Do a lot of women expect this?

[Male]

When meeting a new guy on a date, do a lot of women just expect that they wont have to work as hard as the guy does, to win him over? Guys obviously have to do the approaching, usually do more of the talking to present himself in a proper manner, and show he's not out for just sex, as well as setup plans and times to meet.

 

In other words, most guys looking for a true long term relationship, typically have to have a sort of game plan, and have to sort of "sell themselves" to the woman, proving he's better than the other 10 guys that hit on her last month.

 

But do women rely mostly on their looks and sex appeal? I think a lot of women just expect that they can win the guy over using more of their physical attributes rather than being articulate and providing good conversation.

 

How many women really expect that a guy will look past her physical qualities, and that she will have to "work" at winning him over with her mind? I dont think a lot of women don't even entertain that idea.

 

Again, I'm not bashing women for this. I think its more so just being a product of the society we live in.

[autumnnight]

I am a woman. I am a typical woman. I have many women friends.

 

The answer to your question is no, we do not think we can just coast and be lazy and make the man do all the work.

 

And any man who is idiotic enough to think he can speak for a gender he is NOT and tell you differently is not worth listening to

[elaine567]

When meeting a new guy on a date, do a lot of women just expect that they wont have to work as hard as the guy does, to win him over? Guys obviously have to do the approaching, usually do more of the talking to present himself in a proper manner, and show he's not out for just sex, as well as setup plans and times to meet.

 

In other words, most guys looking for a true long term relationship, typically have to have a sort of game plan, and have to sort of "sell themselves" to the woman, proving he's better than the other 10 guys that hit on her last month.

 

But do women rely mostly on their looks and sex appeal? I think a lot of women just expect that they can win the guy over using more of their physical attributes rather than being articulate and providing good conversation.

 

How many women really expect that a guy will look past her physical qualities, and that she will have to "work" at winning him over with her mind? I dont think a lot of women don't even entertain that idea.

 

Again, I'm not bashing women for this. I think its more so just being a product of the society we live in.

 

Or perhaps an indication of the quality of women you are dating.

[xxoo]

Ideally, both the man and the woman feel like a great catch and enjoy spending time with each other, not trying to impress each other, but discovering each other and being mutually excited about the process.

[MissBee]

Good conversation, intelligence, wit, depth, are things I value in a man and want a man to value in me. I of course want a SO who thinks I am attractive physically and who can't keep his hands off me, but am actually very turned off by men who seem to only be interested in how I look and don't value anything else. While compliments about my looks are nice, I feel more flattered by compliments about my mind and things of that nature and tend to lead with that.

 

So it depends on the woman. Maybe some women have nothing going for them but looks so that's what they lead with, but if a woman is more well-rounded that won't be the case.

 

Also, I don't think of dating as "winning a man over" or him "winning me over"necessarily. It's not some audition where he does a song and dance and I judge it or I do one and he judges it and where we're competing against others. For me, I approach it as both of us trying to find a mutual match where we both feel comfortable, intrigued, are having fun and want similar things. If I'm feeling a guy I hope he is feeling me too and it's normal to do things to impress the other person, and for me, like I said, the things I would do wouldn't be about looks. But ultimately, I want a MUTUAL fit, and if a guy just isn't feeling me as much as I am him and I am feeling like I am having to consciously compete and try to win him over, then no,I leave it be.

Edited July 7, 2015 by MissBee

[Male]

Good conversation, intelligence, wit, depth, are things I value in a man and want a man to value in me. I of course want a SO who thinks I am attractive physically and who can't keep his hands off me, but am actually very turned off by men who seem to only be interested in how I look and don't value anything else. While compliments about my looks are nice, I feel more flattered by compliments about my mind and things of that nature and tend to lead with that.

 

So it depends on the woman. Maybe some women have nothing going for them but looks so that's what they lead with, but if a woman is more well-rounded that won't be the case.

 

Also, I don't think of dating as "winning a man over" or him "winning me over"necessarily. It's not some audition where he does a song and dance and I judge it or I do one and he judges it and where we're competing against others. For me, I approach it as both of us trying to find a mutual match where we both feel comfortable, intrigued, are having fun and want similar things. If I'm feeling a guy I hope he is feeling me too and it's normal to do things to impress the other person, and for me, like I said, the things I would do wouldn't be about looks. But ultimately, I want a MUTUAL fit, and if a guy just isn't feeling me as much as I am him and I am feeling like I am having to consciously compete and try to win him over, then no,I leave it be.

 

Thats a great way to approach it, but sadly I really feel that you and me are in the minority for thinking that way. Especially nowadays with all the dating sites, dating apps, and social media, the pool of people to choose from has become vast. Men do have to "sell themselves" much more than women do. A lot of women that are active in the dating world have so many offers and opportunities. As I said in another post, women can raise their standards nowadays because they have so many options to market themselves. This causes the guy to have to step up his approach(or game) and make himself stand out from the crowd.

 

I think its getting to a point nowadays where guys are losing that chance to sit down with a woman and prove he's a good guy using his personality, manners and charm. Women using any from social media/dating want to be sold on the guy before they meet him. They want him to stand out just by seeing his pics and what he writes in his profile or else shes on to the next.

[autumnnight]

Thats a great way to approach it, but sadly I really feel that you and me are in the minority for thinking that way. Especially nowadays with all the dating sites, dating apps, and social media, the pool of people to choose from has become vast. Men do have to "sell themselves" much more than women do. A lot of women that are active in the dating world have so many offers and opportunities. As I said in another post, women can raise their standards nowadays because they have so many options to market themselves. This causes the guy to have to step up his approach(or game) and make himself stand out from the crowd.

 

I think its getting to a point nowadays where guys are losing that chance to sit down with a woman and prove he's a good guy using his personality, manners and charm. Women using any from social media/dating want to be sold on the guy before they meet him. They want him to stand out just by seeing his pics and what he writes in his profile or else shes on to the next.

 

If that is reality, that is a shame. So do we whine about how we want reality to be, or do we learn to operate within actual reality?

[Woggle]

The question is why do women simply need to be attractive in order to win a man over? Why are us men not setting higher standards for the women we allow in our lives beyond the physical? If we did then the dating scene would even out. If women fell over themselves for guys we would act the same. The players who do have that control over women do act like that. If you have self respect make somebody earn a spot in your life and your time.

[autumnnight]

The question is why do women simply need to be attractive in order to win a man over? Why are us men not setting higher standards for the women we allow in our lives beyond the physical? If we did then the dating scene would even out. If women fell over themselves for guys we would act the same. The players who do have that control over women do act like that. If you have self respect make somebody earn a spot in your life and your time.

 

Because of shallowness and caring too much what other people think. Because people think they are entitled to "the babe" regardless of what is looking back at them in the mirror. Because they are just as shallow as they people they rant about. Because they want a mathematically guaranteed way to snag the hottie that will be the envy of the other dudes.

 

And yes, sadly, in a lot of cases, you can reverse the genders and have the same answers.

 

Character doesn't matter anymore.

[MissBee]

Thats a great way to approach it, but sadly I really feel that you and me are in the minority for thinking that way. Especially nowadays with all the dating sites, dating apps, and social media, the pool of people to choose from has become vast. Men do have to "sell themselves" much more than women do. A lot of women that are active in the dating world have so many offers and opportunities. As I said in another post, women can raise their standards nowadays because they have so many options to market themselves. This causes the guy to have to step up his approach(or game) and make himself stand out from the crowd.

 

I think its getting to a point nowadays where guys are losing that chance to sit down with a woman and prove he's a good guy using his personality, manners and charm. Women using any from social media/dating want to be sold on the guy before they meet him. They want him to stand out just by seeing his pics and what he writes in his profile or else shes on to the next.

 

I don't know what you mean by raise standards (are you talking about looks or actual character traits and other qualities?)

 

What you have described is still this mode of competition and scarcity where you believe men have to do a song and dance and market themselves for a woman to want them more than normal. I don't know about that. My standards for a man I want to be serious about are my standards...and believe me, it's not a dime a dozen and I accept it and thus dating is less a competition but more so looking for that good fit. It's more like shoe shopping or bra shopping. Lots of shoes might look nice, lots of bras might look nice in the store, but not all of them are the right price, not all have the right amount of support, not all are long lasting, some fit strangely...it's not like the shoes and bras are in competition, they exist, they have their branding, some might seem more appealing than others, but it's up to me to decide which one fits me and my needs best.

 

It's not like you're going to an auction or even speed dating which is actually more like a competition. With online dating especially, you make your profile, you send messages and people bite or don't, for men and women. Men might send more messages, but trust me, as a woman who has online dated I would NOT at all classify these men as men who even give a shyt or try hard to market themselves. If I get 50 messages, 40 of them are "Hi" "Hello baby" "Wassup?" " Damn those lips" and things like that and these men have nothing on their profile or the bare minimum. It has not been the case in my experience that most of the men in OLD are just one after the other competing to seem so amazing and I'm just absolutely dazzled by great profile after great profile and can't choose lmaoo...I wish. It's actually a case of, when one decent man messages me, I'm so thrilled, and it's easy to give him a chance because there is nothing he is competing with at all or the bar is pretty low at this point: you can spell, you said more than one word, and you read my profile...LET'S CHAT!

 

I know for lots of things I'll be in the minority and I accept it and just try to focus on finding someone who sees things as I do. I don't see dating as a competition or about marketing. Speed dating, yes, I could see that. Being on a reality show like The Bachelor, sure...but in OLD and everyday life, it's finding ONE man where we both are looking for the same things. That said, I can't care about what other women do in OLD,I don't try to compete or market myself. I make a profile, put up good pictures, as best as possible try to give a glimpse of my personality and what I'm looking for through my profile and hope someone bites and it's mutual. I have never even looked at other women's profiles on OLD...and I find it pointless to sit around imagining what other women are doing and how I can compete. There will ALWAYS be women more beautiful, more intelligent, more everything than I am...so why bother? It's about finding ONE person to date who is just digging me and thinks I am beautiful to them, funny to them, intelligent to them and we both go from there...that's what I mean by it's not a competition.

Edited July 7, 2015 by MissBee

[Male]

If that is reality, that is a shame. So do we whine about how we want reality to be, or do we learn to operate within actual reality?

 

Majority of people will conform to get what they want.

 

I've already been left behind by most women in the dating world because I refuse to conform.

 

The old days, you got a womans number, called her, and set up a time and place for a date. Nowadays that short little process can take almost 2 weeks or more. There are many many men that "allow" the woman to drag it out, and be wishy washy, because he will go along with it to get with her.

 

Majority of women do not want the guy cold calling her on the phone. Society is changing. If you post on here that you like having a new guy call you, than you are in the minority. Believe me. Just getting a woman to meet in person is a long tedious process.

[Male]

I don't know what you mean by raise standards (are you talking about looks or actual character traits and other qualities?)

 

 

 

Before social media/online dating, a woman had a small pool to choose from, depending on how big or small her social circle was. She was limitied to whatever guys crossed her path in person. If most of those guys were a 7 or below, than she obviously had two chooses: Date a 7 or below, or stay single.

 

With all of the tools available now, all the social media, dating sites, and dating apps, a woman has a very large pool to choose from. She now has 50 men messaging her a week. When you increase the variety most normal people will reach for something better(raise their standards). Some will do it consciously, and some will even raise their standards subconsciously without realizing they are doing it.

[autumnnight]

Before social media/online dating, a woman had a small pool to choose from, depending on how big or small her social circle was. She was limitied to whatever guys crossed her path in person. If most of those guys were a 7 or below, than she obviously had two chooses: Date a 7 or below, or stay single.

 

With all of the tools available now, all the social media, dating sites, and dating apps, a woman has a very large pool to choose from. She now has 50 men messaging her a week. When you increase the variety most normal people will reach for something better(raise their standards). Some will do it consciously, and some will even raise their standards subconsciously without realizing they are doing it.

 

What can you do to control women....and if the answer is nothing (and it is), then what can you do to improve YOUR OWN chances within the present reality?

[preraph]

How many women really expect that a guy will look past her physical qualities, and that she will have to "work" at winning him over with her mind? I dont think a lot of women don't even entertain that idea.

 

Again, I'm not bashing women for this. I think its more so just being a product of the society we live in.

 

Not very many since the majority of men seem only to be looking at their physical attributes. But if you want them to know that's not all that's important to you, then you need to tell them that intelligence and whatever else you prize is more important -- and then you need to also not only go out with beautiful women and you'll find those not in the top 10 percent that nearly all guys chase will be more intellect-driven because they have not been able to just rely on their looks. So don't date women who clearly can just get by on their looks and you won't run into this problem nearly as much.

[Male]

What can you do to control women....and if the answer is nothing (and it is), then what can you do to improve YOUR OWN chances within the present reality?

 

I was accepted by women before all this social media/internet craze began, so theres no reason to change myself to adapt and be accepted now.

 

If women dont like me than I'll gladly remain single.

[Imajerk17]

I think too many guys on here psyche themselves out with how hard dating is supposed to be for their gender, and how "unfair" it all seems.

 

Here is the thing though: Either she is interested in you or she is not, just as either you are interested in her or you are not. This has little to do with any elaborate "game plan" per se, and more to do with whether she is drawn to your masculine energy and whether you like her feminine energy, and whether the two of you click during conversation.

 

Yes, we as guys do have to plan and pay. But it doesn't have to be much. I have gone on amazing dates which we basically ice cream and then people-watching and cuddling on a park bench. Easy as pie. The conversation and the masculine-feminine polarity was what made the date so great.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Imajerk17

[MissBee]

Before social media/online dating, a woman had a small pool to choose from, depending on how big or small her social circle was. She was limitied to whatever guys crossed her path in person. If most of those guys were a 7 or below, than she obviously had two chooses: Date a 7 or below, or stay single.

 

With all of the tools available now, all the social media, dating sites, and dating apps, a woman has a very large pool to choose from. She now has 50 men messaging her a week. When you increase the variety most normal people will reach for something better(raise their standards). Some will do it consciously, and some will even raise their standards subconsciously without realizing they are doing it.

 

So when you say 7 or below, what is this number referring to is what I am asking? A 7 in looks, character, personality, social status, what? For me for example, I don't rate men on a number's scale of looks and I prioritize whether he is a good match for me in lots of other ways so can't relate to that. Further, how can you possibly control how good looking the people around you are lol. Certainly some people around you will be good looking and some won't be. I can tell you, I have NOT found that there are more good looking men online....it's the same. On OKC for example when you're flipping through that picture thing, I find that it's like real life, I see some who are instantly good looking to me and many more who are not, which matches real life.

 

My standards are the same whether I online date or not. I don't look for different things when I'm online versus off.And my standards go beyond if a man is a 7 , 8, 5 or .5 in looks and would never date a man who his criteria for a woman is some fictitious number about looks...like dude come on, in junior high the guys would play those rating games, but I would hope a grown ass man has more evolved criteria for the woman he might want to marry and have kids with (which is the kind of man I'm looking for).

 

Social media doesn't change my standards, what influences what I want in a man are my life experiences and my life position. What I want in a man is much more influenced by my education level, my own social status, my values, my lifestyle etc...those things are what make me decide what kind of man I need/want. Then I go online and look for that.

 

You seem to be arguing that online dating gives you a larger pool and thus more options. However, larger pool doesn't mean more options depending on your standards, which is what I explained earlier. If I go out today I will likely not meet 20 men for example. With online dating, I might get messaged by 20 men though. However, those 20 men who message me may be NOTHING AT ALL that I'm looking for. That's been my experience. So great, larger pool, but for me it's just a larger pool of non-matches and the numbers don't increase the match for me. I have OLD on and off for years and in total might have gotten over a thousand messages and literally I have had TWO boyfriends from OLD, 3 FWB, maybe 3 folks I went out with more than once and then many many more that I didn't see but one time. My standards remained the same, they just didn't fit it.

 

Larger pool does not mean more matches or that your standards change. It is the TYPE of pool that matters and your particular standards that matter. For example, I value ambition and education, I value a man who is emotionally mature and available, who is looking for something long term, who enjoys a similar lifestyle to mine, someone I'm attracted to, can talk to, the list goes on. When I go online, I am messaged by all kinds of men and most do not fit this standard. It's actually very annoying that men who are filtered out for age, location, education etc all still manage to message me when they are nothing that I am looking for. Larger pool doesn't increase quality either, it can also mean you're now experiencing an influx of men you don't want and in real life because of your social circle would never meet, like you said.

 

For example, I went to college and am now in graduate school. Because of that, pretty much ALL my friends are women and men who at minimum went to college. But most of my friends are professionals with advanced degrees, simply because that is who I went to school with and met and knew and that's my social circle. I don't really have any friends in real life who only have a HS diploma. This wasn't a choice I made to avoid people with HS diplomas only, it just happened that way because of how my life played out. Your social life, education, socioeconomic status etc influence your standards and what is your normal and all that and people generally date people who fit their world, even with OLD, you still look for someone who fits your world (if you are serious and not just looking for a shag).

 

Now when I get online, I can tell you, MOST of the men who message me on their profile it says their highest education is high school. Like I said, if for example I get 50 messages, 40 of those men are men I would likely not ever meet in real life because we're not in the same social circle. It's not a magical influx of greater quality where now I have so much better to choose from or anything, it's more men numbers wise yes, but the pool now includes men I have little in common with and would not meet in real life. The way you've framed it makes it seem like people increase their standards because they find better people now that the pool increases but the flip side is that, larger pool also includes people you wouldn't meet and don't have an interest in.

 

If a woman for example was from an elite family where all her friends are the children of Fortune 500 CEOS, that is her pool for friendships and dating and she will have a very particular social world. If she gets online, her pool will be expanded to Joe the plumber, Mike the teacher, Tom the guy in mom's basement, Sam the cab driver, John the doctor, Tim the pilot, Rick the mooch...she will now meet ALL kinds of men and likely more than she normally would but they wouldn't necessarily be better or good matches. It would be an increased number of all kinds of men...but many of them would not be a match. And say if she were looking to meet a guy who understood her world, she would have a hard time as MAJORITY of them would not be that and she'd still have to sift through this new larger pool of non-matches. This is what I mean by it's not just a numbers game but about the TYPE of pool you've now opened yourself up to and what your existing standards are.

 

BTW I'm not saying one's job or socioeconomic status makes you better quality or not, I'm just saying that whatever standards you have for dating are tied to your own social life, education, values etc and that's what influences who you go out looking for on or offline and it's not that you have zero standards and only start having some based on getting online. After all, you have filters on OLD to help you to find people based on your pre-existing standards and preferences.

Edited July 7, 2015 by MissBee

[Gloria25]

Well maybe this thread is making me realize that "neither" guys/gals are putting any effort into dating now a days, cuz IMO, it's men who are not putting in any effort.

 

I think it's a combo of lack of social training/rearing, lazy, and technology.

 

Like some recent experiences I had on OLD...

 

-I email dude. Tell him I like his profile and would like to get to know him better. Lemme know if he can see my profile/pics since I now added him as a fav. Here's my personal email. And you know what his email in response to me was? "Is this X?" So, I responded, "Yes, this is X from the dating site"...And guess what his response was? "This is Y from the dating website"

 

Ok? Do you see how dry that email exchange was - even though I initiated the email and said so much and asked him stuff like lemme know if you can see my profile/pics?

 

I didn't even bother to respond.

 

-Now, one a while back? We have a little email back and forth, so I say "hey, how 'bout we meet up for coffee or drinks?"...His response "ok". Hello, he didn't even bother to say a time/date/location...So, I try to work with him and suggest X place and still, he didn't respond with a date/time. So I said, well think about it and I'll ttyl....That's the last I heard of him and I never tried contacting him again.

 

-Recently. Dude responds to my email, says he's interested, but didn't put his name (even a fake one, an initial for God's sake) and says he'll send me some pics. Ok, why didn't you just send me the pics now? So, again, I am trying to work with dude...I responded and was like "cool" and sent him some pics of me and gave him my email outside of the dating site.

 

-Oh, oh, and some other dude recently. He asked me if I could meet him at some bar only after he and I exchanged one measily email. I was like "I'm not Dominos...I'm not hopping in my car to drive across town to meet someone I barely know" and he just didn't get my point. He literally thought I'm supposed to come to "service" him? Gimmie a break

 

I could go on and on...but get my drift? Guys aren't even meeting us halfway...

 

Now, it could also be lack of interest - cuz when I'm clicking with a dude, conversation flows effortlessly. I remember my 1st date with my FWB. I almost didn't go cuz I was getting cold feet. But when I met him and we clicked, the convo was so great that although I ate beforehand so I could limit our first meet to drinks only, I was like "ok" when he said he was ordering food and on other dates when a guy would pull that - I wished him a nice evening and would leave.

 

My recent crush is a good example of how you need to reciprocate for it to go well. I had days we'd cross paths and I say something and he'd smile or say something back. Short, sweet and allowed me to keep the convo going...But, there's times that I'm talking to him and it's like I'm talking to myself. One time I wished him a Happy NY and was asking him how things were going and he didn't respond...But as I'm walking off (cuz hello, I'm not gonna stand there and talk to myself) he blurts out "Happy NY" and I'm like thinking to myself "did dude have a delay switch in his head!?! I his reply was due like 2 min ago!!!" So, thanks to him not even responding to simple convo - I don't even try to chat him up anymore...So, I guess he gotten what he wanted - which was to tell me bugg off. But then after that, he still stares, mirrors, etc...so I'm confused. Was he nervous? Does he not know how to carry a convo with a woman he's attracted to?

 

So, using my recent crush as an example, if you can't/won't carry decent convo/communication with a woman, she's gonna perceive it as lack of interest and she's gonna respond with similar lack of interest/effort.

[No Limit]

How many women really expect that a guy will look past her physical qualities, and that she will have to "work" at winning him over with her mind?

 

I don't expect it anymore, and it has never happened so far - but considering my age that's fine. I even have these 3 tops that I consider 'man-bait' because they enhance the look of my breasts. Of course, when dressed like this I don't expect someone with more in mind than sex; however, I've also never thought of having to "win someone over" to be honest. I mean, why would I have to convince someone to like me? Maybe we're compatible, maybe not, why so serious? Let's just talk a little and see where it goes. But please, spare me textless exchange of smilies.