Got an international perspective yesterday on "American women".

[impatiently_patient]

It's apparent that you're hurt and lonely. I'm sorry. I know how it feels. I feel that way a lot of times now. But I think if you can get to the point that you're entirely self-reliant and the prospect of meeting a woman and hitting it off or meeting a woman and things going nowhere doesn't faze you, then women will look at you differently

 

Of course. I deserve nothing from no particular individual woman. I do believe, that in a Maslowian sense of things, I deserve to find love and to love another within the bigger scope of things. I can't be so awful that in a city of 4.2 million people, that I won't have some options more often than once a year, if that.

 

Regardless of what my friend said, I've found the appreciation for the opposite sex (amongst heterosexuals, of course) to be quite asymmetric.

[impatiently_patient]

Have you considered the possibility that your lack of success with women might be because of you in particular, rather than women in general?

 

That is a possibility, you know.

 

Of course (though I did say most of my male friends bump up against this wall a good bit as well). I posted some threads for suggestions on how to fix any flaws that might be hindering me and my profiles. No one wanted to me much help at all and the threads tumbled despite bumping them.

 

I really don't know what I'm doing so wrong. I've gone to a few counselors and life coaches, who've in turn tried to help me communicate myself better. I've asked friends and exes to give me input. Most of them don't get it. I'm just one of those "sounds good on paper" guys that women don't look at for whatever reason.

 

 

Admittedly, one of my big struggles is getting myself in front of the right types of women. I get that I'm not mainstream appeal, but there's a lot of guys rocking my particular mantle who are doing fine in the dating department.

[impatiently_patient]

And if your friend had said that American women were sweet but clever, ruthless negotiators, and fantastic conversationalists* would you have posted this thread? Of course not.

 

Actually, I might very well have. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

 

 

I'm sincerely sorry you aren't having luck with online dating. It's difficult for most people, and I empathize with being frustrated, but your own lack of success is not proof that we're "generally awful to interact with". I'd add that women can usually tell when a guy has these sorts of opinions, and that may be hurting you. No one ever rejected a man for being too open-minded or optimistic.

 

Well, I'd love to change my experience so I can change my perception. Let me know how exactly I'd go about that. Seriously. I'd love to share the information with my friends who are just simply trying to date and getting ignored and swatted down left-and-right as well. Like I said, I don't WANT to feel this way, but negative feedback of the experience seems to push towards that end. I think there are a lot of great women out there. I just don't what their beef is with a lot of the men I know. That's all I'm saying.

[Satu]

Mental and emotional health rests on two fundamentals:

 

1. The acceptance of reality as it actually is.

 

2. Successful adaptation to that reality.

 

Your reality as I understand it, is that you have not been able to attract a mate, or sexual partner(s) that satisfy your emotional needs. So you need to accept that as your current reality, without projecting the responsibility for your position onto 'American women in general,' or anybody else.

 

Then you would need to adapt to that by finding ways of making being single more enjoyable, or by finding ways of being a more appealing prospect for women who are looking for a man.

 

Thats all there is to it, really.

 

Good luck.

[SycamoreCircle]

How would you describe a woman that is a perfect match for you? What would she be like?

[impatiently_patient]

How would you describe a woman that is a perfect match for you? What would she be like?

 

Not seeking "perfect" per se, but some things to get me in the ballpark:

 

Someone near or at the same place in life that I am: Career on track, or at least working towards having some sort of professional goals (and that's not code for "making a bunch of money", getting by and being on track is acceptable).

 

Someone who has desire and means to travel intermittently for the coming years. Someone who has a good balance of responsibility and spontaneity to get out and experiment and experience life, be it a night at the art walk, a day trip up north, or a week and a half in Northern Europe.

 

Someone who appreciates the creative and expressive sides of life: music, design, art, architecture, film, performance, comedy, cuisine, etc.

 

Someone reasonably intelligent, progressive, open minded, and a bit worldly/hip to things.

 

Someone probably on the secular end of the spectrum, or at least less traditionalist religion-wise.

 

Someone feminine and a bit edgy. This usually manifests in a more "alternative/indie/muso" archetype. I have no hard constraints on this, but these are the types of women who tend to appreciate me more.

Edited June 22, 2015 by impatiently_patient

[SycamoreCircle]

That's a great list. I'll take one of those, too.

 

Now, do you feel living where you do that you come across a lot of women that could potentially fit that outline? Or would it be more of a long shot?

 

I've never been to Arizona. I do hear that the open spaces seem to attract a more spiritual-minded type. I don't know it that's true or not.

[jen1447]

Admittedly, one of my big struggles is getting myself in front of the right types of women. I get that I'm not mainstream appeal, but there's a lot of guys rocking my particular mantle who are doing fine in the dating department.

I was actually going to ask about that, OP. Being in music and traveling, I assume you spend a lot of time at shows and clubs and music festivals and stuff like that? In my experience the women you find there do tend to be kinda vapid, probably in large part due to drugs and alcohol. I guess that wouldn't account for online dating but it could be that otherwise you're shopping at the wrong store.

[impatiently_patient]

That's a great list. I'll take one of those, too.

 

Now, do you feel living where you do that you come across a lot of women that could potentially fit that outline? Or would it be more of a long shot?

 

I've never been to Arizona. I do hear that the open spaces seem to attract a more spiritual-minded type. I don't know it that's true or not.

 

There are some artsy-spiritual pockets outside the metro areas, places like Sedona, Jerome, Prescott, Bisbee... but it's more of a "hippie vibe" (for lack of a better word) and older type of non-traditionalist. Definitely not my ilk. I align myself more with the metropolitan "secular gentry" type if you will which we have pockets of around areas like Downtown, Roosevelt Row, Arcadia, the campus, etc. Modern/underground art, music, progressive views, less structured lifestyles. It's a big and growing community. We might be the next big "hip" town on the block thanks to the low cost of living and support for lifestyle.

 

The burbs are a mix of moderates and conservatives, generally, Christian traditionalists from fleeting to devout. Then you've got big sprawls of working class, barrios. It's a melting pot, for sure. It's very disparate. You have to know where to to go to find your fit. It's very difficult and time consuming sometimes.

[JJCaliGirl]

Not seeking "perfect" per se, but some things to get me in the ballpark:

 

Someone near or at the same place in life that I am: Career on track, or at least working towards having some sort of professional goals (and that's not code for "making a bunch of money", getting by and being on track is acceptable).

 

Someone who has desire and means to travel intermittently for the coming years. Someone who has a good balance of responsibility and spontaneity to get out and experiment and experience life, be it a night at the art walk, a day trip up north, or a week and a half in Northern Europe.

 

Someone who appreciates the creative and expressive sides of life: music, design, art, architecture, film, performance, comedy, cuisine, etc.

 

Someone reasonably intelligent, progressive, open minded, and a bit worldly/hip to things.

 

Someone probably on the secular end of the spectrum, or at least less traditionalist religion-wise.

 

Someone feminine and a bit edgy. This usually manifests in a more "alternative/indie/muso" archetype. I have no hard constraints on this, but these are the types of women who tend to appreciate me more.

 

If I was in Phoenix and saw your profile, I would press the like or wink button. I would hope you like sports as well or at least I could make you like sports! You have a beard which is a major plus in my department!

 

In all seriousness, I've lived on the east coast, west coast, and now in the middle. I do think there are parts of the US where one's physical appearance holds precedence over personality which can make others think that the US is superficial. Actually, one of my male east coast friends who moved to the west coast thought California women (NorCal) were slobs compared to the women in NYC.

 

I like to think I'm down to earth and not superficial at all. I've been called a nerdy beautiful dork. I don't hold much value in one's physical appearance and think intelligence and personality are key. Of course, being physically attracted to a person is also important, but I'm not looking for a 6 pack.

 

Note, I do have an issue with men who think athletic pants and a Hanes t-shirt are acceptable date clothing, but that's a different thread!

[Halcyon]

Maybe American women are superficial to those American men who are bad lovers I keep hearing about? I'm from the same city as your friend and the American women I've dated have been lovely.

 

That's my 'international perspective' which carries little if no weight on anything.

[Woggle]

Her is partly right but American men are no better. It is part of the overall decline of society. I am in no way a flag burner but traveling out of the country gives you a new perspective on America and we are not nearly as great we think we are. We have seriously jumped the shark and if we don't get our act together quick this country will fall apart. I took a cruise to Bermuda a couple weeks ago and walking around it is just a whole different vibe and feel. People say hello in the street and don't seem on edge while in America I feel like I can never let me guard down except for the people who earned my trust. The relations between the genders we see in society is just one example of how society has gone to crap.

[impatiently_patient]

I was actually going to ask about that, OP. Being in music and traveling, I assume you spend a lot of time at shows and clubs and music festivals and stuff like that? In my experience the women you find there do tend to be kinda vapid, probably in large part due to drugs and alcohol. I guess that wouldn't account for online dating but it could be that otherwise you're shopping at the wrong store.

 

Well, yes and no. I don't do festivals, personally. They're expensive, dirty, hot (especially in AZ), too few bands I want to see (Euro festivals are far better than U.S. ones, IMO), they treat the bands like cattle, many get crap timeslots, short sets, they're using backline, and are never at their best, etc., etc.

 

I do go to shows fairly often, and it's somewhat true, about the drinking (not so much drugs, sometimes pot). I tend to like the dual-purpose venues with a bar area/patio separate from a dedicated stage room. It's more conducive to conversation that way. Still, shows are male-heavy, couples-heavy, and a lot of the time women "are there to see the show" not get hit on. It's my side of the tracks' "We're just here to dance".

 

I have more luck in the venues that cater to the same crowd, but are straight-up "You're here to drink!" spots. Drugs are what they often are, a substitution for social belonging as much as they are a high, but if I've got to pick one, alcohol is the best at also being a social lubricant. A lot of times, I won't even notice a girl until she's drunk and up in my face. There's so much antisocial behavior and aloofness up until that point. I keep going back though, as much as I keep trying new places.

[jay1983]

Due to my time spent in the music community, I've got a number of friends strewn about the globe, and I was online chatting with a regular in Melbourne, Australia. Really good guy.

 

I was venting a bit about my dating frustrations, and made the comment, "I'm the biggest humanist you probably know, but when it comes to modern dating, I'd almost swear women are really trying to create an experience to turn men into misogynists." Then I think there were some choice expletives.

 

He came back with, "Yeah, I feel sorry for you, man. I've heard that American women are tremendously superficial." Obviously , this is a generalization, and I certainly know some superficial men in my little world, but from my [straight, male] side of the dating table, it sure does feel out of balance. It's ridiculously difficult to get a break, it seems, and I ain't a bad looking / out-of-shape / broke / unconfident guy.

 

It is a bit disconcerting to hear that American women are infamous for being more than a bit vapid. It's funny, I see all sorts of reasonably decent women with less than "GQ perfect" guys, but most of the single women I come across out there seem so fickle and insufferable.

 

My take and I'm no senior analyst, this is just my hypothesis.

 

The reason it seems this way is cause 80% of people are in relationships, leaving the other 20% of singles for you to look at. Yeah like you I see women with men who aren't GQ perfect, but those are taken. Now with the single gals, I see exactly what you're talking about. Yes it seems a bit out of balance to me too. They're all going for the best looking man they can get attention from and they know catch when they see one. In other words, man out of their league.

[Curious-One]

First forget about online dating... online dating is only for great great looking guys, girls have nothing to judge you other then you appearance so unless you are really good looking stay away.

 

 

Second are you putting yourself out there and talking to women? How are you social skills ?

 

Are you asking these women out ? How are you doing it....are you good at making jokes having a good conversation?

 

In my opinion there is two ways you can come off when approaching girls and showing interest and i have seen both in action

 

-You can come off as awkward nervous low confidence and pretty much any girl will reject you no matter the looks. I have seen this in real life with guys and seen them get rejected despite them being average or above average.

 

- I also seen below average guys easily get girls because they have great social skills and act like they are amazing.

[SycamoreCircle]

My advice would be to find some sort of extracurricular activity, possibly a class, in one of these secular gentry pockets that you speak of. I bet pottery is big in Arizona, does that hold any interest for you? And it's sure to be something that would attract more, pardon the pun, down-to-earth women.

 

Or what about a cooking class?

 

Find something you can be passionate about(in a fun way) that holds the potential of putting you in contact with single women. Then, if it turns out to be an absolute sausage-fest you still get to perfect your tom-yum soup.

[loveweary11]

There are I don't know how many threads posted by men on here about how women have changed. If an entire gender has changed maybe there is a reason for it? Maybe you men should start thinking about changing as well.

 

I think this is a huge issue.

 

The root of all the male frustration we see here.

 

Women have changed significantly, while men haven't so much.

 

Guys just aren't used to having to be "pretty" on top of all the other standard requirements.

 

Times were easier for both sexes when gender roles were clear and the list of expectations was shorter.

 

Looking at the reverse side, women are now expected to be smart, beautiful, exciting, strong professionals, great mothers, good breadwinners, pornstars, etc, etc.

 

It's an impossible archetype for a human being to live up to. Men have an identical problem.

 

The melding of masculine and feminine traits in modern society has had the consequence of creating unrealistic expectations no one can live up to.

[Els]

Honestly, Americans in general (of both genders) are often stereotyped by people from other countries as being excessively superficial (also this is only one of many other, uh, unflattering stereotypes). Whether or not this stereotype applies obviously depends on the individual. I've known Americans (again, of both genders) that fit the stereotype, and Americans who don't.

[Ninjainpajamas]

In my travels, the people/Americans are more often generalized as a whole rather than female/male.

 

I mean, I've met guys who've slept with American women in their home countries taking advantage of loose legged women on vacation (not exclusive to American women of course)...but It's not consistent enough yet to make any kind of assessment, I need more data to come to a conclusion on it.

 

Generally I hear "foreign" men talking more about women from other countries, rather than from the US or UK...but UK comes up a lot more often, therefore I don't think American women have much of a reputation, they're not sought after from what I've heard, if even mentioned.

 

When they do talk about women, it's other nationalities...I mean other than men constantly stating that UK women are "easy"...but to be honest, that's kind of considered common knowledge rather than a generalization at this point. Backed up by the men who I've met from the UK.

 

I think American culture in general is seen as commercialized, materialistic and a bit over the top therefore yeah possibly high maintenance and vain. Of course we're known as the fatties of the world, and we speak loudly but also confidently, and friendly/nice..it's not all bad.

 

I've asked people quite a bit what they thought about Americans or what perceptions they have...but being that English is usually their 3rd language or just not being very fluent in it, they tend to have a bit of difficulty articulating themselves as one would hope, they have trouble finding the words and usually stick to basics. I get plenty of information on dating and relationship dynamics however, although I'm probably even more of a weirdo than I was in the US talking to people about those things...but I love women, they're always open about conversation in regards to relationships, it doesn't seem to matter what culture they are from.

 

I won't make many comments yet however, haven't received enough feedback and input from enough people to draw any conclusions or generalizations. But when I think when men are looking for the "ideal" woman, they generally are not looking towards western culture for that, they're looking more "east" for that still.

[amaysngrace]

American men and women are both more superficial and materialistic than people in other countries because we can be.

[Redhead14]

I wasn't speaking about you.

 

I have no way of knowing whether you are lazy or not.

 

I was speaking about the pitfalls of generalisation.

 

Generalisations can be a form of thought-terminating cliché.

 

"The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis."

 

-Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism. Robert Jay Lifton.

 

Generalisations can be a form of thought-terminating cliché -- Exactly, generalizations do terminate, unconsciously even, the thought process especially in dating.

 

Even statisticians are still only working with a limited sampling of the subject they are dealing with and statistics are often skewed, and manipulated according to whatever point they are trying to prove.

 

People who accept generalizations do it as a way of "filtering" and not bothering to really focus on what's in front of them because they are too lazy maybe emotionally to bother to dig a little deeper. Accepting generalizations in terms of dating, limits dating opportunities.

 

For instance, a guy may date a woman or a couple who simply say that they like a man with a beard. The man has the generalization in his head that women are superficial and starts interpreting that statement to mean that this particular woman/women is/are superficial and won't bother to ask them for another date. So, in effect, the generalization killed the dating opportunity.

 

I'm just saying that, yeah, there are generalizations, just don't let them interfere with the ability to be open-minded.

[elaine567]

OK so we have gone from the "generalisation" that American women are "superficial" to the "common knowledge" that UK women are "easy"?

 

Any other nationality's women that men on here would like to offend?

[Ninjainpajamas]

OK so we have gone from the "generalisation" that American women are "superficial" to the "common knowledge" that UK women are "easy"?

 

Any other nationality's women that men on here would like to offend?

 

Not at the moment, but I'll update you depending on what a large proportion of other men are saying.

[losangelena]

So even if the Australian perception is that American women are superficial, you could say that the American perception of East Asian men is that they all have small penises; the American perception of Muslims is that they're all terrorists. Just because the perception is there doesn't mean it's true. More fair would be to say that SOME American women are superficial, SOME East Asian men have small penises, and SOME Muslims are terrorists.

 

I think what your friend said resonated with you because you have a bit of confirmation bias going on.

 

When I was dating, I started to notice that many of the men I was most attracted to were unavailable in some way—one wasn't over his ex-wife, one was a workaholic, one was a druggie. Yes, I could have generalized and just been like, all these men are just so unavailable! But instead I tried to figure what was it about me that I kept on bumping up against this problem. I do empathize with you, OP, but my hunch is that your problem is more one of perception and not just that American women are superficial.

 

I'm curious—and I ask simply to understand—what makes a woman superficial in your eyes? How have you come across this in your dating experience? Furthermore, what has been your dating experience?

[SoleMate]

As has been said again and again on LS, bitterness and self-entitlement and lack of seeing oneself as if from other's eyes are some of the least attractive traits to display when looking for a future SO. Although I'm sure there are plenty of superficial and shallow American women, I very much doubt that there are disproportionate pools of deep and introspective American men. On the contrary, the women I know are as a group more intellectual, more introspective, more informed, and prone to deeper analysis and thinking than the men. Just one data point, but until this moment I never thought to tar all men with a "shallow" brush (due to the small data set which, let's be honest, applies to everyone except someone who's done a formal survey of thousands of people).

 

You've made it clear that the primary determinant of shallowness is that....a woman is not interested in you! Whereas a female with the intellect of a blow molded Barbie doll who hung on your every word, however bitter or inane, and longed to jump into the sack with you, would not need to worry about being tagged "shallow".

 

Anyhow, you won't change women with a LS thread. Recommend you adjust to the realities out there.