he said he's not sure if he ever wants to remarry (after 5 months)

[candie13]

katie, as I've said, your points were valid. And I do think you were onto something as to how strongly my fresh ex reacted.

 

I think it's not because he had realized I'm not the one for him. I think it's because he thought I was inlove and he had the upper hand. He was extrasure of himself, had had a huge ego blow recently and actually showed his hands. Vanity, my favorite sin, hahaha!

 

I also know that one catches more flies with honey and with vinegar and in both cases - the ex of 7 years and the fresh ex - I have acted impulsively and angrily. When exposed - and indeed, talking about fears related to marriage does expose one's most intimate fears - people react differently. Some people run away and hide - that was my ex of 7 years. Others go towards it - that is my fresh ex, who approached it rationally and said "maybe yes, maybe no, but def no on the short term". The way I react is against it. I cut both guys off from my life, because irrelevant of why and how, I felt rejected and unloved. I think I should have had the courage to talk about it. Understand. Explore. See if there is a middle ground. Maybe even persuade and negotiate. What I did: used my sword. Cut the evil from the root, rather than understanding its causes and trying to save the plant.

 

Rejection and abandonment fear are profound fears. So is feeling I'm not good enough.

 

I realize that, as a person, I am demanding. I give a lot. I also expect a lot.

 

With my fresh ex, considering his reaction to our breakup, I conclude I never knew him. I was just... a mere entertainment. Not even. Bed warmer. I would have cried more if my cat left the apartment.

 

But I believe that is him and his own issues. When his ex of a year and a half decided to go on a world trip (the girl before me), he didn't even shade a tear - and they were living together. He was not upset, he even encouraged her to follow her dreams. I mean... that's cool and stuff, but very unhealthy. I'd be pissed. I would feel left behind, because I expect to want to be included in one's life.

 

So this makes me believe that while it is an unnatural reaction - to me personally - to not fight back and try to at least talk about things - it does make sense, if we look at the big picture. He got abandoned when he was young by his parents and had to take care of his sisters. He married a woman who initially lied to him about her phobias (didn't say a word)... and when he told his wife that he did not want to have a child with her, because he thought she could not take care of him, she left him, immediately found another guy and made a baby with him. Imagine that...

 

I cannot fix these things. I cannot help him. And him, by letting me know, out of the blue and on his high horses that he does not consider marriage as a priority in the short term - or as a certain probability in the long term (not with me, but generally speaking)... yeah, he pushed the wrong button. Other men messed with that button before him. And chances are, most women in their 30's have had men abuse that button...

 

so I know that I also f*cked it up, by going into attack mode. Totally. A smart woman would have slept on it. Played it differently. I'm not that cold, rational woman.

 

Trust me, I am highly aware of my faults. And of theirs too. I also believe that if I deeply believed that any of these 2 men were worth it, I wouldn't have let them go. I would have fought for them. I would have reacted differently. I pushed them away because they are not at my level. And if they want me, they will have to fight - and know how to fight - to get to me. Funnily enough, my ex of 7 years knew me less well that the fresh ex. The fresh one is brainy, he figured me out. Great mind. Too bad he's lacking at the heart level.

[katiegrl]

katie, as I've said, your points were valid. And I do think you were onto something as to how strongly my fresh ex reacted.

 

I think it's not because he had realized I'm not the one for him. I think it's because he thought I was inlove and he had the upper hand. He was extrasure of himself, had had a huge ego blow recently and actually showed his hands. Vanity, my favorite sin, hahaha!

 

I also know that one catches more flies with honey and with vinegar and in both cases - the ex of 7 years and the fresh ex - I have acted impulsively and angrily. When exposed - and indeed, talking about fears related to marriage does expose one's most intimate fears - people react differently. Some people run away and hide - that was my ex of 7 years. Others go towards it - that is my fresh ex, who approached it rationally and said "maybe yes, maybe no, but def no on the short term". The way I react is against it. I cut both guys off from my life, because irrelevant of why and how, I felt rejected and unloved. I think I should have had the courage to talk about it. Understand. Explore. See if there is a middle ground. Maybe even persuade and negotiate. What I did: used my sword. Cut the evil from the root, rather than understanding its causes and trying to save the plant.

 

Rejection and abandonment fear are profound fears. So is feeling I'm not good enough.

 

I realize that, as a person, I am demanding. I give a lot. I also expect a lot.

 

With my fresh ex, considering his reaction to our breakup, I conclude I never knew him. I was just... a mere entertainment. Not even. Bed warmer. I would have cried more if my cat left the apartment.

 

But I believe that is him and his own issues. When his ex of a year and a half decided to go on a world trip (the girl before me), he didn't even shade a tear - and they were living together. He was not upset, he even encouraged her to follow her dreams. I mean... that's cool and stuff, but very unhealthy. I'd be pissed. I would feel left behind, because I expect to want to be included in one's life.

 

So this makes me believe that while it is an unnatural reaction - to me personally - to not fight back and try to at least talk about things - it does make sense, if we look at the big picture. He got abandoned when he was young by his parents and had to take care of his sisters. He married a woman who initially lied to him about her phobias (didn't say a word)... and when he told his wife that he did not want to have a child with her, because he thought she could not take care of him, she left him, immediately found another guy and made a baby with him. Imagine that...

 

I cannot fix these things. I cannot help him. And him, by letting me know, out of the blue and on his high horses that he does not consider marriage as a priority in the short term - or as a certain probability in the long term (not with me, but generally speaking)... yeah, he pushed the wrong button. Other men messed with that button before him. And chances are, most women in their 30's have had men abuse that button...

 

so I know that I also f*cked it up, by going into attack mode. Totally. A smart woman would have slept on it. Played it differently. I'm not that cold, rational woman.

 

Trust me, I am highly aware of my faults. And of theirs too. I also believe that if I deeply believed that any of these 2 men were worth it, I wouldn't have let them go. I would have fought for them. I would have reacted differently. I pushed them away because they are not at my level. And if they want me, they will have to fight - and know how to fight - to get to me. Funnily enough, my ex of 7 years knew me less well that the fresh ex. The fresh one is brainy, he figured me out. Great mind. Too bad he's lacking at the heart level.

 

Okay now I'm sufficiently impressed!

 

Sounds like you have discovered and learned quite a bit about yourself and your own reactions through this whole ordeal... which is a good thing, a POSITIVE thing.

 

In the long run, he wasn't the right man for YOU, you were not right for each other!

 

You are a smart cookie, and actually quite the *catch* ....I mean compare your posts from earlier in this thread to the one above ....and wow!!!

 

No doubt you have learned and grown from this and will continue to learn and grow....it's ALL positive and good.

 

I have no doubt you will make some lucky man a beautiful and intelligent wife. A little emotional...lol ...so am I believe it or not.

 

But when channeled in a healthy way, being emotional (and sensitive) are great assets!!!!

 

Again, good luck going forward!

(((hugs)))

Edited May 14, 2015 by katiegrl

[candie13]

Okay now I'm sufficiently impressed!

 

Sounds like you have discovered and learned quite a bit about yourself and your own reactions through this whole ordeal... which is a good thing, a POSITIVE thing.

 

In the long run, he wasn't the right man for YOU, you were not right for each other!

 

You are a smart cookie, and actually quite the *catch* ....I mean compare your posts from earlier in this thread to the one above ....and wow!!!

 

No doubt you have learned and grown from this and will continue to learn and grow....it's ALL positive and good.

 

I have no doubt you will make some lucky man a beautiful and intelligent wife. A little emotional...lol ...so am I believe it or not.

 

But when channeled in a healthy way, being emotional (and sensitive) are great assets!!!!

 

Again, good luck going forward!

(((hugs)))

 

thank you for your words of encouragement, kate. I very much treasure different opinions from mine and also things from different perspective, so if you catch something else, so flag it out, it can only help!

 

As I've mentioned before, I'm a bit sensitive still, so if you could take that a little bit into consideration in your posts, that would be great . Thank you. I personally treasure an objective pov, especially if I don't necessarily like it. We all have our blind spots, hopefully places like these make us become more aware of them.

 

And I'm ok with the self confidence, so thanks. I believe most women are good catches, if they are convinced about it.

[katiegrl]

thank you for your words of encouragement, kate. I very much treasure different opinions from mine and also things from different perspective, so if you catch something else, so flag it out, it can only help!

 

As I've mentioned before, I'm a bit sensitive still, so if you could take that a little bit into consideration in your posts, that would be great . Thank you. I personally treasure an objective pov, especially if I don't necessarily like it. We all have our blind spots, hopefully places like these make us become more aware of them.

 

***And I'm ok with the self confidence, so thanks. I believe most women are good catches, if they are convinced about it.***

 

Quote in Asterisk -- So so true! And I did not mean to imply otherwise.

 

I realize I sound harsh sometimes, and for that I apologize. My mom was VERY harsh with me and that's how I learned. So I am a product of my environment I guess...ugh.

 

But I'm working on trying to be more sensitive in the way I post...appreciate your bringing that to my attention. I mean well and my goal really is to help... :)

[candie13]

Quote in Asterisk -- So so true! And I did not mean to imply otherwise.

 

I realize I sound harsh sometimes, and for that I apologize. My mom was VERY harsh with me and that's how I learned. So I am a product of my environment I guess...ugh.

 

But I'm working on trying to be more sensitive in the way I post...appreciate your bringing that to my attention. I mean well and my goal really is to help... :)

 

haha, no worries, mine was really tough on me as well, I know how it feels like, as I know that sometimes I am exactly the same !

 

cheers

[candie13]

hey, guys, day 5 of NC with him, but actually, it's only now that I feel it's over over. I've texted his friend that I won't be seeing her after all, gave her my bank details for the flight tickets reimbursement. I've posted his stuff this morning via the post and had my apartment scrubbed clean. I'm so glad I made it safely through the weekend, it was a long one and I had not much planned. Tomorrow morning I'm flying out to meet my family.

 

I'm a lot more in peace and the only thing I feel towards him is compassion. I realize he served me a lot of bs and that I may be one of the only women who saw through the haze this early - since his last few RS lasted between 1,5 years to 3. At least, our relationship was good solid one, no mind f*cking and I am going out of it in much better shape compared to how I was when I got in. I'm positive for the future and I am willing to internalize what happened and learn the right lessons.

 

I think something happened today that made me accept the situation and feel more in peace. It's not meant to be. There is no love, no feelings, just a union of the minds. And despite the fact that my ex and I wanted (almost) the same things, on my list, number one, large and in bolded letter, is LOVE.

 

Thank you all very much for the help you have provided, time and patience !

 

Big hug, have a great week ahead!

[writergal]

I'm happy for you Candie. You sound very grounded. Have a nice visit with your family.

[SmartDude]

Well OP, I am probablly a lot like your now ex boyfriend.

 

If I truly loved a women and wanted to live a life with her, that should be enough.

Living together would come first before any children, to make sure we are compatible.

 

Marriage in a post-feminist society is a definite no no for the modern man.

It is somewhat like blackmail.

It is saying:"if our relationship does not work I will invoke the power of the state against you."-This is not true love. This is cultural bonding for the purpose of having children.

 

So if I encountered a women who I truly felt a connection with, and she decided to end the relationship because there would be no legal contract....I would also be cold and surgical and all you would get is a "thanks, nice to have known you."

 

I veiw such women as cultural psycopaths, and avoid them like the plauge. But everyone is different so don't think im calling you a psycopath.

 

You should perhaps be looking for someone who is very "traditional". Problem is that most of these types of men have the emotional intelligence of a rock. But if marriage is more important than love to you, this is the path you may end up on.

[candie13]

See, SmartDude, I was the first one surprised by my reaction. I had always assumed I would get married eventually, didn't quite realize that it was that big on my list.

 

More than the incompatibility of our views on marriage was the RS in itself. When we were talking, he was the one with the very strong pov - no, I do not want to get married in the short term, but I want kids. Which is fair enough. But he never said the magic words: "I love you". "I see myself getting old by your side". "I would see you bare my children". "You make me so incredibly happy". "I feel so lucky to have you in my life".

 

What I seek, as a woman, is a reassurance that I mean something to the guy. That our relationship is special. That I am special. A man can have 100 gf, but he only marries once (ideally, hahaha). Don't get me wrong, I am not made of steel.

 

I just want to be loved. When we were talking, the words he was using were "I really like you" and "I'm in peace by your side" "I'm well with you", which is all great, but hardly enough. I've already told him the ILY phrase and he never responded... like... I dunno, how can you tell a woman that you see yourself having her children (potentially) yet never use the L word....

 

and of course you are right. Everything is against me, here. Of course any man scared of commitment and of marriage would see my situation as emotional blackmail. I am aware of it. I already know I've lost it all, because it became a battle of the egos. Not a situation where we both try to make the other one happy and content.

 

He was categorical about not wanting to get married. I believe a position this firm has to be communicated very soon into the RS, because I have talked to him about this. I have talked about how I wanted to get married in an Orthodox church etc. He didn't tell me - at the time (one month and a half ago) - that he doesn't see himself getting married - ever or in the near future.

 

See... the way I see it, if there's a will, there's a way. I find it disrespectful, from him, to present me the reality, the way he sees it, and then expect me to just shut up and accept it. Negotiate, talk to me, talk me into it. He was the one asking me what do I want: do I want marriage or do I want children ? Who's blackmailing whom, SD?

 

I have an education, I have a good job, I have a personality, a strong character and good functioning brain. Talk to me about it. Let's discuss. Show me you care about me. He does not - and should not - dictate how things get done, in a relationship involving me.

 

We earn the same amount of $$$ (yet I am 4 years younger). I am European, he is Asian. In Europe. He is providing for his parents, I'm not. He has no savings, I do. I am sorry to be this down to Earth, but between the 2 of us, I am the catch, not him. I am already compromising by going out with him. Let's assume we have children. What do I know about raising Asian children? What can I teach them about discrimination today, in Europe? I have no idea...

 

I think there are a few things wrong in this picture. No love, no emotion, only mental calculation... sorry, I simply fail to see why I would stick around, there is no incentive for me.

 

So I respect the modern day man and mentality and wish both of them bon voyage !

Edited May 18, 2015 by candie13

[SmartDude]

He never said I love you and looked deep into your eyes?

But he wanted children?

 

Sounds like mr. Wrong.

You made a good choice in ending this.

[candie13]

If I truly loved a women and wanted to live a life with her, that should be enough.

Living together would come first before any children, to make sure we are compatible.

 

love is a must. I agree 200%. However, as a single woman, why on earth would I move in with a man if he had no serious intentions with me? If he says he sees me on long term in his life, ok, I might consider it. I prefer to consider moving in after he hinted at marriage, actually.

 

Marriage in a post-feminist society is a definite no no for the modern man.

It is somewhat like blackmail.

It is saying:"if our relationship does not work I will invoke the power of the state against you."-This is not true love. This is cultural bonding for the purpose of having children.

I have actually suggested prenupt and all that, because I'm not after anyone's money. But I agree, I believe society does protect marriage more than a simple union. I would like for my children to be born inside a marriage, just like me, my sister, just like him. Why would I give my children less than what I've received from my parents?

 

So if I encountered a women who I truly felt a connection with, and she decided to end the relationship because there would be no legal contract....I would also be cold and surgical and all you would get is a "thanks, nice to have known you."

 

See, we'll never know the answer to this riddle because he never made me feel as if we had a truly special connection or told me so.

 

I veiw such women as cultural psycopaths, and avoid them like the plauge. But everyone is different so don't think im calling you a psycopath.

it's ok, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

 

You should perhaps be looking for someone who is very "traditional".

I prefer "inlove" and "willing to negotiate" and of course "willing to fight for a woman he'd like to have children with".

 

Problem is that most of these types of men have the emotional intelligence of a rock.

yeah well, don't generalize. the rest of menhood aren't exactly emotionally intelligent either.

 

But if marriage is more important than love to you, this is the path you may end up on.

marriage will never be more important than love to me. I want to feel, really feel that my partner loves me. I want to feel he believes in me and in this relationship. If my partner believes we're gonna get separated / divorced, then why get married to begin with? And why have children? I want to have children with a man who wants to stay by my side, I don't want to be a single mom.

 

See, I don't see marriage as guarantee, I see marriage as a vote of confidence. I know the stats, I know about divorce rate and all that.

 

I don't even think it's about marriage. It's about opening yourself to love and believing that a relationship will work. Giving it all your heart and your efforts.

 

Anything less than that is settling, to me...

 

but thank you for your post, I appreciate your pov, it's our differences that enrich us, I believe.

[candie13]

He never said I love you and looked deep into your eyes?

But he wanted children?

 

Sounds like mr. Wrong.

You made a good choice in ending this.

 

thank you, SD. I believe I did, as well .

[candie13]

Hey, guys

 

Just a short update: no news from him. Yesterday was my birthday, so I guess that would have been the last chance, one month later. Actually, he did offer me a birthday present: one of my gfs told me she saw him on Tinder

 

I guess he really didn't care, so all things considered, I've dodged a bullet.

 

It's a pity to have ended the RS after 4-5 months like this, and that we're not even on speaking terms, but getting "thank you for all you've done for us" when I told him I'm breaking up showed the true measure of our emotional connection. silence speaks 1,000 words.

 

Key learning: ask EVERTHING you want to know. Have big talks to get to know the other person. Test the other person. Put healthy barriers around you. Protect yourself. Open BIG your eyes. And always ALWAYS listen to your intuition.

Edited June 11, 2015 by candie13

[Arieswoman]

Candie13,

You are smart to put an end to this, as you weren't both on the same page.

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting marriage. It isn't "square", "unliberated" "old-fashioned" etc.

 

You just need to be careful to choose a guy who wants the same as you do.

 

I believe that most guys who say that they don't want to get married (again) will do just that one day. It just won't be with us !

 

Ok, so this time you misread the signals/didn't listen to what he was saying/didn't ask the right questions soon enough. Next time you'll do better won't you?

 

So now you need to take time out and heal (no rush) and next time you'll be armed with the experience to handle things differently.

 

Good luck. x

[Eternal Sunshine]

That's why I think that a lot of women in general waste so much time, so many months and years giving things a chance, seeing if he changes his mind, being afraid to ask big questions.

 

IMO, it should take 2 months tops to evaluate level of connection, his investment and future potential.

[candie13]

hehe, girls, I'm 35, not 12. He did all the right things. By the book. Given me the keys to his appartment by the second month. Introduced me to his dad and step brothers by month 3 - and a long weekend in Paris. We had come back from Paris and he didn't even have my wifi code, so yeah, I was careful.

 

Firm plans

We had short term plans together - visit my folks in Eastern Europe, the next week (had tickets bought). Mid term plan: to go on holidays together, to South of France (had tickets bought). Long term plans: to meet the rest of his family in November and attend a bit wedding with him and go to Thailand together in December.

The grey zone

He made sure to do all the right things and put all my fears at ease. He simply didn't want to get married. I am sure 100% we have talked about kids and marriage the second or third date. He may have said yes to commitment and kids and no comment about marriage - something that I did not realize at the moment. I had talked about my sister getting married and about my wanting to get married - month 2 or 3. He never said - wait, wait, no, marriage is not in the books for me.

 

The deception

he did act like a SOB , as made sure I was emotionally involved before pulling this stunt. And because he knew what was coming, he made sure to not invest emotionally.

 

I honestly thought marriage was not an issue, otherwise I would have asked - and left much earlier. A LOT earlier. I'm not stupid to waste my time and invest emotionally in a dead end RS.

 

Thinking back

I did realize he was scarred from his divorce. I did feel he was not warm to the idea and it was not nothing he would actively initiate, but our discussions made me think it would be something he would be willing to do, if very important for his partner. Well... it is very important to me. I reacted really poorly and abruptly because I felt I was played. And he knows he did do this, this is why he is not coming back.

 

however...

the only good thing is... I swear I only had to benefit from this RS, this is why I can't hold the grudge. He was my emotional buffer and this RS came in a moment where I really needed stability and acceptance and peace. And he gave me all that. It ended exactly when it needed to end. And I am grateful that he did tell me the truth and I did not have to find out, through his actions, one year later - like my commitment phobic ex did. Don't I wish he had manned up earlier? for sure. Don't I wish he had played fair play? Of course. We just don't get all we want all the time.

 

And he is pretty fly, just not fly enough for me to compromise on my own dreams and aspirations. I understand he goes for a calm, less emotionally deep, but stable and committed RS. It's just that... everyone wants to love. And sooner or later, he'll want it too. I'd much rather not have a kid with him, by the time he realizes it .

[candie13]

Candie13,

You are smart to put an end to this, as you weren't both on the same page. There is nothing wrong with wanting marriage. It isn't "square", "unliberated" "old-fashioned" etc.

 

You just need to be careful to choose a guy who wants the same as you do.

 

I am not ashamed of my dreams and aspirations for my life. I accept them, I am proud of them as they reflect my values and the lifestyle I want to lead. I think the big question is the bolded part. How to tell if he wants to get married - not with me, but generally. Because I can tell you, asking the question upfront is not the way - for me or for him. Why should I ask it? Why not him? Nope, not comfortable that way.

 

I believe that most guys who say that they don't want to get married (again) will do just that one day. It just won't be with us !

 

Amen. I am absolutely convinced about this. I've actually told it to him, when we were having our fight over text - "a couple of years down the road, both of us will be married. The question is: to eachother or not" ! At the time, I had not understood that the guy had invested the minimum, emotionally, I actually thought we had something nice going . aaaarrggghhhhh! maybe that's why he did not say the ILY before having this conversation. Because my position on marriage was transparent since the very beginning. And he did not want to commit to anything, before. Smart move. Predictable, but smart.

 

Ok, so this time you misread the signals/didn't listen to what he was saying/didn't ask the right questions soon enough. Next time you'll do better won't you?

 

I have no idea. I thought I had. I really did. Turns out I have actually asked the wrong questions.

 

So now you need to take time out and heal (no rush) and next time you'll be armed with the experience to handle things differently.

 

I agree. Time heals everything. I am glad I did not rush into dating anyone until this situation cleared out. I am fine, I understand what happened, I don't need closure... I think I'm fine. As for "doing things differently", I think it's a matter of asking exactly what I want and having the courage to confront those things that I am very vulnerable to, such as being loved, testing the level of commitment by watching the facts and authenticity of emotional involvement and not running away when things don't go exactly as expected.

 

I have no idea what exactly i've learnt from this experience, but at least, it's been a good one. As far as it can be, considering we did not end up together, haha

 

Good luck. x

Thank you. Better luck next time.

[Trishern]

He wasn't Mr. Right.

 

 

Good job you didn't spend more than the 5 months on him.

 

 

You'll be just fine.

[candie13]

I decided to visit my friend in Italy and we ended up talking about this episode. We didn't sleep all that much, I've had a bit of alcohol and in the morning I had a real coffee - I usually only have decaf. I was so mad. I got soooo mad. The guy knew exactly how things were and let me buy the ticket to go to my country with him. He let me buy the tickets to South of France. He let me fall for him. I was this close to firing him an email, telling him that I've see through his lies and asking him for my money back. That he should pay me, because what he did was wrong. He had privileged information that I had no access to before. And as he is cheap and extra proud, I really felt like confronting him, to make him see that I know, to bother him and to get his bloody money. Not because I am missing any, but for him to feel that if you play, you gotta pay. Sooner or later, you have to pay.

 

I've had the instinct to talk to my best friend before pressing the sent button. She told me it's useless. Not because of the money. Because he is unable to understand. The message was already sent. By cutting him off, I've already sent him all the message he needs to know. And that by keeping NC, I am maintaining my dignity intact. Not that it's worth much. Exactly day 30 of NC. I have never had such an urge of anger coming up inside of me. I was seeing red in front my eyes. I was running (went for a jog), sweating and felt tears of anger going down my cheeks. Maybe it was a caffeine-related secondary effect. I'm really glad I didn't give in. Thanks Lord for my best friend.

 

In 30 more days, I'll be much better. Quite a few guys got word I'm single and start ringing me up, looks like I'll be busy, going back home . Peace of mind and fresh start. It really doesn't matter who left whom, who lied to whom. As Trishern put it so plainly, just the wrong guy, irrelevant of how sane the RS was. Funny how a RS looks healthy, but then when you get to do the more thorough check, you realize it's rotten to the bone. Dust. I don't even understand what was keeping it together.