babbling about love & in love.

[minimariah]

why is it so hard for people to ADMIT that they don't love their partner...? while having an affair, in reconciliation, while dumping... in all situation where it's pretty obvious that the love just isn't there.

 

the entire "love but not in love" came out of... what? fear...? if you admit to NOT loving your partner - that means you actually have to do something about it and folks don't want to be alone OR divorced for that matter... is it that...?

 

while breaking up - i see a lot of folks not being able to straight up tell... hey, i don't love you anymore. they usually give a huge speech about loving their partner like a person, friend, caring for them, liking them but "not loving them the way they deserve to be loved".

 

is it so hard to admit that you're living or lived with someone you didn't love?

 

one "sidenote" - in specific affairs... where APs know each other for years... were friends and then became lovers... does that usually mean that they always had the "hots" for each other but it took the time for it to actually develop into something more because of marriages being the obstacle...? and if it IS like that... what does that mean for the relationship between the APs and the spouse - does it mean that the love was never there?

 

so i guess it's an extra question for all of you who had an affair with a friend of many years -- did you fall in love only when the A took off or did you feel something from the very beginning but it took you time to act on it?

 

just babbling on this saturday afternoon, lol. thank you guys.

[Clarence_Boddicker]

Dunno, maybe it's a way to keep someone in contact until they don't need them anymore?

[minimariah]

Dunno, maybe it's a way to keep someone in contact until they don't need them anymore?

 

i don't think that's it - especially when folks leave.

 

and not even for someone else, like people leave without any kind of plan to ever get back to their partner & they'll STILL tell the same old "but i love you though" story.

[Giggle]

Because they honestly do still care. It's not like all feeling disappears. Especially when you've been with them a long time. I still feel for my ex and he left me 8 years ago. I remarried. I haven't seen him for 4 years. He's an ass and I hope I never hear from him again and would never take him back. But I still feel for him. I care about my recent ex even though I kicked his dumb ass out. I don't want him back. Ick. But I care.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Giggle

[minimariah]

Because they honestly do still care. It's not like all feeling disappears. Especially when you've been with them a long time. I still feel for my ex and he left me 8 years ago. I remarried. I haven't seen him for 4 years. He's an ass and I hope I never hear from him again and would never take him back. But I still feel for him. I care about my recent ex even though I kicked his dumb ass out. I don't want him back. Ick. But I care.

 

but care isn't love.

 

"i don't love you" does not mean "i don't give a sh*t about you" - it means that you don't love that person.

 

when you're romantically involved with someone - you KNOW what kind of love you should be feeling. when you don't...? you don't love them.

 

why do people go to the end of the world and back just to avoid admitting that simple fact and putting in those words?

[jen1447]

Pet peeve of mine, and I think the answer is strangely simple and at the same time complex.

 

Simple - it's a rationalization employed to make it easier to do whatever they're doing - dumping someone or justifying the end of a marriage, etc. The thing is, it's making it easier for them under the guise of kindness or whatever, but it's not making it easier for the dumpee. It's not good for the dumpee to get a BS reason for the end of something very important in their life.

 

Complex (or why is the above so) - the reason dumpers are able to use these rationalizations is specifically because the dumpee has become devalued in their eyes. They're deserving of or at least capable of being treated with less regard and respect bc the dumper's no longer invested in them and the dumpee is essentially excess baggage at that point. They have little value, and things of little value can be treated marginally. Unfortunately this perception of lack of value often colors other irrational conclusions about them, such as that they're dumb or shallow or simple, which furthers the justification for employing the rationalization in the first place. ("I need to tell Johnny a BS story because he's too stupid to understand reality and he's too much of a pussy to handle the truth.")

 

That assessment's usually horribly wrong tho. No one 'gets dumb.' So you end up with the dumpee, just as smart as they were on day 1, being dumped by the dumper, who now views them as so simple that they won't catch on to the silly reasons offered. So now you compound the dumpee's suffering at being dumped with the knowledge that their former love holds them in such low regard that they don't mind lying to them and don't believe they're capable of handling the truth anyway. Then the dumper goes on their merry way thinking they did the dumpee a favor while the dumpee's left to pick up the pieces, knowing the dumper sees them as little more than pathetic. Not good for the dumpee's self esteem, but it's great for the dumper's peace of mind, and hey, that's all that matters since the dumper holds all the cards.

[Southern Sun]

My affair was with someone I had known for over a decade. I did not have feelings for him in "that way" before the affair started. He was a long-time mentor, someone I respected and looked up to, so it very much snuck up on me. Of course, there was an evolution, but it was over a period of maybe a couple of months (or even less), certainly not years.

 

I'm not sure what changed. Age, circumstance, proximity, life stage for both. I think all of the above.

 

As far as your other question...I think it's really more an issue that people who are leaving their spouses after an affair are suddenly defining love in a new way. Before their affair, things are normal, the way they probably should be, really. Marriages aren't "intense." They are generally pretty low-key, with some ups and downs. But you are living your lives together, it is settled, and if you are good together, you should be content. Affairs are disruptive, they can be emotional, and they CAN make you suddenly think, oh, THAT is actually what love is supposed to feel like. Not that consistent, calm, settled feeling I had in my marriage. So suddenly people are fumbling around, not sure what to say about loving their spouse. Because deep down there is still love there. They just got confused because something else came in and made them wonder what the definition of love is. It skews your perception. I think it's unfortunately wrong. I don't think the drama and high emotions and sexual intensity or WHATEVER of an affair is the definition of love. But it can wack you out and confuse you and make you unsure of what love is in the first place.

[elaine567]

why is it so hard for people to ADMIT that they don't love their partner...? while having an affair, in reconciliation, while dumping... in all situation where it's pretty obvious that the love just isn't there.

 

Everyone likes to be loved.

Love can have different meanings too. "I love you" can be a catch all phrase we use regarding people and animals we care about, it is not just confined to romantic attachments.

In a break up/affair/reconcile situation where we may not be "in love", but we want to soften the blow, then we tend to use "I still love you", as otherwise it may seem we place that person below our cat, below our best friend from college we haven't seen for three years or below that old aunt in Delaware...

 

We, even as dumpees, need to hear the Love word.

"I have just spent 5 years of my life pandering to your every whim and you don't even love me as much as your dog????"

We want to hear it, as it makes us seem relevant, makes us feel of some importance, even if they are just turfing us out and they are not "in love" with us any more.

[Giggle]

Right. Just because it's no longer a romantic love doesn't mean love isn't there. I normally don't hesitate at all to say that I love my ex. But even when I was in love with him, it was nothing like what I currently have for my bf.

 

Would it be better to you if they said I don't love you like that anymore? But I still care very much? It's not the love that "should" be in a marriage.

[minimariah]

Right. Just because it's no longer a romantic love doesn't mean love isn't there. I normally don't hesitate at all to say that I love my ex. But even when I was in love with him, it was nothing like what I currently have for my bf.

 

but that kind of love simply isn't important or relevant in a romantic relationship. if you're dumping someone and leaving them and telling them "you love them" - what do they have from that love...?

 

in a romantic relationship -- there is only one love, a romantic one. if there is no romantic love, then there is no romantic relationship. so why this need to save face with "i will always love you, i got love for you" speech when clearly it's NOT love...? care and wishing someone well and considering them a friend or keeping them in lovely memory is not love. so why do people keep confusing it...?

 

when we talk about romantic relationships - there is only one love there and we all know which one. it's either there... or it isn't.

 

Would it be better to you if they said I don't love you like that anymore? But I still care very much? It's not the love that "should" be in a marriage.

 

well... that's kind of the point of this thread.

 

why is it hard to straight up say -- i don't love you anymore...? when being dumped, folks really DON'T want to hear the "ohhhhh, i love youuuuu but not in love with you, i'm dumping you but i love you and there is love" -- i'd rather hear one simple "i don't love you anymore" and leave it at that.

 

but this need to save face and ease down the guilt is bigger, i guess. plus, i genuinely think people do not know what LOVE is or at least should be. if they did, they wouldn't use it in the "i love my spouse but not in love with them" context.

[minimariah]

Love can have different meanings too.

 

not in a romantic relationship - then, it has only one meaning.

 

and i don't think "i still love you" softens the blow at all -- it actually makes it harder for the one being dumped because it leaves the hope alive.

[elaine567]

Yes but that great romantic love you are talking about is an obsession and is not always firing on all cylinders throughout many perfectly happy relationships, it can come and go.

 

I think most get that if they are being dumped, they are no longer flavour of the month, so I think most are aware that "I still love you" from a dumper, is not an indication of undying love, if it was, they wouldn't be dumping you in the first place. It is merely saying you mean a lot to me, I care for you, I don't like to see you hurt, BUT...

[PrettyEmily77]

Whatever it is, it's not well thought out, or at least not very well worded because you can't sustain being in love forever; the vagaries of life often won't allow it. Love is what is left after the most exciting times are over (varies depending on individuals) and it's very often the best bit, when all is going well. Telling someone who is still in love with you that you're not and downgrading it to love but not in at way sucks IMO, unless you're made of stone. Never said or heard it myself (too much drama in all my previous Rs) but I don't think I'd like it much. Could work if both are on the same page at the time I guess or when feelings weren't so strong in the first place and it becomes a friendship, I guess...

[minimariah]

Yes but that great romantic love you are talking about is an obsession...

 

i don't think so.

 

i talk about ROMANTIC relationship. we all know what it's like to love a man (or a woman) romantically. i'm not talking about the dizzy, butterflies feeling but LOVE. and care, caring for someone as friends and wishing them best isn't love.

 

wanting to be with that person, connection with that person on emotional, sexual & intellectual level IS the love i'm talking about. and i do believe that love can last. i'm talking about real and mature love between two grownups.

 

It is merely saying you mean a lot to me, I care for you, I don't like to see you hurt, BUT...

 

BUT i don't really love you and i'm saying it just to safe face and ease my guilt a bit so you wouldn't think i'm a total a**hole.

 

it gives a lot of false hope & the person being dumped is even more huet later when they realize that the dumper isn't coming back. a lot of it think it's a "gigs phase" when that phrase is being said (i love you but not in love with you) & think it prevents people from really moving on for a longer period of time.

[elaine567]

BUT i don't really love you and i'm saying it just to safe face and ease my guilt a bit so you wouldn't think i'm a total a**hole.

 

It gives a lot of false hope & the person being dumped is even more huet later when they realize that the dumper isn't coming back. a lot of it think it's a "gigs phase" when that phrase is being said (i love you but not in love with you) & think it prevents people from really moving on for a longer period of time.

 

I think in general there appears to be a lot of false hope when people split and I do not think it all has to do with the "I still love you but I am not in love with you" phrase.

I think many dumpees believe it is a temporary split and that give it time, the dumper will be back and many cannot believe it is possible that their relationship is gone. Their ego has taken a massive hit and many cannot cope with that.

So OK, you tell them I DO NOT LOVE YOU but they are still heartbroken and now they worry that he/she never loved me...

How can that love they told me about, be gone completely? He doesn't love me at all, how can that be?

Am I unloveable? I probably am...

[autumnnight]

but that kind of love simply isn't important or relevant in a romantic relationship. if you're dumping someone and leaving them and telling them "you love them" - what do they have from that love...?

 

in a romantic relationship -- there is only one love, a romantic one. if there is no romantic love, then there is no romantic relationship. so why this need to save face with "i will always love you, i got love for you" speech when clearly it's NOT love...? care and wishing someone well and considering them a friend or keeping them in lovely memory is not love. so why do people keep confusing it...?

 

when we talk about romantic relationships - there is only one love there and we all know which one. it's either there... or it isn't.

 

 

 

well... that's kind of the point of this thread.

 

why is it hard to straight up say -- i don't love you anymore...? when being dumped, folks really DON'T want to hear the "ohhhhh, i love youuuuu but not in love with you, i'm dumping you but i love you and there is love" -- i'd rather hear one simple "i don't love you anymore" and leave it at that.

 

but this need to save face and ease down the guilt is bigger, i guess. plus, i genuinely think people do not know what LOVE is or at least should be. if they did, they wouldn't use it in the "i love my spouse but not in love with them" context.

 

Funny.....when it was obvious my ex didn't have romantic love for me, I was told romantic love fades, wasn't important, and I needed to grow up and be content.

[minimariah]

Funny.....when it was obvious my ex didn't have romantic love for me, I was told romantic love fades, wasn't important, and I needed to grow up and be content.

 

^^

 

yup, i was told the same thing.

 

"some other things are important in marriage, Mariah."

 

mhm.

 

i got called selfish and arrogant and selfcentered because i decided to divorce a man who clearly didn't love me anymore. apparently, that reason just isn't good enough. weird.

[Southern Sun]

I am truly curious - what do the members feel about expectations of romantic love in a marriage? After 10, 15, 20 years? I mean, when I see minimariah talking about emotional/intellectual/sexual connection...it kind of makes me think I'm missing something Not that H and I don't have a great foundation. But we are recovering from my affair. It was a little staid before that. We are good "partners." But that spark? Is it too much to expect?

[Got it]

For myself, that point where I knew I needed to say it was such a cliff. To utter the words that will close the chapter, break his heart, to completely change everything. Sorry but that was hard! Having loved in, in different fashions, since I was 17, to admit to him it was over, was so hard. Because no matter how much I felt like I was suffocating I struggled with the pain that it was going to levy on him.

 

So yeah, many people struggle with it. It isn't so easy to do even when you recognize "you have lost that loving feeling" because you still love and care for them. You don't hate them.

 

And for myself, up to that point I didn't know what I felt wasn't enough to base a marriage on. I was taught/told to take an analytical approach to love and marriage.

 

So maybe we don't all, really know, that love you are speaking of when we are in a relationship. Maybe we find out later than others. Sure, I knew romance novels but never knew that level of passion existed until now. Just thought it was the imagination of horny women.

[minimariah]

I am truly curious - what do the members feel about expectations of romantic love in a marriage? After 10, 15, 20 years? I mean, when I see minimariah talking about emotional/intellectual/sexual connection...it kind of makes me think I'm missing something Not that H and I don't have a great foundation. But we are recovering from my affair. It was a little staid before that. We are good "partners." But that spark? Is it too much to expect?

 

for me - it's a foundation.

 

we should probably define "the spark" -- to me, it isn't that dizzy and butterflies feeling you first get... it's a deeper and mature type of love. but IN love. not love as a friend, dear person... love. as in you are romantically and intelectually and sexually attracted to that person. of course you'll have the ups AND downs... as in, you'll fight and get annoyed by your spouse... but i think it's important that romantic love never vanishes. when it does -- it usually creates space for others to creep in, hence the EAs.

 

will it last...? who knows. i don't think about future, i think about today. i invest in today and take it one day at a time. after all, now is all we have. who knows if we'll even exist tomorrow, you know? i wake up every day and i invest into my partner every day and take our relationship one day at a time... it's like meeting him for the first time every day, if you know what i mean. i'm interested in him. maybe i'll stop being interested in him one day... who knows? i just enjoy the ride while it lasts and hope it'll last for a loooong time & we'll see with what will life hit me.

[Got it]

I am truly curious - what do the members feel about expectations of romantic love in a marriage? After 10, 15, 20 years? I mean, when I see minimariah talking about emotional/intellectual/sexual connection...it kind of makes me think I'm missing something Not that H and I don't have a great foundation. But we are recovering from my affair. It was a little staid before that. We are good "partners." But that spark? Is it too much to expect?

 

I know I have it now still into almost 10 years with my husband. I also know I didn't have it with my first husband. Actually we had it at 17/18 but lost it and didn't realize what that meant.

 

Knowing what I know now, I know how fragile and precious what we have is and how hard I will fight to keep it.

 

Sorry I don't know how you get it back.

[minimariah]

I was taught/told to take an analytical approach to love and marriage.

 

So maybe we don't all, really know, that love you are speaking of when we are in a relationship. Maybe we find out later than others. Sure, I knew romance novels but never knew that level of passion existed until now. Just thought it was the imagination of horny women.

 

yes! i think it's like this for a lot of people, both men and women.

 

sometimes, you really don't know that you're even missing something until that something finds you.

[Got it]

yes! i think it's like this for a lot of people, both men and women.

 

sometimes, you really don't know that you're even missing something until that something finds you.

 

Or you lose it but have no way to figure out how you get it back. It is so precious, so nebulous, so fragile and it can just "poof* before your eyes and be gone.

 

That is my biggest fear now. I have no childhood examples to learn from, I have no direction on how one keeps and nurtures what they have, and it is so breath taking that the idea of losing it is heart breaking. So it stays front and foremost for me and keeps me focused when life throws little and not so little obstacles.

 

Not being passionately in love with this wonderful man, to not have my heart break a little bit every time I see him, to not get butterflies when he calls and says hello . . . . life will have lost its color.

[ManyDissapoint]

Pet peeve of mine, and I think the answer is strangely simple and at the same time complex.

 

Simple - it's a rationalization employed to make it easier to do whatever they're doing - dumping someone or justifying the end of a marriage, etc. The thing is, it's making it easier for them under the guise of kindness or whatever, but it's not making it easier for the dumpee. It's not good for the dumpee to get a BS reason for the end of something very important in their life.

 

Complex (or why is the above so) - the reason dumpers are able to use these rationalizations is specifically because the dumpee has become devalued in their eyes. They're deserving of or at least capable of being treated with less regard and respect bc the dumper's no longer invested in them and the dumpee is essentially excess baggage at that point. They have little value, and things of little value can be treated marginally. Unfortunately this perception of lack of value often colors other irrational conclusions about them, such as that they're dumb or shallow or simple, which furthers the justification for employing the rationalization in the first place. ("I need to tell Johnny a BS story because he's too stupid to understand reality and he's too much of a pussy to handle the truth.")

 

That assessment's usually horribly wrong tho. No one 'gets dumb.' So you end up with the dumpee, just as smart as they were on day 1, being dumped by the dumper, who now views them as so simple that they won't catch on to the silly reasons offered. So now you compound the dumpee's suffering at being dumped with the knowledge that their former love holds them in such low regard that they don't mind lying to them and don't believe they're capable of handling the truth anyway. Then the dumper goes on their merry way thinking they did the dumpee a favor while the dumpee's left to pick up the pieces, knowing the dumper sees them as little more than pathetic. Not good for the dumpee's self esteem, but it's great for the dumper's peace of mind, and hey, that's all that matters since the dumper holds all the cards.

 

This makes the most sense to me so far. My ex was extremely insistent that she was leaving a possibility open for us to get back together and that she still loved me even for months after the breakup. She just tried to convince me that she had been pining and mourning over the relationship for 5 months, staring at my facebook picture in order to help her feel better (that's when I blocked her).

 

She also tried to convince me that she was expecting and secretly wanted a grand romantic gesture (she gave zero indication of this and told me to **** off in so many different ways).

 

It's honestly very obnoxious that she can't just admit that she fell out of love with me, and it was over forever, full stop. God that would have been so much easier for me.

[Southern Sun]

for me - it's a foundation.

 

we should probably define "the spark" -- to me, it isn't that dizzy and butterflies feeling you first get... it's a deeper and mature type of love. but IN love. not love as a friend, dear person... love. as in you are romantically and intelectually and sexually attracted to that person. of course you'll have the ups AND downs... as in, you'll fight and get annoyed by your spouse... but i think it's important that romantic love never vanishes. when it does -- it usually creates space for others to creep in, hence the EAs.

 

will it last...? who knows. i don't think about future, i think about today. i invest in today and take it one day at a time. after all, now is all we have. who knows if we'll even exist tomorrow, you know? i wake up every day and i invest into my partner every day and take our relationship one day at a time... it's like meeting him for the first time every day, if you know what i mean. i'm interested in him. maybe i'll stop being interested in him one day... who knows? i just enjoy the ride while it lasts and hope it'll last for a loooong time & we'll see with what will life hit me.

 

Yes...I don't expect butterflies. But admittedly, "romantic" is not the first word that comes to mind when I think of our relationship. We have been together for a long time, 19 years. It's changed a lot.