Lack of respect: whose fault is it anyway?

[SummerDreams]

After elaine's suggestion following another thread's discussion I make this thread for discussion.

 

I know my ideas won't get the best reactions but I do believe women not getting the men's respect they want is women's fault. When there are so many women who accept to do anything with a man on the first date (sometimes not even a date is necessary) like they are gonna die from "horniness" or no sex it's natural that men will demand or expect stuff. A hundred years ago or so men respected women cause they knew no woman would make out with them or have sex with them unless they were engaged or married. Today most women act like free spirits who are open to anything but then complain when men don't respect them. I'm sorry but people will show you the respect you demand and think you deserve. What I know from myself is, I've never let a man believe that he can be open with me and suggest sex on the first dates. The first dates for me are to get to know each other's personality, soul and character.

 

Discuss

[misspond]

Our social constructs determine everything. We have to decide whether we live within them or outside of them. What happens after that is all about personality and social skills.

[Arieswoman]

misspond,

 

people will show you the respect you demand and think you deserve. What I know from myself is, I've never let a man believe that he can be open with me and suggest sex on the first dates. The first dates for me are to get to know each other's personality, soul and character.

 

I would agree with this. ^^^^

 

In the past I walked out on a dates because I didn't like his attitude/he was rude/wanted sex too soon/was a nutjob etc.

 

I spent a lot of my divorced years without a man. However, listening to all the angst that my single dating friends had made me realise that being alone is better than being with someone who doesn't respect you.

[toscaroscura]

Why does me kissing and/or having sex with someone I really like mean no respect for me?

 

Why do men seem to want women to sleep with them, yet turn around and trash these women?

[misspond]

Why does me kissing and/or having sex with someone I really like mean no respect for me?

 

Why do men seem to want women to sleep with them, yet turn around and trash these women?

 

We've such a long way to go in terms of equality eh?

[carhill]

Respect for others begins with self-respect. Hence, one is responsible for their own behaviors, regardless of what others expect, allow, deny, or deride. It's part of being an autonomous being with free will.

 

Whenever two people interact, there is a confluence of behaviors and free will. All are perceived by the parties in their own unique and individual way. If minds meet, then relations continue. If not, not. If one feels disrespected, they do. If the other feels no disrespect intended, they do. The minds didn't meet. Next.

 

At some point, disrespect becomes a matter of law but that, in general, is beyond the scope of this discussion. Up to the point a behavior crosses the societal point of illegality, it is permitted and the person acting is solely responsible for the behavior and any consequences which attend.

 

As an example, a man who 'treats her mean to keep her keen' is solely responsible for his behaviors, regardless of how they're perceived. He has choices and has chosen to 'treat her mean'. He birthed that baby and it's his to raise.

[Arieswoman]

toscaroscura,

 

Why does me kissing and/or having sex with someone I really like mean no respect for me?

 

Why do men seem to want women to sleep with them, yet turn around and trash these women?

 

I can't speak for the USA, but in my experience in UK the double standard is still alive and well......

[minimariah]

Why does me kissing and/or having sex with someone I really like mean no respect for me?

 

Why do men seem to want women to sleep with them, yet turn around and trash these women?

 

because sexism, patriarchy, mysogny & madonna - whore complex.

 

all of that being said... run for the hills as fast as you can from a dude who decides will he respect you or not based on how fast you f*cked him.

 

dude who thinks you don't deserve OR deserve respect based on how sexually opened and free you are - newsflash, he doesn't respect you anyway.

[Tayla]

As adults we are empowered by our standards and respect follows that mode. Agree 100% that we assert ourselves at various moments to retain that level of regard.

 

We have a voice, we have self respect.

 

Adults are accountable.

 

adults also make mistakes and try to irrationally justify them.

 

Its a win win when adults can be respecting.

[minimariah]

The first dates for me are to get to know each other's personality, soul and character.

 

i f*cked on first dates & was NEVER disrespected because of it.

 

i guess i know how to pick men who respect the fact that EYE get to decide what i'll do with MY body.

 

this idea that women who are sexually opened and liberated don't deserve respect is annoying.

 

so when a man disrespects you because you decided to f*ck on the 1st date? no, that's not your fault and thinking it is? hello, rape culture.

[jen1447]

Respect's not sth you're granted, it's sth you 'take' or don't tolerate the lack of from people. Has little to do with sexual behaviors imo. People are free to hold you in whatever regard they choose (and usually I couldn't care less about that), but the only people who are shown active disrespect from others - for whatever reason - are those who don't have the will to insist on it.

[SummerDreams]

Either we like it or not there are some standards in our society. Some serve a good purpose, some need to stop and some will be here till the end of the world. Specifically for this matter there is a great percentage of men who don't value that much (the quantity here can vary depending on the person) a woman when she seems very open sexually. Is this a thing that should exist in our society? Well the answer will var depending on every person's ideas, way they were raised, religion, other cultural habits etc. We can't deny though that this standard exists. Now do we decide to become rebels and do what we want? Do we accept it and go with society's standards cause we don't want to differ? Do we make our own rules of our life? We can do wither of them as long as we are mature grown ups who decide for their life and I totally respect every choice made this way. But do other people have the right to respond to our acts according to their way of thinking? Absolutely. So in this situation a woman can choose to be open sexually and do whatever she likes on the first date, or even not have a date. But we as observers and especially the man who dates her have the right to create an opinion (not judge) about this woman. This opinion can be admiration, respect, lack of respect, indifference, anger and so on. Personally I choose to agree with the specific society's standard cause I don't think a woman needs sex so desperately to reach to point to do it with whomever. I believe that the connection of the souls and hearts is the number one priority, and sex come way later. Do I sound old fashioned or conservative? Maybe. But this is my opinion and I won't change it for anyone, no matter how many years will pass by and how the society will change some rules through the years.

[minimariah]

Either we like it or not there are some standards in our society.

 

truth & those standards are mysognistic & are a direct result of patriarchy (hence the double standards: you opened a thread about a WOMAN being undeserving of respect from a man she slept with soon after meeting him but you don't dare to question the respect a WOMAN is supposed to have or not have for this man... because a respect for a man is a given... according to these "standards") -- like it or not, it's a fact you cannot deny. just because it's a standard -- it doesn't mean that it shouldn't EVER be challenged. we, as humans, BEEN CHALLENGING and "rebelling" against social standards since the beginning of the times. it's how evolution happens -- folks with critical thinking help the society in evolution, not the sheeples.

 

you have to always question everything in order to grow as an individual - critical thinking is absolutely necessary.

 

Specifically for this matter there is a great percentage of men who don't value that much (the quantity here can vary depending on the person) a woman when she seems very open sexually.

 

there is, true & they very nicely fit into one box. there is a certain profile of men who do that = their personalities are pretty much the same, their backgrounds, the way they were raised... strong (usually catholic) religious upbringing, strong patriarchal families (usually dysfunctional...) -- it is a phenomenon (better known as a madonna-whore complex) that has been studied for decades.

 

But do other people have the right to respond to our acts according to their way of thinking? Absolutely.

 

no one has the right to disrespect you because of what you choose to do with YOUR body, no. to see and value a woman through her sexuality is, in fact, a form of opression (woman = a sex object). you don't have to have a nice opinion about women who have sex on 1st dates and are sexually open... you can dislike it all you want. but the moment you try to say that those women don't deserve any respect? you crossed the "it's just my opinion" line.

 

if you don't respect a woman because she leads a different sexual lifestyle than you -- you're judging her. that's not an opinion. opinion would be saying -- OK, some ladies f*ck on 1st dates and i don't agree with it but i respect their choice -- THAT is opinion. saying that a woman is to blame for not being respected because she chooses to act a certain way sexually...? judgement that came from years of indoctrination through your family, friends, church, media...

 

& i'm grateful that more and more folks (both men and women) are aware of this. of you look st the society right now and before... before, being a virgin was considered a virtue and something that is desirable. now? not so much. men i know want a woman who is sexually experienced because they don't plan to marry a nun + they aren't interested in teaching them how to f*ck.

 

so something DID shift and change. and it keeps changing.

 

Personally I choose to agree with the specific society's standard cause I don't think a woman needs sex so desperately to reach to point to do it with whomever.

 

i'll never understand why a woman who is sexually open and free and liberated, who owns her own sexuality = viewed as desperate. it's not desperate, it's called owning your body, having fun and doing what you want.

 

I believe that the connection of the souls and hearts is the number one priority, and sex come way later.

 

i for one, respect that, you and your opinion. and i don't think you're less deseving of that respect just because i consider your view on sexuality tragic. why? because i realize you're a human being and i don't see you through how many dicks your vagina swallowed.

[minimariah]

Respect's not sth you're granted, it's sth you 'take' or don't tolerate the lack of from people. Has little to do with sexual behaviors imo. People are free to hold you in whatever regard they choose (and usually I couldn't care less about that), but the only people who are shown active disrespect from others - for whatever reason - are those who don't have the will to insist on it.

 

agreed.

 

men (or women) who say that they don't respect women because sexually opened and having sex on 1st dates are lying. point blank period because that is NOT the reason why they don't respect women.

 

it's levels to that type of thinking and "sexually opened" is used as an excuse.

[Emilia]

Completely disagree with the main idea behind the thread. Men respected women LESS 100 years ago. Women were treated like assets sold off with a dowry from one man (father) to another (husband). Marital rape and domestic violence weren't recognised as crime.

 

The reason why women aren't always respected is that many are brought up sheltered not expecting to pull their weight in society but expecting the same rewards. Fathers are especially guilty of this, I think.

 

True that some sexual choices are judged but that's only part of s bigger picture. We don't need to go back to the dark ages just need to stop the bloody whining about men and everything else and get on with it.

[SummerDreams]

truth & those standards are mysognistic & are a direct result of patriarchy (hence the double standards: you opened a thread about a WOMAN being undeserving of respect from a man she slept with soon after meeting him but you don't dare to question the respect a WOMAN is supposed to have or not have for this man... because a respect for a man is a given... according to these "standards") -- like it or not, it's a fact you cannot deny. just because it's a standard -- it doesn't mean that it shouldn't EVER be challenged. we, as humans, BEEN CHALLENGING and "rebelling" against social standards since the beginning of the times. it's how evolution happens -- folks with critical thinking help the society in evolution, not the sheeples.

 

In fact I never said a man's respect is a given. When I said, first dates are to connect our souls and not bodies it is a two way street so it's meant for both men and women. If I go on a first date with a man who just wants sex I just leave him, I don't respect him, I don't want to do anything with him. And regarding the change you want, I did say some things in society need to change, so I don't find a reason for you to repeat it. We have a different opinion, you want these changes cause you disagree with the standards while I don't want the changes cause I agree with the standards. You find these changes good, I find them bad. It just makes us two people who disagree. Noody can define which change must happen or must not happen.

 

you have to always question everything in order to grow as an individual - critical thinking is absolutely necessary.

 

I did question this subject and found that I agree with the standards existing. Just cause I don't want this standard to change doesn't mean I'm dumb or can't think, it just means I agree with it.

 

no one has the right to disrespect you because of what you choose to do with YOUR body, no. to see and value a woman through her sexuality is, in fact, a form of opression (woman = a sex object). you don't have to have a nice opinion about women who have sex on 1st dates and are sexually open... you can dislike it all you want. but the moment you try to say that those women don't deserve any respect? you crossed the "it's just my opinion" line.

 

if you don't respect a woman because she leads a different sexual lifestyle than you -- you're judging her. that's not an opinion. opinion would be saying -- OK, some ladies f*ck on 1st dates and i don't agree with it but i respect their choice -- THAT is opinion. saying that a woman is to blame for not being respected because she chooses to act a certain way sexually...? judgement that came from years of indoctrination through your family, friends, church, media...

 

& i'm grateful that more and more folks (both men and women) are aware of this. of you look st the society right now and before... before, being a virgin was considered a virtue and something that is desirable. now? not so much. men i know want a woman who is sexually experienced because they don't plan to marry a nun + they aren't interested in teaching them how to f*ck.

 

so something DID shift and change. and it keeps changing.

 

I respect everyone for their choices, but I am free to not respect them for their actions. I want and support everyone's free will and choice in life, but this doesn't stop me from agreeing or disagreeing with these actions. If a woman wants to sleep with a different man every night she is free to do so and I'll support her, as I have done in the past, I used to know a girl like this, she just enjoyed it and I respected that. But this woman, given the standards (good or bad, it doesn't matter) of the society should expect there are consequences from her actions, them being people creating an opinion about her and/or choosing not to hang out with her or having anything to do with her. People's lives are determined by their choices. We can't choose to do things and then expect to not have any consequences. If I choose to not go to a family event I was invited to, I should expect my family will not like it and be mad or annoyed or insulted by me. Free will? F%&& yeah. But actions raise reactions. If you can own it, more power to you. But don't complain when people create opinions you don't like about you.

 

i'll never understand why a woman who is sexually open and free and liberated, who owns her own sexuality = viewed as desperate. it's not desperate, it's called owning your body, having fun and doing what you want.

 

I find it desperate and problematic cause women over the centuries have surpvived fine without all this desperate need for sex today's women show. It's not natural, in my opinion, for a woman to base her life on sex that much. Were women throughout the centuries so mistaken? Were they so opressed by it? I don't think so. I think women want to be equal to men so badly that they will do anything for this to happen. I want to be equal with a man and have the same rights in life with a man. But I don't want to become same as a man. I want to keep my femininity, my sensitivity, my woman side in general. Men physically need sex for medical reasons, they can't do without. Women in my opinion should not let their urges control their decisions so much. We can do without sex and we should do without sex especially when it becomes a criteria of people respecting us.

[Emilia]

I respect everyone for their choices, but I am free to not respect them for their actions. I want and support everyone's free will and choice in life, but this doesn't stop me from agreeing or disagreeing with these actions. If a woman wants to sleep with a different man every night she is free to do so and I'll support her, as I have done in the past, I used to know a girl like this, she just enjoyed it and I respected that. But this woman, given the standards (good or bad, it doesn't matter) of the society should expect there are consequences from her actions, them being people creating an opinion about her and/or choosing not to hang out with her or having anything to do with her. People's lives are determined by their choices. We can't choose to do things and then expect to not have any consequences. If I choose to not go to a family event I was invited to, I should expect my family will not like it and be mad or annoyed or insulted by me. Free will? F%&& yeah. But actions raise reactions. If you can own it, more power to you. But don't complain when people create opinions you don't like about you.

 

 

 

I find it desperate and problematic cause women over the centuries have surpvived fine without all this desperate need for sex today's women show. It's not natural, in my opinion, for a woman to base her life on sex that much. Were women throughout the centuries so mistaken? Were they so opressed by it? I don't think so. I think women want to be equal to men so badly that they will do anything for this to happen. I want to be equal with a man and have the same rights in life with a man. But I don't want to become same as a man. I want to keep my femininity, my sensitivity, my woman side in general. Men physically need sex for medical reasons, they can't do without. Women in my opinion should not let their urges control their decisions so much. We can do without sex and we should do without sex especially when it becomes a criteria of people respecting us.

 

Women had no choice until the 60s when contraception became widely available. Women that got pregnant out of wedlock got banished because we were breeding stock that was bought. You are seriously suggesting that's something that should be brought back?

 

See my view is that conservative women want to shame liberals because they want to control access to sex. Well I'm sorry sister but some of us give it and receive it without caring what you think. Meaning, you have to come up with a better plan if you want to keep a man. Controlling sex isn't enough.

[candie13]

Respect starts with one self, not with the others. We respect ourselves through our actions, thoughts, reactions , barriers and boundaries we set up to define our limit, our space of action.

 

Someone said that fear, just like love, has a specific fragrance. The others can smell it off of you. They also say that the partner can only love you (and respect you) as much as you love and respect yourself.

 

People who are self assured don't ask themselves these sort of questions.

[Toodaloo]

toscaroscura,

 

I can't speak for the USA, but in my experience in UK the double standard is still alive and well......

 

While my experience of the US is limited its pretty much the same over there as it is for us.

 

Its a gender thing. Or a "something"...

 

I would love to "put out" early on. I would love the sexual freedom that I had when I was younger. Basic truth is that when I was younger the men I had in my life cared about me. They knew me and wanted me to be happy. I still know many of them and nothing has changed in *cough splutter* years.

 

Men that I am meeting now are "players". The classic hit it and run types. I have no feeling for people like that and also I do't want to catch crabs... so why would I want to go near that.

 

Older men just don't approach any more. They also seem to walk around with perpetual scowls on their faces which makes it so incredibly difficult to actually talk to them! The ones who have happy looks on their faces turn out to be married...! So what do you do?

[elaine567]

I respect everyone for their choices, but I am free to not respect them for their actions. I want and support everyone's free will and choice in life, but this doesn't stop me from agreeing or disagreeing with these actions. If a woman wants to sleep with a different man every night she is free to do so and I'll support her, as I have done in the past, I used to know a girl like this, she just enjoyed it and I respected that. But this woman, given the standards (good or bad, it doesn't matter) of the society should expect there are consequences from her actions, them being people creating an opinion about her and/or choosing not to hang out with her or having anything to do with her. People's lives are determined by their choices. We can't choose to do things and then expect to not have any consequences. If I choose to not go to a family event I was invited to, I should expect my family will not like it and be mad or annoyed or insulted by me. Free will? F%&& yeah. But actions raise reactions. If you can own it, more power to you. But don't complain when people create opinions you don't like about you.

 

Women due to "the Pill" have become more sexually liberated. Women today can act more like men as regards their sexual needs.

However I see that society, hasn't really caught up fully with that.

There is still a lingering idea that women who sleep around are hos an sluts and that men who do so, are just doing what comes naturally.

Many men it appears do not want their woman to have had a varied sexual past. I guess for some <5 partners (so she is not totally inexperienced) is OK, but >20?? Er no..

How many men on here would want to accept a woman as a long term prospect, who had a lot of sexual partners? I guess few, if they were to be perfectly honest. Little has changed in that respect.

 

I know that is retrograde thinking and a traditional view, but society in general will take a long time to get used to the new role women play in it. A lot of generations will come and go before anything will fundamentally change. The seeds are sown, but it will be a long time yet before we get flowers.

[Emilia]

Where do these conclusions come from apart from your own prejudice? I've had 4 men in total ask to marry them so far, none have ever asked me the number of my sexual partners. Admittedly it's not that big a number but IME men don't play detective all that much. As long as you've had LTR experience, it's all good. You ladies are barking up the wrong tree.

[Haydn]

Where do these conclusions come from apart from your own prejudice? I've had 4 men in total ask to marry them so far, none have ever asked me the number of my sexual partners. Admittedly it's not that big a number but IME men don't play detective all that much. As long as you've had LTR experience, it's all good. You ladies are barking up the wrong tree.

 

I`ve never asked. Never even entered my mind. She`s with me and that`s it. Same for her.

[elaine567]

Where do these conclusions come from apart from your own prejudice? I've had 4 men in total ask to marry them so far, none have ever asked me the number of my sexual partners. Admittedly it's not that big a number but IME men don't play detective all that much. As long as you've had LTR experience, it's all good. You ladies are barking up the wrong tree.

 

I think you are letting your own anecdotal experience cloud your judgement.

The old double standards are alive and well.

Ariana Grande: Tearing Down Double Standards? | Dr. Jane Greer

 

Singing sensation Ariana Grande wrote an elaborate, empowering essay about male and female double standards after her split with rapper Big Sean. She said, "If a woman has a lot of sex (or any sex for that matter)... she's a 'slut.' If a man has sex.... HE'S. A. STUD. A BOSS. A KING.... If a woman even TALKS about sex openly... she is shamed!" Ariana touched on one of many examples of double standards when it comes to dating and relationships, and is hitting a nerve because what she wrote about does often seem to be true.

[SummerDreams]

But if it helps your selection, why the angry thread? Surely the rest of us are doing you a service helping to pick conservative men? Why change something that works? Unless men aren't as conservative as you would wish them to be. Can't think a different reason.

 

The whole thread starting when a woman who admits she is sexually liberated complained about men not taking her seriously or utlimately respecting her. My reaction to this is, you can't go against the society norm and then complain for it. It's like driving on the opposite side of the highway and complain why the other cars go the other way than you. But this is the way they are supposed to go. Either you are a rebel and suck it up or you follow the society's rules.

 

And the reason I'm somewhat angry is cause this kind of women destroy the rest of women's reputation. Men consider every existing woman an easy one and they don't give the effort they should to win a respectable woman.

[SummerDreams]

I know that is retrograde thinking and a traditional view, but society in general will take a long time to get used to the new role women play in it. A lot of generations will come and go before anything will fundamentally change. The seeds are sown, but it will be a long time yet before we get flowers.

 

And maybe it takes so long cause in people's minds, even in most women's minds, this is how society should be. I never thought of traditional ways being something bad. The only people who consider it bad are the people (men and women) who want to be driven by their horniness and get mad at people who don't respect them for that.