Deep seated "issues"...

[Gloria25]

VI think I'm beating a dead horse here, but here goes...

 

Do some people have no comeback from childhood issues - which make them undateable and/or fixated on a particular type of person they wanna date?

 

I mean, some of us come from the Brady Bunch - where we probably got every thing from our family unit that made us healthy enough to develop into adults. Shoot, probably some of were attractive, sociable, jocks and had a breeze through our journey into adulthood.

 

Some of us are late bloomers. To the point where finally by our 30's (or even later) it all starts coming together for us.

 

But how do you know if a guy/gal is still "evolving" or you just have to walk away from them cuz it's a hopeless situation?

 

I'll use me as an example: My dad was blacker than black and was physically and emotionally abusive. So, I've never been attracted to black men, will not go to "therapy" to change that, so that's that...

 

I'll use Don Jon the movie as an example. He was a douche who was self-absorbed, and could never "connect" when having sex till years later when Julianne Moore pushed herself on him and "turned" him.

 

I'll use an example of a guy who called my fav podcaster. Two failed marriages - both to women who were "uninterested" in him (who he picked on purpose) cuz he had a domineering mother. So, he sought out women who wouldn't ever have a "hold" on him. In his case, he got defensive and not sure if he bothered to follow through with going to a therapist after the call.

 

So, again, my question is how to tell the difference in someone who is simply "evolving", "growing" vs a "lost case" that you gotta walk away from?

[Ninjainpajamas]

I don't really think there is such a thing as a "healthy person", regardless of how "perfect" or ideal their childhood was...there is always something that could and does affect that person from an outside influence, another family member...you have no way of understanding the psychological and traumatic affect it has on that individual.

 

For example, even people who've grown up in a very sheltered and protective bubble, you would think they are healthy...however when they come out into the "real world", they find people behaving and acting in ways that are completely beyond their expectation or interpretation...kind of like how young girls love blindingly believing that the boys are actually in love with them rather than realizing how sexually driven it is more than anything else.

 

These kinds of realizations can have shattering and altering affects on the mind, especially when you had no way of anticipating them and still have this idealistic fantasy of a world in your mind...in your world, whatever has not happened to you, to an extent...does not exist. And whatever has happened, is your reality to your perception.

 

People who didn't grow up in ideal circumstances, they can suffer traumatic damage from childhood that I'd say for the greater majority of people does not go away.

 

Every person, no matter how old can recite some unpleasant and traumatic experience that profoundly affected them as a child that still kind of chains them to that experience emotionally and very likely alters their behavior...depends on the individual how much.

 

For example, many people are scarred by the behavior of their parents...so you usually get two kinds of people, those who are looking for someone completely OPPOSITE of whom they remember in their memory as the kind of individual that scarred them....as every association is made as some kind of warning system to them. Or they simply gravitate towards the kind of person that is nearly EXACTLY like the person that traumatized them, kind of trying to repair that old wound by repairing a situation that reflects the past...as when you are a child, it's a very helpless and vulnerable time, but now you want to have some kind of power and control over your life.

 

As far as assisting people with these issues...you can support them but you cannot resolve it for them.

 

I think at best, if you were some very skilled therapist, counselor or psychologist...world renowned, you might yourself be able to have at least some kind of impact in that relationship, but being that these issues have nothing to do with love or relationships (other than having an affect on them), they truly are personal and should be handled by someone who is not romantically or emotionally involved with the person, as too many of those factors come into play during any kind of "self-work" and complicate the situation greatly as relationship issues are crisscrossed with the real personal issues.

 

However I think the myth is that people think that they can actually play a leading or head role in this process to the extent of "fixing" the other persons problem alone, which is just not going to happen but I think for a lot of women is about gaining a victory they had lost in the past with their parents or somewhere in their childhood.

 

The majority of people are inevitably doing as much damage trying to "help" someone as they are trying to repair them, they are not aware of how to conduct themselves or where the problem truly lies as people tend to take things at face value and on the superficial level, everyone takes things personal according to their emotions and perceptions and thinks its all about them, or love, or something to do with themselves...personal issues are within the person themselves, you are not the cause or consequence of that, as highly as you'd like to thing of yourself in terms of significance...it's why if you date a person with serious issues, they will still have them in the end unless they made some kind of choice to tackle their own personal issues, within themselves.

 

Bottom line: You assess where a person is and consider whether now they are at a good enough place for a relationship and whether you two are truly compatible right now. People need to stop looking at people and relationships like projects, chances are you're not going to fix much, you'll just both grow up and the dynamic will automatically change on it's own as people tend to change a little bit with age. You don't try to fix or root out the deep seated issues, you recognize them and if they impact your relationship too significantly based on your own happiness and compatibility with that person, then you leave...but you can usually tell if it's the kind of person that refuses to change and grow and is just stuck, and someone who is working on themselves and committed to improving themselves and their lives...those are two pretty significantly different people, the latter being the minority unfortunately.

[gaius]

I didn't see Don Jon, but a situation like that strikes me as unrealistic. =/ I don't ever see base attraction patterns changing in people, you pretty much like what you like and that's it. So you make your best move on a person, and once they devolve into becoming totally unresponsive then you move on.

[salparadise]

I'm going to try and keep this brief, but it's a topic I've done quite a bit of research on. I'll give you two good references if you're inclined to pursue in more depth.

 

First, it's a long-held and widely accepted theory in psychology that the mother-infant bond is crucial to normal development. We know that babies whose physical needs (oxygen, warmth, nutrition) are met, but who are deprived of any emotional nurturing (human touch, bonding, etc.) develop a condition called "failure to thrive" and will die. Babies who enjoy a healthy, loving bond with the mother (or a surrogate) will develop normally, other conditions notwithstanding. But between these two extremes it's not uncommon to find incomplete bonding, or the bond can be interrupted at an inopportune time. And just as there is a window of opportunity for a child to effortlessly learn languages, in human development there is a timeline wherein stages of psychological development naturally occur.

 

From birth to around ages 3-5 is when the sense of self and personality develop. If the conditions for normal development are not present during that window of opportunity, it's highly improbable that the child will simply pick it up at a later time and continue to develop normally. Disrupted or incomplete bonding with the mother is thought to result in either arrested development or regression to an earlier stage of development. Dr. Jurgen Ruesch published this paper, which focuses on infantile personalty and somatizaton disorders, in which he goes into some depth on this theory. Freud also recognized it in his work with histrionic personalities.

 

Harville Hendrix' book entitled "Getting the Love We Want" describes another aspect of the connection between early childhood, parental relationship and romantic love. He believes that as children we are all forced to "split off" aspects of the self in order to gain the love and acceptance of our parents. Later in life we seek a spouse who reminds us of the imago (composite image) of the parents and our primary caregivers because we believe that this is the person who is able to reunite us with the split off parts of ourselves, therefore making us whole again. Of course this is not actually possible, so we end up being disappointed with our partner and the unmet expectation turns into resentment and disillusionment, and ultimately sabotaging of the relationship.

 

And before I start seeing posts saying, "wrong, this doesn't apply to me," I'll just say OK fine. I'm not trying to convince––everyone is free to believe what they will. I'm just citing a couple of resources for anyone who's interested.

 

Ruesch - The Infantile Personality

Hendrix - Getting the Love You Want

[Got it]

Sure I think anyone is worthy of a partner. But is what they offer coupled with a long list of issues? That will have a big impact. I think anyone can change, evolve, etc. but have to be willing to do so.

 

So short answer, someone like that latter, would not to me, be worth the effort. Having come from a family of issues, and having worked through mine, I have on interest in trying to help someone through ones so severe. I just wouldn't think they are worth the effort based on a shallow attachment of casual dating.

 

I am a big advocate of therapy so with those issues I would want the person to get professional help.

[preraph]

I mean, there have been people I have influenced for the better who had some bad issues, but it was more supportive motivating type work. Like finding something special in a young gay kid who was being abused at home and telling him how entertaining and funny he was and that he shouldn't waste his talent and paying for acting classes for him. It was a real boost to his self-esteem. He always had this "trapped" mentality, but it gave him a window of hope and we were best friends until his death. But my help didn't help any of his psychosexual issues he has from the abuse.

 

One bf of mine was college age and he became depressed and felt pressured to choose his life path. His main interest was music. That was his passion and he had a quick agility with it. We were LDR but visited each other. Then one day I got this very depressing letter from him. You could tell he was being pressured into a conventional direction by his parents (no big surprise) and he was just so depressed about everything and his future that I was really worried about it. He was being pressured to become a cop. I had been lucky to find my niche and be working doing what I loved, but just in the early stages of it, managing record stores. We were both from the middle of nowhere, but I had already started living my dreams, flying to see my favorite bands, the things I cared about. In fact, I'd met him at an out-of-town concert of three incredible prog bands.

 

So I wrote him back and just tried to show him that he could be whatever he wanted to be and just told him it was his life. His parents had their own lives to live as they chose, and couldn't dictate his life. I reinforced how great I thought his music acumen was and all that.

 

Well, I lost track of him for awhile after that. It was mostly because he got a local girlfriend. But I caught up with him decades later after the advent of internet made that possible and he was the head of a big radio conglomerate. He'd found an opportunity to start dj'ing at his college radio, and his career bloomed from there. He credits me for inspiring and believing in him, which feel really good all these years later.

 

But when it comes to these hard-wired issues from childhood, it's best tackled by a pro, and the person has to be willing. You can make them feel better about themselves. I have one friend who had abuse issues that I did make feel better and like it was not her fault and all that and then she went into therapy. Now she's bipolar so she still has some bad issues. It's really hard to completely solve any of that stuff. It's valuable if you are the first person to see that that person has problems and can make them aware of it. But a lot of that never goes away. A person can be well aware of their problems and rationally know, for example, they shouldn't choose a certain type of mate, but knowing it and stopping the urge to do it are two separate things.

 

Always help people when you can, but don't do it with the end goal being that you can change them into something palatable for YOUR future. Help them and set them free.

[elaine567]

So, again, my question is how to tell the difference in someone who is simply "evolving", "growing" vs a "lost case" that you gotta walk away from?

 

I think you just have to take people at face value and assume no change for the "better", else, I guess, you will most likely be disappointed.

Taking on "projects" is never a good idea IMV.

Some truly do not need "fixed" (the problem is in your own head), some cannot see that they need "fixed", some do not want "fixed", and some are simply not fixable.

[Itspointless]

Taking on "projects" is never a good idea IMV.

Some truly do not need "fixed" (the problem is in your own head), some cannot see that they need "fixed", some do not want "fixed", and some are simply not fixable.

^^ this.

 

Search for someone who is just as willing to reflect on himself as (hopefully) you are (we all are imperfect) and support them just as they support you walking your path in life. It (unfortunately) is not to us to model someone into the person we want to have, that are our imperfections talking.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

So, again, my question is how to tell the difference in someone who is simply "evolving", "growing" vs a "lost case" that you gotta walk away from?

 

LOL, the bitch in me wants to say "You can't!" and that you should always walk away and declare all the troubled souls "a lost cause" regardless. But, that wouldn't be very helpful I suppose....

 

So, IMO it all depends on their age and how far past the “acknowledgment” stage they are. Because, well, some people don’t ever quite move past the “I acknowledge that I have issues I need to deal with” phase and perpetually stay stuck there. They exist in a sort of bubble where just kinda shuffling their feet and saying "Yeah, I'm pretty f*ked up from XYZ events" is 'enough'. Or more simply, they're like alcoholics who think just admitting they're an alcoholic is sufficient, even though they're still downing a 5th of vodka at their work desk.

 

You can't help those kind of people and you shouldn't even try because all you'll wind up doing is breaking off little pieces of yourself trying to "stick around" or "help them though it" for nothing. They’re either not emotionally equipped to or have no real intention of dealing with their issues - hell, some people don't even recognize they have issues to begin with - and thus staying around would be a futile endeavor.

 

However, a good indication of someone who is "evolving" rather than someone who is a lost cause, is the kinds of strides they've taken to "fix" themselves independent of you. They have to have 1) accepted they have problems and 2) be actively working on them. At least a little bit before you came along.

 

No one is perfect and we all have issues of our own, so I'm not saying we should just summarily dismiss any and everyone who doesn't have their s*t completely together, but most of us aren't therapists and it's emotionally draining trying to prop on a broken individual. Most of us can and very well should strive for better partners than those who could be considered "work". People aren't projects and it's not really your duty to "fix" anyone. Your prospective mate should never feel like a full time job.

[regine_phalange]

I think the ones who evolve are the ones who at some point look at their selves with brutal honesty.

[salparadise]

...all you'll wind up doing is breaking off little pieces of yourself trying to "stick around" or "help them though it" for nothing. They’re either not emotionally equipped...

 

People aren't projects and it's not really your duty to "fix" anyone. Your prospective mate should never feel like a full time job.

 

^ Yes. There is a huge difference between acceptance of a healthy person's imperfections vs. endeavoring to rescue a broken soul––not the same thing at all. Thinking you can heal someone by filling their void with selfless love and devotion, with some expectation that they will be eternally grateful and reciprocate is a fools game. They bleed you dry, and when you're drained to the point that you have nothing left they kick you to the curb and target a new fool with a full reservoir.

 

Everyone needs to figure out how to spot emotional vampires, and understand how easily they target and mesmerize the naive caregiver types. They can see what you need the most––attention, affection, sex––and lay it on thicker than jelly. Then they test to make sure the target is sufficiently hooked, and that's when well, material for chapter II.

 

What you need to know up front... that feel good stuff on the front end is only for acquisition, and you can't fix'em no matter how much of yourself you give away.