Why are people trying to trivialize/trash the Institution of Marriage!

July 8, 2015

While browsing the thread Casual Sex a question came to mind about why there is a contemporary trend for trivializing, trashing or minimizing the institution of marriage. I have read on various internet fora where repeatedly, people say that the institution of marriage as we know it, is dead or on it's way out and so on and so forth. I would like to put it to the good folk on this forum to answer this question with their own interpretation of marriage, the reasons why people are turning against the idea of marriage and any other useful input that they may have.

In support of why I have this question I have to state the following.

Firstly, there has been a rapid increase in the phenomenon of the Hotwife kink, Swinger clubs, Couple swaps and other manifestations of open marriage. Also, to my mind one of the biggest ways that people are trivializing marriage is by indulging in affairs.

Secondly, a trend is emerging where people are suggesting that marriage vows themselves should be revised to do away with the phrase "Till death do us part" and replace it with something which says that "As long as we remain in love" or words to that effect, implying that after that stage is reached the marriage is ripe for termination.

My point is that if one does not believe in the institution of marriage then do not enter it. Only those who respect the institution of marriage should enter it. Also, if one has willingly entered wedlock then one should make tremendous efforts to make it a success. Bailing at the first hint of trouble or, when someone who seems more attractive than your partner shows up, is, to my mind the hallmark of a fickle person and one who will always have troubled relationships. The solution does not lie in serially divorcing and marrying again.

Thirdly, there has been a proliferation of websites and apps for smart phones which facilitate cheating and infidelity and in fact, actually encourage people to step across the line even if they were not really thinking of doing so.

My own opinion is that people should not get married if they do not respect the institution rather than getting married and then trivializing it in this manner. Rather, if they wish to fornicate then let them stay single and have sex with other single partners but not as married people. This is not for any religious or ethical reasons alone but more so to avoid the emotional bomb that they let loose on their unsuspecting partners. The hurt and emotional trauma that they cause in the aftermath of their infidelity is way beyond any pleasure that they may have derived from their selfish act.

So folks please do express your opinion on this query and make any suggestions that you think could be helpful. Thank you!

July 8, 2015

IMO it is a self-centered type of looking at the world: I will despise what I cannot understand or do not like. It is like some people who do not have kids trashing having kids by talking about bad parents and "overpopulation". Or people who have kids making digs at those who choose not to.

It's not enough anymore to just decide not to do something. We have to be all judgmental and superior about it...while simultaneously telling everyone not to judge.

We're a mess.

July 8, 2015

I don't understand this either. They figure if they don't want it, then no one should want it. Evens out the playing field in their minds.

July 8, 2015

IMO it is a self-centered type of looking at the world: I will despise what I cannot understand or do not like. It is like some people who do not have kids trashing having kids by talking about bad parents and "overpopulation". Or people who have kids making digs at those who choose not to.

It's not enough anymore to just decide not to do something. We have to be all judgmental and superior about it...while simultaneously telling everyone not to judge.

We're a mess.

Right on,

I have a theory, that as many of the, "I do not want to get married" types are just not able to really have a long term relationship, but need to go to another partner after another partner. That is fine, but they cannot seem to understand the others that can stay married.

I meet many people at my age, 60 plus, that did not "settle" down, and are dieing alone. They seem to regret not "finding" someone, when they were young, or not making their many marriages work. They look around for someone to help support them. Family, is not there many times, and they wind up with a "support" group, but it is not the same. Nothing sadder then to go to a funeral, and just find co-workers, or worst, no one at all, to weep at their passing.

Time is a bitch, and as you get older, things close in and decisions you made when you were younger grow larger.

July 8, 2015

Being married to my lovely wife is my greatest achievement....not all people feel it isn't a good thing.

Best,

Grumps

July 8, 2015

I don't understand this either. They figure if they don't want it, then no one should want it. Evens out the playing field in their minds.

True with most things in life. Problem is when they try and legislate their choose so everyone has to follow their way.

July 8, 2015

Was about to post a contra-list 'till you wrote "My point is that if one does not believe in the institution of marriage then do not enter it." - definitely agree with you there. Why serial-cheating folks get into monogamous relationships altogether is a mystery to me, but I guess that's more of an ego thing - same probably goes for marriage.

July 8, 2015

So folks please do express your opinion on this query and make any suggestions that you think could be helpful. Thank you!

Infidelity is simply terrible.

People should not divorce if they haven't tried all they can to work through it. It's a last option.

However, I don't think two people who decide to have any type of non-monogamy together and working through the world together is in any way trivializing marriage. They are still partners, whether it is the type of partnership you want or not.

No one has the right to say the appropriate way to have a relationship, and that includes marriage as long as marriage in the hands of the government and offers certain rights.

July 8, 2015

Just a guy,

You asked ;-

Q.

Why are people trying to trivialize/trash the Institution of Marriage!

A. Because we are living in an increasingly secular society.

I presume you are talking about heterosexual marriage?

Marriage is a complex social institution that, like all social institutions, regulates and encourages certain human behaviors. Without effective social institutions, no amount of law and law enforcement can make a society function properly. Marriage reinforces particular values and actions that benefit society, both broadly and individually.

Unfortunately in UK, traditionists are being marginalised.

http://c4m.org.uk/downloads/30cases.pdf

July 8, 2015

Was about to post a contra-list 'till you wrote "My point is that if one does not believe in the institution of marriage then do not enter it." - definitely agree with you there. Why serial-cheating folks get into monogamous relationships altogether is a mystery to me, but I guess that's more of an ego thing - same probably goes for marriage.

THIS is what the OP is talking about...this pathetic, rude little dig.

You don't want to marry? Stay single.

Only small people bash what they do not personally agree with.

July 8, 2015

Marriage is great, if that's what you want. Traditional versions (and there are many views) of marriage are also great, if that's what you want. Marriages based on religious principles are great too - if that's what you want. And marriages that incorporate other values - from temporary marriages to open marriages, have their place in a diverse world.

However, marriage has never been a static institution (and besides, who wants to be institutionalized and regimented?). It has changed dramatically over the centuries to fit the cultures and values of the times. Recent changes are no different - they just don't fit your preconceived biases about what you think marriage should entail

Part of the decline in respect for marriage is merited, based on higher moral principles that contest the bias and discrimination of conservative religious views. Another part is due to the prejudicial legal climate around marriage and especially divorce. Men are more aware of the pitfalls that marriage can bring, even when they marry a partner who is as financially successful as them.

July 8, 2015

So folks please do express your opinion on this query and make any suggestions that you think could be helpful. Thank you!

Marriage has been sold as an absolute: The path to happiness is a wife and kids and a white picket fence. While sometimes that is true, it certainly isn't always true. More likely you have about a 25% change of being happy in the long term in a traditional marriage; happy meaning that it resembles your expectations and you have a fulfilling life.

It is a con job that falls out of religion because anything less was considered sinful.

So we should quit lying about it. Marriage fails more often than it works. And it really stinks as a deal for a lot of men. For me, in addition to more than I can say, getting married meant losing control of my sex life and then losing my sex life. Where the hell did I sign up for that?

Even after bending over backwards to be fair, way more than fair, simply because I left, she sought to ruin me. And to this day she pursues me at every opportunity.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Robert Z

July 8, 2015

Short Answer: Because traditional marriage is a modern societal experiment and it just might be a failure.

Long Answer: I love this topic! Okay, one thing everyone has to come to grips with is that this can't really be a genuine conversation about this unless we acknowledge that what we call "traditional marriage" is actually a fairly new concept and has been rapidly evolving in the last 30 years. Ok, here's the deal.

Let's define what Traditional Marriage is. Here's my stab at it:

1. Love: Man meets woman and they fall into deep romantic passionate love with each other

2. Forever: They pledge themselves to each other in perpetuity

3. Fidelity: They are expected to have complete emotional and physical fidelity. So, no extramarital sex. But it goes deeper than that because it is presumed that they will have emotional fidelity too. That is to say, no emotional affairs. The man is to provide 100% of what the woman needs and vice versa.

4. Perpetual Love: They will stay in love with each other. Forever.

Okay, what you have to realize is that this is what is commonly referred to as the Love Marriage. You marry because of love. The Love Marriage basically didn't come into existence as a societal norm until the Industrial Revolution. I'm dead serious. Prior to the Industrial Revolution the societal norm was the Economic or Procreation Marriage. That is to say the primary reason people got married was to have a family and prosper economically. Look, at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, 70%+ of the western world's population were focused on food production. Farmers, ranchers... That takes land and labor. The best way to get land and labor was through marriage and procreation. You didn't get married out of love. You got married out of necessity.

Fidelity was presumed on the part of the female. The male - less so. Part of this is that we were a patriarchal society but it goes deeper than that. It is a heredity thing. Land and wealth were passed down and the only way to insure that the blood line stayed in tact was to make sure the woman was "faithful". Men were excused from this fidelity and in some western societies it was expected that the man would take one or more extramarital lovers.

So let's look back to my definition of Traditional Marriage. About the only thing that the Economic or Procreation Marriage has in common with it is #2 - that the marriage will last in perpetuity.

We've only been getting married out of love for a little over 100 years. But even that's changing. What we consider to be Traditional Marriage is really a Late Era Love Marriage or Egalitarian Love Marriage. There are some new aspects to that definition:

5. Equality: The man and the woman are equals. Both are expected to be educated. The woman is free to pursue a career and bring economic benefit to the union. Likewise, the man is expected to play a far greater role in the raising of children. This expectation really became cemented into our societal definition of marriage in the 80's.

6. Friendship: The man and the woman are expected to be soulmates and best friends. Ok, this is really new. Like 90's and 2000's new.

Well we certainly elevated the bar! So we have now is that you fall in love. You stay in love. You get 100% of your physical, emotional and friendship needs from the other person. Both are faithful and have 100% fidelity. Both are equals. Defined gender roles are gone or at least greatly diminished.

And here's the kicker - you stay in love. Forever. It is a love marriage. If you don't have love, then the marriage isn't serving its purpose. Right?

That's a really high level of expectations. To top it off, our preparation for entering this new Love Marriage is arguably at an all time low. Adult children now live long distances away from parents. So you don't have that sort of mentorship anymore. Churches still play a role in preparing people for marriage but it is diminished as society secularizes. Couples get married out of love without paying much attention to reaching mutual agreement on expectations. Sure, kids (yes/no, how many) are usually agreed upon beforehand. But that's about it. The rest is a "we'll figure it out as we go along because hey, we're in love right? Love will find a way".

Love doesn't always last and it doesn't always find a way.

So, to put a point on an admittedly too long brain vomit on marriage: What we call Traditional Marriage is a new concept with very elevated expectations whose viability is unproven. Further, we enter into this institution with little or no preparation. With all that being said, is it at all surprising that this institution isn't working?

July 8, 2015

Marriage has been sold as an absolute: The path to happiness is a wife and kids and a white picket fence. While sometimes that is true, it certainly isn't always true. More likely you have about a 25% change of being happy in the long term in a traditional marriage; happy meaning that it resembles your expectations and you have a fulfilling life.

It is a con job that falls out of religion because anything less was considered sinful.

So we should quit lying about it. Marriage fails more often than it works. And it really stinks as a deal for a lot of men. For me, in addition to more than I can say, getting married meant losing control of my sex life and then losing my sex life. Where the hell did I sign up for that?

Even after bending over backwards to be fair, way more than fair, simply because I left, she sought to ruin me. And to this day she pursues me at every opportunity.

I could have written this post right up to the last sentence. Just change the genders.

However: I still believe in marriage.

I think it sucks that I am now less likely to be able to find a happy one because there is still a stigma from having a failed marriage.

I think many people who are serious about marriage are wary of divorced partners. They have to wonder whose choices actually ended the marriage. Did she give up too easily? Is she fickle? Is she really going to try if the going gets rough or is she comfortable with the notion of divorce now? How will I be compared to her ex? How oych baggage does sage have from the last marriage? Do I have to deal with her ex because of parenting etc.?

What a nightmar

.

I think finding a happy second marriage with aFAITHFUL, SEXUAL MAN be the equivalent of taking out a shotgun, firing and hitting the moon.

July 8, 2015

Marriage is great, if that's what you want. Traditional versions (and there are many views) of marriage are also great, if that's what you want. Marriages based on religious principles are great too - if that's what you want. And marriages that incorporate other values - from temporary marriages to open marriages, have their place in a diverse world.

However, marriage has never been a static institution (and besides, who wants to be institutionalized and regimented?). It has changed dramatically over the centuries to fit the cultures and values of the times. Recent changes are no different - they just don't fit your preconceived biases about what you think marriage should entail

Part of the decline in respect for marriage is merited, based on higher moral principles that contest the bias and discrimination of conservative religious views. Another part is due to the prejudicial legal climate around marriage and especially divorce. Men are more aware of the pitfalls that marriage can bring, even when they marry a partner who is as financially successful as them.

I wish we could like a post more than once!

OP - Sure, if this is what marriage means to you then great. But that doesn't mean changes to it are necessarily bad. And frankly, the "decline" of marriage is due to the drop in stigma in divorce, birth control, and women being able to join the workforce. It wasn't that marriage was so successful prior, people just stayed together because they had to.

And if people think there are more affairs now than in later decades, well I have a bridge to sell you!

Marriage, relationships, are what you make of it. How I structure my marriage, my "success" or "fail" in it has nothing to do with you, impact you, or if we stay married or not.

I do think you are wanting a traditional, religion based institution and are railing at the fact that it is changing.

I applaud the changes and like where things are going. Is it all great? No. But I don't see that people are any worse at personal relationships than they have ever been before. They are just showing it in different ways.

And Robert - women "give up" full control of their sex lives as well in a marriage. This doesn't just impact one gender.

Traditional marriage had nothing to do with love, and had to status, familial advancement, and political/economical reasons. It was a business transaction for the betterment of the two families and the personal happiness of the two individuals didn't really matter. Romantic love was not taken into consideration to marriage until the 1800s really. Prior to that, the Middle Ages for example, had it storied as more illicit love and what was told in stories. It was not assumed to be in a marriage.

So is that better? Depends on who you are.

July 8, 2015

I could have written this post right up to the last sentence. Just change the genders.

However: I still believe in marriage.

I think it sucks that I am now less likely to be able to find a happy one because there is still a stigma from having a failed marriage.

I think many people who are serious about marriage are wary of divorced partners. They have to wonder whose choices actually ended the marriage. Did she give up too easily? Is she fickle? Is she really going to try if the going gets rough or is she comfortable with the notion of divorce now? How will I be compared to her ex? How oych baggage does sage have from the last marriage? Do I have to deal with her ex because of parenting etc.?
What a nightmar
.
I think finding a happy second marriage with aFAITHFUL, SEXUAL MAN be the equivalent of taking out a shotgun, firing and hitting the moon.

Really? You think there is still a stigma about having been divorced? I travel a lot in the US and I have NEVER come across this? Three marriages and divorced again, okay now that is triggering people's red flags.

July 8, 2015

THIS is what the OP is talking about...this pathetic, rude little dig.

You don't want to marry? Stay single.

Only small people bash what they do not personally agree with.

Bashing is one thing, giving warnings another. If marriage wouldn't involve the ability to economically and financially destroy one party it would be completely fine - but there are still many who enter marriage who naively have white-picket-fence in mind, but it's much more than that. Sadly, churches can't read people's minds and kick out the selfish and those who marry with certain motives/plans in mind.

July 8, 2015

Really? You think there is still a stigma about having been divorced? I travel a lot in the US and I have NEVER come across this? Three marriages and divorced again, okay now that is triggering people's red flags.

The US has the worlds highest divorce rate.

I would assume there would be less of a stigma regarding divorce.

July 8, 2015

The US has the worlds highest divorce rate.
I would assume there would be less of a stigma regarding divorce.

Actually the US is #10 checking in at 53%. Belgium tops the list at 71%.

World's 10 Most Divorced Nations - TheRichest

July 8, 2015

Actually the US is #10 checking in at 53%. Belgium tops the list at 71%.

World's 10 Most Divorced Nations - TheRichest

I love when people actually cite facts.

July 8, 2015

I love when people actually cite facts.

Wow. Things have changed significantly.

I remember looking over the divorce stats when I got married.

The US was at the top by a huge margin and India was way down at the bottom.

July 8, 2015

Marriage is an incredibly complex issue. I know what I think about it, but I also know that opinions about it are all over the place and involve myriad factors. So no matter how cut and dried it is for me, it will continue to be complex across the human spectrum, and I acknowledge that.

In one sense, marriage is an institution that was constructed in response to basic human instincts and societal protection needs. It now has a state-sponsored function in many modern countries, and this can only be because these various states have seen it as something worth institutionalizing legally for the benefit of each country.

That being the case, human existence may change to the point where the detriments of marriage as we know it demonstrably outweigh the benefits. I think we are already on the road there, and it is due to both our evolution and our negligence. Marriage should be a good thing, if only because it is an institution that we have created and should be able to nurture and improve. However, I have little faith in present-day humans to make the necessary intellectual adjustments as a whole to recognize obvious shortcomings and rehabilitate the institution of marriage for the better. So I'm very skeptical of the value (or even the sanity) of state-sponsored marriage going forward.

It has gotten to the point of marriage being almost valueless to me as an indicator of love, loyalty, and respect in couples. We who look askance at traditional marriage are not the ones turning it into a farce; rather, it is many of the ones who have entered into it.

July 8, 2015

Got it: Yes, that applies to both sexes. I admit that I still think in terms of men here because I had no idea that so many men cut off their wives. After being at LS that becomes quite obvious.

But in my defense, I have known many men who not only complain about not getting any, they joke about the idea of sex after marriage - sort of like bigfoot, you hear about it but never see it. It has been a complaint among men for as long as I can remember. I never imagined that so many women would have the same complaint.

Dreamingoftigers: I have found that three wonderful years followed by two months of tears is a pretty good deal. So I am no longer expecting more. I am going to spend time with women I adore with no goals other than enjoying the moment. So far that is the best thing I have ever found. I can see women who are way out of my league, find women who are highly compatible and with whom I share great chemistry, and enjoy it while it lasts. My first sb was like a dream, and I can't hope to find that depth and intensity again, but companionship and intimacy and happiness are certainly within reach again. The thing is, the women know it will end, so they view us men in a far different light. It is to me FWB on steroids and it completely changes the game.

People think having a sb is about sex. In part it is true, and a sugar baby is a many splendored thing, it can mean many different things, but in the best of circumstances it is an agreement to just be happy and enjoy each other.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Robert Z

July 8, 2015

Marriage may not survive in its present state but unless everyone is going to live in separate apartment/houses and keep all finances separate which may be very difficult to do when children are involved then there needs to be some legal provision for shared assets, else it can get very messy.

Civil partnerships for opposite sex couples may be the answer there.

Civil partnerships should be for everyone, no exceptions | Charles Keidan and Rebecca Steinfeld | Comment is free | The Guardian

Are all the good ones really married? Not according to new data which shows that more people in England and Wales have never wed than at any time since records began.

In 2014 more than a third of people (33.9%) were not or had never been married, an increase of three percentage points on 10 years ago, according to the Office for National Statistics.
Around one in eight people were living together as a couple but were not married. More men (28%) than women (22%) lived alone and had never married.
Just over half the population (51.2%) were married, a fall from 53.8% 10 years ago. The number of married people rose 700,000 in the last three years but an increase in the overall UK population means the percentage dropped.

July 8, 2015

It's trashed or trivialized because of divorce and the laws that go with it.

That simple.

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Why are people trying to trivialize/trash the Institution of Marriage!

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