Am I wrong with this?

July 11, 2015

well gotta try somehow

July 12, 2015

You say of the thirty people you met, only one asked you about yourself?

I find this hard to believe. Even the most self obsessed people will ask you something at some stage, if you give them a chance

Are you bombarding them with questions so much that they don't get a chance to ask anything?

You say you don't understand how to have fun. This seems a bit sad. Is there not an inner child In you that knows how to have fun?

Maybe you need to go out on different kinds of dates that are more fun

To me the whole date seems like a business transaction.

My last date I met the girl in a bar. I gave her a hug and a kiss on the cheek.

I let her buy the second round of drinks and I made sure the conversation flowed both ways. We played uno (card game) and had a lot of fun.

She had a little tattoo on her arm which I touched.

She told me about her other recent dates and how they paid for everything and seemed so into her, but I was the one she decided to see again.

She said it was cause the others didn't make her laugh.

July 12, 2015

go hiking!!! great first date

July 12, 2015

go hiking!!! great first date

No, in South Africa no sane woman would go hiking on a first date. Just like the OP said they would be wise to just meet at the place.

A coffee date or meeting for a drink is just fine. However, you seem to be an intellectual snob. You appear to be making it about them but if you're honest, you'll also focus on the part where you don't think most women are good enough for you.

You're following the "steps" but there's no personality, no confidence, no fun.

I've dated men who would objectively be considered my " intellectual inferior" and I've dated men who were academically way beyond understanding. But neither party lauded their book smarts over the other.

I AM a firm believer in choosing a partner who can hold their own in a conversation with you but if we're laughing and talking and have some common viewpoints and interests, I think that's a good start.

Also again, you appear to be focusing on your date but you're actually focusing on me me me. I'M doing the right things. I'M going the extra mile. MY intellectual ability and complicated sense of humour. When I read that list, I realised I was reading it in kind of a stilted, robotic voice. That could be how you come off too.

I get it. You're not comfortable. I suffered from a severe, sometimes debilitating, lack of confidence. Until my job required that I speak publicly. I focused on MY inadequacies, my discomfort, my sweaty palms and I sucked at my job.

When I started realising that I was constantly worrying about what I was doing wrong, I realised I was short-changing the people I worked with. They weren't benefitting from all the things I had to offer because I couldn't get any of it out.

I had to actively stop thinking about my perceptions of THEIR perceptions of me. I'm still introverted and unsure of myself but they never know. My motto became "fake it till you make it".

It took a while but I've learned to kind of re-programme my thinking. Stop overthinking. Give them and yourself a chance to shine. You can continue to go on like this, but has it been working?

July 12, 2015

You say of the thirty people you met, only one asked you about yourself?
I find this hard to believe. Even the most self obsessed people will ask you something at some stage, if you give them a chance

Are you bombarding them with questions so much that they don't get a chance to ask anything?

You say you don't understand how to have fun. This seems a bit sad. Is there not an inner child In you that knows how to have fun?

Maybe you need to go out on different kinds of dates that are more fun

To me the whole date seems like a business transaction.

My last date I met the girl in a bar. I gave her a hug and a kiss on the cheek.
I let her buy the second round of drinks and I made sure the conversation flowed both ways. We played uno (card game) and had a lot of fun.
She had a little tattoo on her arm which I touched.
She told me about her other recent dates and how they paid for everything and seemed so into her, but I was the one she decided to see again.
She said it was cause the others didn't make her laugh.

This my friend is the answer. A date is supposed to be fun, and what you said is exactly what I said multiple times before. He's treating it like a business deal. He greets them with a hearty handshake and sits them down at a cafe and talks.. and apparently none of them get a chance to even ask him any questions. To me it sounds like he has his date perfectly memorized and performs it for them rather than letting it happen naturally.

One of my best dates, I picked her up at her place (which some people here scoff at apparently if you give the woman a ride), and I drove us about an hour and a half out of the city into a very nice scenic area. It was a beautiful fall day. We drove around the countryside looking at the farms and crops, the tractors and farm animals. We then made our way to a local place and had the best organic burgers ever, along with some freshly made microbrew.

I took her to the petting area of the place and she fed some animals (which she really enjoyed and we laughed quite a bit at our dorkiness). At this point I felt comfortable enough to make a move so I reached out and grabbed her hand on our way back to the car. She gladly held it and I could see her smiling. On our drive back she reached over and held my hand and played with it. She was into me. Before getting back home she said she would like to continue the date. I said ok let's grab another drink. It was nighttime now so I took her to a local bar by her place. We had a drink and some fun conversation. I then walked her home to her door, leaned in and planted one on her. She gladly reciprocated. And yes, it was of the French variety, not a simple peck on the lips.

tl;dr - I did something fun and spontaneous that a girl totally didn't expect and I got very far with it. You don't need to be this crazy with your dates, especially on a first date, but also don't expect to just rehearse the same coffee date over and over again and get somewhere new with it. You need to make a lady laugh. She needs to have a good time. A relationship is not a business transaction.

July 12, 2015

No, in South Africa no sane woman would go hiking on a first date. Just like the OP said they would be wise to just meet at the place.

A coffee date or meeting for a drink is just fine. However, you seem to be an intellectual snob. You appear to be making it about them but if you're honest, you'll also focus on the part where you don't think most women are good enough for you.

You're following the "steps" but there's no personality, no confidence, no fun.

I've dated men who would objectively be considered my " intellectual inferior" and I've dated men who were academically way beyond understanding. But neither party lauded their book smarts over the other.

I AM a firm believer in choosing a partner who can hold their own in a conversation with you but if we're laughing and talking and have some common viewpoints and interests, I think that's a good start.

Also again, you appear to be focusing on your date but you're actually focusing on me me me. I'M doing the right things. I'M going the extra mile. MY intellectual ability and complicated sense of humour. When I read that list, I realised I was reading it in kind of a stilted, robotic voice. That could be how you come off too.

I get it. You're not comfortable. I suffered from a severe, sometimes debilitating, lack of confidence. Until my job required that I speak publicly. I focused on MY inadequacies, my discomfort, my sweaty palms and I sucked at my job.

When I started realising that I was constantly worrying about what I was doing wrong, I realised I was short-changing the people I worked with. They weren't benefitting from all the things I had to offer because I couldn't get any of it out.

I had to actively stop thinking about my perceptions of THEIR perceptions of me. I'm still introverted and unsure of myself but they never know. My motto became "fake it till you make it".

It took a while but I've learned to kind of re-programme my thinking. Stop overthinking. Give them and yourself a chance to shine. You can continue to go on like this, but has it been working?

I think you are perhaps getting the wrong impression here. Usually its about finding a topic of conversation which is inevitably something they are interested in which is fine as I can talk on a variety of topics and in between this I ask them about themselves but it is very subtle, not like I am asking question after question.

Never barring once have any of them asked me anything about me, if we stop talking about something they are interested in usually the conversation just dies and the awkward silence arrives, this is where I am talking about an intellectual smart person, such a person can then turn the topic and the conversation becomes a two way one as apposed to a largely one way one because the person sitting opposite me has little substance, its easy for people to talk about who banged who, who got too drunk, who went to what club but when you start asking them about themselves, their interests 9/10 times I found there has been nothing, absolutely nothing.

You say I lack personality and I admit that hurts but maybe its true, maybe that's why 2 of the 3 I liked were/aren't interested in me, maybe I am too dry and boring, the 3rd one dropped me after I missed her subtle suggestions that I sleep with her.

With a smart, well, spoken, intelligent person I am extremely comfortable, such a person the conversation flows and its extremely easy to while away a few hours, simply because they can talk about something, they did ask questions about me, we did laugh at things and there was simply something to them.

As for me worrying about what they think, doesn't even feature, ultimately I go into the date hoping for the best, I do my best and if its someone who wows me then I hope I get a second date: I never had got one...ever.

July 12, 2015

You say of the thirty people you met, only one asked you about yourself?
I find this hard to believe. Even the most self obsessed people will ask you something at some stage, if you give them a chance

Are you bombarding them with questions so much that they don't get a chance to ask anything?

You say you don't understand how to have fun. This seems a bit sad. Is there not an inner child In you that knows how to have fun?

Maybe you need to go out on different kinds of dates that are more fun

To me the whole date seems like a business transaction.

My last date I met the girl in a bar. I gave her a hug and a kiss on the cheek.
I let her buy the second round of drinks and I made sure the conversation flowed both ways. We played uno (card game) and had a lot of fun.
She had a little tattoo on her arm which I touched.
She told me about her other recent dates and how they paid for everything and seemed so into her, but I was the one she decided to see again.
She said it was cause the others didn't make her laugh.

I don't do clubs are bars as a place to meet people, simply because you cant actually communicate in those environments and its impossible to determine who is single and who isn't.

As mentioned if I stopped speaking, 9/10 times they did too, there was ample chance to ask me things but they didn't, that I take a plain and total lack of interest. Why would I want to kiss/hug someone who clearly isn't interested in me.

I am happy to go on more adventurous type of dates, wine farms, perhaps go to a lion sanctuary but those to me are second dates not first dates, in my current mind if I had half a chance with the current person I like I'd do the lion park and maybe a mid range lunch somewhere, perhaps a wine tasting, chances of me getting what would in a sense be a second date are totally zero.

I am not incapable of having fun but I just need that first date to get some sort of connection.

There are parts of my life which some would find awesome, have been lucky to have some great experiences and would be nice to share those with someone. I did this once with the last "date" and it was really, really nice, she enjoyed the evening apparently, though not enough to see me again.

As far as possible I realised to try and match like with like and with the last one objectively it was like with like, there being quite a lot in common which is rare, good communication, also rare but ultimately there is some issue which I suspect is purely physical. That hurts.

Having said all of that I haven't had a date this year, cant find anyone.

July 12, 2015

I think you are perhaps getting the wrong impression here. Usually its about finding a topic of conversation which is inevitably something they are interested in which is fine as I can talk on a variety of topics and in between this I ask them about themselves but it is very subtle, not like I am asking question after question.

Never barring once have any of them asked me anything about me, if we stop talking about something they are interested in usually the conversation just dies and the awkward silence arrives, this is where I am talking about an intellectual smart person, such a person can then turn the topic and the conversation becomes a two way one as apposed to a largely one way one because the person sitting opposite me has little substance, its easy for people to talk about who banged who, who got too drunk, who went to what club but when you start asking them about themselves, their interests 9/10 times I found there has been nothing, absolutely nothing.

You say I lack personality and I admit that hurts but maybe its true, maybe that's why 2 of the 3 I liked were/aren't interested in me, maybe I am too dry and boring, the 3rd one dropped me after I missed her subtle suggestions that I sleep with her.

With a smart, well, spoken, intelligent person I am extremely comfortable, such a person the conversation flows and its extremely easy to while away a few hours, simply because they can talk about something, they did ask questions about me, we did laugh at things and there was simply something to them.

As for me worrying about what they think, doesn't even feature, ultimately I go into the date hoping for the best, I do my best and if its someone who wows me then I hope I get a second date: I never had got one...ever.

Nope, I said that wasn't showing through in your steps you followed. I don't know whether you have personality or not but you don't let it shine through here. That's exactly my point.

I agree with you about those "shallow" topics. If that's all they can talk about then they're not compatible with either you or me. I admit I love some silliness and I like men who can be silly with me. If they're shy, I can draw them out, which is maybe what you need.

But again for that you need to kind of "fake" the confidence.

A woman should be able to hold up her end of the conversation. I agree with you 100%. I get what you're saying about how the date goes. And that could just be that you're picking the wrong ones.

We all do that. That part is trial and error. I think when you find the connection with that one person, all that planning and prep goes out the window.

For that to happen, you need to cast a wider net.

Online dating isn't big in SA, as far as I remember. I have never dated there ( I left 10 years ago and just go home on vacation now). It's harder there, i give you that.

But if you're serious about it, you need to step out of your comfort zone. Take classes. I can't dance and have no rhythm, but I joined a salsa class. Take a language class. It's up to you to open up your circle but please don't go the distasteful route of strippers or escorts.

I don't know if you've considered therapy, but it's really useful. There are things about you that an outsider can make you realise.

Keep the bitterness and woe is me attitude in check.

I get bitter too. That's when I withdraw for a bit until I get myself in check.

July 12, 2015

Nope, I said that wasn't showing through in your steps you followed. I don't know whether you have personality or not but you don't let it shine through here. That's exactly my point.

I agree with you about those "shallow" topics. If that's all they can talk about then they're not compatible with either you or me. I admit I love some silliness and I like men who can be silly with me. If they're shy, I can draw them out, which is maybe what you need.

But again for that you need to kind of "fake" the confidence.

A woman should be able to hold up her end of the conversation. I agree with you 100%. I get what you're saying about how the date goes. And that could just be that you're picking the wrong ones.

We all do that. That part is trial and error. I think when you find the connection with that one person, all that planning and prep goes out the window.
For that to happen, you need to cast a wider net.
Online dating isn't big in SA, as far as I remember. I have never dated there ( I left 10 years ago and just go home on vacation now). It's harder there, i give you that.

But if you're serious about it, you need to step out of your comfort zone. Take classes. I can't dance and have no rhythm, but I joined a salsa class. Take a language class. It's up to you to open up your circle but please don't go the distasteful route of strippers or escorts.

I don't know if you've considered therapy, but it's really useful. There are things about you that an outsider can make you realise.

Keep the bitterness and woe is me attitude in check.
I get bitter too. That's when I withdraw for a bit until I get myself in check.

I have such a small pool to pick from because I realised anyone who clubs isn't going to be compatible with me and that rules out around 99% of the people here, anyone who has kids isn't going to be compatible with me, anyone over 34 isn't compatible with me either.

So I go and look for someone who is different from the rest, a step up in terms of knowledge, a step up in terms of maturity, a step up in terms of intellectual capability. The last one I met by chance at a supercar lunch, mutual friend set up a second date to an event, went superbly well, she isn't interested for whatever reason.

I sign up to yet another OLD site, the people have the same issues as all the other sites, tons of baggage, kids, ex husbands, incapable of a basic e mail conversation and there is just nothing about them.

Decide to let cupid friend play his game again and both of us go out to a bar with a group of people, one of which is single , just absolutely no interest in her at all, why, she can only talk about who did who, who drank too much, there was just nothing there of interest at all, only way I got around this was to deliberately bring myself down to that level but I just become bored and it shows unfortunately.

For me now that I have seen how good it can be, everything else is just a huge let down from an intellectual, conversational point of view and I am left looking around looking for the proverbial unicorn.

The huge irony here is I am resigned myself to not ever being kissed or getting any of the other physical things but I would simply be happy if I had someone I could phone and say "you fancy going for a lunch/dinner/wine tasting/movie, guys aren't supposed to look for friend zone but if I could find someone exceptional I would be only too happy to be her friend, again that in itself seems frankly impossible.

Right now I just hoped my dating technique wasn't too bad, seems its 50/50 on that one.

Am I bitter, not really, I saw miss exceptional on Friday again and it was much the same, that wow I don't get with anyone else, she doesn't like me I get that, she wont be friends with me, bit harder to swallow but I accept that. She does draw out the best in me though, I can actually just be complicated me and it just seems to work. The fact I could sit and talk to her exclusively for 3 hours, ignoring all the talk around me about supercars says something!

My problem really is very simply most of my life I have spent around older people, 10-15 years older than me, this has given me great opportunity to learn a few things but it also meant I never got into the club, bar type thing, added to which the people I spend time around are settled, none have ever had issues finding nice dates, best friend is married to a really lovely lady.

Escorts and strippers aren't my thing BUT I did consider the former for a while and I still do from time to time simply because the search I found so draining and demotivating.

I get that dates need a certain amount of impressing, that's fine with me, I can sell my attributes but I really don't know what impresses the average female, clearly its not the fact I am halfway through writing a novel or that I have had work published in various magazines or that I have driven abc supercars been to some fantastic wine farms, completed an entire degree by studying correspondence or the fact I have great general knowledge.

None of those things seem to count for anything to the average person.

July 12, 2015

I'm not sure if you mentioned it but how are you finding these girls to go out with in the first place? Dating websites? Meet them randomly? Through work? Friends? You talk about "selling her on your attributes " , making yourself smell good, and presentable like its a sales transaction and she's going to decide at the end of she's going to purchase or not. Having the date so methodically planned on prevents you from going off topic and having the conversation flow naturally.

Something that's always worked for me whether it's on dates or going up to girls in public - I ask the girl "ok so tell me a fun fact about yourself". This usually eliminates all the mundane small talk and is a fun way of getting them to open up a bit and actually think about something she can share with you that the typical acquaintance wouldn't know. If she says "I don't know" then that's when you should give her an example and tell her something about you. I.e "I was an extra on a movie/tv show once... Or "my brother set me on fire when I was 10 by shooting a firework towards me on 4th of July". Yea some things I've said can be/sound corny but that'll get her to laugh and the convo can go from there. Make something up of you feel like it to, nothing wrong with a little embellishment to spark the date up a bit.

And you say that none of your dates ask you anything about yourself. Why don't you ask them to? I've done that plenty of times. "Ok now it's your turn, ask me something you're curious about". That puts the ball in her hands and she can direct where the convo goes from there. You'd be surprised at some of the things I've been asked in which I was surprised that's what they wanted to know and intrigued me a bit.

Fun convo tips that've worked also is asking hypothetical flirty/fun questions. "ok so if you were stranded on a desert island but could bring 3 things with you, what would you bring?"

"It's your last meal... What would you order" ... I could go on and on about the ridiculous questions I've come up with and discussed. It may work for you it may not. I'm not really interested in having business type convos with my dates on the 1st date because I work all week and I don't need my date to feel like another job/task/work. The girls replies to these questions also let's me know if she's an uptight person who can't play along. OR if she's into it and makes it easy by being open to non traditional talking topics/points.

You also said that you hold off going in for a kiss, or holding hands, or touching because "it's not worth the risk". Sorry but what the heck is the risk? Not like you're going to be arrested for trying to hold her hand. The only risk is being embarrassed and if you ask any guy (even ones who have slept with 100's of women) they will tel you that they've been rejected, turned down more times than they can count. Who cares.. What's she gonna say "omg were on a date why would you try and kiss me/ hold my hand?!"... Um that's what you do on dates.

Also quick mental tip. The fact that a girl accepts going out for a date, drinks, coffee, lunch, etc with you alone already is a sign of proof that at some level she's thought "yea he seems cool, I'd like to know more about him and could see myself kissing him". Otherwise she wouldn't have said yes to the date. You already have the first answer to the test in that she's admitting she's into you that she could see herself with you. Don't forget that and think you need to jump through hoops to prove your worth. And don't think that you're going to unveil everything to the girl on 1 date either. Maybe it's a confidence/insecurity issue you have where you say "I'm very picky" so you have an excuse not to go on a 2nd date and step out of your comfort zone. The check list you made in your OP shows that you're not being yourself, instead you're performing what you think a first date should be and act like. If you ever want to have a relationship, get your first kiss, find a girl, then you're going to need to step out of the comfort zone and take some chances.

July 12, 2015

...anyone over 34 isn't compatible with me either.

My problem really is very simply most of my life I have spent around older people, 10-15 years older than me, this has given me great opportunity to learn a few things but it also meant I never got into the club, bar type thing, added to which the people I spend time around are settled, none have ever had issues finding nice dates, best friend is married to a really lovely lady.

^^^This^^^ is your problem.

Your interests, way of looking at life, your manners etc. are all of someone 10-15 older than you, but you are not willing to date anyone older than 34, so there is a mismatch there.

YOU value intellect, "class" and style, but that often comes with age and as you are finding, the women your age are more into heels, clothes, clubbing and who drank who under the table, than the finer points of dining, politics, religion and music that you are not going to find in the pop charts.

The woman your age and younger are, I guess, seeing that mismatch too, and they do not want to date their "dad", even if he is only 31.

It is not that such women do not exist, they do, it is just a very small pool in the age group you have defined for yourself.

Add in who YOU are physically attracted to, chemistry and whether THEY find you attractive as a dating prospect, it is turning into a search for a needle in a haystack.

I do not think you will turn overnight into a hard drinking clubber, fascinated by hot babes with an IQ similar to their bra size, so I suggest you raise your age group to include a lot older women.

I guess a more old fashioned thinking guy who can treat them like a lady and who is earnest and intelligent, is going to be very attractive to older, educated, single women with the intellect and the conversation skills you desire.

July 12, 2015

^^^This^^^ is your problem.
Your interests, way of looking at life, your manners etc. are all of someone 10-15 older than you, but you are not willing to date anyone older than 34, so there is a mismatch there.

YOU value intellect, "class" and style, but that often comes with age and as you are finding, the women your age are more into heels, clothes, clubbing and who drank who under the table, than the finer points of dining, politics, religion and music that you are not going to find in the pop charts.
The woman your age and younger are, I guess, seeing that mismatch too, and they do not want to date their "dad", even if he is only 31.

It is not that such women do not exist, they do, it is just a very small pool in the age group you have defined for yourself.
Add in who YOU are physically attracted to, chemistry and whether THEY find you attractive as a dating prospect, it is turning into a search for a needle in a haystack.

I do not think you will turn overnight into a hard drinking clubber, fascinated by hot babes with an IQ similar to their bra size, so I suggest you raise your age group to include a lot older women.

I guess a more old fashioned thinking guy who can treat them like a lady and who is earnest and intelligent, is going to be very attractive to older, educated, single women with the intellect and the conversation skills you desire.

Older is a problem on numerous levels, kids being one, tons of baggage being the other and to be honest there is usually a very good reason why someone 35-40 is still single. (see what I did there).

I am not against clubbing or doing those things, never bothered me, if I met someone I liked who did them then I would be prepared to compromise.

As it happens I have met a 24yo who thinks much like I do, does similar things to me but alas I am apparently too ugly.

As they say, cant win them, cant win any of them lol.

July 12, 2015

Older is a problem on numerous levels, kids being one, tons of baggage being the other and to be honest there is usually a very good reason why someone 35-40 is still single. (see what I did there).

I am not against clubbing or doing those things, never bothered me, if I met someone I liked who did them then I would be prepared to compromise.

As it happens I have met a 24yo who thinks much like I do, does similar things to me but alas I am apparently too ugly.

As they say, cant win them, cant win any of them lol.

You are generalizing and stereotyping on so many different levels which prevents you from potential matches. No, not everyone who is 35+ and single has a kid or baggage. You're also obviously looking for a very specific type of girl who can "wow" you. First of all if you think your are going to be "wow'd" through OLD chats or messages then you'll be disappointed and waiting forever. It is nearly impossible to interpret someone's true character just by reading their words. You cannot tell the tone or true intention they are going for just like they cannot tell when you are being sarcastic or comical. Even once you meet them, most people are reserved on a first date so you won't get a true idea to what's beyond the surface and know them on a deeper level. This is why it's called dating and people don't get married after the 1st date or message exchange.

You're also hypocritical when you believe these women have something wrong with them by being single at a certain age. Just like a 31 yo man whose never been kissed would suggest there are deeper issues. You need to give different women of all ages and backgrounds a chance if you ever hope to have a chance yourself.

You might want to meet a young-mid twenties girl but the ones who are intellectually mature stereotypically won't be using online dating at this point in their lives yet. Can you give me an example of something that a girl has said to you via message or while on a date that has "wow'd" you or some example of what she did in person that made you

July 12, 2015

I'm not sure if you mentioned it but how are you finding these girls to go out with in the first place? Dating websites? Meet them randomly? Through work? Friends? You talk about "selling her on your attributes " , making yourself smell good, and presentable like its a sales transaction and she's going to decide at the end of she's going to purchase or not. Having the date so methodically planned on prevents you from going off topic and having the conversation flow naturally.

Something that's always worked for me whether it's on dates or going up to girls in public - I ask the girl "ok so tell me a fun fact about yourself". This usually eliminates all the mundane small talk and is a fun way of getting them to open up a bit and actually think about something she can share with you that the typical acquaintance wouldn't know. If she says "I don't know" then that's when you should give her an example and tell her something about you. I.e "I was an extra on a movie/tv show once... Or "my brother set me on fire when I was 10 by shooting a firework towards me on 4th of July". Yea some things I've said can be/sound corny but that'll get her to laugh and the convo can go from there. Make something up of you feel like it to, nothing wrong with a little embellishment to spark the date up a bit.

And you say that none of your dates ask you anything about yourself. Why don't you ask them to? I've done that plenty of times. "Ok now it's your turn, ask me something you're curious about". That puts the ball in her hands and she can direct where the convo goes from there. You'd be surprised at some of the things I've been asked in which I was surprised that's what they wanted to know and intrigued me a bit.

Fun convo tips that've worked also is asking hypothetical flirty/fun questions. "ok so if you were stranded on a desert island but could bring 3 things with you, what would you bring?"
"It's your last meal... What would you order" ... I could go on and on about the ridiculous questions I've come up with and discussed. It may work for you it may not. I'm not really interested in having business type convos with my dates on the 1st date because I work all week and I don't need my date to feel like another job/task/work. The girls replies to these questions also let's me know if she's an uptight person who can't play along. OR if she's into it and makes it easy by being open to non traditional talking topics/points.

You also said that you hold off going in for a kiss, or holding hands, or touching because "it's not worth the risk". Sorry but what the heck is the risk? Not like you're going to be arrested for trying to hold her hand. The only risk is being embarrassed and if you ask any guy (even ones who have slept with 100's of women) they will tel you that they've been rejected, turned down more times than they can count. Who cares.. What's she gonna say "omg were on a date why would you try and kiss me/ hold my hand?!"... Um that's what you do on dates.

Also quick mental tip. The fact that a girl accepts going out for a date, drinks, coffee, lunch, etc with you alone already is a sign of proof that at some level she's thought "yea he seems cool, I'd like to know more about him and could see myself kissing him". Otherwise she wouldn't have said yes to the date. You already have the first answer to the test in that she's admitting she's into you that she could see herself with you. Don't forget that and think you need to jump through hoops to prove your worth. And don't think that you're going to unveil everything to the girl on 1 date either. Maybe it's a confidence/insecurity issue you have where you say "I'm very picky" so you have an excuse not to go on a 2nd date and step out of your comfort zone. The check list you made in your OP shows that you're not being yourself, instead you're performing what you think a first date should be and act like. If you ever want to have a relationship, get your first kiss, find a girl, then you're going to need to step out of the comfort zone and take some chances.

Interesting post.

As far as topics go I do tend to go off topic and do as you suggest, however as bizarre as this sound, often that just leads to a big mess because the person is usually so rigid they cant even answer questions like that.

When it comes to kissing I would simply prefer to err on the safe side and prevent any awkward moments unless I am really into the person. Hindsight is a lovely thing though.

As for asking them to ask about me, why, if they were genuinely interested they would ask of their own accord.

When it comes to second dates, genuinely the ones I have wanted to see again simply were not into me, either I made a terrible first impression or they don't find me physically attractive or my inexperience is a total turn off, more often then not I think its the last two.

July 12, 2015

Older is a problem on numerous levels, kids being one, tons of baggage being the other and to be honest there is usually a very good reason why someone 35-40 is still single. (see what I did there).

I am not against clubbing or doing those things, never bothered me, if I met someone I liked who did them then I would be prepared to compromise.

As it happens I have met a 24yo who thinks much like I do, does similar things to me but alas I am apparently too ugly.

Single women 35-40 DO NOT all have kids, and they do not ALL have baggage or a "good reason" and yes I did see what you did there.

Dabbling in the early/mid twenties age group in OLD is fraught with problems FOR YOU, as what you actually seek is as rare as hen's teeth.

Even this "wonder girl" may have been a complete nightmare had you managed to get beyond a few dates.

Just because someone doesn't see you as an attractive enough proposition to go on a date with, doesn't make you actually physically ugly...

YOU have to change your mindset in some way, else you will still be posting here at 36, 46, 56, 66, 76....

July 12, 2015

To reply to your question as to why you should ask or tell your date to ask you something. Sometimes they need a little push to engage into your background. Also I get the feeling that the conversation which you come up with can be awkward or unusual so by asking the girl to ask you something it ensures that the conversation will be led down a path that they're comfortable with.

Also, you posted a fair amount of threads looking for opinions/advice because clearly up to this point in your life the methods you've come up with have not worked. "if she wants to know more about me she will ask on her own" mentality you have is basically a test that only you know about going into the date but the girl is unaware. Why not change a few things, take a few risks and once again step out of your comfort zone to entice a different outcome.

And how do you know that the girls you've went on 2nd dates with or wanted to go on second dates with thought you were unattractive, or your inexperience was a turn off, weren't into you, or you made a bad first impression??

Are you asking them "why not, please explain" when they decline a 2nd date with you? I highly recommend you NOT doing that if in fact that's they case. If that's not the case then I don't understand how you arrive at those conclusions. If they decline the 2nd date and your formulate their reasons behind why based off your own insecurities or assumptions then YOU sabatoging yourself and using your negativity as a crutch.

Gotta start doing things differently. I'm sure you're aware of the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

July 12, 2015

Interesting post.

As far as topics go I do tend to go off topic and do as you suggest, however as bizarre as this sound, often that just leads to a big mess because the person is usually so rigid they cant even answer questions like that.

When it comes to kissing I would simply prefer to err on the safe side and prevent any awkward moments unless I am really into the person. Hindsight is a lovely thing though.

As for asking them to ask about me, why, if they were genuinely interested they would ask of their own accord.

When it comes to second dates, genuinely the ones I have wanted to see again simply were not into me, either I made a terrible first impression or they don't find me physically attractive or my inexperience is a total turn off, more often then not I think its the last two.

Additionally you said "I do tend to go off topic and do as you suggest, however as bizarre as this sound, often that just leads to a big mess because the person is usually so rigid they cant even answer questions like that" .... Does the fact that this is a recurring theme seem as odd to you as it does to me? These girls can't ALL be rigid to Such an extent. I suspect it's the manner in which you speaking to them. And what do these women have in common which has made you ask them on a date?

What in their online dating profiles attracts you and makes you want to date them? Or do you just ask everyone who is matched with you out without any further screening or inquiry? What do you typically discuss once you get on the date?

If you think you're coming across as strange then practice what you will talk about in front of s mirror or record yourself using your cellphone then play it back and listen for yourself to see if you sound fun and engaging, or monotone and mundane. The best thing to do is let the girl do most of the talking. Probing questions about her wil prevent you from scaring them off of making bad first impressions.

July 12, 2015

Just like a 31 yo man whose never been kissed would suggest there are deeper issues. You need to give different women of all ages and backgrounds a chance if you ever hope to have a chance yourself.

You might want to meet a young-mid twenties girl but the ones who are intellectually mature stereotypically won't be using online dating at this point in their lives yet. Can you give me an example of something that a girl has said to you via message or while on a date that has "wow'd" you or some example of what she did in person that made you

The bold parts are the ones I am going to reply to.

I have met up with older females from OLD and I found them to be no better intellectually than the younger ones, often they were riddled with baggage and there was a certain level of desperation.

Perhaps I also need to point out I am 31 but I look 18, I still get asked for ID when I go to clubs.

Wow for me is defined in many ways, one being a person capable of a meaningful conversation, someone who is confident, smart and for want of a better word: worldly.

Wow is also using good English, sounds trivial but a lot of how we communicate is defined by our vocab, good vocab always impresses me.

Maybe the wow is the fact she took an interest in me, we could laugh easily, communication was good and I enjoyed spending time with her.

Basically for me wow isn't defined by any one thing but a combination of things and how they all come together.

July 12, 2015

Single women 35-40 DO NOT all have kids, and they do not ALL have baggage or a "good reason" and yes I did see what you did there.

Dabbling in the early/mid twenties age group in OLD is fraught with problems FOR YOU, as what you actually seek is as rare as hen's teeth.
Even this "wonder girl" may have been a complete nightmare had you managed to get beyond a few dates.

Just because someone doesn't see you as an attractive enough proposition to go on a date with, doesn't make you actually physically ugly...

YOU have to change your mindset in some way, else you will still be posting here at 36, 46, 56, 66, 76....

There is one difference because I know I could have made it work with "wonder girl", like me she is 24 but stuck with the mind of a mid 30's person, like me she doesn't club, doesn't have a huge number of friends and I know this thanks to a mutual friend. Wonder girl has very similar dating issues to me.

In respect of OLD I have given up on that. Going to deregister from all of them and save quite a bit of money in the process but that's immaterial, I was prepared to make the investment but the ROI has been pathetic to say the least.

Older doesn't interest me at all, especially because I look so young I risk looking like a "toy boy" and that isn't an image I want to project.

Thanks for the confidence boost about looks but clearly that isn't the case because all that's interested in me resembles people who are extremely large in build and if that's the best I can do, well yes, no thanks.

I don't think there is anything wrong with my mind set , simply its just the fundamentals of me people don't like.

July 12, 2015

To reply to your question as to why you should ask or tell your date to ask you something. Sometimes they need a little push to engage into your background. Also I get the feeling that the conversation which you come up with can be awkward or unusual so by asking the girl to ask you something it ensures that the conversation will be led down a path that they're comfortable with.

Also, you posted a fair amount of threads looking for opinions/advice because clearly up to this point in your life the methods you've come up with have not worked. "if she wants to know more about me she will ask on her own" mentality you have is basically a test that only you know about going into the date but the girl is unaware. Why not change a few things, take a few risks and once again step out of your comfort zone to entice a different outcome.

And how do you know that the girls you've went on 2nd dates with or wanted to go on second dates with thought you were unattractive, or your inexperience was a turn off, weren't into you, or you made a bad first impression??

Are you asking them "why not, please explain" when they decline a 2nd date with you? I highly recommend you NOT doing that if in fact that's they case. If that's not the case then I don't understand how you arrive at those conclusions. If they decline the 2nd date and your formulate their reasons behind why based off your own insecurities or assumptions then YOU sabatoging yourself and using your negativity as a crutch.

Gotta start doing things differently. I'm sure you're aware of the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Ok lets go in a "business like" fashion and go from point to point.

1:Usually the conversation is about what they are interested in, we talk around that and I would ask about them and take an interest in them, I don't think its too much to ask for them to ask me a question from time to time. If I steer the conversation off its usually to inject some humour which usually fails because they miss my sense of humour, again some people do get this humour, most don't. People need to be able to actually talk about interests and things associated with them, for example if someone does volunteer work at an animal shelter, we talk about how many of the pets are rehomed and its a pity more aren't adopted, I then ask if she is aware of a welfare that has a charity shop, this is no confronted by blank stares, oh dear so I steer back onto the shelter she works for, my point being if you have an interest in something than at the very least have a rounded interest and be able to talk about the interest in totality not in isolation.

Case in point "wonder girl" is into wine, we spoke about wine farms and different places, she was able to speak about a vast array of them and I could too, even though I am not hugely informed about wine farms. I also keep the conversation light and do my best to read body language.

2 Risk, the very nature of the work I do is risk based, everything revolves around risk and mitigating risk as best as one can and then deciding what risk one can accept. When it comes to dating, where do you suggest I take risks?

I have been out to clubs, for years I tried this, everyone of interest has a date and intellectually these places don't work, I am not after a one night stand I actually want someone I can take to lunch, dinners, etc.

3 &4The mere fact one friend zoned me and then cut me off completely immediately after meeting me told me a lot. Another told me after a date via text that she could see within 5 min I wasn't attractive enough

Another told me I am too skinny.

Another told me there is no chemistry, which is the same as saying you are too ugly.

Ultimately of the 3 I really liked, "wonder girl" simply isn't into me, so much so she wont even be my friend, that's pretty telling if you ask me.

5 Refer above, honestly the fact they don't want to see me tells me everything I need to know and the supposition is largely academic as to why, reality is I think I have a lot to offer, they think I have nothing to offer and seeing 3 of "them" tacitly seem to agree then I guess I can write myself off as a simple non conformist, full of general knowledge, apparently none of it useful at all.

Not a pity party but simply telling it how it is based on experience. Experience shapes opinion.

July 12, 2015

If you think you're coming across as strange then practice what you will talk about in front of s mirror or record yourself using your cellphone then play it back and listen for yourself to see if you sound fun and engaging, or monotone and mundane. The best thing to do is let the girl do most of the talking. Probing questions about her wil prevent you from scaring them off of making bad first impressions.

Yes, I agree, that is a great idea.

Keep doing it, watch your eyes, your mouth, your body language and mannerisms. Are you open and inviting or are you shut down and defensive

Practice.

Shy, inexperienced, reserved and scared people on dates can give the wrong impression totally.

I don't think highly of you.
I don't have much time for you, I am not interested in you.
I am better than you, I am an arrogant, self involved person.
I don't think highly of myself, I self-deprecate too often.
I am pretty antisocial and I would never talk to you normally.
I am antisocial and I can have a nasty bite.
I am bored.
I sigh, look around, look at my watch too much, indicating I would rather be somewhere else, but that is because the conversation just died and I am struggling.
I give off the wrong signals, in case I make a fool of myself, but it is interpreted by others that I just do not care for them.
My body language is defensive and aggressive.

July 12, 2015

Yes, I agree, that is a great idea.
Keep doing it, watch your eyes, your mouth, your body language and mannerisms. Are you open and inviting or are you shut down and defensive
Practice.

Shy, inexperienced, reserved and scared people on dates can give the wrong impression totally.

I don't think highly of you.
I don't have much time for you, I am not interested in you.
I am better than you, I am an arrogant, self involved person.
I don't think highly of myself, I self-deprecate too often.
I am pretty antisocial and I would never talk to you normally.
I am antisocial and I can have a nasty bite.
I am bored.
I sigh, look around, look at my watch too much, indicating I would rather be somewhere else, but that is because the conversation just died and I am struggling.
I give off the wrong signals, in case I make a fool of myself, but it is interpreted by others that I just do not care for them.
My body language is defensive and aggressive.

Thanks for the suggestion but I am what I am, really if I need to then practice how to speak where to put my hands, how can the whole thing be natural? Quite simply it cant and then the date simply becomes an over practiced false charade.

What signals am I supposed to give off, I simply go and be me. I do self deprecate but not too often, reality is my confidence is fairly low, how can it not be when everything I do is a complete flop, would be stupid to pretend otherwise, yes its easier with "miss amazing" because I have to think a bit to keep up with the banter.

July 12, 2015

Thanks for the suggestion but I am what I am.

^^^THAT is the mindset you need to change.

I guess you are stuck in a rut.

It may be a bit uncomfortable, a bit miserable even, but it is your lovely, little, cosy rut and you do not want to leave it, despite all here and IRL trying to pull you out of it.

Each suggestion to bring you out of that rut, is batted back by you with a logical and rational excuse.

BUT they are just that - excuses.

July 12, 2015

^^^THAT is the mindset you need to change.

I guess you are stuck in a rut.
It may be a bit uncomfortable, a bit miserable even, but it is your lovely, little, cosy rut and you do not want to leave it, despite all here and IRL trying to pull you out of it.

Each suggestion to bring you out of that rut, is batted back by you with a logical and rational excuse.
BUT they are just that - excuses.

Then tell me what do people want and I will try and change to that, even if its not something I enjoy or like? Even when I tried to be what I am not that didn't make much difference either.

Logical, cold, rational, that is me, I weigh up the odds, look at the possibility and then I make a decision.

People say, get out of your comfort zone, fine enough and do what exactly?

How, what and why?

Trust me, this isn't a nice nor a comfortable place to be and I suppose I could throw up my hands and shout the often repeated "its not fair" line but that isn't me, I rather sit and stew and hold everything in.

Or I sit and work on projects which I hope I can finish and do well in the hope maybe besides then turning out well, someone may find those accomplishments impressive enough.

July 12, 2015

Then tell me what do people want and I will try and change to that, even if its not something I enjoy or like? Even when I tried to be what I am not that didn't make much difference either.

Logical, cold, rational, that is me, I weigh up the odds, look at the possibility and then I make a decision.

People say, get out of your comfort zone, fine enough and do what exactly?

How, what and why?

Trust me, this isn't a nice nor a comfortable place to be and I suppose I could throw up my hands and shout the often repeated "its not fair" line but that isn't me, I rather sit and stew and hold everything in.

Or I sit and work on projects which I hope I can finish and do well in the hope maybe besides then turning out well, someone may find those accomplishments impressive enough.

You are who you are but how are you with your friends? Do you have fun? Do you laugh? Do you make jokes? Because coming across as logical, cold, and rational doesn't sound too exciting to a woman.

She wants a man who is fun to be with, who she can laugh with, and who can make her feel good about herself when she is with him.

So...do fun things. Do things that get you both talking and laughing.

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