she won't promise honesty

[deadelvis]

so in the ongoing saga of my girlfriend... a few days ago we had a big talk about some of the issues which have been plaguing our relationship. I asked her again which of the guys we know she's slept with in the past. This is something that always bothered me, especially because we know a lot of people and she's always been very mysterious about her past. She came out and listed off a bunch of guys I know, but to my surprise there were a few names of guys who she has always specifically denied having any sexual history with. I was a bit shocked to hear that she had been consistently lying about her history with those particular guys.

 

Especially because it wasn't anyone close to me, and there didn't seem to be any logical reason to lie about it. One of the guys I never even asked her about, but she had made a point of saying several times "just so you know, we never hooked up". I found it a bit odd. I don't care about her having slept with these guys, and it didn't really come as a surprise. But then after the conversation I told her I was disappointed that she had lied to me about those couple guys in the past, and I asked her why she had lied about them. She didn't really have an answer, and got really defensive. This whole thing really hurt my trust. So today I asked her "will you swear to me that you'll never lie to me again?" and not only did she refuse, she got super angry and started a huge fight over it, threatening to end the relationship and telling me "I'm not playing your stupid games!"

 

I didn't think asking her to promise she would never lie to me again was such a big thing to ask, especially after recently coming clean about previous dishonesty. So I guess my question is this... This must surely be a sign that she's got some other ongoing lies right? Otherwise it would be so easy to promise never to lie. Unless you've already told some lies and you don't want to come clean.

Edited July 10, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Winterina]

so in the ongoing saga of my girlfriend... a few days ago we had a big talk about some of the issues which have been plaguing our relationship. I asked her again which of the guys we know she's slept with in the past. This is something that always bothered me, especially because we know a lot of people and she's always been very mysterious about her past. She came out and listed off a bunch of guys I know, but to my surprise there were a few names of guys who she has always specifically denied having any sexual history with. I was a bit shocked to hear that she had been consistently lying about her history with those particular guys. Especially because it wasn't anyone close to me, and there didn't seem to be any logical reason to lie about it. One of the guys I never even asked her about, but she had made a point of saying several times "just so you know, we never hooked up". I found it a bit odd. I don't care about her having slept with these guys, and it didn't really come as a surprise. But then after the conversation I told her I was disappointed that she had lied to me about those couple guys in the past, and I asked her why she had lied about them. She didn't really have an answer, and got really defensive. This whole thing really hurt my trust. So today I asked her "will you swear to me that you'll never lie to me again?" and not only did she refuse, she got super angry and started a huge fight over it, threatening to end the relationship and telling me "I'm not playing your stupid games!" I didn't think asking her to promise she would never lie to me again was such a big thing to ask, especially after recently coming clean about previous dishonesty. So I guess my question is this... This must surely be a sign that she's got some other ongoing lies right? Otherwise it would be so easy to promise never to lie. Unless you've already told some lies and you don't want to come clean.

 

I am having some of the similar issues, no issues with things just lies about them.

Maybe she and my boyfriend could hook up? They would make a swell couple.

The fact that she is so defensive is suspicious to me and if she already was caught in lie that should feel like eternal burning shame and she should do everything to correct it, make you feel at ease, and of course, promise and stick to it that she will never lie again.

 

 

I think you are spot on with last 3 sentences.

[deadelvis]

I am having some of the similar issues, no issues with things just lies about them.

Maybe she and my boyfriend could hook up? They would make a swell couple.

The fact that she is so defensive is suspicious to me and if she already was caught in lie that should feel like eternal burning shame and she should do everything to correct it, make you feel at ease, and of course, promise and stick to it that she will never lie again.

 

 

I think you are spot on with that last couple of sentences.

 

Right. She's had a hard time with honesty for a while now, she's big on "omissions" concerning her sexual history with various people. But she's promised not to lie to me before, pretty much after every time I caught her in a lie. But this time she got really defensive, but I also asked her in a much more serious "swear on a stack of bibles" type of way. Her crazy reaction and refusal made me realize that she's got some serious skeletons she's still keeping in the closet.

[deadelvis]

although I must admit there's a certain irony in making someone promise not to lie, because ya know, they could just lie about not lying...

[Phoe]

"I'll tell you honestly, that I can't be honest"

 

total mind**** there, can spiral that around endlessly.

 

Reminds me of when my ex said "I'm a pathological liar. Well, no, that's a lie"

 

O__O

[casey.lives]

why is this bothering you?? it sounds like your fishing for problems. is she cheating on you?? do you know every little thing about her.. some people are discreet about their sexual history... and it's none of your business who she once slepted with. you weren't in a relationship so......wtf is your problem. personally, i rather not know who your sexual partners were... i think it's much more helpful to the health of the current relationship. be grateful she is sparing you... you already sound super insecure... why add to it??!

[CarrieT]

Sounds like you just opened another whole can of worms.

 

OP, you said the issues were "plaguing the relationship" but, honestly, I think they are plaguing YOU and you can't let sleeping dogs lie.

 

Why does she need to divulge everything?!?'

[deadelvis]

I just wanted to know which of the guys who we hang around with she's had sex with. She has a lot of male friends and she's hooked up with a lot of them. I just like knowing if her friend "John" who she's having a drink with is really just a friend or a former f-buddy.

[deadelvis]

But I wasn't surprised at the guys she mentioned. Most she already told me about. But having lied about a few was weird, especially because she was very adamant about "never hooking up" with one guy in particular. I never even brought him up, but she continually insisted they never had sex, until a few days ago when she said they did. Just odd behavior really. But I don't care about that as much as I'm just worried about the lying and her refusing to promise honesty in the future is just messed up.

[CarrieT]

There is no reason for you to know who she f*cked in the past if she is with you now.

[deadelvis]

Even if it's people we hang out with?

[deadelvis]

Her refusing to promise honesty is like saying "I'm going to lie to you, that I can promise, in fact I've been lying to you from day one"

[ScotchBeef]

Questions about past partners, or the answers that follow, generally act as poison to a relationship. Ignorance is bliss. That knowledge will offer no benefits to your life or indeed this relationship.

[deadelvis]

Questions about past partners, or the answers that follow, generally act as poison to a relationship. Ignorance is bliss. That knowledge will offer no benefits to your life or indeed this relationship.

 

Perhaps, but we live in a small town, and some of these guys are people we see a lot. I feel a lot better knowing which ones she has history with. Mostly for my own protection. I don't want her going camping with some guy she used to sleep with.

[Versacehottie]

Oh gosh. I don't want to be mean but this is a super dysfunctional relationship. She is a proven liar. You should test to see if she is lying about anything else but who she slept with (household things, money, etc?). If she lies about things besides the guys, you should 100% break up with her.

 

I don't condone lying but you are pushing her into it if it IS just the guys. You need to decide do you want to be with her or not, in spite of her past. BTW, most people have one. I'd be sick of having the same argument over and over with you too. It's almost like the two of you are getting off on it in some way. Like she is the big object of desire by people you know. And you almost love it because you've got her like she's some big prize and hate it because inherently that's a conflict. If you guys are going to have a real chance, you need to drop it. Unless you think she is a cheater now and then really why are you still in it?

 

Sorry, just trying to be blunt. Feels like there was no other way.

[deadelvis]

She was a cheater in the past. That's part of it. And some of the guys in question are the ones she cheated on her last boyfriend with.

[deadelvis]

I do love her in spite of her past, but I'm really tired of the mystery and secrecy thing. And now the lying and refusing to promise honesty. blech

[Versacehottie]

One other thing. Say she is going to lunch with "John". Does it matter if she has slept with him before or not? Definitely if you don't want her to see guys she has been with before, just tell her that and insist on it--as in it's a dealbreaker for you. All your detective work in the world won't help if she's a liar anyway. You need to have trust in each other.

 

It might be easier if you just didn't let her see any male friends. Or do you want to be that guy? It's a slippery slope, see?

 

At the bottom of it all, you don't trust her. She doesn't trust you to have honest conversations because you won't drop it anyway and honesty further erodes your trust instead of being a positive starting point. OR she's a liar and a sneak and you're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. You can't control your way out of this one. If she's going to lie and cheat, it's a matter of time. All you can control is what YOU do. Accept, believe or say goodbye. Sorry

[Satu]

(This long, but worth quoting in full, and strangely relevant.)

 

 

 

If I don’t know I don’t know

I think I know

If I don’t know I know

I think I don’t know

 

There is something I don’t know

that I am supposed to know.

I don’t know what it is I don’t know,

and yet am supposed to know,

and I feel I look stupid

if I seem both not to know it

and not know what it is I don’t know.

 

This is nerve-racking

since I don’t know what I must pretend

to know.

Therefore I pretend to know everything.

I feel you know what I am supposed to

know

but you can’t tell me what it is

because you don’t know that I don’t know

what it is.

You may know what I don’t know, but not

that I don’t know it,

and I can’t tell you. So you will have to tell

me everything.

Jack can see that he sees

what Jill can’t see

and that Jill can’t see Jill can’t see it

Jack can see that he sees

what Jill can’t see

but Jack can’t seethat Jill can’t see

that Jill can’t see it

Jack tries to get Jill to see

that Jack can see

what Jill can’t see

but Jack can’t see

that Jill can’t see that Jill can’t see it

Jack sees

there is something Jill can’t see

and Jack sees

that Jill can’t see she can’t see it

Although Jack can see Jill can’t see she can’t

see it

he can’t see that he can’t see it himself

Jack can see

 

1. there is something Jill can’t see

2. and that she can see there is something

she can’t see

3. but that she can’t see what she can’t

see although

(Jack can see that)

4. she can see Jack can see whatever it is

she can see she can’t see

but can’t see what.

 

Jack thinks

he does not know

what he thinks

Jill thinks

he does not know

But Jill thinks Jack does know it.

So Jill does not know

she does not know

that Jack does not know

that Jill thinks

that Jack does know

and Jack does not know he does not know

that Jill does not know she does not

know

 

that Jack does not know

that Jill thinks Jacks knows

what Jack thinks he does not know

 

Jack doesn’t know he knows

and he doesn’t know

Jill does not know.

Jill doesn’t know she doesn’t know,

and doesn’t know

that Jack doesn’t know he knows

and that he does not know Jill does

not know.

They have no problem.

 

Jack thinks that

what he knows that Jill does not,

is that there is nothing to be known

of the order Jill is seeking to know,

but that Jill has to discover this for

herself.

 

Jill thinks

Jack knows what

Jill thinks Jill doesn’t know.

Jack does not know

there is something to know

that Jill thinks

she does not and

Jack does.

So Jack persuades Jill that there is

nothing to know.

 

Jack

knows he does not know

and sees that Jill

does not know she knows.

By telling Jack

what Jack knows he does not know

Jill helps Jack to help Jill

to know she knows

what she does not know she knows.

 

Jill however

thinks

she knows she does not know

and that Jack knows

she knows she does not know

and that Jack knows

what Jill does not know.

 

Jill thinks

that there is something she knows

and that she does not know she knows

It.

She thinks Jack does not know it

and that Jack knows he does not.

Jill hopes that through Jack

Jill will

know that she knows

what Jack knows he does not—

but only if Jack can realize

that Jill knows

what Jack knows Jack does not

and Jill does not know she does.

 

Jack knows he does not know.

Jill thinks she knows what Jack does not

know, but

she does not know he does not know it.

Jack does not know

Jill does not know he does not know,

and thinks she knows what he knows he

doesn’t.

Jack believes Jill.

Jack now does not know he does not know.

One happy ending.

Jack thinks Jack sees what he does not,*

and that Jill sees what she does not see.

Jill believes Jack.

She now thinks she sees what Jack thinks

Jack sees

and that Jack sees it too.

They may now both be completely wrong.

 

Jack does not see something.

Jill thinks Jack does see it.

Jack thinks Jack does see it and Jill does

not.

Jill does not see herself what

she thinks Jack does see.

Jack tells Jill

what Jack thinks Jill does not see.

Jill realizes

that,

if Jack thinks

Jill does not see that,

which Jill thinks she does,

Jack does not see

what Jill thought

Jack saw.

 

Jill thinks

Jack thinks

Jill does not see something.

Jack does think

Jill sees it

but Jack does not see

Jill thinks

Jack thinks

Jill does not see.

 

Jill thinks she can’t see what she thinks

Jack can see,

and that Jack himself thinks that

Jill does not see it.

Jack sees Jill does see it

that she thinks she does not,

and that she thinks

he thinks

she does not

But Jack can’t see what Jill can’t see

whereby she thinks she can’t see what

Jack thinks she can,

and thinks he thinks she can’t.

 

For example:

 

Jill thinks

Jack thinks Jill is stupid.

Jack does not think Jill is stupid,

but cannot see why

Jill thinks Jack thinks Jill is,

when Jack does not.

Nor can Jill, except that Jack is lying.

Jack sees

Jill can’t see Jill can’t see

and that

Jill can’t see

Jack can see and

see he sees

what Jill can’t see she can’t.

Jack tries to get Jill to

realize that there may be something

she can’t see she can’t see.

Jill thinks Jill sees it

and can see that Jack thinks

Jill thinks she sees it

but that Jack thinks

Jill can’t see she can’t.

Jill thinks

Jack can’t see he can’t see

what he thinks he can,

and that he can’t see (therefore)

that she sees what he thinks he sees

but doesn’t.

Jack thinks he knows

Jill thinks Jill does not know

Jack tells Jill

what Jack knows

and knows he knows

and knows Jill does not know

and knows Jill sometimes

thinks she knows

when she does not.

Sometimes Jack feels

Jill idealizes Jack, making him

omniscient (omnipotent)

so he points out to Jill

that he is only human,

he does not know everything and can’t do

everything.

Jack says Jill

makes Jack

omnipotent, to remain impotent, to make

Jack

impotent to make her potent, to

destroy Jack’s

potency, which she envies….

Jill thinks Jack is wrong.

Jack thinks

he does not know what (he can see)

Jill thinks Jack knows,

and that Jill knows

what Jill thinks Jack knows,

that he thinks

he does not.

Jack tells Jill:

‘You think I know this,

but I don’t.’

Jill thinks he does, but refuses to tell her.

Jack knows he does not know,

but he does not know that Jill does not

know

 

she does not know he knows he does

not know.

and that Jill realizes that that is what he thinks,

but that she thinks he is wrong.

 

Jack sees that

Jill does not know

Jack does not know what

Jill thinks

Jack knows.

But Jack can’t see

why Jill does not know

that Jack does not know

what Jill thinks

he knows.

Jack realizes that he knows

Jill does not know

Jack knows

he doesn’t know

what she thinks

he does

but that this is not what she thinks he

knows.

 

Moreover Jack sees that Jill herself knows

what Jill

thinks Jack knows, but that Jill does not

realize

she knows it.

Jack sees that

Jill knows

what Jill thinks

Jack knows

and that Jill does not know

she knows

and Jack knows he does not.

He cannot tell Jill

what it is

since, although he can see Jill knows it,

he does not know it himself.

Jill does not know

Jack does not know X,

and Jack cannot tell her more than that

there is

something, he does not know what,

he does not know.

There is something Jack can’t see.

He knows there is something he can’t see,

but doesn’t know what it is that he can’t

see.

But Jack can see Jill can see

that Jack can’t see something.

Jack doesn’t know

what he doesn’t know

but he thinks

Jill knows whatever the something is

which he doesn’t know.

Jack can’t tell Jill what he

wants Jill to tell him.

Jill can’t tell him either

because although Jill knows X

Jill does not know

that Jack does not know X.

Jack can see

that Jill knows

he realizes that she

does not know she knows X.

Jill can only discover

she knows it

by realizing what Jack does not

But Jill

cannot see what

Jack does not know.

 

If she did she would be glad to tell him.

Jack can see he sees

what he can see Jill can’t see

and he can see

that Jill can’t see that she can’t see

but he can’t see WHY

Jill can’t see that Jill can’t see.

 

Jill

can see that he does not understand

her

and can see that he can’t see that he

doesn’t:

and she can see

that he can’t see that he can’t see

she sees he can’t see he doesn’t.

Why does she still feel confused?

She cannot understand why he can’t see

that

she sees that he can’t see that he does not

understand.

 

Jill can see Jack can’t see,

and can’t see he can’t see.

Jill can see WHY

Jack can’t see,

but Jill cannot see WHY

Jack can’t see he can’t see.

 

Jack ‘sees’ Jill is blind

and that Jill can’t see she is.

Jack realizes they both are.

If the blind must lead the blind, it is as well

that the leader knows he is.

Jack can’t see he can’t see

and can’t see

Jill can’t see Jill can’t see it.

and vice versa.

 

- RD Laing, Knots.

[Versacehottie]

She was a cheater in the past. That's part of it. And some of the guys in question are the ones she cheated on her last boyfriend with.

 

So ultimately you don't believe that she won't cheat again. That's a horrible foundation for a relationship. Especially if it is not your experience with her. Do you think she has cheated on you? If not, why not yet? If so, why do you think she did that?

[TheBathWater]

Dump her and don't look back.

[ScotchBeef]

You need to have trust in each other.

 

 

That pretty much sums it up.

 

In the end it all comes down to trust. If you trust her, it shouldn't be an issue who she hangs out with, whether that's an ex lover or just a friend.

[Versacehottie]

I do love her in spite of her past, but I'm really tired of the mystery and secrecy thing. And now the lying and refusing to promise honesty. blech

 

Because she gives you honesty and it's still not enough for you. You are going to have to forgive her for her past and see her as the person she is now. That is, unless she is still a cheater. Right now, I only know (from what you've said) that she is lying about what you are harassing and badgering her about (the guys, the slept with list). Does she lie about other stuff?

 

Well I think everyone is deserving of a promise of honesty within a romantic relationship. Wouldn't the fact that she won't agree to that alone be enough for you to break up with her? It's pretty disrespectful. Why do you have her on a pedestal?

 

I'm asking you hard questions because I think it's not only the past, it's right now too and you just can't put your finger on why exactly you don't trust her. If you can honestly tell yourself everything that is causing me to have these feelings is about her before OUR relationship, then the problem lies with you and unsubstantiated jealousy. If seeing a guy friend caused so many problems with my bf, I'd either not see the friend or break up with my bf. I think you guys like it.

[DivorcedDad123]

She's diagnosed BPD. You're getting a small glimpse of it. It can drive you crazy in the end. Lying comes with the territory.

[deadelvis]

She's diagnosed BPD. You're getting a small glimpse of it. It can drive you crazy in the end. Lying comes with the territory.

 

Right. And lately she's been flying off the handle and really difficult to deal with in general. She gets insanely mad for no reason and she's incredibly stubborn