then it might make them think "Hmmm, maybe it IS messed up that I'm always late and we have to sit in the front. Maybe I am being inconsiderate". Whereas in defensive mode they will be all about ,"Well, remember the time YOU did this..." Isn't the bolded an accusation? That's where I get confused.
Author RoseVille Posted August 22, 2015 Author Posted August 22, 2015 CA type persons do this often. Often...they view conflict as "fighting"... When it is not the same at all. So instead of owning the conflict in a constructive way...they turn it around to you being "bitchy", "bossy"... The "bad" one. And see....they never said anything about the time you were late!...meaning I am the "good", "understanding" one. When in actuality...they built resentment...and set you up for failure...so they can point out how many times you have done X....when if you had known about "X"... You would have never done it again. These types often appear as the good guy...good girl. What they actually are...are resentment builders, blamers...and liars. A CA spouse...is one of the worst spouses to have. Nothing gets truly resolved, resentment builds, lies get told, they re-write history...and to themselves and the outside world...they are the "good" spouse. It's as though you're talking about my xMM, who is one of the people who came to mind when drafting the OP. 1
Tayla Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 The only time I use "we" is when it at the conclusion of Wrapping up the contents. Such as - Now that this is resolved, how can "we" move on towards (insert new behavior or regard). Key is not to jump in the crazy pool as I call it. Stick to one topic and one concern, and break it down from there. Overloading is rarely helpful. I would reflect back to them what you herd them convey and say " Did I hear that correctly?" , and then move back to the main frame. Conflict resolution involves: Knowing the topic of concern, conveying it in a non accusatory way, directing it towards the behavior or the statement, Clarifying it, Listening, re-iterating, and then resolve. When you have a 70% chance of getting thru and getting fair results its worth it. I've been in that 30% side though here of late, so I do get your dilemma ....
GoldieLox Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 My favorite is when someone does something or says something that they know will get an inevitable reaction from you just so they then turn around and use it against you because they are unable to come to terms with owning their issues and emotions. It's a terrible feeling, but it really shows you someone's true colors. 1
salparadise Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 CA type persons do this often. Am I the only person in this thread who doesn't know what a CA type person is? I know it uses valuable keystrokes and defeats the purpose of abbreviating, but could someone enlighten me, please?
AlwaysGrowing Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Conflict Avoidant. The second there is conflict...they hear...I am "bad", not good enough..etc. And shut it down...by deflecting...passively agreeing..telling you what they think you want to hear. Even their agreements mean nothing...as it is an avoidant ploy...not resolution. They use their agreement, telling you what you want to hear, and deflection to internally tell themselves that you are being the "bitch" and see how easy going they are. So no true resolution is ever met....they are perpetually the easy going, good one and you are the bitchy, bad one. For those types...assertive means the same as aggressive. Being that they are not assertive...they spin your assertiveness into aggressiveness. It is a tool they use to internally put you in your place and be the "better", "healthier" person....to themselves. Anyone who has been with a "good" guy or gal...know how frustrating it is to constantly be banging your head (being the "bitch"), while they hold the "I am the easy going one" attitude. You actually start to believe that your issue/s are too demanding....as they are always there..because nothing gets resolved. Because the CA goal is not resolution...it is to end the conversation in its entirety. 2
mrldii Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Thank you for this explanation. I've been racking my brain trying to figure it out...and have been reassuring myself that it is NOT referring to every single person who resides in the State of California. Yes, the ex that I'd referred to was definitely "CA"; understandably so, as he grew up in a household where 'everything' he (and his siblings) did was scrutinized and criticized. Broaching unpleasant topics with him was 'always' a chore.
salparadise Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Conflict Avoidant. The second there is conflict...they hear... Thank you. Great explanation. Do you think a person can be conflict avoidant and not have these pattern, or is it inherent?
jen1447 Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 You're upset with a family member, friend, or romantic partner because of something they said or did. You tell them what it is that's bothering you and how it makes you feel. They respond not by addressing what you said, by instead by telling you what you did wrong, either in the context of the situation that upset you, or something completely different. A made up hypothetical -- Rose: "It upsets me when you're late to the movies. It happens with almost every movie we go to together, and I hate sitting in the front row with my neck bent far back to see the screen because we didn't get inside in time. Next time, I'm just going to get here and go in and you can find me whenever you arrive. I'll text you to tell you where I am in the theater so you won't have to stand in the darkness trying to find me." Friend: "Yeah, well you took the last seat on BART on Wednesday and I had to stand and you knew my feet hurt!" Or, "You were late to happy hour the other day, and I didn't say anything." When this happens, I try to bring the focus back on what I wanted to talk about -- Rose: "We can talk about that next, but can we address this first?" Friend: "You can't tell me how to handle this fight!" How do you handle this type of situation, if at all? I'm a two strikes person, so what I'll do is (patiently and not angrily) explain just as in your example that we're not actually talking about the straw man right now, we can talk about him later if desired, but right now we're talking about the subject I started. If they go back to it a second time, I'm out. Incidentally there's a lot of that goes on here at LS. 3
Weezy1973 Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 How do you know if your expectations are realistic or not? And at what point do we have to accept the idiosyncrasies of others, and if we can't, just cut them out of our lives? Or adjust to them ourselves... For example, I have a friend that is literally always late. I understand this about him, and think he adds value to my life and our friendship is important. Instead of getting angry with him, or expressing that it frustrates me, I've adjusted. I just arrive about a half hour later than the designated time, and we usually get their at the same time. Especially when it comes to close interpersonal relationships, people aren't just going to conform to our ideals. That's a ridiculous notion. But I think the key is to complain about a certain behaviour at a certain time, rather than criticizing them as a person.
AlwaysGrowing Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Thank you. Great explanation. Do you think a person can be conflict avoidant and not have these pattern, or is it inherent? I am not understanding the question. Can one be conflict avoidant and not avoid conflict? If a person exhibits these go-to responses..they are conflict avoidant. A conflict avoidant person takes what you are saying/issue as a personal attack on their character..not what it is...an issue that you want resolved. 1
AlwaysGrowing Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 How do you know if your expectations are realistic or not? And at what point do we have to accept the idiosyncrasies of others, and if we can't, just cut them out of our lives? Or adjust to them ourselves... For example, I have a friend that is literally always late. I understand this about him, and think he adds value to my life and our friendship is important. Instead of getting angry with him, or expressing that it frustrates me, I've adjusted. I just arrive about a half hour later than the designated time, and we usually get their at the same time. Especially when it comes to close interpersonal relationships, people aren't just going to conform to our ideals. That's a ridiculous notion. But I think the key is to complain about a certain behaviour at a certain time, rather than criticizing them as a person. It will become apparent if they use the same response to any issue...not just one.
autumnnight Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 How do you know if your expectations are realistic or not? And at what point do we have to accept the idiosyncrasies of others, and if we can't, just cut them out of our lives? Or adjust to them ourselves... For example, I have a friend that is literally always late. I understand this about him, and think he adds value to my life and our friendship is important. Instead of getting angry with him, or expressing that it frustrates me, I've adjusted. I just arrive about a half hour later than the designated time, and we usually get their at the same time. Especially when it comes to close interpersonal relationships, people aren't just going to conform to our ideals. That's a ridiculous notion. But I think the key is to complain about a certain behaviour at a certain time, rather than criticizing them as a person. I have a family member and friend like this. I think my family member was born this way. My solution because otherwise they are great? I tell them a 30 minutes earlier time. If we need to leave at 5:00, I tell them 4:15-4:30
Otter2569 Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 This type of person will never change. I tried and tried and tried. Like an idiot you think you can reach and understanding -you CAN NOT! I ended my relationship this week - while on vacation with our kids. I hit the wall. She could swear at me all day, tell me to **** off but could never get over anything I said in anger. Even if I apologized she would not let it go. We would fight to the death at least once a week - over Nothing. It would last for hours, she would cry and cry, I would sleep on the couch or drive home (an hour). Every time I tried to explain myself she shut me down and said I was blaming, or trying to be mean versus ever giving me an ounce of respect to hear me out. Yet her feelings were like fragile flowers. She became more and more controlling and even got physical a time or two. We tried coupes counseling but she self-destructed two out of the three times that we went. After the last ridiculous fight I packed my bags in the middle of the night and moved out. I was done. Now I am enduring a series of twisted texts that follow the same pattern…she is hurt beyond belief, her life is in ruins. I am the bad guy – as ALWAYS. Sorry for the rant but this is all too fresh in my mind!
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