Just asking............. (updated)

[autumnnight]

It's basically hair-splitting, this whole idea of "It was wrong to cheat with a married man but I have nothing to do with his wife's hurt." Please, let's be honest. That is like shooting someone and saying "I didn't kill them, the bullet did."

[eye of the storm]

I used to think like Rose, not my vows not my issue. But then eventually I changed my mind.

 

I know for a fact if I had not started sleeping with my MM he would have moved on and picked someone else. I wasn't the first one he cheated on his BS with, and I will not be the last one.

 

When we got together, I justified my doing so by saying if not me then someone else. I was angry and hurt by my ExH and I acted out foolishly. then it just became convenient and then feelings developed. But I was always aware that I was acting in concert with him to hurt his BS.

 

Just like someone who knowingly accepts stolen goods or drives the get away car, I was an accessory to the crime. I didn't steal the goods, I didn't betray my vows, but I knowingly participated in it. And that makes me partly responsible for it. IMHO

[RoseVille]

Without your involvement there was no betrayal, no affair. By stepping into the ring you took on your half of all the responsibility. Your consent was a crucial component of the betrayal to his wife, his family, his friends, until then it was all just fantasy. You are now part of his cover up, his ongoing deception, you own this part forever and ever and ever. You should get counselling for yourself, just my opinion, you deserve to be happy too.

 

It's simple. I don't accept EQUAL responsibility for the pain/damage to the wife. Not half. And logically, I just don't see how that's even possible for a stranger to own half the responsibility for the damage done to a marriage by a spouse.

 

And to describe me as part of his cover up is a fallacy. Everyone in my life knows about the A. And should anyone ever ask me - W included - I'd tell them.

 

I already have a therapist. Thanks.

[RoseVille]

I used to think like Rose, not my vows not my issue. But then eventually I changed my mind.

 

I know for a fact if I had not started sleeping with my MM he would have moved on and picked someone else. I wasn't the first one he cheated on his BS with, and I will not be the last one.

 

When we got together, I justified my doing so by saying if not me then someone else. I was angry and hurt by my ExH and I acted out foolishly. then it just became convenient and then feelings developed. But I was always aware that I was acting in concert with him to hurt his BS.

 

Just like someone who knowingly accepts stolen goods or drives the get away car, I was an accessory to the crime. I didn't steal the goods, I didn't betray my vows, but I knowingly participated in it. And that makes me partly responsible for it. IMHO

 

Partly responsible, yes.

 

Just not half. Not equal. Not a malicious, selfish home wrecker without any regard or sympathy or empathy.

 

Morality isn't black and white.

[RoseVille]

It's basically hair-splitting, this whole idea of "It was wrong to cheat with a married man but I have nothing to do with his wife's hurt." Please, let's be honest. That is like shooting someone and saying "I didn't kill them, the bullet did."

 

No, it's like being the store where the person purchased the gun to shoot.

[sandylee1]

It's basically hair-splitting, this whole idea of "It was wrong to cheat with a married man but I have nothing to do with his wife's hurt." Please, let's be honest. That is like shooting someone and saying "I didn't kill them, the bullet did."

 

I guess it's hard to accept your direct actions have or could play any part in hurtin/devastating the lives of another person and their children.

 

Because when you say it like that , you look bad and NOBODY wants to look bad. It's protection and self preservation.

 

Because you don't know somebody, it doesn't mean you should be part of destroying their marriage.

 

I remember working in a law firm years ago and a client saying he'd never steal from a single independent store , but he felt no guilt about stealing from large chain stores . You can try and justify almost anything to not make yourself look like the bad guy.

[MJJean]

Without your involvement there was no betrayal, no affair. By stepping into the ring you took on your half of all the responsibility. Your consent was a crucial component of the betrayal to his wife, his family, his friends, until then it was all just fantasy. You are now part of his cover up, his ongoing deception, you own this part forever and ever and ever. You should get counselling for yourself, just my opinion, you deserve to be happy too.

 

Yes!

 

 

 

Roseville, it doesn't matter if it would have been someone else. It was YOU who willingly entered into an affair with a married man and did so knowing his wife and any children would be hurt by the WH's relationship with you. Even if the BS never finds/found out, the marital relationship changes when one is in an affair and there is often a confused and hurt spouse trying desperately to figure out why. YOU made a choice that caused harm to another person. Period.

 

I've noticed, Rose, you keep repeating you don't believe in marriage. How does that work, exactly? I can say that I don't believe in aliens because I have never seen sufficient proof that aliens exist and that would be perfectly rational. Since marriage can be proven without a shadow of a doubt to exist, how can you say you don't believe in it with a straight face? Is that a tool you use to stay in denial about your part in the damage done to the MM's marriage?

 

 

the idea that if it wasn't one particular ow it would be another doesn't say much for the mm or the affair relationship either.

 

I know! I thought that, too. "Oh, if that lying, cheating, honorless, selfish bastard wasn't using me as a semen depository, he'd just be using someone else..."

[Tread Carefully]

I know! I thought that, too. "Oh, if that lying, cheating, honorless, selfish bastard wasn't using me as a semen depository, he'd just be using someone else..."

 

That was harsh, uncool and not fair. I highly doubt most OW think of themselves as sperm depositories. Feelings are almost always involved..on both sides. Again, not cool.

[Sassy Girl]

Rose, just because you "don't believe" in marriage that doesn't give you the right to disrespect other people's marriage.

 

That being said, what have you actually learnt through this experience?

 

I'm seeing you as a prime candidate to enter a relationship with another married man based on your posts here. No empathy for the BS, only sorry you picked such a lousy human being as a partner and a reluctance to take accountability for your own part. Half, less than half - who cares?. The fact you made choices that would hurt someone else is enough, isn't it? Or maybe not. If memory serves there was an EA with a married man at some other stage in your life wasn't there?

 

For a smart lady you seem to be turning ourself in knots trying to remove your actions from their consequences. Sorry- it just doesn't work like that.

[RoseVille]

I guess it's hard to accept your direct actions have or could play any part in hurtin/devastating the lives of another person and their children.

 

Because when you say it like that , you look bad and NOBODY wants to look bad. It's protection and self preservation.

 

Because you don't know somebody, it doesn't mean you should be part of destroying their marriage.

 

I remember working in a law firm years ago and a client saying he'd never steal from a single independent store , but he felt no guilt about stealing from large chain stores . You can try and justify almost anything to not make yourself look like the bad guy.

 

My actions are NOT direct. His are.

[RoseVille]

That was harsh, uncool and not fair. I highly doubt most OW think of themselves as sperm depositories. Feelings are almost always involved..on both sides. Again, not cool.

 

Not cool to describe it in such a vulgar fashion, but the statement that a MM doesn't value his OW all that much is kinda true. He doesn't value his wife either.

 

Sassy, I'm not responding because I am choosing not to see your posts.

[elaine567]

If A and B have a business partnership, and B decides to collude with C to defraud A and steal his money, I doubt any judge will be prosecuting only B and sending him to jail.

C does not get a "Get out of jail free" card, just because he had nothing to do with the original partnership.

He has to accept responsibility for his part in the crime committed too.

[Hope Shimmers]

This is not a legal matter; it's an ethical one.

 

I am not sure why everyone is harping on this. Rose's point was that she is not as responsible for the BS's pain as her husband is. I don't know who would disagree with that - he is the one who made vows to her and owes her faithfulness. She may be complicit as an accomplice, but HE is the one who betrayed her.

 

I think you are all just reacting to her professional tone when she responds, because you are not hearing remorse in her posts. But she is not saying that she doesn't feel responsibility for her role, unless I am misreading.

[MJJean]

That was harsh, uncool and not fair. I highly doubt most OW think of themselves as sperm depositories. Feelings are almost always involved..on both sides. Again, not cool.

 

Having been a WW, an OW, and a BS, I stand by my view. Welcome to life. The world and the people in it are often harsh, uncool, and unfair.

 

Does the OW usually think of herself as a semen depository? No. Do other people see her that way? Yup. Up to and often including the MM.

 

I'd love to hear how you know that feelings are "almost always" involved on both sides. There is a distinct difference between what someone will say in order to separate another person from their underwear and what they actually feel for that person. Frankly, if the WS had actual caring and basic human type respectful feelings for their AP's, they wouldn't be AP's.

 

Not to mention, feelings don't change reality. Reality being the married person is very much legally, financially, socially, and morally committed to someone else. Considering the magnitude of that commitment, how much can an AP really mean? Truthfully, not a whole lot. AP's are expendable and will be expended the second the WS's lifestyle or primary relationship is threatened.

 

To answer the OP's question..

 

I had one affair with a MM..that I know of. I felt bad about it and even worse because the BW was actually a friend of mine.

 

Long story short, I hadn't talked to them in a while and their marriage was in trouble last I knew. He'd cheated a few times and she was having a hard time coping with that and his general irresponsibility. We were young, in our early 20's, and stupid. He came to visit after months, said the marriage was over, we had some drinks and sex, and I found out a few days later that he lied.

 

I never intended to cause someone's wife hurt. I especially never wanted to hurt an old friend even though we'd drifted apart. So, I went to see her and I told her what happened. Then I apologized. We're still friends 16 years later. She divorced him and I got to serve him the papers. She's happily remarried. He has been married and divorced two more times. Wanna guess why?

[Sassy Girl]

Not cool to describe it in such a vulgar fashion, but the statement that a MM doesn't value his OW all that much is kinda true. He doesn't value his wife either.

 

Sassy, I'm not responding because I am choosing not to see your posts.

 

Lol... Hit a nerve, huh? Nothing said that others haven't told you, but that's cool. No skin off my nose.

[MJJean]

Not cool to describe it in such a vulgar fashion, but the statement that a MM doesn't value his OW all that much is kinda true. He doesn't value his wife either.

 

Sassy, I'm not responding because I am choosing not to see your posts.

 

The bolded is true, as well.

 

If a married person values their spouse, they do nothing to deliberately endanger their spouses overall physical, mental, emotional, social and financial well-being.

 

If a married person values someone they are not married to, they do not enter into an affair with that person in order to not expose them to the possible physical, mental, emotional, social, and legal consequences of an affair.

[sandylee1]

Rose, just because you "don't believe" in marriage that doesn't give you the right to disrespect other people's marriage.

 

That being said, what have you actually learnt through this experience?

 

I'm seeing you as a prime candidate to enter a relationship with another married man based on your posts here. No empathy for the BS, only sorry you picked such a lousy human being as a partner and a reluctance to take accountability for your own part.

 

I totally agree with you Sassy. I said something similar up thread.

 

The only regret many OW have is what THEY'VE suffered when things aren't going well or when they get dumped or general dynamics of being in an affair.

 

There's no thought for the wife or kids.

 

Of course an OW plays a part in wrecking a home if they split up as a result of the affair. Failure to recognise this is simply denial. If you're gonna do it go ahead, but accept that you will be seen as a homewrecker.

 

Homewrecker definition = Someone who knows that the person they are involved with is married, and continues to have an affair with them anyway, causing the destruction of a marriage and family, hence, a " home" wrecker.

[Bittersweetie]

Just wanted to point out...this isn't Rose's thread...it's Gutted's.

 

As eyeofthestorm pointed out, it took a while to get to the point where I could clearly look at all of the collateral damage of my A and own my part in it. At first, heck no, the BS wasn't my problem. That was his marriage, his problem.

 

It took time for me to see that while he made his own choices, I made my own too, and one of those choices was to purposely disrespect someone else's marriage. Even if that marriage was crap, I disrespected it. My own marriage too.

 

Going back to Gutted's original question...do APs believe what MM tell them?

 

I did, because at that time, I thought MM was the perfect person. I refused to see his faults, and did mental gymnastics to avoid any kind of reality. Because everything was about me, and our relationship, and how I felt.

[eye of the storm]

As to the original question ... My MM never lied to get me into an A. He was honest that he was M and was not planning on leaving his W. I think it was just timing. He was between As and I was going thru a self destructive stage.

 

I had a lot of MM ask me out and they all tried the poor me bad wife lines. Those guys made me angry. And none succeeded. This MM is my last MM. Single guys from now on.

 

I hope gutted finds peace

[Tread Carefully]

Having been a WW, an OW, and a BS, I stand by my view. Welcome to life. The world and the people in it are often harsh, uncool, and unfair.

 

Does the OW usually think of herself as a semen depository? No. Do other people see her that way? Yup. Up to and often including the MM.

 

I'd love to hear how you know that feelings are "almost always" involved on both sides. There is a distinct difference between what someone will say in order to separate another person from their underwear and what they actually feel for that person. Frankly, if the WS had actual caring and basic human type respectful feelings for their AP's, they wouldn't be AP's.

 

Not to mention, feelings don't change reality. Reality being the married person is very much legally, financially, socially, and morally committed to someone else. Considering the magnitude of that commitment, how much can an AP really mean? Truthfully, not a whole lot. AP's are expendable and will be expended the second the WS's lifestyle or primary relationship is threatened.

 

To answer the OP's question..

 

I had one affair with a MM..that I know of. I felt bad about it and even worse because the BW was actually a friend of mine.

 

Long story short, I hadn't talked to them in a while and their marriage was in trouble last I knew. He'd cheated a few times and she was having a hard time coping with that and his general irresponsibility. We were young, in our early 20's, and stupid. He came to visit after months, said the marriage was over, we had some drinks and sex, and I found out a few days later that he lied.

 

I never intended to cause someone's wife hurt. I especially never wanted to hurt an old friend even though we'd drifted apart. So, I went to see her and I told her what happened. Then I apologized. We're still friends 16 years later. She divorced him and I got to serve him the papers. She's happily remarried. He has been married and divorced two more times. Wanna guess why?

 

I stand by what I said as well. I am a BS. My xH had lots of feelings for the OW. I have also known lots of people who were/are in affairs, some of them include both the married persons and their AP's. It's true that most serial cheaters don't give a crap about the OW. I'm not saying "all" mm/mw have feelings for the AP's but certainly a lot of them do. EA's most definitely involve feelings.

 

I'm sorry that I angered you by calling you out on the sperm depository comment. This is supposed to be a place of support and sharing. The real world, as you stated, is harsh enough. It doesn't need to be that way in here.

 

I'm also sorry for the hurt and pain that you've been through. By calling OW sd's you labeled your own self that way and that's just not right. You are a woman who took some chances and made some mistakes. You are much, much better than just a depository. So are many other's.

[ascendotum]

...

It would be a perfect world if everyone adhered to the Golden Rule of 'do unto others.' Unfortunately, we don't see that in our imperfect world.

 

As you say nice theory, except when people are out to get what they want or believe their situation is special. I was reading a woman's magazine while waiting at doctor/dentist one time and there was an article titled something like the '10 relationship s you should have by 30'. The WTF one that stood out for me was the 'an affair with a married man'. I wondered if the female journalists, editors, publication owners would be so understanding some years down the road when their husband has an affair with some young chippy. Will they just wave it off as just some young lass living out her sexual relationship tick off list, just like she did the same thing at her age. I doubt it.

[gettingstronger]

As you say nice theory, except when people are out to get what they want or believe their situation is special. I was reading a woman's magazine while waiting at doctor/dentist one time and there was an article titled something like the '10 relationship s you should have by 30'. The WTF one that stood out for me was the 'an affair with a married man'. I wondered if the female journalists, editors, publication owners would be so understanding some years down the road when their husband has an affair with some young chippy. Will they just wave it off as just some young lass living out her sexual relationship tick off list, just like she did the same thing at her age. I doubt it.

 

 

And there is a huge issue I have- affairs are so many times romanticized in the movies, TV and media- its really sad because the real effects on those involved are far from wonderful-

[ascendotum]

And there is a huge issue I have- affairs are so many times romanticized in the movies, TV and media- its really sad because the real effects on those involved are far from wonderful-

Where I live there was a tv series involving a young woman and her lovelorn adventures and most of the first season was her having an affair with a handsome doctor. The show was a hit and at work a lot of the women in my section use to talk about it and it seemed like every single one were sympathetic to her (the OW) not getting enough from the doctor and no one gave a stuff about the wife. I didn't watch much of the show, but for sure it would have been scripted to elicit that sort of empathy for the pretty but unlucky in love star. Times have changed with the media and how OW are portrayed. Once viewed as home wreckers, but not really so much anymore (I'm certainly not cheering on the married guy getting a double helping either)

Edited June 24, 2015 by ascendotum

[i am gutted]

As to the original question ... My MM never lied to get me into an A. He was honest that he was M and was not planning on leaving his W. I think it was just timing. He was between As and I was going thru a self destructive stage.

 

I had a lot of MM ask me out and they all tried the poor me bad wife lines. Those guys made me angry. And none succeeded. This MM is my last MM. Single guys from now on.

 

I hope gutted finds peace

 

 

sadly, this is what I worry or obsess about..........I did the best I could. Its the thought of him painting me out to be crap....

I know that it is no good thinking like that but its just something that has bothered me from time to time. The OW only hears about the WH views......they will never know the BS side.

[i am gutted]

Having been a WW, an OW, and a BS, I stand by my view. Welcome to life. The world and the people in it are often harsh, uncool, and unfair.

 

Does the OW usually think of herself as a semen depository? No. Do other people see her that way? Yup. Up to and often including the MM.

 

I'd love to hear how you know that feelings are "almost always" involved on both sides. There is a distinct difference between what someone will say in order to separate another person from their underwear and what they actually feel for that person. Frankly, if the WS had actual caring and basic human type respectful feelings for their AP's, they wouldn't be AP's.

 

Not to mention, feelings don't change reality. Reality being the married person is very much legally, financially, socially, and morally committed to someone else. Considering the magnitude of that commitment, how much can an AP really mean? Truthfully, not a whole lot. AP's are expendable and will be expended the second the WS's lifestyle or primary relationship is threatened.

 

To answer the OP's question..

 

I had one affair with a MM..that I know of. I felt bad about it and even worse because the BW was actually a friend of mine.

 

Long story short, I hadn't talked to them in a while and their marriage was in trouble last I knew. He'd cheated a few times and she was having a hard time coping with that and his general irresponsibility. We were young, in our early 20's, and stupid. He came to visit after months, said the marriage was over, we had some drinks and sex, and I found out a few days later that he lied.

 

I never intended to cause someone's wife hurt. I especially never wanted to hurt an old friend even though we'd drifted apart. So, I went to see her and I told her what happened. Then I apologized. We're still friends 16 years later. She divorced him and I got to serve him the papers. She's happily remarried. He has been married and divorced two more times. Wanna guess why?

 

To be straight - I blame my exH 100% for his actions.........but what I was getting at was - did the OW give a toss about the fact that he was married. Obviously not ae considering they carried on.

 

 

Yes I would hope that some OW would feel bad about it but realistically I suppose that the majority of them don't care about the fallout it causes in broken families........