Perspective from a MM

August 20, 2015

I'm truly curious, because I don't hear this brought up in your posts at all.

Does morality come into this for you? Guilt? Right and wrong? Are you religious at all? It's okay if not. I'm just curious.

I am a MW who just ended my affair. I loved my AP. I still do. He is also married, but moving closer to divorcing. He and his wife are just nearing the end, they do not have a good marriage. His decision to divorce is his alone; I have nothing to do with it.

My marriage is not over (at least, not yet) and I don't feel right not giving myself to it, not giving it 100%. Which means that I feel guilty even continuing LC in any form. It feels wrong, like I am continuing to betray my husband. I can never get rid of the guilt.

My MM isn't capable of a relationship anyway, not one that I am secure with. So we mutually parted ways.

I guess in this situation, I think total NC is the only way to go. But we did discuss the possibility that maybe one day, when he has gone through his divorce and healed, if I have given my 100% effort at home and discovered that it is not going to work (even with MM totally out of my marriage), then perhaps, we could have something. But only then, when it could be out of the muck and darkness.

I guess that's why I don't totally understand your perspective. Does "living right" come into play at all? I guess that feels ironic coming from the mouth of someone who had an affair. But maybe it feels all the more important now that I know what it feels like to live wrong.

August 20, 2015

OK, so here's my thought. This is from the perspective of what I believe would have worked best for me, as far as my AP getting me to leave my marriage for her.

If you have tried everything and hate the relationship and what it does to you (and there are a ton of reasons why you should), the NC is the way to go. Heal yourself and prepare for the next relationship.

If you truly want him to leave his wife, you have to walk a fine line. Going NC doesn't work, or at least not for me. The closest I came to leaving was when we communicated, she dated others, and we set expectations and kept each other accountable. It only lasted a week or two before she went NC again on advice of her therapist, so there is a good chance that it wouldn't have worked. Having said that, in those two weeks, I broached divorce with my wife, met and attorney, bought a ring (what a weird thing), and did some other stuff too.

In retrospect, I should have suggested that we meet with her therapist together so that he therapist could counsel her better. I also think we should have told her friends and family so that she didn't have to keep the secret as a burden. But, having said that, As have a VERY low conversion ratio so perhaps none of that would have worked.

As a former MOW in an affair with a MOM whom I did marry I think you are only scratching the surface right now. You should want to divorce regardless of the AP being in the picture or now. I know that I did and my (now) husband felt the same. A safety net in the wings there shouldn't be the catalyst to push you so that tells me you actually aren't done with the marriage/or able to overcome your fears.

So whether your AP goes NC, your decision to divorce should be made, to do it or not, on its own merits and rest there. Right now I think you are looking for a women, either the AP or your wife, to be your safety net so you aren't alone and that isn't fair to either one of them. You are hedging your bets and not really owning it.

I also think you are using this "conversion rate" as a scapegoat. You aren't a statistic, you are you, your situation is your situation. So I think that is just your outward excuse on really you are afraid to jump off the cliff/not ready to jump off the cliff/don't really actually want to jump.

I know, that my husband moved heaven and earth to be with me. I did walk and told him that he could try and catch up and if I was still interested, great, if not, his loss. If what you stated above, was too much of an obstacle, then sorry I would have been greatly doubting his love and conviction to what he was telling me and himself.

So I think you need to figure out what is the right road to take without factoring in what warm body may be available. What is the right decision for your life and what is the decision that brings you the most peace.

I understand it is hard and scary but get some therapy yourself and get it figured out. Whatever woman you are with deserved to have you present and accountable for 110%. Don't add insult to injury with your wife and stay with her because it is better than being alone. Commit to your marriage, if that is what you want to do, because you are 110% behind it. If not, leave and give her the chance to find a person who will appreciate what she has to offer. Sometimes people don't work together, and that is fine, but we shouldn't hold them hostage because they are a security blanket.

I wish you all the luck with everything and hope you find peace and happiness.

August 20, 2015

If it happens in the first 30 days, doesn't that make it an Exit-type affair as they call it, and not really about the AP at all? In this case, wouldn't the MM probably not end up with the AP?

an A can be an exit affair - but an exit affair doesn't mean that the feelings or the relationship with the AP aren't real. it also doesn't mean that it won't last.

in reality - no A is ever about an AP. it's about the bad or unfulfilling marriage & about the character + feelings of the person who cheats (who is IN that relationship).

when you're leaving one relationship (or a marriage) it always has to be for YOU and because you aren't happy and because... no matter what happens with your AP, you don't see any future or happiness in that relationship. leaving solely for the AP - in a way that you leave the responsibility on your AP's shoulders...? doesn't work.

August 20, 2015

an A can be an exit affair - but an exit affair doesn't mean that the feelings or the relationship with the AP aren't real. it also doesn't mean that it won't last.

in reality - no A is ever about an AP. it's about the bad or unfulfilling marriage & about the character + feelings of the person who cheats (who is IN that relationship).

when you're leaving one relationship (or a marriage) it always has to be for YOU and because you aren't happy and because... no matter what happens with your AP, you don't see any future or happiness in that relationship. leaving solely for the AP - in a way that you leave the responsibility on your AP's shoulders...? doesn't work.

I disagree with the bolded. A good part why I was in the affair was for him specifically. It wasn't like I would have considered one with just anyone else. While the other items listed definitely factored in, for myself, it was a lot about my AP on why I even considered a relationship with him.

August 20, 2015

I disagree with the bolded. A good part why I was in the affair was for him specifically. It wasn't like I would have considered one with just anyone else. While the other items listed definitely factored in, for myself, it was a lot about my AP on why I even considered a relationship with him.

i understand - but if your marriage was a GOOD one, a fantastic one... then there would be no A at all... no matter who was the AP, am i right?

the start is always in the marriage (1st relationship) -- from there, everything starts. of course the affair is about an AP - meaning that you actually have to meet someone you find WORTHY to even enter an A, worthy of that risk... no? but again, what made you vulnerable to an affair at all was the state of your marriage (this is talking just about YOUR marriage). & when you left the marriage... sure, you left to plan a better future with your AP but if your AP wasn't in the picture at all... would your marriage survive the next, let's say, 10 years?

in that sense, adultery can never be about a 3rd party - meaning, it never STARTS with the 3rd party, it starts sooner. much sooner. that's what i was talking about.

i personally don't like saying that an affair is about an AP MOSTLY because in that way, i feel like i'm bringing the "homewrecker" myth back to life and putting the responsibility of the failed marriage on the AP. it supports the "seductive evil temptress stole my husband" narrative, at least that's the way i feel.

Edited August 20, 2015 by minimariah

August 20, 2015

i understand - but if your marriage was a GOOD one, a fantastic one... then there would be no A at all... no matter who was the AP, am i right?

the start is always in the marriage (1st relationship) -- from there, everything starts. of course the affair is about an AP - meaning that you actually have to meet someone you find WORTHY to even enter an A, worthy of that risk... no? but again, what made you vulnerable to an affair at all was the state of your marriage (this is talking just about YOUR marriage). & when you left the marriage... sure, you left to plan a better future with your AP but if your AP wasn't in the picture at all... would your marriage survive the next, let's say, 10 years?

in that sense, adultery can never be about a 3rd party - meaning, it never STARTS with the 3rd party, it starts sooner. much sooner. that's what i was talking about.

i personally don't like saying that an affair is about an AP MOSTLY because in that way, i feel like i'm bringing the "homewrecker" myth back to life and putting the responsibility of the failed marriage on the AP. it supports the "seductive evil temptress stole my husband" narrative, at least that's the way i feel.

Yep I agree where you are going with it and agree on what you are trying to avoid. Though I don't know that even if my marriage had been great if meeting him would not have set off the fireworks that it did. But, to be honest, I am REALLY struggling to envision my first marriage in such a state to know how I would have felt and acted.

I guess if I look at my current marriage, one I am 100% happy in, I can't imagine being attracted to someone else. Giving the caveat that realistically I will be attracted to someone else because statistically that is more likely to happen, knowing what I know now, the good the bad and the ugly, I would not cheat again because it is a WHOLE lot of energy, time and effort that I am too tired to do. That is something my husband and I both seem agree upon.

But yes, I think you are right that I would not have been so open to not just an affair, I may have messed around with someone/kissed them, but having sex with someone else since I was still a onsie at that point, was the biggest deal. That was the final blow and my final catalyst for divorcing. I just couldn't stay in it after crossing that line. I had to be done.

So, yes, while my AP was a major factor to be to continue in an affair with him, my lack of commitment, happiness, and respect of my marriage allowed the door to be open to consider crossing the line.

August 20, 2015

I'm truly curious, because I don't hear this brought up in your posts at all.

Does morality come into this for you? Guilt? Right and wrong? Are you religious at all? It's okay if not. I'm just curious.

I am a MW who just ended my affair. I loved my AP. I still do. He is also married, but moving closer to divorcing. He and his wife are just nearing the end, they do not have a good marriage. His decision to divorce is his alone; I have nothing to do with it.

My marriage is not over (at least, not yet) and I don't feel right not giving myself to it, not giving it 100%. Which means that I feel guilty even continuing LC in any form. It feels wrong, like I am continuing to betray my husband. I can never get rid of the guilt.

My MM isn't capable of a relationship anyway, not one that I am secure with. So we mutually parted ways.

I guess in this situation, I think total NC is the only way to go. But we did discuss the possibility that maybe one day, when he has gone through his divorce and healed, if I have given my 100% effort at home and discovered that it is not going to work (even with MM totally out of my marriage), then perhaps, we could have something. But only then, when it could be out of the muck and darkness.

I guess that's why I don't totally understand your perspective. Does "living right" come into play at all? I guess that feels ironic coming from the mouth of someone who had an affair. But maybe it feels all the more important now that I know what it feels like to live wrong.

What you said seems odd, because how can you ever give 100% to your marriage if even .00001% is still holding dreams of being with MM?

August 20, 2015

What makes you hold onto the maybe someday thought if you know you can't leave your M?

August 20, 2015

Hello Jaskiegs,

Thanks for doing this, its very interesting to get this kind of perspective from a position so different from my own.

I have a few questions regarding your marriage;

Why did you propose to your now wife?

When did you feel things started being unfulfilling in your marriage, was it before the AP came along or after?

We're you actively looking for an affair to fulfil your unmet needs? If not, did you have some kind of plan to resolve the issues you were having?

Have you actually ever had a conversation with your wife along the lines of 'I am currently so unfulfilled/unhappy etc that I am seriously considering sleeping with/forming an inappropriate emotional attachment with another woman'?

Do you feel if your wife had behaved differently you wouldn't have had the affair?

Sorry, went on a bit longer than I originally intended there...

August 20, 2015

I will talk about the last six months more in the thread for those interested in how a guy goes from buying an engagement ring for his OW to saying goodbye. It's not full resolved in my head but I will try to dedicate some time to writing about it if people are interested.

I am interested. I'm sure other OW are too.

August 20, 2015

So, yes, while my AP was a major factor to be to continue in an affair with him, my lack of commitment, happiness, and respect of my marriage allowed the door to be open to consider crossing the line.

^^ exactly this.

just to clarify - when i say that the A doesn't have anything to do with the AP, i'm in no way saying that the AP does not matter or that the person is irrelevant. just like another poster wrote - sometimes, we don't even know the true state of the relationship we're in until the right person comes along.

OP - thank you for opening up. it's super helpful.

August 20, 2015

I've been in the biggest mixed bag of emotions with this.

For the weeks and then months leading up until yesterday, all I've wanted to do was end it. I've had my moments of confusion and of course feeling love towards MM but generally, I've just wanted out.

And then yesterday happened and now I'm just feeling confused and my emotions are pulled back in the other direction and now I don't know and I'm scared. And I'm hoping it's just a reaction to it finally being over.

So my goal this entire time has been to give 100% to my marriage. I really never intended to hang onto anything. It's been these last few days that have messed me over I guess. I've been through this pattern before...I am trying to remember that...I think it's just my fear. I am kind of a disaster at the moment. Posting here as a lifeline.

You didn't love the MM from the start, you didn't know he had things you were looking for in a man or relationship from the start, so the affair was about YOU and how you felt about YOUR marriage. I think its important that you find what those things are. If you are successful there then I think you can find your way back. Dealing with the emotions of your affair and for MM is between your ears and is easier then many here want to admit. Once you truly get to the point where you want it over it will be, that's what we fight in these situations. Its not fear, its being split between doing what you KNOW you need to do and not wanting to do it. Desire will over time overpower morality, will can overpower desire.

August 20, 2015

You didn't love the MM from the start, you didn't know he had things you were looking for in a man or relationship from the start, so the affair was about YOU and how you felt about YOUR marriage. I think its important that you find what those things are. If you are successful there then I think you can find your way back. Dealing with the emotions of your affair and for MM is between your ears and is easier then many here want to admit. Once you truly get to the point where you want it over it will be, that's what we fight in these situations. Its not fear, its being split between doing what you KNOW you need to do and not wanting to do it. Desire will over time overpower morality, will can overpower desire.

Oh, thank you for this. I am there now. I have fought this huge battle all by myself. I am ready for it to be over. This is one horrible thing about being in an affair and then trying to get out. Your affair partner is really the only person who shares this secret with you. So trying to extricate yourself is like a nightmare. I think I have allowed him back from sheer loneliness before. But I am prepared this time to fight through, no matter what.

August 20, 2015

Oh, thank you for this. I am there now. I have fought this huge battle all by myself. I am ready for it to be over. This is one horrible thing about being in an affair and then trying to get out. Your affair partner is really the only person who shares this secret with you. So trying to extricate yourself is like a nightmare. I think I have allowed him back from sheer loneliness before. But I am prepared this time to fight through, no matter what.

I don't want to jack this thread and turn it into something else, so this is my last comment.

This is why confession is important. People simply don't understand how holding this kind of secret can bind/bond you to someone. It gives you the feeling of being in it "together" with the AP. On the flipside confessing could (and most often does with WW's) lead to the end of both relationships at the same time...

Good luck to you.

August 20, 2015

I don't want to jack this thread and turn it into something else, so this is my last comment.

This is why confession is important. People simply don't understand how holding this kind of secret can bind/bond you to someone. It gives you the feeling of being in it "together" with the AP. On the flipside confessing could (and most often does with WW's) lead to the end of both relationships at the same time...

Good luck to you.

That is utterly terrifying. I've confessed once...how could I do it again? It seems hopeless.

Sorry OP.

August 21, 2015

I will talk about the last six months more in the thread for those interested in how a guy goes from buying an engagement ring for his OW to saying goodbye. It's not full resolved in my head but I will try to dedicate some time to writing about it if people are interested.

I would love to hear your take on this, as my exAP went from leaving his wife and telling me we had our chance now, to going completely NC on me in a matter of days.

August 21, 2015

Did you ever feel judged by your ow for not doing the "right" thing? Were you ever upset with her for not being patient? How much patience do you feel entitled to? Does her respect for you matter? For yourself?

I was a mow now divorced. I started questioning my own morality. I saw the need to not live a lie and take the consequences. If I didn't love my h, or even respect him, I needed to respect the fact I married him and he's still deserving of a woman who is honest even if the truth is hard. He should be an equal voter in staying in a loveless m or not. And I have two young kids.

Exmm was going to break my heart regardless because he was staying married. However, the reasons mattered. To me at least. I would've respected exmm more if his reasons were not cowardly. If he realized his w was who he wanted and the A was a mistake, fine. But to say he loves me but just can't do anything about it... Makes me not believe him or be able to look him in the eye. Stand up for something. If not for me, then your marriage, if not your marriage your personal integrity.

There are other reasons I wouldn't want to be with him now, but the fear and indecisiveness alone would make me seriously hesitate to give him a second chance. Women want a man with a backbone.

I think he sensed that and took it as judgement and retreated. Wondering if facing those things was an issue for you.

August 21, 2015

Why do you want to marinade in the OW's pain? My xMM did this and I don't really understand it.

August 21, 2015

Oh dear... its the runaway train, sinking ship scenario all over again.

Can see you a mile off.

Anyone else pick up on this?

August 21, 2015

I am not trying to give false hope to OW. It is incredibly unlikely that he will leave his M. If he were going to do it, it would most likely be within the first 30 days. But that doesn't mean that it CAN'T happen.

I found an old thread on here that surveyed OW members whose fMM had left to be with them, and around 3 years was the average IIRC. Some were quicker, some were longer. That makes sense to me, as - unless it's a classic "exit A" where the MM is poised to jump as soon as an OW comes along to provide a soft landing - people need time to fall in love, and weigh up whether breaking up a family / home is the way tyou NGO for them. For most people, those are not decisions to be made lightly. If I met someone and he left his M "for me" within 30 days, I'd be very wary and would likely run a mile.

August 21, 2015

I guess the point is, though, that a multi-year A that isn't (in the mind of the OW) about sex alone has a very low likelihood of success. Basically approaching zero. But to have a chance, I believe it depends on realistic goals, expectations, and accountability, along with a combination of pain (periods of LC) and pleasure (not going completely dark and trying to be somewhat supportive). Perhaps that is naive on my part...it probably is.

As one of the "approaching zero" success stories, I agree with some, but only some, of this. Realistic goals, for sure. But pain? Why? Why should that be necessary? We didn't do pain - that strikes a as more of the game-playing you seem to endorse. We simply fell in love, discussed how it might work, decided on the most workable scenario, put plans in place and made them happen. No games, no pain, just lots of communication, complete honesty and treating each other with respect and care throughout - which, it seems, was what was missing from your R with your xOW.

August 21, 2015

Wow...lots of activity on this thread. I won't have a ton of time for responses to those who directed things at me but I will try a couple. Having said that, I wanted to post a catch all that relates to a number of posts.

Please understand that I am in no way justifying or defending my behavior. I cheated. The fact that I fell in love with the women with whom I cheated does not mitigate the original crime. Then, I compounded that by hurting the OW whom I loved (love still). There is a ton of guilt as it relates to these two facts. I don't know that it will ever be better but I try to make today just a little bit better than yesterday so I guess we'll see.

One other thing. There is no hard and fast rule to this crap. All I know about my relationship with my exOW is that I, at one point, was rushing toward her...and then I stopped. I've examined why for a while and don't have all the answers as to 1) why I rushed toward her, and 2) why I stopped. But once I stopped, I knew it had to end (it took a few weeks to do that but eventually we did). I will write about that period of 6 months as some people have expressed a desire to read it and I probably have to write it for myself anyway but I won't do that until I have the time to dedicate to it because I don't want to miscommunicate.

OK, one more other thing. I know that my existence and my comments anger some people, particularly former OW. I am sorry. That is not my intent. I hold no grudges if you hate me. Just understand, I am trying to be honest. That doesn't mean that I am being honest as it is very easy to lie to yourself in this situation (as many OW can attest to as well), just that I'm trying.

August 21, 2015

I'm truly curious, because I don't hear this brought up in your posts at all.

Does morality come into this for you? Guilt? Right and wrong? Are you religious at all? It's okay if not. I'm just curious.

Yes, morality comes into it. The guilt I feel the strongest is how I treated the OW. There is a ton of guilt there. I mean, we had in many ways a good relationship, partial though it was, but at the end of the day, she may have met someone else while we were together and I forclosed on that. I told her many, many times that I was bad for her and often tried to push her away, but when I was with her, everything else melted away. And for that, I feel horrible.

As it relates to my W, yes, I feel guilty. Maybe guilty isn't exactly right. I feel a complete lack of integrity. I don't feel bad about falling in love with someone else...there are lots of reasons why that happened. I feel bad about lacking the strength to do something clean about it.

I am not religious.

Does "living right" come into play at all? I guess that feels ironic coming from the mouth of someone who had an affair. But maybe it feels all the more important now that I know what it feels like to live wrong.

Yes, I am trying to travel toward the land of living right. I'm not sure if I will get there but we'll see. Thank you for your post, btw.

August 21, 2015

What makes you hold onto the maybe someday thought if you know you can't leave your M?

I don't know that I can't leave her. And this point goes toward some comments others have made. I ended the A for two reasons. First, I held my OW back too long and for some reason, I stopped moving toward her (after two or three weeks last year where I was, I think, very close to ending the M). Second, I ended it so that I could decide, on its own merits, if my M was worth saving assuming I tried to put energy into it.

As far as the someday, even knowing the pain I caused, nearly every day I want a life with my exOW. I love her. I wish I didn't, trust me. I wish it were just sex. So that part of me holds on to it. And, I know, that if she really tried to contact me, I'm not strong enough to hold her back. If she knocked on my door and told my wife that she loved me and that we were having an affair, I would be distraught for my kids and happy as a clam for myself.

What a weird place to find myself in. Intellectually, I know it's of my own doing, I just don't remember doing it.

August 21, 2015

That is utterly terrifying. I've confessed once...how could I do it again? It seems hopeless.

Sorry OP.

My writing is for me but the thread it for others, like you. There's no need to apologize. And, like you, I am not at the point where I feel I can or should confess. I know others disagree with this but I've put some thought into and discussed it with my counselor. It's not the choice for everyone but it's where I am today. Tomorrow? We'll see I guess.

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