The spouse

[cocorico]

Most people would agree that the longer a marriage goes on, the more responsibilities (children, mortgage, etc) and therefore, the less gazing in your eyes time and kitchen table sex time. Just a matter of math.

 

You're wrong. That may be true in the short term, but changes the linger a M goes on. Children leave, mortgages get paid off, people retire from jobs. My H and I are both "empty nesters", home is long paid off, and our work situations both allow us the flexibility to work when it suits us. A couple of years ago, this was less true. In a few more years it will be even truer, if we choose to retire. We have plenty of time for whatever we want to do - and being with each other in passionate and intimate ways is a priority.

 

However, that has NOTHING to do with spousal love or connection. In fact, those things can and do strengthen spousal love, without the need for illicit sex in the bathroom at the movie theater. Which is the part of your post that I had a real problem with.

 

Stats don't bear out your claim. Financial obligations (mortgages, etc) and kids are cited as among the factors that cause the most stress in marriages, undermining "spousal love and connection". Read these forums a bit more, and you'll find many posts of spouses feeling locked out because their partner expends all their energy on the kids, or the house, or the bills, leaving little time, energy or emotional investment for the relationship. There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of threads supporting this. I don't see many stating, "wow! Had to take a second mortgage today some could afford Trinity's violin lessons. I feel so bonded to my SO, and so loved up - it's way better than any orgasm!"

 

 

I don't see why your transitioning a affair to a marriage is any less relevant than those of us who were in multi-year affairs and multi-year marriages with two different people. The math is still the same. And anyway, your affair was relatively short and it was meant from the beginning to end in a marriage. In that way it's really no different than the courtship that precedes a marriage (except for the cheating part, of course).

 

 

(I've redacted the childish sniping, and won't engage with that.)

 

Again, you're wrong. I was in a "multi-year" affair, which was not intended from the beginning to end in marriage. So nice try, but completely off-base.

 

And it's not a simple question of maths. If your argument is that affairs and marriages are very different kinds of relationships, and you then compare a toxic A with a toxic MM, with a standard M with a standard H, of course you are comparing cabbages and apples. The nature of that is different because the nature of at least one of the participants was very different. A fair comparison would involve the same players - for consistency and comparability- in the two different relationship forms. Anyone with any kind of basic research training knows that, to ensure that your findings are most accurately ascribed to the variables under study, you need to control for confounding variables. That's first year social science.

 

But I guess if you reduce relationships to maths, nuances of human behaviour can't really matter that much to you, because ultimately 1 + 1 has to = 2...?

[Ifalltopieces]

So Explain this:

 

A MM is deeply and fully involved in an affair. He Doesn't show ANY signs of guilt, remorse or feeling bad about the affair. Then, his spouse calls him out. Tells him they know there is someone else and professes their undying love for him. Telling him he could do anything to her and she wouldn't ever walk. After this exchange, the AP admits to feelling guilty. BUT not guilty enough to stop the affair. In fact, they share it with you and carry on like nothing happened. Nothing changes; they don't pull away, alter contact...nothing. Meanwhile, your in a whirlwind. WTF is that?

 

Can guilt cause someone to stay in an unhappy situation? Or is it a skewed kind of love?

 

Thoughts? Experience?

[cocorico]

So Explain this:

 

A MM is deeply and fully involved in an affair. He Doesn't show ANY signs of guilt, remorse or feeling bad about the affair. Then, his spouse calls him out. Tells him they know there is someone else and professes their undying love for him. Telling him he could do anything to her and she wouldn't ever walk. After this exchange, the AP admits to feelling guilty. BUT not guilty enough to stop the affair. In fact, they share it with you and carry on like nothing happened. Nothing changes; they don't pull away, alter contact...nothing. Meanwhile, your in a whirlwind. WTF is that?

 

Can guilt cause someone to stay in an unhappy situation? Or is it a skewed kind of love?

 

Thoughts? Experience?

 

If the Baw tells him she will stay regardless, and that she knows, the WS may feel that he's been given (reluctant) permission. He may feel bad, if the BW expressed hurt along with the undying love, at the pain he's caused her, but ultimately she's saying he's free to do what he wants and she'll still be here for him. So, from his POV, why should he change anything?

[minimariah]

in fact... i find many of these examples of intimacy & passion -- ridiculous.

 

shagging on a kitchen table & in the movies = your sex can be passionate and hot in ONLY bed, too -- for example, introduce some elements of BDSM into it... or maybe invite a 3rd person, use toys. having sex in "unexpected" places is so typically vanilla definition of "exciting & kinky" -- to me personally, it's boring and predictable.

 

staring into each other's eyes & listing what you like about each other -- i'd probably start laughing because i hate romance, LOL. do me rough & nasty, what kind of "gazing & looking at the stars" bullsh*t...? we don't have to stare at each other forever for me to let you know how much you're appreciated.

 

i mean... i'm just trying to say that your definitions of intimacy and passion are different from someone else's, that's all.

 

ALSO -- when a BS is blindsided it means that their WS never voiced any concerns. so if there was no shagging on the kitchen table & gazing into each other's eyes and the BS thought that was totally fine -- it's because the WS left them with that impression.

 

it's actually annoying how quick people are to assume that someone cheated because a BS did something wrong - only folks terrified of the same thing happening to them assume that.

[minimariah]

WTF is that?

 

denial.

 

Can guilt cause someone to stay in an unhappy situation? Or is it a skewed kind of love?

 

nope -- folks usually stay because it benefits THEM. even when they stay for the children, they stay for themselves. so no, no one is staying in an unhappy situation out of guilt and when they do -- you're dealing with an emotionally screwed up person.

[cocorico]

in fact... i find many of these examples of intimacy & passion -- ridiculous.

 

shagging on a kitchen table & in the movies = your sex can be passionate and hot in ONLY bed, too -- for example, introduce some elements of BDSM into it... or maybe invite a 3rd person, use toys. having sex in "unexpected" places is so typically vanilla definition of "exciting & kinky" -- to me personally, it's boring and predictable.

 

staring into each other's eyes & listing what you like about each other -- i'd probably start laughing because i hate romance, LOL. do me rough & nasty, what kind of "gazing & looking at the stars" bullsh*t...? we don't have to stare at each other forever for me to let you know how much you're appreciated.

 

i mean... i'm just trying to say that your definitions of intimacy and passion are different from someone else's, that's all.

 

Agree completely. They were examples, not definitive symptoms. And I chose them for being suitably vanilla, so that more people would relate to them. They weren't meant as definitions, but as some kind of index - if there is nothing intimate, nothing passionate, but only dishes and kids and bills and mortgages - then how fine is it, really? I guess my point was, the posts I've read here from "blindsided BWs" don't speak to passion or intimacy, just polite civility and boring routine. Which may be OK for some people, but are definitely not sufficient for everyone.

 

ALSO -- when a BS is blindsided it means that their WS never voiced any concerns. so if there was no shagging on the kitchen table & gazing into each other's eyes and the BS thought that was totally fine -- it's because the WS left them with that impression.

 

...or because they weren't paying attention when the WS told them it wasn't. (Or were deeply invested in not hearing.)

 

I'm not saying it's always one or always the other. But there definitely have been many posts on these forums of spouses complaining that they are deeply unhappy and their spouse is oblivious and doesn't seem to care, because s/he is perfectly happy. Not all of those spouses go on to have affairs, though many of them post at the point where they're considering it.

 

it's actually annoying how quick people are to assume that someone cheated because a BS did something wrong - only folks terrified of the same thing happening to them assume that.

 

*only* those folks? I'd be interested in the studies proving that.

 

And, aside from one person who posted on the (now locked) thread about blaming the BS whomsaidmtheyn*always* blamed the BS, I've not come across anyone who has claimed that the Bs in every situation was always to blame. Though I have come across many who claim that the BS is never to blame. Personally, I prefer to take each case on its own individual merits, and look at the facts,Mather than impose general "rules" which so often turn out to be nothing more than prejudice.

[Ifalltopieces]

denial.

 

 

 

nope -- folks usually stay because it benefits THEM. even when they stay for the children, they stay for themselves. so no, no one is staying in an unhappy situation out of guilt and when they do -- you're dealing with an emotionally screwed up person.

 

Can you elaborate more? You say denial, but denial about what?

 

And I agree, emotionally screwed up is a very polite way of saying it.

 

Do you think guilt=any kind of love?

[minimariah]

If your argument is that affairs and marriages are very different kinds of relationships, and you then compare a toxic A with a toxic MM, with a standard M with a standard H, of course you are comparing cabbages and apples.

 

A's and M's ARE very different kinds of relationships - and we're not comparing toxic & standard... we're comparing the dynamic of an A & a M.

 

Needless to say, there have been studies and studies and researches about this matter that actually explain in details how different an A & a M is & in which way (with or without the same person).

Edited May 16, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[minimariah]

You say denial, but denial about what?

 

denial about cheating. if no one knows and they aren't confronted about it -- it isn't cheating, they don't have to think about it and they don't really feel guilt. they feel guilt when "reminded" of it and confronted but when the dust settles? back to their old ways, choosing not to think about it.

 

if they thought about it - they'd be forced to make some radical decisions (break up the A or divorce) & they don't really want that.

 

usually, in my experience, when folks feel 0 guilt for cheating - there is 0 love there, not even a familial love. that's like... they literally do not give a f*ck anymore. at all. not even 0,005%. AND they're usually lacking empathy/resenting the spouse.

 

Do you think guilt=any kind of love?

 

no.

 

love means staying with someone because you WANT to, because there is no other person you'd rather be with. staying out of guilt, shame, obligation, loyalty... that's not love.

 

some will argue and say it's "familial" love but like i already said before - to me, that kind of love is irrelevant in a marriage so there is that.

 

no one wants to be loved by their spouse in a "familial" way.