Observations about Women

[SycamoreCircle]

When I was younger, I had the false impression that women who were "difficult" or "tainted" were that way because men had hurt them or done them wrong. Part of it was my upbringing and the influence of media including books, films and music. And even at 39, it's a hard thing to get past. Women are the fairer sex. Let's make that even more offensive. Women are weaker.

 

But the fact of the matter is this just isn't true. Women can be outright fncked up a--holes without any maligning from a man. Maybe it goes back to parenting, which in turn goes back to a man. That's a can of worms I won't open at present.

 

The point of this thread though is not to dwell on this point, but instead ponder how as a man we successfully reconcile that what is so genteel, so prettified, so mannered and nurturing can dually be a heartless, conniving, manipulative destroyer.

 

Perhaps one of the reasons I'm putting this in such harsh, blanket terms is because my mother, whom I've spoken of numerous times on this forum, is the epitome of goodness. In many ways, having her as my woman exemplar did not prepare me for the realities of life.

[SammySammy]

Interesting.

 

I was also taught that girls were "sugar and spice and all that's nice" when I was growing up. My mother taught me that fairytale. My father didn't correct it.

 

Life has a way readjusting your perspective. I found that many weren't sugar and spice and quite often they were not so nice.

 

The truth is many girls grow up in the same households that produce messed up boys. Have experiences that are not so pleasant just like boys. Some may just like being mean. Just like some boys.

 

The problem is with the fairytale, not with the girls. So many men put women on these ridiculous pedestals and then are disappointed when they don't match the fantasy. When they are the evil step-sister rather than Cinderella.

 

I think men and women need to be taught how to deal with each other. What to expect. What to do to give ourselves the greatest chance of success. What to do when things don't go well. We see so many guys come to this site and fall apart because they don't know what to do when they are no longer Snow White's Prince Charming. Then turn bitter and grumpy. Hating all women because they weren't what he thought they were.

 

We need to be realistic and treat each other as human first.

[mrldii]

Interesting observation and rationale, OP.

 

I never thought to compare any shortcomings the with whom I've had a romantic relationship with may have had, by comparing them to my father and the relationship I had with him.

 

It's definitely a different way to look at it...in an attempt to make sense of it all.

[lollipopspot]

It really surprises me when I read something like that. It's definitely a social construction. Women are still HUMAN. Humans by nature have motivations that are sometimes negative, no matter how they were raised. Not one single person is all good. What you write even about your mother is a fantasy - she certainly had negative parts to her nature - just by virtue of being human - even if she didn't often express them.

[SycamoreCircle]

I'm not speaking merely of negative traits, I'm speaking of bottomless maliciousness, bottomless destruction.

 

I view these as typically masculine characteristics. Living in NYC, I'm surrounded by women who seek power, recognition, and money. I would argue there's even something masculine about the hefty price tag of their shoes and handbags.

[carhill]

Yeah, I had a lousy role model for a mother. My exW pretty much despised her, especially her annoying habit of bringing gifts and being interested in people. Heh...

 

Truth be told though, I'd probably had been better prepared for the world with a splash of alcoholism and domestic violence and maybe some child abuse thrown in, along with some siblings to beat up on. I think that kind of stuff teaches survival skills. All I got was a canteen and a compass and had to figure my way out of the woods. Lousy teaching for surviving in the real world.

 

However, and this is one place where I think my father failed horribly at an otherwise exemplary job of child-rearing, I think he should have sat me down at an appropriate age and told me the good bad and ugly of his first wife leaving him during his service in WW2, taking up with another man and taking his daughters, whom he had left as toddlers to do what millions of other men did during WW2. He came home to a divorcee decree and a child support order. I only learned of most of it after he died, reading his papers, including his letters to his daughters. That alone would've taught me a lot about women.

 

Oh, well. Such is life. No sons to enlighten so enjoy the rest and move on to the nether.

[WomenWubber]

The point of this thread though is not to dwell on this point, but instead ponder how as a man we successfully reconcile that what is so genteel, so prettified, so mannered and nurturing can dually be a heartless, conniving, manipulative destroyer.

 

I think the only thing to do is to re-mold that image of women into something our logical mind can accept.

 

Easier said than done, I know. Especially for those whose image of women is tightly connected to their ego.

[lollipopspot]

That alone would've taught me a lot about women.

 

That wouldn't have taught you a lot about WOMEN, but maybe allowed you to accept that women are mere HUMANS. Human nature being what it is, every person on the planet has destructive tendencies. Some people just allow them to be acted out more, others suppress them more.

 

It surprises me how many people are snowed by the construction of gender.

 

Now, it may be that due to the relative concentration of testosterone, combined with relative lack of social power, and social stereotypes, women in general act out fewer destructive tendencies than men (and that's the case, if you look at violent crime), but the most important thing is that women are still human, with all that entails. Humans are destructive.

[Ruby Slippers]

On the other hand, my dad was and still is totally inadequate as a father. It's been hard for me to believe that there are good men out there I can trust.

 

I think it's far better to grow up in an environment with loving people who give you a feeling of security and stability. My boyfriend comes from a strong, stable, loving home, and his temperament is just so grounded and solid. He doesn't have a fraction of the anxieties and fears that I do. I've come a long way in resolving them, but I think growing up in an environment where you feel unloved, unsupported, and unsafe ingrains within you a certain fight or flight sense that you have to work hard to undo.

 

I will certainly do everything in my power to make sure my children grow up in a stable, loving, supportive environment, so their foundational sense is one of safety and security.

 

As for women being good or bad, I think most people are fundamentally decent - but very susceptible to the sway of mass social engineering, which very effectively shapes people into the compliant, ignorant, unempowered consumers those who have real financial power and control want us to be.

 

In a world of wolves, sheepdogs, and sheep, most are sheep and will never evolve past that. More and more, I just feel sorry for those people working stressful, meaningless jobs to acquire meaningless things.

[SammySammy]

On the other hand, my dad was and still is totally inadequate as a father. It's been hard for me to believe that there are good men out there I can trust.

 

I think it's far better to grow up in an environment with loving people who give you a feeling of security and stability. My boyfriend comes from a strong, stable, loving home, and his temperament is just so grounded and solid. He doesn't have a fraction of the anxieties and fears that I do. I've come a long way in resolving them, but I think growing up in an environment where you feel unloved, unsupported, and unsafe ingrains within you a certain fight or flight sense that you have to work hard to undo.

 

I will certainly do everything in my power to make sure my children grow up in a stable, loving, supportive environment, so their foundational sense is one of safety and security.

 

As for women being good or bad, I think most people are fundamentally decent - but very susceptible to the sway of mass social engineering, which very effectively shapes people into the compliant, ignorant, unempowered consumers those who have real financial power and control want us to be.

 

In a world of wolves, sheepdogs, and sheep, most are sheep and will never evolve past that. More and more, I just feel sorry for those people working stressful, meaningless jobs to acquire meaningless things.

 

Good stuff.

[carhill]

Those kind of balanced lessons are important to a young person who is forming emotional memories about key aspects of social interaction. Without balance, it would be the gauntlet of abuse from peers that would forge the perspective I enjoy today, and I still have to actively quell the initial impressions which those early emotional memories naturally imbue any interactions with. The early messages were that women were loving, kind, trustworthy and loyal. Had the talk occurred, those messages would have been balanced with the negatives.

 

It surprises me how many people are snowed by the construction of gender.

 

Exactly my point. I was snowed, up until maybe age 17-18. By then, the elemental emotional setpoints were formed. I really needed interaction with more destructive women and, sadly, missed out on that.

[No Limit]

Meh, I never received much parenting to speak of (and if I had listened to the occasional lines from my mom I'd be a man-hating feminist today ). But thanks to Google I can get most information I need by myself.

[preraph]

When I was younger, I had the false impression that women who were "difficult" or "tainted" were that way because men had hurt them or done them wrong. Part of it was my upbringing and the influence of media including books, films and music. And even at 39, it's a hard thing to get past. Women are the fairer sex. Let's make that even more offensive. Women are weaker.

 

But the fact of the matter is this just isn't true. Women can be outright fncked up a--holes without any maligning from a man. Maybe it goes back to parenting, which in turn goes back to a man. That's a can of worms I won't open at present.

 

The point of this thread though is not to dwell on this point, but instead ponder how as a man we successfully reconcile that what is so genteel, so prettified, so mannered and nurturing can dually be a heartless, conniving, manipulative destroyer.

 

Perhaps one of the reasons I'm putting this in such harsh, blanket terms is because my mother, whom I've spoken of numerous times on this forum, is the epitome of goodness. In many ways, having her as my woman exemplar did not prepare me for the realities of life.

 

She's the epitome of goodness to YOU. To others, she's just a person, because they're not the recipient of her motherly love. Women have all the same emotions as men. To expect women to be all sweetness and light in the face of daily real life is unreasonable.

[carhill]

Heh, yeah, I remember all that sweetness while my backside was getting warmed up in the produce room at the supermarket

 

However, you bring up a good point. My impressions of my role models came from how they treated others as well as myself. To me, that's part of parenting, to set an example. If one is two-faced, then that is the example set. Compounding this, there was a community of parents which formed up very little diversity in that regard. I didn't see my first iterations of domestic violence until in my late teens, at a friend's house. Shocking. My reaction? Obvious. Protect the mother from the father's attacks. His son did the same thing. All the programming about women left no other avenue to consider. They were vulnerable and needed protecting. They were good. Who knows what went on between that couple? She might have been a total biotch. My programming was she was a damsel in distress. That's how it went, as an observation.

[Friendly3000guy]

Women are as diverse in personality as men. Some women are caring and sweet, while others are self-absorbed. Some women will bend over backwards and do anything for a man who would do the same for them, others will take and have no interest in giving back. Some women are patient, others want what whey want when they want it. Etc. Etc. It just depends on their personalities as individuals.

[SycamoreCircle]

She's the epitome of goodness to YOU. To others, she's just a person, because they're not the recipient of her motherly love. Women have all the same emotions as men.

No, you're wrong. I understand the point you're trying to make and it should apply, but it doesn't. My mother is exceptional, Christ-like. I know that seems like a biased statement, but her values, integrity and humility are profound. Her only real flaw is that she withholds her own wants and needs to the point that it shows up one's own selfishness.

[SycamoreCircle]

Women are as diverse in personality as men. Some women are caring and sweet, while others are self-absorbed. Some women will bend over backwards and do anything for a man who would do the same for them, others will take and have no interest in giving back. Some women are patient, others want what whey want when they want it. Etc. Etc. It just depends on their personalities as individuals.

I understand your point, but let me try to tighten my focus. I was raised to believe all humans are essentially good. You can agree or disagree with that. That's your prerogative. But within that I have always understood that women are caring, socially inclined, geared towards love and trustworthy.

 

And I still believe that women have a greater aptitude for those things, which makes reconciling their destruction, their hate and menace all the more difficult.

[LookAtThisPOst]

Well, a tell-tale sign, and by recent Facebook posts by single women posting openingly about their "Singleness" on either "Why people ask me that I'm still single?"

 

And try to explain how "It takes a lot to impress me" or "I haven't met a man that could handle an empowered, single woman."

 

This came from a post from a woman that's been living in this area, never married, but works among married people. (This is kind of a Bible thumper town of married folks).

 

Or they profess some kind of empowerment of their past, abusive relationships and of course comments from men on their FB that give them some kind of temporary warm fuzzy.

 

"Oh, you're wonderful honey, just focus on yourself!" or "You're a great catch!"

 

Mostly it's from the very same men that want to date her, but she'll never give more than a "like" to their comment when they try to fish or engage her in what she said about "being single."

 

There was one post where she commented on how when someone addresses such an issue on a comment she made a few days ago...she'll try to explain, but is like "Screw it and hit the like button! LOL!"

 

She'll whine about her situation, but never really engage a man in conversation about it. As if it weren't up for explanation.

 

 

 

When I was younger, I had the false impression that women who were "difficult" or "tainted" were that way because men had hurt them or done them wrong. Part of it was my upbringing and the influence of media including books, films and music. And even at 39, it's a hard thing to get past. Women are the fairer sex. Let's make that even more offensive. Women are weaker.

 

But the fact of the matter is this just isn't true. Women can be outright fncked up a--holes without any maligning from a man. Maybe it goes back to parenting, which in turn goes back to a man. That's a can of worms I won't open at present.

 

The point of this thread though is not to dwell on this point, but instead ponder how as a man we successfully reconcile that what is so genteel, so prettified, so mannered and nurturing can dually be a heartless, conniving, manipulative destroyer.

 

Perhaps one of the reasons I'm putting this in such harsh, blanket terms is because my mother, whom I've spoken of numerous times on this forum, is the epitome of goodness. In many ways, having her as my woman exemplar did not prepare me for the realities of life.

[Zagan]

Maybe you have an unrealistic expectation of what all women should be like because of your admiration and views of your mother

 

You also, in part, answered your own question when you talked about being surrounded by power striving women. In the last 20-30 years especially, but also long before that, women gained more rights and less suppression. Gone are the days when we should expect women to be home oriented cooks who stay quiet and respectful to all men as their 'superiors'. The fact is women aren't the weaker sex, they are human beings with human nature. And the more they are given the same rights and opportunities men are, the more apparent it is going to be that they can't be treated as separate entities just because they express some of the traits that some men do. Bad childhoods or past hurt is something both genders contend with, who says only one side can be acceptably damaged and scarred to the point of unreasonable attributes?

[SycamoreCircle]

Maybe you have an unrealistic expectation of what all women should be like because of your admiration and views of your mother

 

You also, in part, answered your own question when you talked about being surrounded by power striving women. In the last 20-30 years especially, but also long before that, women gained more rights and less suppression. Gone are the days when we should expect women to be home oriented cooks who stay quiet and respectful to all men as their 'superiors'. The fact is women aren't the weaker sex, they are human beings with human nature. And the more they are given the same rights and opportunities men are, the more apparent it is going to be that they can't be treated as separate entities just because they express some of the traits that some men do. Bad childhoods or past hurt is something both genders contend with, who says only one side can be acceptably damaged and scarred to the point of unreasonable attributes?

You make a strong but cliche argument.

 

I have no problem with women having rights or filling non-traditional roles in society. I have a problem with women seeking power the same way I have a problem with men seeking power.

 

Women will always be treated as separate entities from men. That is my point. To put it in unpardonably extreme terms, women will always be evacuated with children first; women will always be raped before they are murdered.

[Michelle ma Belle]

On the other hand, my dad was and still is totally inadequate as a father. It's been hard for me to believe that there are good men out there I can trust.

 

I think it's far better to grow up in an environment with loving people who give you a feeling of security and stability. My boyfriend comes from a strong, stable, loving home, and his temperament is just so grounded and solid. He doesn't have a fraction of the anxieties and fears that I do. I've come a long way in resolving them, but I think growing up in an environment where you feel unloved, unsupported, and unsafe ingrains within you a certain fight or flight sense that you have to work hard to undo.

 

I will certainly do everything in my power to make sure my children grow up in a stable, loving, supportive environment, so their foundational sense is one of safety and security.

 

As for women being good or bad, I think most people are fundamentally decent - but very susceptible to the sway of mass social engineering, which very effectively shapes people into the compliant, ignorant, unempowered consumers those who have real financial power and control want us to be.

 

In a world of wolves, sheepdogs, and sheep, most are sheep and will never evolve past that. More and more, I just feel sorry for those people working stressful, meaningless jobs to acquire meaningless things.

 

I think Ruby Slippers hit the nail on the head with this post. All of it.

 

It doesn't seem like rocket science to me. Regardless of how we were raised I think life experiences, good bad or indifferent, can and do change us whether we realize it or not and whether we want it to or not.

 

We have to also reconcile with the realization that the days of having June Cleaver as our role model are gone. Women are no longer raised to be seen and not heard, where raising a happy healthy family was their life's purpose, where kindness, tenderness and softness are seen as virtues rather than weakness. And if they are raised this way, it's not long before life pops that bubble they were raised in and teaches them the harsh realities of the world they live in today.

 

It takes a really strong woman to not become so jaded.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Michelle ma Belle

[LookAtThisPOst]

Me and some of my male compadres have noticed that some women are less "softer/feminine" these days. They seem to be abrasive and have an axe to grind.

 

They seem more demanding and have this 'it's my way or the highway" attitude.

[elaine567]

I have no problem with women having rights or filling non-traditional roles in society. I have a problem with women seeking power the same way I have a problem with men seeking power.

 

 

But the thread is NOT about people in general seeking power though, it is ostensibly about how your perception of women being "weaker", being "so genteel, so prettified, so mannered and nurturing" - being in essence Disney princesses, has been smashed to pieces, by your experiences with SOME women.

 

Well this isn't Disney, this is real life.

[SycamoreCircle]

But the thread is NOT about people in general seeking power though, it is ostensibly about how your perception of women being "weaker", being "so genteel, so prettified, so mannered and nurturing" - being in essence Disney princesses, has been smashed to pieces, by your experiences with SOME women.

 

Well this isn't Disney, this is real life.

Elaine, I think it's too easy to categorize my perception of women as fantastical. I'm a mature adult, with life experiences. As I stated earlier, I have believed and still do believe that women have a greater aptitude towards goodness than men.

[SallyU]

Conversely my father was the soul of gentleness. Kind to a fault, quiet, insightful though not perfect.

 

 

I read too many romance novels as a teen to boot.

 

 

Then came the real world.

 

 

Whether it's men or women human beings are complex and often conflicted.

 

 

Acceptance of this is key. Avoiding those who are truly toxic important.

 

 

While going through a divorce my counselor (she) gave the following bit of wisdom:

 

 

"Having a truly intimate relationship with another human being will be the hardest thing you ever do and the most rewarding."

 

 

The operative part of that statement being 'human being' because it is not gender based and to frame it as such will only back fire in the long run.

 

 

 

 

Best.

 

 

 

 

When I was younger, I had the false impression that women who were "difficult" or "tainted" were that way because men had hurt them or done them wrong. Part of it was my upbringing and the influence of media including books, films and music. And even at 39, it's a hard thing to get past. Women are the fairer sex. Let's make that even more offensive. Women are weaker.

 

But the fact of the matter is this just isn't true. Women can be outright fncked up a--holes without any maligning from a man. Maybe it goes back to parenting, which in turn goes back to a man. That's a can of worms I won't open at present.

 

The point of this thread though is not to dwell on this point, but instead ponder how as a man we successfully reconcile that what is so genteel, so prettified, so mannered and nurturing can dually be a heartless, conniving, manipulative destroyer.

 

Perhaps one of the reasons I'm putting this in such harsh, blanket terms is because my mother, whom I've spoken of numerous times on this forum, is the epitome of goodness. In many ways, having her as my woman exemplar did not prepare me for the realities of life.