Does anybody here agree with this quote that women are in charge of dating?

June 7, 2015

Okay this is how I'm interpreting this. Tool you don't come off as bitter or hateful to me. Only thing strange is you seem to feel enlightened that you don't have take care of a woman or her kids that aren't yours. Okay that's good, but who told you had to get married and be responsible for that?

BTW Rose, I've meet a feminist either. I didn't even know what that was until I got on here. All this feminist, PUA, MGTOW thing is strange to me.

Edited June 7, 2015 by jay1983

June 7, 2015

I have never heard of MOTGW except on the Internet. Irl guys or girls who want to be single just are without a big axe to grind against the other gender. I mean I know a single straight guy who has no interest in having a girlfriend. He would still walk me to my car at night or buy me a bottle of water if I forgot my purse without any rancor thank goodness!!! And no he takes no pill or is no knight (more Internet hooey!!). He is just a good person. He's coming over to roast hot dogs with us in a few minutes in fact!

MGTOW (at least the way I understand it) is not something that is universally defined. It's more of an individual thing.

I consider myself MGTOW (men going their own way), but I don't really have anything against women (besides acknowledging what they're really about) and I actually still actively date women. Just because I'm MGTOW doesn't mean that I don't date. It just means that I do my own thing and am not bound by the expectations of society.

In general though, the MGTOW "movement" (so to speak) seem anything but. Would you consider a bunch of guys that get together anonymously to bash women as doing their own thing? I wouldn't.

June 7, 2015

but ... but ... but I wrote that I DO need my fiance and I need men in general, in the world and in my own life!!! But I have to say that you sound like an awful boyfriend and I am really worried about how your daughter is internalized all your hatred and prejudice against women I hope she has some positive male figures in her life that love and like women!!!

I have never heard of MOTGW except on the Internet. Irl guys or girls who want to be single just are without a big axe to grind against the other gender. I mean I know a single straight guy who has no interest in having a girlfriend. He would still walk me to my car at night or buy me a bottle of water if I forgot my purse without any rancor thank goodness!!! And no he takes no pill or is no knight (more Internet hooey!!). He is just a good person. He's coming over to roast hot dogs with us in a few minutes in fact!

Even though we butt heads, I do like you Rose. I believe you're a great partner to your fiancee.

With that being said, you have no idea of the dynamic between my GF and I. I flat out told her that I won't pay another adult's way through this world. She said "good, because I want to stand on my own two feet." And she actually said that she doesn't believe I've marriage before I ever did. She was even scared when she talked about it, she was afraid that it would be a deal breaker for me. I laughed and said I don't believe in marriage either. The look of relief on her face was palpable.

But most importantly, I told her she is free to walk away from me at any time. I said the last thing I want is to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me in return, and that each one of us makes the choice to be together because it's what we want. She completely agreed.

See, I found a woman who agrees with me. Her ex was in complete control of her money. She had to fight to get it back. When I said "my money is money, your money is your money", she told me she loved me.

The bottom line is she is an adult, and I expect her to behave like one. I told her I want a person who is capable of taking care of themselves and chooses to walk alongside me because of who I am, and not the things I can provide her. She understood.

To this day, she still chooses to be with me. Feel sorry for her all you like...I know for a fact she would laugh at pity she neither needs nor wants. She's tough like that.

As for my little girl, all I need to say is that she always has been, and always will be, my number one priority.

Edited June 7, 2015 by toolforgrowth

June 7, 2015

MGTOW (at least the way I understand it) is not something that is universally defined. It's more of an individual thing.

I consider myself MGTOW (men going their own way), but I don't really have anything against women (besides acknowledging what they're really about) and I actually still actively date women. Just because I'm MGTOW doesn't mean that I don't date. It just means that I do my own thing and am not bound by the expectations of society.

In general though, the MGTOW "movement" (so to speak) seem anything but. Would you consider a bunch of guys that get together anonymously to bash women as doing their own thing? I wouldn't.

100% this. I don't bash women, and I've repeatedly said that I like women. I simply reject marriage, traditional male gender roles, and the societal expectations that I as a male am "supposed" to follow.

I don't see how that's women bashing or misogynist. Never once did I say that women aren't capable, or that they're evil, etc.

A man who goes his own way, by definition, rejects all expectations placed upon him by society, and accepts no blame for the issues of others.

June 7, 2015

Okay this is how I'm interpreting this. Tool you don't come off as bitter or hateful to me. Only thing strange is you seem to feel enlightened that you don't have take care of a woman or her kids that aren't yours. Okay that's good, but who told you had to get married and be responsible for that?

BTW Rose, I've meet a feminist either. I didn't even know what that was until I got on here. All this feminist, PUA, MGTOW thing is strange to me.

Societal expectations. I've met plenty of women who have the attitude of "I need a man to take care of me and my kids". Society even praises white knights for doing so, in spite of the fact they pay and raise kids that aren't theirs and often have lackluster marriages and sex lives. I used to be one of them.

You've never been told to "man up and get married"? I have. I laughed in their face. I tried OLD for a while, but quickly stopped when I came across the phrase "I'm looking for a man to take care of me and my kids" far too many times. The concept of the mothers providing for their kids themselves never even entered their minds.

By no means am I claiming that all women are like that. Unfortunately, enough of them are to to make it an issue. If even 33% are like that, that's still one out of three. So it's enough of a number to be aware of.

June 7, 2015

Societal expectations. I've met plenty of women who have the attitude of "I need a man to take care of me and my kids". Society even praises white knights for doing so, in spite of the fact they pay and raise kids that aren't theirs and often have lackluster marriages and sex lives. I used to be one of them.

You've never been told to "man up and get married"? I have. I laughed in their face. I tried OLD for a while, but quickly stopped when I came across the phrase "I'm looking for a man to take care of me and my kids" far too many times. The concept of the mothers providing for their kids themselves never even entered their minds.

By no means am I claiming that all women are like that. Unfortunately, enough of them are to to make it an issue. If even 33% are like that, that's still one out of three. So it's enough of a number to be aware of.

Yeah man, but you honestly bought into that? I just tell em "yeah okay" then go about what I was doing.

Most dudes grow outta that white knight thing into their 20's. Most dudes ain't goin marry a gal who's looking for somebody to take care of her kids.

IDK man, it seems silly, but maybe what your doing does need to be said out loud, it just seems like common knowledge to me, but I'm probably a different type of person from a different socioeconomic background than a lot of people.

June 7, 2015

100% this. I don't bash women, and I've repeatedly said that I like women. I simply reject marriage, traditional male gender roles, and the societal expectations that I as a male am "supposed" to follow.

Fair enough.

In my opinion, there's no point in getting married if you're not going to have a family. If you plan on having children, it might be a good idea for their sense of security.

If a couple doesn't plan on having kids, it really doesn't make any sense to be bound legally to each other for pretty much no reason.

I see these kinds of marriages and think that perhaps the couple has not thought their decision through and are simply getting married because it's what they're "supposed" to do.

I don't see how that's women bashing or misogynist. Never once did I say that women aren't capable, or that they're evil, etc.

A man who goes his own way, by definition, rejects all expectations placed upon him by society, and accepts no blame for the issues of others.

I never said that you are bashing women. I said that the MGTOW forums definitely do. Have you ever been to them? It's pretty bad.

Societal expectations. I've met plenty of women who have the attitude of "I need a man to take care of me and my kids". Society even praises white knights for doing so, in spite of the fact they pay and raise kids that aren't theirs and often have lackluster marriages and sex lives. I used to be one of them.

Personally, I would NEVER seriously date a woman with kids or put my resources into a child that isn't proven to be biologically mine. I'll fool around with single mothers if they're hot enough though.

You've never been told to "man up and get married"? I have. I laughed in their face. I tried OLD for a while, but quickly stopped when I came across the phrase "I'm looking for a man to take care of me and my kids" far too many times. The concept of the mothers providing for their kids themselves never even entered their minds.

OLD is the bottom of the barrel, especially for men.

I've never been told to man up and get married. I have been told that I'm really immature for wanting to have a good time though.

It doesn't bother me. I'll take my money and my maturity level and settle down with a hot 20 something when I'm a 30 something (since men are able to reproduce far longer than women). And I will have fun in the mean time.

By no means am I claiming that all women are like that. Unfortunately, enough of them are to to make it an issue. If even 33% are like that, that's still one out of three. So it's enough of a number to be aware of.

Meh. Good luck to them and the poor saps that they rope in.

June 7, 2015

I've never been to the forums, but I've seen some the videos and scrolled down to the comment section and yeah they bash women hardcore.

June 7, 2015

Yeah man, but you honestly bought into that? I just tell em "yeah okay" then go about what I was doing.

Most dudes grow outta that white knight thing into their 20's. Most dudes ain't goin marry a gal who's looking for somebody to take care of her kids.

IDK man, it seems silly, but maybe what your doing does need to be said out loud, it just seems like common knowledge to me, but I'm probably a different type of person from a different socioeconomic background than a lot of people.

I did. Partly because of how I was raised, and partly due to the feminist ideals of the 1990's when I was growing up. My dad loves being the traditional caregiver, and he raised my half brother (my mom's from a prior marriage) as his own. More power to him. But my mom still cheated on him, as did my xWW cheat on me, and I also raised her daughter from a prior marriage as my own. I've seen and directly experienced what happens to white knights.

The thing is, not all men grow out of white knighthood. A female poster a couple pages back was even saying how awesome white knights are. Of course she would think that...they value women more than themselves. And she may have spoken with the best of intentions (which I personally think she was). But she's never been on the opposite end of that. To give your all, trying to be a good man, like my father and I, only to get completely shat upon.

My goal isn't to change the minds of women. It's to change the minds of my fellow men. To share my experiences, illustrate the dangers of marriage in today's society, and to lead them away from white knighthood. In the aggregate, women don't respect white knights. It's a fruitless endeavour. Why bang your head against the same wall over and over expecting different results? That literally is insanity.

June 7, 2015

I've never been to the forums, but I've seen some the videos and scrolled down to the comment section and yeah they bash women hardcore.

To be fair, this is true. I don't believe women are inferior, nor would I ever tell a woman to get back in the kitchen. The kitchen is MY domain.

What resonates with me is I am the sovereign of my life, and that marriage is to be avoided due to the financial dangers involved and the fact my daughter was taken from me. This is not hyperbole; my xWW took my daughter, cleaned out my house, extorted money from me, and it was all done legally. This is a man's reality today. They are not afraid to speak out about it, and I'm grateful for it.

But once one of them says "get back in the kitchen wh*re" they lose me. To be fair, not all women are good. They are like any group of people, including men: a few winners and a whole lot of losers. Not every woman has your best interests at heart. Again, that's not misogyny; that's reality. But I have never claimed all women are bad, and never would. Some of them are awesome. My GF, my lady friend who introduced us, and two of my best friends who are female immediately come to mind.

June 7, 2015

Yeah man, but you honestly bought into that? I just tell em "yeah okay" then go about what I was doing.

Most dudes grow outta that white knight thing into their 20's. Most dudes ain't goin marry a gal who's looking for somebody to take care of her kids.

IDK man, it seems silly, but maybe what your doing does need to be said out loud, it just seems like common knowledge to me, but I'm probably a different type of person from a different socioeconomic background than a lot of people.

We also grew up in the internet age. I think that poster is a bit older so we likely had resources that he didn't.

I got all of the white knight crap out of my system in high school (largely due to what I learned on the internet and people that I met from various forums....and, yes, I mean actually met them in person). I had a few flare-ups in my early 20s, but it was completely out of my system by the time I was 27 or so.

It seems like the best time in a man's life is when he grows out of white knighting, so long as he does not become bitter, which can be difficult to do.

June 7, 2015

What resonates with me is I am the sovereign of my life, and that marriage is to be avoided due to the financial dangers involved and the fact my daughter was taken from me. This is not hyperbole; my xWW took my daughter, cleaned out my house, extorted money from me, and it was all done legally. This is a man's reality today. They are not afraid to speak out about it, and I'm grateful for it.

In the world that we live in, a man CAN get married, but it's best to marry someone that is deeply invested in a stable, high-paying career (and makes as much or more money than you). That way, she is not very likely to leave that career and if she decides to go crazy and divorce you, then that's money in your pocket.

June 7, 2015

I think you have a lot of merit.

Well I have a question for you and I'm not going by exactly what you've said, but I'm going off of the whole manosphere concept of the red pill.

What would you say to your daughter if she asks you "daddy am I hypergamous, am I programmed to go after a man's money and his resources? Am I what they talk about on red pill and blue pill and MGTOW."

What would you say to her?

June 7, 2015

We also grew up in the internet age. I think that poster is a bit older so we likely had resources that he didn't.

I got all of the white knight crap out of my system in high school (largely due to what I learned on the internet and people that I met from various forums....and, yes, I mean actually met them in person). I had a few flare-ups in my early 20s, but it was completely out of my system by the time I was 27 or so.

It seems like the best time in a man's life is when he grows out of white knighting, so long as he does not become bitter, which can be difficult to do.

I grew up really poor, I'm from the hood. I never had a computer with Internet til I was in my early 20's and didn't really browsing the web til smart phones( I just could sit in front of a computer for more than a few minutes after work) all that white knight sh*t was frowned upon. Take care of another man's kids and so on, We called that captain "captain save a hoe" this sh*t is pretty standard.

June 7, 2015

I grew up really poor, I'm from the hood. I never had a computer with Internet til I was in my early 20's and didn't really browsing the web til smart phones( I just could sit in front of a computer for more than a few minutes after work) all that white knight sh*t was frowned upon. Take care of another man's kids and so on, We called that captain "captain save a hoe" this sh*t is pretty standard.

Yeah true.

I grew up upper middle class. So everyone that I knew was all like "Treat women with respect and all women are angels". Luckily, the internet prevented me from making some stupid mistakes.

But I have plenty of friends that grew up in rough neighborhoods (some that even grew up in third world countries). These guys seem to innately know the deal when it comes to women and don't buy any of the BS that we commonly see thrown around.

June 7, 2015

I wasn't bemoaning that women don't need men. I was stating a fact. Women do not need men for anything. And I think it's FANTASTIC. That means I am off the hook completely. You're a single mom and can't figure out a way to pay for your kids? Your problem. You're afraid to walk to your car at night? Your problem. You cheated and you're in an unhappy marriage? Your problem.

These are female problems. They are therefore yours to deal with. I don't have to give a damn. All I have to assume responsibility for is my daughter and myself. In this modern day and age, I can completely reject all traditional male gender roles. I'm nobody's breadwinner except my own. I hold people accountable for their actions. And I reject the notion that anybody is owed anything simply because of their sex organs.

For the record, I am 35. I was a blue pill swallowing White Knight in my 20's and I was completely miserable. Today, my life has improved in every single measurable way.

Men don't grow out of MGTOW. They grow INTO MGTOW as a result of their life experiences.

Men go their own way when they're in their prime and feel a woman is holding them down. You aren't thinking long term my friend. My guess is as your life circumstances change (and they will) your attitude will change.

June 7, 2015

I've never been to the forums, but I've seen some the videos and scrolled down to the comment section and yeah they bash women hardcore.

That is why PUA stuff and Red Pills stuff and Men Doing their Own Crap stuff is for entertainment purposes only. I like the support I get from specific problems but I only participate in these weird debates when I'm bored. If anyone in my real life knew I talked about PUA and Red Pills they would think I was nuts. LOL

June 7, 2015

It's to change the minds of my fellow men. To share my experiences, illustrate the dangers of marriage in today's society, and to lead them away from white knighthood. In the aggregate, women don't respect white knights. It's a fruitless endeavour. Why bang your head against the same wall over and over expecting different results? That literally is insanity.

I don't know the whole story of why your wife cheated on you. I doubt you were this outstanding husband and she said "Hmmmm..life is so good how can I mess it up?" From your posts it doesn't sound like you want to take any responsibility for your marriage going south.

In any case, your "cause" to save men from themselves is a bit hateful. I hope you find more positive things to do with your time as you do seem intelligent; under the anger is probably a really good man.

June 7, 2015

The more I read here, the more I love my sugar babies.

I think I should start a list of pains than can be avoided by simply changing the power equation with money. Way too young and hot for me is now the norm, and most importantly, nice. What more can a man ask.

June 7, 2015

I did. Partly because of how I was raised, and partly due to the feminist ideals of the 1990's when I was growing up. My dad loves being the traditional caregiver, and he raised my half brother (my mom's from a prior marriage) as his own. More power to him. But my mom still cheated on him, as did my xWW cheat on me, and I also raised her daughter from a prior marriage as my own. I've seen and directly experienced what happens to white knights.

The thing is, not all men grow out of white knighthood. A female poster a couple pages back was even saying how awesome white knights are. Of course she would think that...they value women more than themselves. And she may have spoken with the best of intentions (which I personally think she was). But she's never been on the opposite end of that. To give your all, trying to be a good man, like my father and I, only to get completely shat upon.

My goal isn't to change the minds of women. It's to change the minds of my fellow men. To share my experiences, illustrate the dangers of marriage in today's society, and to lead them away from white knighthood. In the aggregate, women don't respect white knights. It's a fruitless endeavour. Why bang your head against the same wall over and over expecting different results? That literally is insanity.

It isn't that women don't respect white knights. It's that white knights are looking for damsels in distress. They are not seeking out women that aren't looking for someone to solve their problems. And why do we solve people's problems? Because it makes us feel good and important. But you are already targeting a less than healthy person because they are looking for external forces to do what they should be doing on their own. And so you are then with someone that wants others to do for them which continues. And then you could become a problem that they seek out another white knight to "save" them from.

So I have ZERO interest in white knights. I am more than capable to solve my problems and the idea that a guy thinks I need that from him, I find, insulting and infantile.

What I told my husband when we were dating, " I don't want you to need me. I just want you to want me".

June 7, 2015

I don't want you to need me. I just want you to want me".

If you love someone with all of your heart, you need them.

Conversely, I want tacos for dinner. Not the same thing. Are you a taco?

June 7, 2015

I think some women have an irrational fear of the so-called white knight syndrome because it represents patriarchy to them.

And let's see, if I fall in love with someone who happens to need my help, I should what, walk away or be a White Knight. What some people are calling White Knight sounds to me like what I call having a backbone. It is one thing to seek out desperate women. But not all women want to rule the world and be in charge.

Many men are problem solvers by nature. And this is a famous point of conflict in married couples - a women wants her husband to listen and provide emotional support, but instead he tries to solve her problem, which just pisses her off. It isn't that all men are trying to be in charge or save anyone, we just want to solve problems. In some ways it is the male equivalent of the nesting instinct.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Robert Z

June 7, 2015

There is nothing basically wrong with trying to save or help another human being. Sometimes it is genuine need and with a little help everything turns out well.

I read about women here doing it all the time - saving their men, so it is not just men saving women.

BUT where it gets messed up is when there are ulterior motives and truly mixed up individuals.

KISA - wants a weak woman to control and to earn kudos in society, "He saved her what a wonderful man... " Weak woman is abused and becomes even more helpless.

DID - wants a man to save her and to look after her +/- kids, but she has no love or respect for him and treats him abominably. He is abused and ultimately broken.

A person who is mentally ill or has a personality disorder - needs to be taken care of. Carer puts up with anything and everything to "cure" the "patient". Patient can end up controlling the carer and/or send them crazy too.

He needs me, he loves me, he cannot live without me and no matter how bad it gets, or how abusive he is, I have to save him.

June 7, 2015

I think you have a lot of merit.

Well I have a question for you and I'm not going by exactly what you've said, but I'm going off of the whole manosphere concept of the red pill.

What would you say to your daughter if she asks you "daddy am I hypergamous, am I programmed to go after a man's money and his resources? Am I what they talk about on red pill and blue pill and MGTOW."

What would you say to her?

Very interesting you should ask this question. Just yesterday morning my daughter, who is 7, came up to me and told me she was hungry. She's going through a growth spurt right now, so she's constantly hungry. I told her all of her options, and she said she wanted toast. She makes herself toast at her mom's all the time. So I said okay, you know where the bread and jam are and how to make toast.

She looked right in my face and said "I want YOU to make it."

I said, "No. You make yourself toast at your mother's all the time. You're a big girl, you can do it."

She said, "But I want YOU to make it."

Again, I said "No. I've taught you how to cook your own sausage and to make Alfredo. You can make your own toast. It's not a man's job to wait on you. I'm happy to make things for you that you don't know how to make (such as things that require a cutting knife), but you're a big girl and can make toast on your own."

She gave me her "I'm thoroughly dissatisfied with this" look, but got up and made herself toast.

That is behavior she learned from her mother. And I nicely but firmly put my foot down.

I cook and bake with my daughter regularly. I was the cook when I was married and still cook a lot to this day. I include her as much as possible when I'm in the kitchen and she loves it, that's one of our daddy-daughter activities. I think it's a valuable skill for any person to learn. And I do stuff with her and for her all the time. But she's finishing first grade; if she's old enough to heat up a pan and cook a sausage (with me supervising of course) then she can make herself a piece of toast.

It's my job to detect entitled behavior in her now before she ever gets that old and put a stop to it. Kids thrive on boundaries. As long as I do MY job as a father and show her what a strong man is like, who is independent and can lovingly tell her no when she is being unreasonable, then I don't worry that such an event will come to pass.

After she made toast I gave her a hug and kiss and told her I knew she could do it. She smiled and hugged and kissed me right back.

June 7, 2015

Men go their own way when they're in their prime and feel a woman is holding them down. You aren't thinking long term my friend. My guess is as your life circumstances change (and they will) your attitude will change.

I'm absolutely thinking long term. I'm looking to when I retire in about 28 years. I want to be set for life; house paid off, well over thirty years of pension built up, and about 25 years of 401k contribution established. I want to travel the world and live like a king until the day I die when I retire.

I'm not going to be one of those people approaching retirement age who have no idea what they're going to do. I won't be swimming in debt. The only way I can be certain of that is to be in complete control of my finances, with no other human being having their finger in my pot. Marriage puts all of that at risk.

To quote you from an earlier post on this thread, you're welcome to your opinion even though it's wrong.

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Does anybody here agree with this quote that women are in charge of dating?

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