norcaldivr Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Hey all, I came across this recently. It is a real gem about how "nice guys" seem to finish last in the game of love. http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml Mostly true I'd say.
WhereSpiritsRoam Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 I can't say I agree with everything in the article, but it does raise a lot of good points.
UCFKevin Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Ah, it's bulls***. It's just an excuse for guys who have to find something to blame for their single life. I'm a nice guy and I won't finish last. I know I won't. If you're finishing last, you're going after the wrong girls.
LucreziaBorgia Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 Here's something I said about that very thing in another thread: I don't know that its nice guys who finish last. Its basically any "man who defines himself solely through a woman, and draws his primary strength through her" that tends to finish last. This can be a nice guy OR a raging assh*le. The key is where he draws his strength from. If he has so little that it has to come from someone else either in the form of subservience or abuse, then he becomes someone who tends to drain strength from the relationship to fill his neediness rather than providing his own strength as a source of support. Women like men who are strong on their own and don't need them. By need I mean neediness in the way that toddler gets hysterical when you take away his security blanket. "Nice guys" can be needy in that they find they can't function without the relationship. The relationship feeds them, rather than them feeding the relationship. They do everything for the woman, not because they want to but because they are compelled to in some subconscious panic to assure that nothing happens to the relationship. Being nice to a woman is imperative. There is a way to be nice and not be a 'nice guy'. Be nice, not because you'll collapse and die and cease to function if she leaves you - but because you sincerely enjoy being nice to someone. The goal is to choose to be with her, and have enough inner strength so that you don't need to be with her. An emotionally strong man is not a jerk or an assh*le. He's a guy who treats a woman with respect, and is nice to her for no other reason than because he takes a joy in doing so. His motivation for being nice comes from sincerely wanting to be nice to her, and wanting to enhance the relationship and be a source of strength for his partner. An emotionally weak man is the 'nice guy' whose motivation for being nice comes from pure need. Jerks and 'bad boys' can be just as needy as 'nice guys'. They also feed off of the relationship. They can only feel powerful and strong when they are being emotionally or physically abusive to their women. They keep the women around to abuse and treat poorly because they absolutely need her - they need her in order to feel strong, because they are lacking completely of power otherwise. They can only feel powerful when they are making someone else feel weak. These guys are as emotionally weak as the doormat types, if not moreso. EMOTIONAL STRENGTH DOES NOT MEAN 'BEING COLD, MEAN OR ABUSIVE'. It means drawing your source of strength and power from yourself instead of draining it off of someone else. Emotional strength is the opposite of emotional neediness. The more emotional strength, confidence and power a man can draw from himself, without having to draw it from any outside source - the more likely it is that he is going to be able to keep himself in a relationship with a woman. If he can bring strength to a relationship instead of making it his only source of strength, then he is more likely to be successful with women. Women don't want to be needed - they want to be chosen. They want you to be with her not because you have to, but because you want to. As soon as you become an emotional drain instead of an emotional rock, you are history. My Mr. B is a very, very nice guy. One of the nicest guys you'll meet. He is kind, genuine, nurturing to our daughter, good to me, awesome in bed - but, he is not a "nice guy". He is emotionally strong, protective of his boundaries, and brings strength to our relationship instead of being a vampire to it. He refuses to be a doormat, while at the same time being a genuinely nice guy. "Nice guys" do tend to finish last, but that doesn't mean that nice guys have to. I find it funny that 'heartless bitch' was a 'nickname' I had a while back. Heh.
Marshbear Posted May 3, 2005 Posted May 3, 2005 I disagree with most of this article. Nice guys can and are assertive, confident and fun. This article takes a guy who is insecure, needy and obsessive and calls him a nice guy. It just tries to validate the premise that you don't want to be a nice guy. There is nothing wrong with a nice guy. There is something wrong with this article.
morrigan Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 I agree, Marshbear, about the article. They should have printed with it a list of dominatrixes that could be consulted. "Nice" does not go hand in hand with "insecurity". A person can be confident and independent without having an aggressive attitude, or feeling the need to dominate situations. There are girls out there who find nice guys very attractive. The word nice doesn't automatically define a person as a pushover, weakling, doormat, or boring. It gets used too much as a security blanket for bad relationships. A lousy man or woman will treat the majority of their partners in a lousy manner.
alphamale Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by morrigan "Nice" does not go hand in hand with "insecurity". A person can be confident and independent without having an aggressive attitude, or feeling the need to dominate situations. what u are talking about above, MORRIGAN, is a "normal guy". the textbook definition of a "nice guy" is a dude who is not assertive, boring, non-sexual, non-threatening and uninteresting. you are confusing the two here due to semantics. when a woman says a guy is a "nice guy", ususally it is the kiss of death. a "normal guy" is one who is both good and bad and has some masculine and feminine qualities.
UCFKevin Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 More kisses of death: "You're too good to me." "You're too sweet to me."
Merin Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by UCFKevin More kisses of death: "You're too good to me." "You're too sweet to me." AND "I don't deserve You" Can't that be taken either way? Like "OMG What the hell did I do to deserve You.. whatever it was... I take it all back!" OR "OMG I don't deserve you.. because I really want to hook up with someone else so I'm just saying that so I don't look so bad and hopefully you'll think I'm still a great Guy/Girl but go away anyway" Even worse than that... when you see people who try to convince the person who's just said that to them how they really are worthy
alphamale Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by Merin AND "I don't deserve You" OR "It's not YOU....it's me!"
Merin Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale OR "It's not YOU....it's me!" Which means.. It's not you.. because it's someone else
RecordProducer Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 I would NOT define the term "nice guy" as it is defined in that post. A nice guy is someone who is kind and decent. If you go deeper, it's someone who is honest and respectful, with a good heart. Being spineless and obsessed with a woman has nothing to do with being nice. It makes me sick that some people are trying to turn the word "nice" into "wrong" or "victim", because it's seeding the ground of relationships with poisonous thoughts that men should be insensitive and careless macho types. My BF is passionate, energetic, self-confident, successful, and he is a NICE guy also. Because he is honest and polite in every occasion, thoughtful and considerate, loving and affectionate. It doesn't subtract from his sex appeal; it adds to it. His smile is the sexiest thing about him. Replacing nice with arrogant is like saying that you can be either pretty or smart, but the two qualities exclude one another. The guy being described in the aforementioned post is insecure and emotionally dependent on his lover, spineless and boring as he has no self-esteem or opinions and desires of his own. A person like this can be nice, but it doesn't mean that all nice guys fit in this model, which the poster also admitted (the example with the whale). Obsession should be cured; being nice should NOT! You don't want to date the type of women who likes bad guys, do you? And, of course, when you're dumped, the best excuse is "I was too nice, that's why she ditched me!" Why not look at the truth in the eye and admit the real reasons?
UCFKevin Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 I desperately want to tell a girl one day, "It's not me. It's you. You're insane." Actually, I already have. Nevermind.
HotCaliGirl Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 That articles describes a stalker in the making...I've taken out restraining orders against two different guys and they were very obsessive, not "nice" like this articles is trying to describe the behavior as.
Merin Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by UCFKevin I desperately want to tell a girl one day, "It's not me. It's you. You're insane." Actually, I already have. Nevermind. Wow.. You've told someone that too?
morrigan Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 I would NOT define the term "nice guy" as it is defined in that post. A nice guy is someone who is kind and decent. If you go deeper, it's someone who is honest and respectful, with a good heart. Being spineless and obsessed with a woman has nothing to do with being nice. Great post, Recordproducer! That's what the article defines a "nice guy" as, and maybe that's what some people conjure up mentally when they talk about "nice guys", but it's not my definition either. There are some guys here on LS who happen to be nice people. It's like the "bad boy" stereotype, maybe some people buy into it that mindset, but it's full of hot air and wagonloads of bullsh*t. Anyone who expects someone else to be their shrine of worship, or continues to contact a person after being told they're not interested/leave them alone, is not being nice at all. Where's the book, "They're just not into you because you're obsessive and won't take no for an answer?" of course, when you're dumped, the best excuse is "I was too nice, that's why she ditched me!" Why not look at the truth in the eye and admit the real reasons?
BigB Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 I think the term "nice guy" get's way over used, and has a negative meaning now because so many guys have called themselves "nice guys" who are actually co-Dependant, stalkers in training. You've got several types of guys who all get lumped together as "nice guys" in a negative way. it's the "he's a nice guy, but" thing that girls often say and all the guys who say "I'm a nice guy, why didn't it work out?", that I think caused this. I'm gonna make a nice guy, scale (hey, I've been up all night, running on caffeen, and cigarettes ) 4) "he's a nice guy, but, he's a clingy, co-Dependant, stalker in training" - IMO not a nice guy, only THINKS he's a nice guy. (I think this is the type of guy they are talking about in that article) 3) "he's a nice guy, but, he's a doormat" - IMO, probably is a nice guy, but a little misguided, tries to hard, gives to much, and she's "probably not all that into him", etc. 2) "he's a nice guy, but, he's boring" - IMO just your average boring, UN-assertive, nice guy, not quite a doormat, but heading in that direction, no assertiveness, no self-confidence, doesn't bring enough to the relationship to keep it exciting." 1) he's a nice guys, AND, he's self-confident, successful, funny, blah,blah,insert desirable guy qualities here,yada,yada,yada." - IMO really is a nice, polite, good guy, treats women with respect, isn't a doormat, isn't so nice that he's selfless, but still isn't an "alphamale"(sorry dude ) or a "bad boy", doesn't play games, etc. Also I think a bad relationship can shove a guy down the scale, for example those controlling "predator" type's can rob us of our confidence shove a 2 into 3 territory, or a 3 into 4 territory, because he's afraid of loosing her. summary: All of us "nice guys" should strive to be the guy that makes girls say "he's a nice guy, AND" not "he's a nice guy, BUT" and the number 4's should go see a shrink! just my 2cents....
alphamale Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by BigB summary: All of us "nice guys" should strive to be the guy that makes girls say "he's a nice guy, AND" not "he's a nice guy, BUT" right BIGB...and also remember that some "bad boys" are actually "nice guys" that were burnt one too many times by females so they go into self-protection mode and start to act bad and treat women like shyt.
moimeme Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 the textbook definition of a "nice guy" is a dude who is not assertive, boring, non-sexual, non-threatening and uninteresting. No it's not, as RP, HotCali, and others have pointed out. It's just that a lot of twits, 'HeartlessBitches' included, are abusing the term 'nice guy' by applying it to people who are nothing resembling 'nice' but are, instead, seriously dysfunctional. Too bad people can't be shot for abusing vocabulary Call that version of 'nice guy' the 'pseudo-nice guy' and you'd be much closer to the truth.
BigB Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale right BIGB...and also remember that some "bad boys" are actually "nice guys" that were burnt one too many times by females so they go into self-protection mode and start to act bad and treat women like shyt. agreed. but some are just born a-holes.
ReluctantRomeo Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by BigB agreed. but some are just born a-holes. "Some are born a-holes, some achieve a-hole status, some have a-holes thrust upon them"?
BigB Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale right BIGB...and also remember that some "bad boys" are actually "nice guys" that were burnt one too many times by females so they go into self-protection mode and start to act bad and treat women like shyt. I think somewhere between 3 and 4 guys go two directions, they either become a number 4, OR they man up a little, (albeit slightly mis-guided) and become a jaded "bad boy" in protection mode.
alphamale Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by ReluctantRomeo "Some are born a-holes, some achieve a-hole status, some have a-holes thrust upon them"? agreed
whichwayisup Posted May 4, 2005 Posted May 4, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale right BIGB...and also remember that some "bad boys" are actually "nice guys" that were burnt one too many times by females so they go into self-protection mode and start to act bad and treat women like shyt. But these are the ones in the end who eventually go back into being 'nice guys' but they don't lose the 'bad boy' in them...They're just not as bad as before....More inbetween. Like it should be. Noone wants to BE nice or BE bad all the time...Has to be some sort of balance.
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