World's.Edge Posted August 24, 2015 Posted August 24, 2015 (edited) I think the problem with an RA is that it only has one purpose, and that is to hurt the WS. While this might be a small distinction to some, but for the most part, while the A was selfish, it usually isn't designed to hurt the BS. RA's only make things worse. And it doesn't put anyone on level ground just two equally awful grounds. It won't take away the pain felt over either A, it won't make it even. Not to mention, how do you decide with who and how to keep that from turning into a separate A? Speaking of which, how could you determine "even"? Do you make a points system and then cheat until you are at the same score? Who keeps track? What if you overdo it? I fail to see how in a situation involving too many genitals in a relationship, adding more helps at all. For me the main problem with the revenge affair is it is actually worse then a normal affair. When I say that I do not mean to say it merely makes the situation worse(which it does) but most of the time people do not cheat specifically to harm their spouse. A revenge affair is 100% sex meant only to hurt your partner. It's the difference between accidentally hitting someone with your car and purposely running them down. So you actually wind up looking worse then the person you are trying to get back at for hurting you. Which then means you have no ground to stand on. So unless you are doing the RA to end the marriage..well, it takes away any "high ground" you might of had in the situation so to speak if you ever intended to try to work it out. I disagree with MrVegas in that (revenge) affairs serve only to hurt the wayward spouse and also with Spectre in that a (revenge) affair is 100% sex meant only to hurt your partner. I'm sure that there are affairs that are meant to hurt the wayward spouse for their affair, but there is a myriad of reasons why spouses enter into affairs after they've experienced infidelity, just like there are a number reasons the initial cheater had their affair, the reasons may even be similar. You can't speak for everyone or generalize as to why a spouse would have a revenge affair. Why is it that affairs 'just happen' by magic to the wayward spouse but it's incredulous for the betrayed spouse to have one? The betrayed spouse is just as human and vulnerable (if not more) to making bad choices and behaviour as the wayward spouse is. I have no concerns about moral high ground, being even or who looks worse. These are all just trivial abstract concepts. Infidelity is personal to the betrayed spouse. It affects them, their thoughts, their psychological and emotional well-being, and their choices, and affairs are a result of choices. In some instances, an affair does help the betrayed spouse feel better or even make the two spouses "even". I know of one where it had a postive affect on the betrayed spouse. It allowed them to come out of a deep depression and improved their sense of self-worth, after therapy and anti-depressants had had no effect. There was a story where a revenge affair (where the betrayed spouse was upfront about it) did make the betrayed spouse feel better and make the serial cheater realize how awful their behaviour was through having experienced the pain themselves. *This post is not me advocating for revenge affairs, I'd just understand if someone had one. Edited August 24, 2015 by World's.Edge 1
MrVegas Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I disagree with MrVegas in that (revenge) affairs serve only to hurt the wayward spouse and also with Spectre in that a (revenge) affair is 100% sex meant only to hurt your partner. I disagree with your disagreement Allow me to clarify that I would only consider it an RA if the purpose and motivation was to "get even" or hurt the WS. I certainly wouldn't consider a separate A by the BS to be just an RA. I definitely agree that you can't generalize all A's asfitting a certain type and definition. A's are as unique as thes situations that led to them. 1
World's.Edge Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I disagree with your disagreement Allow me to clarify that I would only consider it an RA if the purpose and motivation was to "get even" or hurt the WS. I certainly wouldn't consider a separate A by the BS to be just an RA. I definitely agree that you can't generalize all A's asfitting a certain type and definition. A's are as unique as thes situations that led to them. Uh wait, what:confused:? You can't do that.. can you? OMG this changes everything!!! I agree with your disagreement of my disagreement that a revenge affair in the true sense of the expression (the revenge part) with the motivation being specifically to hurt the wayward spouse or "get even" is a revenge affair. I also agree with your agreement that not all affairs can be generalized.
EmbraceTheChange Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 (edited) R.A are not meant to hurt the W.S, that's only the added bonus. The B.S does it to prove to him/herself that he/she's not a total dog, a total loser, can still attract partners, and is worth being with. The thing is with infidelity (in my case anyway) I fell discarded, like a paper plate. My husband found somebody "better", a Ms Fantastic, and everything I brought to the relationship - myself, my skills, my commitment and dedication, the 5 kids we made, our family we created - was crapped on and didn't mean anything to him. So you can be sure I was going to try to prove my "worth", as a female. I registered on A.M, I answered ads on C.L, I registered on O.L.D. I never went through anything, apart from one date (restaurant meal) with one guy. Total disaster (of course) because I was not ready to date again, and make space in my life for somebody. Also registering on A.M was a huge smack in the face, because I saw how many married guys were after affairs, and since I just experienced being on the ****ty side of one, it didn't make me happier. Yes it fell good for around 15 seconds that guys wanted to meet me, but we're not talking "quality" people here, only pond life. So no, R.A are no designed to hurt the W.S (though it does feel good to say "in your face!"), they're there to boost one's totally demolished self-esteem. Edited August 25, 2015 by EmbraceTheChange 1
JohnAdams Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 R.A are not meant to hurt the W.S, that's only the added bonus. The B.S does it to prove to him/herself that he/she's not a total dog, a total loser, can still attract partners, and is worth being with. I originally thought of my RA this way. It was really not about revenge as much as for ego. I soon learned that this does not work and all you do is lower your moral standard and end up feeling worse. The thing is with infidelity (in my case anyway) I fell discarded, like a paper plate. My husband found somebody "better", a Ms Fantastic, and everything I brought to the relationship - myself, my skills, my commitment and dedication, the 5 kids we made, our family we created - was crapped on and didn't mean anything to him. Yep, I think this is how many BS's end up feeling. An affair is never the answer though. If a person cannot take the high ground then a divorce is in order. In reality, we should have divorced. I am glad we did not as things worked out for us, but it took a long time. I always felt there should have been a defined ending to that portion of our life, a separation or divorce, but I was afraid that would make it final and as hurt as I was I still loved my wife. So you can be sure I was going to try to prove my "worth", as a female. I registered on A.M, I answered ads on C.L, I registered on O.L.D. I never went through anything, apart from one date (restaurant meal) with one guy. Total disaster (of course) because I was not ready to date again, and make space in my life for somebody. Also registering on A.M was a huge smack in the face, because I saw how many married guys were after affairs, and since I just experienced being on the ****ty side of one, it didn't make me happier. Yes it fell good for around 15 seconds that guys wanted to meet me, but we're not talking "quality" people here, only pond life. Fortunately, my RA was pre internet, so none of these temptations existed for me. So no, R.A are no designed to hurt the W.S (though it does feel good to say "in your face!"), they're there to boost one's totally demolished self-esteem. Yes, the only trouble is that they do not work. They only make things worse. Even ego wise, I never felt the ow was as pretty, smart or had the personality of my wife. I felt I traded down while she traded up. So, you will never satisfy your ego and in reality only hurt who you are by lowering your morals and throwing your principles out the door. 3
Spectre Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I disagree with MrVegas in that (revenge) affairs serve only to hurt the wayward spouse and also with Spectre in that a (revenge) affair is 100% sex meant only to hurt your partner. I'm sure that there are affairs that are meant to hurt the wayward spouse for their affair, but there is a myriad of reasons why spouses enter into affairs after they've experienced infidelity, just like there are a number reasons the initial cheater had their affair, the reasons may even be similar. You can't speak for everyone or generalize as to why a spouse would have a revenge affair. Why is it that affairs 'just happen' by magic to the wayward spouse but it's incredulous for the betrayed spouse to have one? The betrayed spouse is just as human and vulnerable (if not more) to making bad choices and behaviour as the wayward spouse is. I have no concerns about moral high ground, being even or who looks worse. These are all just trivial abstract concepts. Infidelity is personal to the betrayed spouse. It affects them, their thoughts, their psychological and emotional well-being, and their choices, and affairs are a result of choices. In some instances, an affair does help the betrayed spouse feel better or even make the two spouses "even". I know of one where it had a postive affect on the betrayed spouse. It allowed them to come out of a deep depression and improved their sense of self-worth, after therapy and anti-depressants had had no effect. There was a story where a revenge affair (where the betrayed spouse was upfront about it) did make the betrayed spouse feel better and make the serial cheater realize how awful their behaviour was through having experienced the pain themselves. *This post is not me advocating for revenge affairs, I'd just understand if someone had one. You seem confused. A revenge affair is specifically an affair meant to get revenge. That is 100% meant to hurt someone and nothing else. It is *not* the same thing as having an affair as a result of infidelity. A person can get cheated on..and end up feeling vulnerable and unattractive and cheat. That is NOT a revenge affair then. So you can say not all affairs that happen after being cheated on are revenge affairs, which is fine since nobody said that anyways. So yep, revenge affairs are 100% about "I wanna hurt you". You can have no concerns about the moral high ground, but it doesn't change the fact a revenge affair destroys said high ground and actually puts them on a lower ground then their cheating spouse. 1
EmbraceTheChange Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Frankly, I'm not sure an R.A really hurts a W.S, because the W.S is detached anyway from the marriage (hence them having an affair). It probably hurts their ego and pride - the same way as a 3 years old doesn't care about a toy until somebody else wants it. But does an R.A pull the rug under their feet and they see their entire world collapse? No. They were not committed anyway to the marriage, they were committed to somebody else. When a B.S has a R.A it's because they want to feel better. The R.A comes from a place of hurt, and that's why they don't work. And for a revenge affair to be a revenge, the WS needs to be aware of it. Though they are definitely better ways to get revenge than just getting off with somebody: divorce and having a great life with the WS left behind (along with the mind-****s, lies, etc).
autumnnight Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I think if a WS really has completely checked out of a M, the RA won't really affect them except give them yet another justification. The RA would be most hurtful if it was done in a situation where the couple wanted to reconcile. Of course, then it would be most destructive too. I guess a BS could pretend to be reconciling and then really get the WS by having an RA instead. That'd really stick it to em good. And for those who believe their choices and character are dependent on others' it might be satisfying.
SSJROMANCE Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 I honestly think you might feel better if you cheat. But perhaps don't do it until it feels right with the right person. Cheating just to cheat might backfire on you and your emotions. My wife lied to be about her past. She was promiscuous and I for the most part had long term relationships. When I found out about this after we were married I felt like she had cheated on my. Technically she did not but the feeling felt like she did. Thinking of her with all these guys feels awful. I ofter imagine that one day I may just get revenge and if the time comes I probably will cheat. I don't know for sure but a good portion of me thinks that the pain will go away if I do. You have to do what feels right for you not what is right for others out on this forum. My wife lied to me our whole marriage and I feel like a punching bag just taking the shots. I shouldn't have to feel this way and you shouldn't either.
autumnnight Posted August 25, 2015 Posted August 25, 2015 Like I said, revenge cheating is a good option for people who think they only have to have character if other people do. If a person believes they are responsible for their own actions and character regardless of those around them, he or she probably won't feel so great after a revenge A.
Spectre Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 Frankly, I'm not sure an R.A really hurts a W.S, because the W.S is detached anyway from the marriage (hence them having an affair). It probably hurts their ego and pride - the same way as a 3 years old doesn't care about a toy until somebody else wants it. But does an R.A pull the rug under their feet and they see their entire world collapse? No. They were not committed anyway to the marriage, they were committed to somebody else. When a B.S has a R.A it's because they want to feel better. The R.A comes from a place of hurt, and that's why they don't work. And for a revenge affair to be a revenge, the WS needs to be aware of it. Though they are definitely better ways to get revenge than just getting off with somebody: divorce and having a great life with the WS left behind (along with the mind-****s, lies, etc). First off we weren't talking about whether RA's hurt anyone. Second, the other person doesn't actually need to be aware of the RA. See, for some sicko's? Just knowing they had an affair and their spouse believes they didn't is enough revenge. A sort of "ha, jokes on you". You also seem naive if you think a wayward wouldn't be hurt by a revenge affair. Cheaters are some of the most selfish people on the planet and a good chunk of them have no qualms with double standards and all that. So yeah, you could totally hurt a cheater by cheating. And nope, it's not always about their ego getting hurt. Sometimes a persons ego is what leads them to cheat, and their feelings are what get hurt when that comes back to them. You act like cheaters have no feelings for their spouse and I tend to agree, but this forum would tend to disagree. I would be a billionaire if I had even a penny for every time I saw someone begin a topic with "I love my spouse" and then proceed to destroy the sh*t out of that sentence by talking about how they have been cheating on this person. 1
World's.Edge Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 You seem confused. A revenge affair is specifically an affair meant to get revenge. That is 100% meant to hurt someone and nothing else. It is *not* the same thing as having an affair as a result of infidelity. A person can get cheated on..and end up feeling vulnerable and unattractive and cheat. That is NOT a revenge affair then. So you can say not all affairs that happen after being cheated on are revenge affairs, which is fine since nobody said that anyways. So yep, revenge affairs are 100% about "I wanna hurt you". You can have no concerns about the moral high ground, but it doesn't change the fact a revenge affair destroys said high ground and actually puts them on a lower ground then their cheating spouse. What?!! I'm not confused:mad:, how dare you. If anyone is confused it's you. Just because you... .. ja, you're right. In my reading on these forums, 'revenge affair' is typically used to refer to an affair by the betrayed spouse so I understood it as such, as a blanket term for any subsequent affair by the betrayed spouse for whatever reason. I don't agree with concepts of moral high/low ground. What's it really worth to view or place yourself in a position of feeling superior or inferior to someone else. I wouldn't advocate a revenge affair because I would just leave the relationship, but in a situation where the adulterer is a serial cheater, unremorseful, gas-lights and blameshifts the betrayed spouse and for whatever reason the betrayed won't end the relationship, then a revenge affair might be in order. The ability to feel remorse, empathize or even care and be considerate as to how one's behaviour affects the people in their lives may be foreign to some people. Sometimes experience is the best teacher, and for a cheater who doesn't feel remorse, lacks empathy, and the perspective and understanding of the affects of their behaviour, or just doesn't give a s***, experiencing infidelity themselves may impress upon them the major suck of being on the receiving end of their behaviour ... or create a bigger disaster. 1
Morro72 Posted August 26, 2015 Posted August 26, 2015 If my wife got drunk and drove her car into a tree the one thing that would make me feel better would be to get good and tanked up and slam into a bridge abutment. 2
m.snow Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 1.) come on would a thief want to be robbed. 2.) would a murderer want to be killed. 3.) would a marine want to be shot. that just life! people want to cheat but don't want to be cheated on. specially among wayward wives, after ww had a 4 year affair and bh has a ONS. then ww wife screams on the forum "its over!" "he never loved me!" wtf!
Author TX-SC Posted August 27, 2015 Author Posted August 27, 2015 If my wife got drunk and drove her car into a tree the one thing that would make me feel better would be to get good and tanked up and slam into a bridge abutment. I have never compared sex to driving drunk into a tree. But, if that's how it works for you, more power to ya! An affair is a fun romp in bed with an affair partner. I think most WS enjoy the "ride". It's certainly not like driving drunk and hitting a tree. So, why do they get all the fun while the BS gets only heartache and pain? 1
flowergirl14 Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 After I discovered my wh affair and all the terrible that followed. I made a mental list of what things might make me feel better. I thought about a r.a. or rather an affair. The affair in my mind would not have been about revenge but more about reclaiming my self esteem. I wanted to do anything not to face the pain. My thinking was that an affair would take me to a place where it would take the focus off of wh. It would be for me. I never persued this because logically and ethically I do not have the desire to hurt those I love even my wh. But i thought about it. Not proud of thinking that. People will do anything not to face the pain. They will go around it , under it or whatever. They dont want to go through it.
ShatteredLady Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 Quick recap.... Had D-day (Mothers day), H said NC, lies, had another d-day of sorts...then there was about a week, I think, not sure (felt like an eternity! I was insane!) where H was still emailing her & I knew. Ugh!! At that point I offered an 'Open Relationship'. Not that I wanted that but as I said, I was insane! My H was HORRIFIED at the idea of ME doing what he was 'openly' doing!! The idea of another man touching me, even showing emotional interest in me REALLY got to him. I could see the jealousy & anger in his face when I mentioned names of men I knew!! The whole WS is so weird & alien. Even when my husband says he knows how much he's hurt me & how guilty he feels....He's truly sincere!....I don't think he can even start to truly understand what it feels like unless he's walked in my preverbal shoes. I never imagined that something could hurt this much on this many different levels! it's beyond agony & I've known a lot of pain in my life. There were times at the start of all this that I wished my H had experienced the crazy, the blinding agony of romantic adultery. I know I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy but maybe if more WS knew what it was truly like they wouldn't even imagine doing it. I don't know. RA could seem like a good idea but it would never be the same. It's the "Connection" & "Bond" & 'betrayal of trust, vows, morals, EVERYTHING, that rips your heart out.
66Charger Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) 10 characters Edited August 27, 2015 by 66Charger
m.snow Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 Revenge affair for a man is not about getting even with the WW, its about getting even with the OM? ~if that guy can have many women, why can't i? specially if bh is very conservative. an affair can shake the foundation of his belief in the sanctity of marriage.
autumnnight Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 And again, I choose to be the kind of person whose character and morals do not depend on whether someone else keeps THEIRS. We are either personally responsible for our own actions or we are not.
Author TX-SC Posted August 27, 2015 Author Posted August 27, 2015 I guess my original question comes down to this: In a monogamous marriage, both parties agree to uphold the sanctity of the marriage. They both agree to be monogamous. When one partner decides to step out of that marriage and have an affair, it destroys that pact. So, if the BS decides to also step out, they are now doing so because of the actions of the WS. The WS should in fact see that coming and accept that their spouse is doing nothing more than what they did. AND, in fact, it was the WS who broke that pact, so she/he is to blame. Given the above, it's surprising how many BS get angry and hurt when the tables are turned. I don't buy the notion that an affair by the WS is for revenge only. In fact, I think it may be about being on equal footing with the WS and about regaining something that was lost. In most cases, an affair leaves the BS feeling like a lesser man/woman than they thought they were. Am I not enough of a man to keep her happy? Is my penis too small? Am I not good enough in bed? Why am I not enough for her (reverse this for women)? Having an affair in return can show the BS that they were not lacking. And, hell, it might be fun for a while. It's also surprising how many women and men treat their spouse different from their AP. The spouse becomes good old faithful while the affair is a fun romp. I was reading on SI about a guy who's wife had an affair. She did all this stuff with the AP that she would NOT do with him. Anal, swallowing, bondage, etc. All the while, she would call him sick if he brought up those things. So, why not go out and find someone else too then? She won't do them because she sees the marriage as something different from the affair. Yes, I know about compartmentalizing, but that's pretty damn unfair for the BS. I gave him anal sex but I would NEVER do that with you! We'll then, screw you. I'll find someone on the side to do that.
autumnnight Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 Interesting.....so as long as someone ELSE breaks a promise or does something wrong first....if I do it AFTER them, it is no longer wrong.....
toolforgrowth Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 Interesting.....so as long as someone ELSE breaks a promise or does something wrong first....if I do it AFTER them, it is no longer wrong..... In some cases, yes. You're welcome to disagree, I'm not trying to change your mind. But I'm definitely in the camp of a BS has every right to go out and get what their WS did with others and refused to give to the BS. It sure helped me kick my WW to the curb and never look back.
Author TX-SC Posted August 27, 2015 Author Posted August 27, 2015 Interesting.....so as long as someone ELSE breaks a promise or does something wrong first....if I do it AFTER them, it is no longer wrong..... In this context, yes. The WS gets to go have his/her love affair and all of the joy that brings. The BS gets what? A good feeling that THEY at least didn't cheat?
autumnnight Posted August 27, 2015 Posted August 27, 2015 If someone breaks into my house, will the police still arrest me if I break into theirs? If my teenagers slaps me, can I slap him back? I understand the thinking - they have already pretty much made the marriage vow non-existent by sleeping with another person. In that case, what we really mean when we say don't sleep with someone who is married is don't sleep with someone who hasn't cheated yet. Because except for in the sense of hurt....if my spouse cheats on me, I'm still married to them unless there's a divorce. So while it is understandable, what we are, in fact, doing is changing the definition of adultery.
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