Lack of respect: whose fault is it anyway?

[Emilia]

I think you are letting your own anecdotal experience cloud your judgement.

The old double standards are alive and well.

Ariana Grande: Tearing Down Double Standards?*|*Dr. Jane Greer

 

Yes I'm not arguing that some don't take on double standards. My point is that the issue of number of sexual partners isn't significant enough to conclude as the reason behind lack of respect. The number will be on a bell curve. The vast majority of women will fall under average.

 

A conservative restriction on female sexuality serves those that are uncomfortable by it. It serves no purpose otherwise.

[Emilia]

The whole thread starting when a woman who admits she is sexually liberated complained about men not taking her seriously or utlimately respecting her. My reaction to this is, you can't go against the society norm and then complain for it. It's like driving on the opposite side of the highway and complain why the other cars go the other way than you. But this is the way they are supposed to go. Either you are a rebel and suck it up or you follow the society's rules.

 

And the reason I'm somewhat angry is cause this kind of women destroy the rest of women's reputation. Men consider every existing woman an easy one and they don't give the effort they should to win a respectable woman.

 

I don't know where you live but what you are saying isn't the social norm in London, for example. You also make men sound not very intelligent with that statement, you aren't responsible for the behaviour of other women. No reason why it should bother you that much.

 

The reason why some women aren't respected is that they often seek relationships with men based on resource. They act like dead wood, another mouth to feed and are too passive when it comes to decision making.

 

The same behaviour (passivity, bad decision making, not taking responsibility) isn't respected in men either. That's why they are called 'beta'. The reason why you see them complaining in threads because they get no respect from other men.

 

It's how the world works. No-one cares whether you screwed 3 guys or 15. If it's a hundred, some might start caring. But really for the majority it's a non issue.

[jen1447]

i'll never understand why a woman who is sexually open and free and liberated, who owns her own sexuality = viewed as desperate. it's not desperate, it's called owning your body, having fun and doing what you want.

That's always amused me too. In my case and with most women I know who are sexually progressive, it's the exact opposite of desperation - it's contentment. Profound contentment.

[autumnnight]

I find it desperate and problematic cause women over the centuries have surpvived fine without all this desperate need for sex today's women show. It's not natural, in my opinion, for a woman to base her life on sex that much. Were women throughout the centuries so mistaken? Were they so opressed by it? I don't think so. I think women want to be equal to men so badly that they will do anything for this to happen. I want to be equal with a man and have the same rights in life with a man. But I don't want to become same as a man. I want to keep my femininity, my sensitivity, my woman side in general. Men physically need sex for medical reasons, they can't do without. Women in my opinion should not let their urges control their decisions so much. We can do without sex and we should do without sex especially when it becomes a criteria of people respecting us.

 

I do not know a single woman who builds her whole life around sex. I know many women who are normal in that that actually have sexual desire. I'll be bold here: a woman who clamps down her sexual desire and views sex as some annoying duty is UNhealthy. I have no respect for a woman (or man) who has a partner commit to her (or him) and then denies that partner a legitimate, intimate, and important need

 

Regarding being "easy," as it used to be called...I'm not going to be sleeping with someone on the first date. Because of how makes ME feel. Plus, I admit that I do not have the modern dating savvy t distinguish the man who will stick with you from the man who "got what he wanted" so he disappears. I also abhor the idea that people can be sleeping with several people simultaneously while they "decide" who they want. So, for me, the best way to avoid all that is to get to know someone and make it clear that once I enter the bedroom, theirs is the ONLY bedroom I will be entering and I want the same from them. Of course, making out is fine before that, and maybe that is because I like kissing

 

But here's the thing....women actually WEREN'T happy being nonsexual all those centuries. If you look at real history, many women had just as many affairs as men; they just had to be more discreet because of double standards. As much as we are aghast today at doctors who labeled women "hysterical" and gave them early vibrators and such....doctors did it because it worked. We ARE sexual creatures.

 

I may not have much respect for a woman who drops her panties on ever date. I have even less respect for a woman who is cold and stingy and will not meet her partner's need for physical intimacy. THAT kind of woman deserves the least respect of all, IMO.

[minimariah]

A man wants to be with a woman he can be proud of. Really hard to be proud of the woman who sleeps around.

 

where did you learn that pride has any connection to someone's sexuality...? what and who made you think that pride is conditioned by someone's body count?

 

Yup. It's those evil men!

 

what are you talking about...? what evil men, who mentioned evil men...? you have no idea what i'm talking about, don't you?

 

and you do realize that you cannot possibly deny the influence and results of patriarchy, mysogny & double - standards...? right...? hello, sociology...?

 

WTF does any of this have to do with rape?

 

who said anything about rape...? i mentioned rape culture.

you mean to tell me -- you don't know the difference...? wow.

[minimariah]

Nope. Exactly the opposite. I want women like you to go on "giving it and receiving it" so that good men have the opportunity to know easily which women are worth their time and effort and which are not. More good men to choose from for me!

 

i'll take "what's mysogny" for 200, Alex!

[minimariah]

It just makes us two people who disagree.

 

it makes ME someone who disagrees -- you managed to insult those who disagreed with you ALREADY & challenged you on your opinion while pointing out problematic things. don't make me quote you.

 

But this woman, given the standards (good or bad, it doesn't matter) of the society should expect there are consequences from her actions, them being people creating an opinion about her and/or choosing not to hang out with her or having anything to do with her.

 

she shouldn't.

 

People's lives are determined by their choices. We can't choose to do things and then expect to not have any consequences. If I choose to not go to a family event I was invited to, I should expect my family will not like it and be mad or annoyed or insulted by me. Free will? F%&& yeah. But actions raise reactions. If you can own it, more power to you. But don't complain when people create opinions you don't like about you.

 

comparing apples & turtles.

 

I find it desperate and problematic cause women over the centuries have surpvived fine without all this desperate need for sex today's women show.

 

yeah, they did... because they were sexually OPRESSED for centuries, you know that...? right...? women weren't allowed to enjoy sex.

 

Were they so opressed by it? I don't think so.

 

you don't have to think, sweetheart. history doesn't lie and it proves the opression of women over the years. i didn't wake up one day & made up patriarchy... it has BEEN existing.

 

and just because a woman is sexually opened and free -- it doesn't mean that she cannot control her urges and that she is basing her life on sex (?!?!?!).

 

I think women want to be equal to men so badly that they will do anything for this to happen.

 

wh-...... how did you on Earth connect this topic with women wanting to be equal to men? why is it so hard for you to understand that women do things for them and because they want to -- not for some higher goal?

 

I want to be equal with a man and have the same rights in life with a man. But I don't want to become same as a man.

 

nobody does.

 

I want to keep my femininity, my sensitivity, my woman side in general.

 

you can do all of this while getting f*cked real good & often.

 

Men physically need sex for medical reasons, they can't do without.

 

*falls off chair*

men need sex for medical reasons and women don't...?

 

jesus, fix it!

 

Women in my opinion should not let their urges control their decisions so much.

 

they don't let their urges control their decisions - THEY HAVE SEX BECAUSE THEY WANT TO not because they can't control themselves. seriously...?

 

We can do without sex and we should do without sex especially when it becomes a criteria of people respecting us.

 

sex isn't a criteria of people respecting us -- it is YOUR criteria, for example. and yes, we need sex. NEED it. because we'll freaking die out

[minimariah]

That's always amused me too. In my case and with most women I know who are sexually progressive, it's the exact opposite of desperation - it's contentment. Profound contentment.

 

DITTO.

 

only desperate women i know are those who aren't getting any.

[SummerDreams]

I cannot believe how condescending and offensive this is.

 

And you don't find the phrase "Well I'm sorry sister but some of us give it and receive it without caring what you think" offending for the female gender?I do.

 

Give it and receive it. Like we are animals....

[jen1447]

Nope. Exactly the opposite. I want women like you to go on "giving it and receiving it" so that good men have the opportunity to know easily which women are worth their time and effort and which are not. More good men to choose from for me!

I cannot believe how condescending and offensive this is.

I don't know SummerDreams but it does sound like a contradiction of all the non-judgmentalness she went to so much trouble explaining.

 

Ultimately that's the core issue I have with the 'prude' (so to speak) crowd - there's almost always some veiled contempt in their outlook for people who aren't the same as them. That happens to be the same impetus for other much more clearly abhorrent tendencies like racism and sexism. Not exactly good company to keep.

[Keenly]

If I was in the process of courting a woman and she told me she has sex on the first date I'll lose a lot of respect for her.

 

The reason I do because I think about how low the bar of effort required from the man to get her to sleep with him must be.

 

I think about if in the future while we were dating another man came along and only mildly impressed her, would she sleep with him too?

 

 

I want to work for it. I want it to be incredibly hard to get into woman's pants. I'll be patient. Then I have have a lot of trust in knowing that she would never r want to sleep with anyone but me, because I've seen the amount of effort it takes and most guys aren't willing to be that serious about just sex.

[carhill]

OP, I want to apologize for misreading the first post. I thought it was about the dynamics of respect for others, and the attendant responsibility for behaviors, but instead appears to be about aspects of sex being perceived as respectable or not. Please disregard my prior comments.

 

Personally, I haven't had sex outside of established relationships or marriage so have never approached a woman for sex on a first date. It simply never occurred to me. However, I did note some pushback for that style, in that women made comments which, reflected upon later, appeared to show disappointment that I wasn't sexual earlier in the dating process. At the time I viewed those comments as 'we missed', meaning different styles of interaction, perhaps along with a bit of embarrassment that I was failing as the type of man they were used to encountering. Time solved the latter. Still, growing up during the sexual revolution and encountering many women who were more openly sexual and casual about sex than myself (married one of them), I never had clear thoughts regarding their respectability or not revolving around sex. I did, in relationships, have opinions about how I was respected, or not, in those relationships, but that was personal, not a general societal-oriented comment.

[SummerDreams]

I don't know SummerDreams but it does sound like a contradiction of all the non-judgmentalness she went to so much trouble explaining.

 

It's true I lost it with the sentence "Well I'm sorry sister but some of us give it and receive it without caring what you think" and I lost all my arguments and non-judgemental self. It just hit a nerve.

 

If I was in the process of courting a woman and she told me she has sex on the first date I'll lose a lot of respect for her.

 

The reason I do because I think about how low the bar of effort required from the man to get her to sleep with him must be.

 

I think about if in the future while we were dating another man came along and only mildly impressed her, would she sleep with him too?

 

 

I want to work for it. I want it to be incredibly hard to get into woman's pants. I'll be patient. Then I have have a lot of trust in knowing that she would never r want to sleep with anyone but me, because I've seen the amount of effort it takes and most guys aren't willing to be that serious about just sex.

 

I can't believe I agree with you but I do. I hope women take your ideas into consideration.

[Keenly]

It's true I lost it with the sentence "Well I'm sorry sister but some of us give it and receive it without caring what you think" and I lost all my arguments and non-judgemental self. It just hit a nerve.

It

 

 

I can't believe I agree with you but I do. I hope women take your ideas into consideration.

 

I can't wait to.be told how misogynistic I am and how I'm perpetuating the rape culture.

[Emilia]

And you don't find the phrase "Well I'm sorry sister but some of us give it and receive it without caring what you think" offending for the female gender?I do.

 

Give it and receive it. Like we are animals....

 

I can speak about myself in any way I wish. You don't get to tell me how I should view my sexuality or anything else related to me. It's my business.

[toscaroscura]

I think part of the issue here is the fact that a good looking guy can totally disrespect a woman and get away with it, just because he is good looking. To me, that is where most of the disrespect comes from.

 

So what? A good looking woman can get away with murder too. That really has nothing to do with anything here. I'm sure you're not positing that only good looking people are "sluts"?

 

Time and time again on here I see the same theme in many of the threads started by some of the ladies here. If a guy has the right look, some ladies will put up with just about any rude behavior he displays. When those women allow some guy to treat them like crap just because he is good looking, it shows a serious lack of respect. Very few people will show respect to a person who doesn't even respect themselves.

 

You act like this is only a woman thing. The Halo Effect is documented. I don't see the threads saying that a guy who puts up with a "crazy but hot" woman deserves less respect. We might think he's a sucker, and needs to stand up for himself, but he is still afforded basic human respect. But let a woman get carried away with a handsome man and people here are ready to condemn her.

 

Pretty much every guy wants to have sex, but few of us want to be with the woman who has had sex with every other guy in the world. It makes for an uncomfortable trip to Walmart when the girl you are seeing has like 4 or 5 different "guy friends" stop and say hello to her when you are with her. A man wants to be with a woman he can be proud of. Really hard to be proud of the woman who sleeps around.

 

It's not the fact that you don't want a woman who sleeps around that's the problem, it's the double standard. I've known men who have harems, too, but they don't get denigrated like women do.

 

Besides, people having these "harems" is a separate issue and speaks more to a need for constant attention. A woman can still be sexual and own her sexuality and not have a harem.

 

Yup. It's those evil men!

 

It's not men she's talking about, but ingrained cultural attitudes.

 

WTF does any of this have to do with rape?

 

Because, when you draw the conclusion that a woman is not deserving of basic respect based on her past partners (or even perceived past!), and that it's women's "fault" for this, it's not a big leap to buy into that old-fashioned "well she was asking for it" mentality.

[autumnnight]

To be clear, I choose to reserve physical intimacy for an established relationship.

 

However, with a broader view than just this thread, I have to say, promoting waiting for sex is one thing. Shaming those who do NOT wait out of a flip and negative attitude about sex in general is another.

 

Of course I am guilty of that too. People who wait for sex may view themselves as better than those who put out on the first date.

 

I view myself as better than a woman who poo poos her partner's needs and withholds sex.

 

So I guess we all judge in one way or another.

[Emilia]

To be clear, I choose to reserve physical intimacy for an established relationship.

 

However, with a broader view than just this thread, I have to say, promoting waiting for sex is one thing. Shaming those who do NOT wait out of a flip and negative attitude about sex in general is another.

 

Of course I am guilty of that too. People who wait for sex may view themselves as better than those who put out on the first date.

 

I view myself as better than a woman who poo poos her partner's needs and withholds sex.

 

So I guess we all judge in one way or another.

That's always my argument, that we judge. However, trying to shame people into following a set of values under the false concern over how men see women is something very different.

[candie13]

ain't nobody's business about whom, how soon and how often I sleep with anyone. If my partner judges me... well guess what, he was there, in the bed with me, he's just as bad. and on top of it, judgmental.

 

I live just fine with my decisions about my sex life and it ain't nobody's business - on this site or on RL to judge - me or anyone else.

 

I don't actually understand what the point of this thread is. That women sleeping too soon lose other people's /men's respect or what ... ?

[autumnnight]

ain't nobody's business about whom, how soon and how often I sleep with anyone. If my partner judges me... well guess what, he was there, in the bed with me, he's just as bad. and on top of it, judgmental.

 

I live just fine with my decisions about my sex life and it ain't nobody's business - on this site or on RL to judge - me or anyone else.

 

I don't actually understand what the point of this thread is. That women sleeping too soon lose other people's /men's respect or what ... ?

 

I think it's basically a convoluted revisitation of the old "sex is dirty and unnecessary" idea.

[SummerDreams]

Men are scared to admit that they value a woman who easily sleeps with them less than a woman who will show she considers knowing the other person's soul and character before jumping in bed with him. Either way women have free will. What I disagree on is complaining about it afterwards. Also I dont have double standards. I value a man who only wants sex way lower than a man who cares for the inner value of a woman more.

[autumnnight]

Men are scared to admit that they value a woman who easily sleeps with them less than a woman who will show she considers knowing the other person's soul and character before jumping in bed with him. Either way women have free will. What I disagree on is complaining about it afterwards. Also I dont have double standards. I value a man who only wants sex way lower than a man who cares for the inner value of a woman more.

 

So you know what men think and are scared to say.

 

You believe denying sex means you care more about a person's soul.

 

You think that wanting sex and caring about someone's inner value are mutually exclusive.

[jen1447]

I disagree about the soul thing - I don't think you could possibly know someone so intimately as to know their soul without having sex with them.

[candie13]

I think when it's chemistry, nobody gives a rats ass when they slept with eachother. My sister slept with her husband the first night they met. They were crazy about eachother. And the guy was 5 years younger than her. He still married her.

 

I do agree that having this sort of behavior on usual basis makes it difficult to weed out the men interested in sex exclusively from those interested to know the person... but the truth is... you never ever know, as if a man only wants to sleep with you, he may as well wait until he has your trust, sleep with you and then leave. Be too careful, cold, in control and you might just miss that unbelievable unique once-in-a-lifetime experience.

 

It's not as simple as having or showing respect. It's a RS, it's about feeling /sensing the other person and building on it - or not.

[Taramere]

When there are so many women who accept to do anything with a man on the first date (sometimes not even a date is necessary) like they are gonna die from "horniness" or no sex it's natural that men will demand or expect stuff.

 

I think a reasonably intelligent man will be sufficiently aware of human nature to understand that what is right for one woman (ie sex on a first date) isn't necessarily right for the next one.

 

If any man "demanded" sex from me on the basis that the last woman he went out for a drink with shagged him on the first date, he would be getting short shrift. Demanding sex of a woman he's meeting for the first time sounds distinctly dodgy to me. It's certainly not something I'd react to with "well, it's only natural you would place these demands on me".

 

A hundred years ago or so men respected women cause they knew no woman would make out with them or have sex with them unless they were engaged or married.

 

Society generally approved of women who adhered to that rule. Or who made a good enough pretence of adhering to it. People patting you on the head for being a good girl and following the rules isn't necessarily the same as being respected by them.

 

Today most women act like free spirits who are open to anything but then complain when men don't respect them. I'm sorry but people will show you the respect you demand and think you deserve. What I know from myself is, I've never let a man believe that he can be open with me and suggest sex on the first dates. The first dates for me are to get to know each other's personality, soul and character.

 

Discuss

 

Well, my general sense from this post is that you want to present yourself as being different from - and perhaps superior to - most women. When people do that, it often comes from a place of insecurity. Maybe you're questioning your own choices? Maybe on some level you wish you were more of a free spirit who could just click with a guy very rapidly and jump into bed with him in an uninhibited manner?

 

I personally share your preference to only get intimate with men I've built up a sense of trust with, but I would see that as just being part and parcel of my particular personality type. I wouldn't expect to be more respected as a result of it than the next woman who has a more robust and practical approach to sex. I would expect my right to be true to who I am respected.

 

Generally, I think respect that comes from people having a set of principles that they try hard to adhere to in a consistent way, and from them generally being authentic. If jumping into bed on the first date is not for you, then you shouldn't do it - and you shouldn't permit yourself to feel pressured to do it based on what other women choose to do. You are not bound by other women's choices....but similarly, they shouldn't be bound by yours. Nor condemned as being in some way inferior because they don't make the same choices as you.