Does anybody here agree with this quote that women are in charge of dating?

[Brigit]

Because every KISA man I've ever known, myself included when I was married and behaved as such, had that experience. We base our perceptions upon our experiences...that's all we can do.

 

Sounds like you were a good man who had a bad experience that left you jaded.

[toolforgrowth]

I need men especially one in particular but I like men and would hate the world without men and guess what I am even a feminist!! Did you know that adults who can take care of themselves can still need each other and it can even be healthy? It's true!! that is A-OK by me, but I have a man in my life who does feel responsibility for my well being! It's reciprocal. I guess you haven't experienced anything like this so far in your life and it sounds like it's not likely to happen but JSYK your experience is not exactly universal!!

 

Then you are a different feminist from most I have encountered. I acknowledge that some individuals do not fit the collective aggregate.

 

If you man has chosen to accept responsibility for your well being, then that's his choice. I do not. I accept responsibility for my daughter only. My GF is 100% responsible for herself in every way; I don't pay her bills, assume responsibility for her kids, and have placed the onus entirely on her for her security.

 

There is no amount of reciprocity that is worth the money I lost during my marriage and divorce by being the breadwinner. Now I get to keep all the bread I win. It's pretty awesome.

 

I never said my experience was universal. But it is extremely common. It happens to men all the time.

[toolforgrowth]

Sounds like you were a good man who had a bad experience that left you jaded.

 

Marriage is the ultimate punishment for men in today's society whose only crime was being male.

 

The real issue is that my experience is in no way singular. It happens to men all the time.

[Brigit]

Marriage is the ultimate punishment for men in today's society whose only crime was being male.

 

The real issue is that my experience is in no way singular. It happens to men all the time.

 

Wow, you are really ANGRY.

 

Punishment huh?

 

Hmmmm...let's see how I punished my husband:

 

1. Got all the credit card debit under control by finding 0% financing and paying off all the cards.

 

2. Looking for the best insurance policy for home and car and figuring out how to get our rates down (Safe driver class, etc.)

 

3. Figure out the best places to shop for necessities and buying in bulk when things are on sale and keeping them organized in the pantry.

 

4. Working jobs I hated for years to bring in extra income.

 

5. Giving family money so we can have a down payment to buy a house and flipping the first house to make a profit to upgrade to a better area that will bring in much more profit in the long term.

 

6. Organizing the coupons and buying almost everything on massive clearance so the home can be decorated to look expensive but cost us next to nothing.

 

7. Keeping the house spotless, wood polished, glass shinning, clothes hung in a pleasing manner.

 

7. Keeping myself as beautiful as possible.

 

8. Keeping the garden spectacular so it looks like you're walking into a sanctuary.

 

 

....whatever.

[toolforgrowth]

Wow, you are really ANGRY.

 

Punishment huh?

 

Hmmmm...let's see how I punished my husband:

 

1. Got all the credit card debit under control by finding 0% financing and paying off all the cards.

 

2. Looking for the best insurance policy for home and car and figuring out how to get our rates down (Safe driver class, etc.)

 

3. Figure out the best places to shop for necessities and buying in bulk when things are on sale and keeping them organized in the pantry.

 

4. Working jobs I hated for years to bring in extra income.

 

5. Giving family money so we can have a down payment to buy a house and flipping the first house to make a profit to upgrade to a better area that will bring in much more profit in the long term.

 

6. Organizing the coupons and buying almost everything on massive clearance so the home can be decorated to look expensive but cost us next to nothing.

 

7. Keeping the house spotless, wood polished, glass shinning, clothes hung in a pleasing manner.

 

7. Keeping myself as beautiful as possible.

 

8. Keeping the garden spectacular so it looks like you're walking into a sanctuary.

 

 

....whatever.

 

You're entitled to your perceptions, and I'm entitled to mine. I don't expect you to understand a male's experience simply because you're not male. What's important is that the majority of males understand that this is our experience and to take action to mitigate it as much as possible.

 

And if I recall, didn't you cheat on your husband?

 

I'm not saying men are perfect. What I am saying is that women aren't perfect either, and that marriage offers a man nothing in today's society. It offers me no benefits and only liabilities and obligations. No advantages and only disadvantages.

 

Signing a marriage license is financial death, regardless of the quality of spouse I was.

 

This has nothing to do with emotion. This is the reality. I'm not the kind of person to bury my head in the sand about unpleasant facts.

 

Bringing this around back to dating, a man who is aware of that will be far more picky about the company he chooses to keep. That gives him power, the wherewithal to reject women that go against his natural survival instincts.

 

One last thing. You are interpreting my disdain for the institution of marriage as a disdain for women. That is a false comparison. I like women. I love my GF and have many female friends. I simply believe marriage is not on a man's best interest, and that all adults are ultimately self-responsible for their well being. That applies to men and women equally.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Wow, you are really ANGRY.

 

Punishment huh?

 

Hmmmm...let's see how I punished my husband:

 

No kidding! My fiance feels happy and lucky to be marrying me and I feel the same way about him! I don't punish him in the same ways you do but I do have my ways!!! There is no way taking a super polarized view about women and men can do any good at all for anybody. And I sure don't think anybody needs to get married or share anything with anybody, they are 100% free to "go their own way" because it's def for the better!! But all this negative preaching against women ... smh.

[Brigit]

You're entitled to your perceptions, and I'm entitled to mine. I don't expect you to understand a male's experience simply because you're not male. What's important is that the majority of males understand that this is our experience and to take action to mitigate it as much as possible.

 

And if I recall, didn't you cheat on your husband?

 

I'm not saying men are perfect. What I am saying is that women aren't perfect either, and that marriage offers a man nothing in today's society. It offers me no benefits and only liabilities and obligations. No advantages and only disadvantages.

 

Signing a marriage license is financial death, regardless of the quality of spouse I was.

 

This has nothing to do with emotion. This is the reality. I'm not the kind of person to bury my head in the sand about unpleasant facts.

 

Bringing this around back to dating, a man who is aware of that will be far more picky about the company he chooses to keep. That gives him power, the wherewithal to reject women that go against his natural survival instincts.

 

One last thing. You are interpreting my disdain for the institution of marriage as a disdain for women. That is a false comparison. I like women. I love my GF and have many female friends. I simply believe marriage is not on a man's best interest, and that all adults are ultimately self-responsible for their well being. That applies to men and women equally.

 

If you don't mind me asking how old are you?

[Brigit]

No kidding! My fiance feels happy and lucky to be marrying me and I feel the same way about him! I don't punish him in the same ways you do but I do have my ways!!! There is no way taking a super polarized view about women and men can do any good at all for anybody. And I sure don't think anybody needs to get married or share anything with anybody, they are 100% free to "go their own way" because it's def for the better!! But all this negative preaching against women ... smh.

 

I know "tool" (LOL) from another site and know more of his background so I do have empathy towards his plight. If he wants to go to his grave clutching his money then that is up to him.

 

But I know that I am a massive asset to marriage and if my husband divorced me I'd have plenty to offer another man.

[Rejected Rosebud]

You're entitled to your perceptions, and I'm entitled to mine. I don't expect you to understand a male's experience simply because you're not male. What's important is that the majority of males understand that this is our experience and to take action to mitigate it as much as possible.

Do you srsly think that you understand her husband and my guy better than we do?? Or that every single woman and man here on ls or in the world who enjoy our relationships are total outliers? that seems kind of presumptuous and skewed!! sorry but you really come off as just a bitter person who has no interest in sharing. I'm not talking about money or your groceries either. I don't know one "male" like you though I am sure you are not the only one, of course guys like you wouldn't be hanging around socializing with couples or women in general though!!! So no wonder I would only encounter you on the Internet!

 

 

 

I'm not saying men are perfect. What I am saying is that women aren't perfect either, and that marriage offers a man nothing in today's society. It offers me no benefits and only liabilities and obligations. No advantages and only disadvantages.

It offers him just as much as it offers me. You see you just have a perception of relationships that makes it impossible for you to be in a reciprocal one which is fine since you are "going your own way" and I'm sure that is a good choice!

[toolforgrowth]

Do you srsly think that you understand her husband and my guy better than we do?? Or that every single woman and man here on ls or in the world who enjoy our relationships are total outliers? that seems kind of presumptuous and skewed!! sorry but you really come off as just a bitter person who has no interest in sharing. I'm not talking about money or your groceries either. I don't know one "male" like you though I am sure you are not the only one, of course guys like you wouldn't be hanging around socializing with couples or women in general though!!! So no wonder I would only encounter you on the Internet!

 

 

 

It offers him just as much as it offers me. You see you just have a perception of relationships that makes it impossible for you to be in a reciprocal one which is fine since you are "going your own way" and I'm sure that is a good choice!

 

I do not. But the majority of men in aggregate today share my disdain towards the institution of marriage. That is why the majority of men today are unmarried.

 

Your assumptions are false. Two of my best friends are female. One is bisexual, the other has been in a happy relationship for years. I spend time with her and her boyfriend and their child all the time, her son is good friends with my daughter.

 

If you are equivocating the fact that I am in the internet to me beliefs, then I must ask you...why are you yourself on the internet as well? It would seem that the shoe fits you as well.

 

I am not saying that you are not reciprocal in your relationship. In fact, I believe you are. But there is a substantial number that are not, large enough to be a concern for entering into a marriage contract based on the current laws today. I don't judge anyone who chooses to enter into one. But I know it's not right for me.

 

A relationship can be reciprocal without being a married one. You are equating a relationship to a marriage, when they are not one in the same. I derive a great deal of satisfaction from my relationship. When the state gets involved in my personal life via marriage, however, I reject it.

 

Collectivism has no business in my personal affairs.

[toolforgrowth]

I know "tool" (LOL) from another site and know more of his background so I do have empathy towards his plight. If he wants to go to his grave clutching his money then that is up to him.

 

But I know that I am a massive asset to marriage and if my husband divorced me I'd have plenty to offer another man.

 

I purposefully chose that name knowing people would call me a tool. I get a kick out of it.

 

I personally think you would be much happier divorcing your husband. While I think you made a bad choice having an affair, I also think he is not compatible with you and that your instincts are correct. You'll both be happier divorcing and moving on.

 

When I was married, I worked far more than my xWW did, made the majority of money, abd she spent it all. We were in debt, had debt collectors calling, and I didn't have two pennies to rub together. Now, I am debt free (save my house), I'm sitting on thousands of dollars in savings, and when I want something, I get it. I'm going to be set for life.

 

Feel free to mock me for "clutching my money". I'm perfectly okay with that. Because of my financial security, I can provide an amazing quality of life, not just for me, but for my daughter. And she will always be my number one priority.

[Shining One]

I've seen a lot of friends and coworkers get divorced over the years. Almost all of the ones who made more than their spouses ended up screwed financially. Yes, it was mostly men, but there were two women as well. Most of my male friends who have been through divorce do not intend to get married again. Both women have remarried, but this time to men who make considerably more than them, so there is no risk.

 

While we may choose to marry Mr./Ms. Perfect now, there is no way to know what that person will be like in the future. It is completely understandable to be wary of a bad divorce, especially if you've already been burned. This is not a male/female issue, but an issue of marriage/divorce.

It offers him just as much as it offers me.

While the relationship offers much to both of you, what happens if it ends? Do you both walk away with what you walked in with?

But I know that I am a massive asset to marriage and if my husband divorced me I'd have plenty to offer another man.

If your husband divorced you tomorrow, would you part amicably or would you do your best to squeeze as much out of him as you could?

 

Would you go into a marriage earning significantly more and having more assets than your husband, knowing that he could walk away with a significant portion?

 

 

While I'm not opposed to marriage, I would only consider it with a woman who made around the same as me. I have no problem sharing in the relationship. My girlfriend says I'm the most generous boyfriend she's ever had, and that includes her ex husband. I do have a problem sharing after the relationship, especially things I did not want to share.

[Brigit]

I purposefully chose that name knowing people would call me a tool. I get a kick out of it.

 

I personally think you would be much happier divorcing your husband. While I think you made a bad choice having an affair, I also think he is not compatible with you and that your instincts are correct. You'll both be happier divorcing and moving on.

 

When I was married, I worked far more than my xWW did, made the majority of money, abd she spent it all. We were in debt, had debt collectors calling, and I didn't have two pennies to rub together. Now, I am debt free (save my house), I'm sitting on thousands of dollars in savings, and when I want something, I get it. I'm going to be set for life.

 

Feel free to mock me for "clutching my money". I'm perfectly okay with that. Because of my financial security, I can provide an amazing quality of life, not just for me, but for my daughter. And she will always be my number one priority.

 

I think it's a riot you like people calling you a tool.

 

Look, if you made money and your wife spent it recklessly then I get why you're angry but in my marriage I am the financially savvy one and have got us out of debt.

 

This thread isn't about me and my marriage so I'm not going to respond to the other part of your comment.

[watsonyards]

I think it's a riot you like people calling you a tool.

 

Look, if you made money and your wife spent it recklessly then I get why you're angry but in my marriage I am the financially savvy one and have got us out of debt.

 

This thread isn't about me and my marriage so I'm not going to respond to the other part of your comment.

 

You're the one that brought it up.

 

Don't you think that you just proved his point? Sure, you did all of those good things, but then you cheated. So that negates everything.

[Brigit]

You're the one that brought it up.

 

Don't you think that you just proved his point? Sure, you did all of those good things, but then you cheated. So that negates everything.

 

I see you just joined today and already you know me so well that you're able to qualify that my cheating negates everything?

 

(Yeah..OK)

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

I need men especially one in particular but I like men and would hate the world without men and guess what I am even a feminist!! Did you know that adults who can take care of themselves can still need each other and it can even be healthy? It's true!! that is A-OK by me, but I have a man in my life who does feel responsibility for my well being! It's reciprocal. I guess you haven't experienced anything like this so far in your life and it sounds like it's not likely to happen but JSYK your experience is not exactly universal!!

 

so basically women are allowed or supposed, meant to need men but not the other way around.

[watsonyards]

I see you just joined today and already you know me so well that you're able to qualify that my cheating negates everything?

 

(Yeah..OK)

 

I did just join today. And I don't know anything about you. I'm simply responding to what you have written on this thread.

 

And, yes, in my opinion, cheating is one of the worst things a person can do. It's cowardly (regardless of the background) and it does absolutely negate everything else.

[Rejected Rosebud]

so basically women are allowed or supposed, meant to need men but not the other way around.

Do you even read stuff or just make up what you want to read so you can hold onto your beliefs? This was in my post you quoted:

 

Did you know that adults who can take care of themselves can still need each other and it can even be healthy? It's true!! that is A-OK by me, but I have a man in my life who does feel responsibility for my well being! It's reciproca

Just to make sure you're clear I said ADULTS and did not mention gender and then I said IT'S RECIPROCAL. Not to mention I was responding to a post bemoaning that "women don't need men." Sheesh you guys, I hope you are really young guys and will grow out of this one day or else I worry that you will have pretty sad lifes!

[autumnnight]

I think men and women are in charge of different portions and stages of dating. But even that can vary from couple to couple. However, yes, I still think the "standard startup" is a man approaching and a woman deciding how to respond. I am NOT saying it has to be that way, just that it tends to be the most often way.

[Camaro Guy]

A lot of guys also have to understand that when a woman says "no", it doesn't mean "no". It just means "not right now". She may be in a relationship, not interested at that moment, or not feeling the vibe then but all of those are transitory states. A "no" can mean a "yes" several months down the line.

[Brigit]

I did just join today. And I don't know anything about you. I'm simply responding to what you have written on this thread.

 

And, yes, in my opinion, cheating is one of the worst things a person can do. It's cowardly (regardless of the background) and it does absolutely negate everything else.

 

You're entitled to your opinion even if it is wrong.

 

 

[toolforgrowth]

Do you even read stuff or just make up what you want to read so you can hold onto your beliefs? This was in my post you quoted:

 

Just to make sure you're clear I said ADULTS and did not mention gender and then I said IT'S RECIPROCAL. Not to mention I was responding to a post bemoaning that "women don't need men." Sheesh you guys, I hope you are really young guys and will grow out of this one day or else I worry that you will have pretty sad lifes!

 

I wasn't bemoaning that women don't need men. I was stating a fact. Women do not need men for anything. And I think it's FANTASTIC. That means I am off the hook completely. You're a single mom and can't figure out a way to pay for your kids? Your problem. You're afraid to walk to your car at night? Your problem. You cheated and you're in an unhappy marriage? Your problem.

 

These are female problems. They are therefore yours to deal with. I don't have to give a damn. All I have to assume responsibility for is my daughter and myself. In this modern day and age, I can completely reject all traditional male gender roles. I'm nobody's breadwinner except my own. I hold people accountable for their actions. And I reject the notion that anybody is owed anything simply because of their sex organs.

 

For the record, I am 35. I was a blue pill swallowing White Knight in my 20's and I was completely miserable. Today, my life has improved in every single measurable way.

 

Men don't grow out of MGTOW. They grow INTO MGTOW as a result of their life experiences.

[toolforgrowth]

I think it's a riot you like people calling you a tool.

 

It's much easier to find levity when one doesn't care about how they are perceived by others.

[Rejected Rosebud]

A lot of guys also have to understand that when a woman says "no", it doesn't mean "no". It just means "not right now". She may be in a relationship, not interested at that moment, or not feeling the vibe then but all of those are transitory states. A "no" can mean a "yes" several months down the line.

I think it would be a very very very bad idea in todays world for a guy to believe that when a woman says no it doesn't mean no.

[Rejected Rosebud]

I wasn't bemoaning that women don't need men. I was stating a fact. Women do not need men for anything. And I think it's FANTASTIC. That means I am off the hook completely. You're a single mom and can't figure out a way to pay for your kids? Your problem. You're afraid to walk to your car at night? Your problem. You cheated and you're in an unhappy marriage? Your problem.

but ... but ... but I wrote that I DO need my fiance and I need men in general, in the world and in my own life!!! But I have to say that you sound like an awful boyfriend and I am really worried about how your daughter is internalized all your hatred and prejudice against women I hope she has some positive male figures in her life that love and like women!!!

 

 

Men don't grow out of MGTOW. They grow INTO MGTOW as a result of their life experiences.

I have never heard of MOTGW except on the Internet. Irl guys or girls who want to be single just are without a big axe to grind against the other gender. I mean I know a single straight guy who has no interest in having a girlfriend. He would still walk me to my car at night or buy me a bottle of water if I forgot my purse without any rancor thank goodness!!! And no he takes no pill or is no knight (more Internet hooey!!). He is just a good person. He's coming over to roast hot dogs with us in a few minutes in fact!