The spouse

May 15, 2015

See, now I can't understand why people have to so thoroughly draw lines about what constitutes as love. I guess I would just never say that they stopped loving simply over losing the desire to be intimate with them. Or choose to do something hurtful. I don't doubt for a minute he loves us both.

Even if the romantic feelings die, the feelings of love can persist.

I guess that's why people argue about it. Because some of us would never say that the love is gone, just no longer loved the same way. They can still care, that person may still mean a lot and they don't want to hurt them, but also still want happiness themselves and it's no longer possible with the other person.

but this is the thing - you stopped loving them in a romantic way, the romantic love is gone. why is it necessary to say that you still love and care for them but just in a different way... like, that IS what "i stopped loving you" means.

OF COURSE you care for them and wish them the best, you've spent years with them and share memories... how is that "love" relevant for your romantic relationship?

"No longer love you the same way" - "love you like a friend" - "don't love you anymore".

i don't know about others, but i don't care about my partner loving me like a friend. AT ALL. you either love me like a romantic partner in a romantic way or you don't. like, what do i have from your "love" if you gonna dump me? lol

May 15, 2015

like... people dump other people when they're not in love with them anymore, lol. unless they're married -- then you have As.

Unfortunately, yes. Or they could get a D, or separate, or discuss an open M.

Romantic love. Familial love. If we're talking about justifications or reasons to have an A, does it really matter when it really comes down to it? Even if it's just familial, I would hope that you would still try to do right by a person you have any sort of love for.

May 15, 2015

I wonder how many As are accurately described thus. Most WS I know have not "gone home and acted loving(ly) toward their BW", but rather, they've acted toward them as one would toward any other human: not been mean, done their duty, treated them civilly. Much as they would treat a colleague or a cousin - polite, affable, even generous - but not intimate. But perhaps that is what BS consider "loving", and perhaps in itself that is part of the problem. The WS is seeking something more - passion and intimacy - whereas affable is all the BS wants.

i do, too - but this causes problems because most BS (at least the ones i know) want to be desired, passionately loved & viewed as romantic beings. WS doesn't give them that for this or that reason so that's why all the tension appears. WS treats the BS like a "buddy" & denies them affection and everything else you SHOULDN'T deny your spouse (this is just one of the possible scenarios). so while they might treat them with kindness, they deny them everything else -- that's how most BS "know" when they're being cheated on, you feel that change clearly.

remember, WS are the one saying "i love you" when they're not in love with their spouses anymore, not the BS -- so it would be that the WS think that kind of loving is enough in their marriage.

Not always but yes it can. I know I was definitely in love with my ex husband for many years. But I was a teenager for a lot of it and then my early 20s. Who were were then were totally different people.

indeed - a person can be right for you when you're for example 20... but then stop being right a decade later. i don't think we love the same way when we're in our early 20s and early 30s, for example. we change.

May 15, 2015

i don't know about others, but i don't care about my partner loving me like a friend. AT ALL. you either love me like a romantic partner in a romantic way or you don't. like, what do i have from your "love" if you gonna dump me? lol

Really? I feel like there are so many parts that make an R/M strong at its foundation. It can't all be romantic, IMO.

May 15, 2015

Even if it's just familial, I would hope that you would still try to do right by a person you have any sort of love for.

absolutely - wasn't trying to justify the As, i was simply saying that if many weren't married -- they would definitely dump their spouse they claim they "love" so much.

And this absolutely has a romantic component insofar as romance entails care and succour

it might have a romantic component but it's not romantic at all. i agree with you -- but the kind of love you described your MM having for the spouse, in my opinion, is highly problematic. that kind of love is viewed as pathological and it usually doesn't transform FROM romantic love because in most cases, the romantic love was never there.

it CAN transform in situations where the spouse becomes unable to "perform" in adult life, to live - illness or something else. in a healthy relationship, if romantic love stops it usually transforms into a friendly one.

May 15, 2015

Oh come on. That's just crazy talk. Head over to the plain old vanilla breakup forum and you'll see this language all the time.

I myself, without there being any cheating involved, have heard and said it as it related to my relationship. The love you have for your SO sometimes unfortunately changes from romantic ("in love") to familial. You can love your SO like your closest friend in the world and adore them and care about them but have absolutely NO romantic feelings for them anymore. This is when you hear, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you anymore."

I breezed through the first page of threads in break up section. Didn't see one person saying that....some people talking about trying to stay friends after a break up, but no one saying ILYBNILWY.

I hardly even buy that someone loves someone in a familial way when they say that. The way I love my family is by spending time with them, talking to them, celebrating special events, inviting them for dinner, going to their house for dinner, being there when they are sick, dropping everything if they have a crisis and need help, etc. etc. etc. Most people are not doing these familial things with a former romantic partner.

May 15, 2015

Really? I feel like there are so many parts that make an R/M strong at its foundation. It can't all be romantic, IMO.

absolutely but it literally doesn't exist without romance meaning that the romantic love is CRUCIAL.

how you gonna be in a romantic relationship if you view your partner as nothing more than a dear friend? when you have romantic love -- u usually have everything else, friendship and care and all of that. remove the romantic love and you'll get the same relationship you have with all your other friends.

May 15, 2015

You've never heard the phrase spoken outside the context of an affair?! What???

And no one is saying familial love is the kind that should exist in a healthy relationship. Rather, we're saying it's the kind that DOES exist when you hear a MM saying they love their wife but are not "in love" with her or seek romantic love elsewhere.

I don't agree. When I hear someone saying that, I hear someone who is confused.

Sometimes it means they don't love the spouse anymore.

Sometimes it means they know at some level they still love their spouse but they aren't in touch with the in love feelings they previously had for the spouse. How that plays out depends on the people involved.

May 15, 2015

absolutely but it literally doesn't exist without romance meaning that the romantic love is CRUCIAL.

how you gonna be in a romantic relationship if you view your partner as nothing more than a dear friend? when you have romantic love -- u usually have everything else, friendship and care and all of that. remove the romantic love and you'll get the same relationship you have with all your other friends.

I don't know about anyone else, but to me, it's not "couple love" ( is that even a term?) unless the whole package is there.

A couple can have all sorts of "friendly" love, but romantic love is important too. From my experince, it seems like when thinsg are going well, it's the romantic love that is the glue that keeps the couple together.

A couple can have all sorts of "romantic" love, but without the "friendly" love, there's often not enough to sustain the relationship when things get tough.

You need both for the relationship to thrive, and that's not easy to find.

May 15, 2015

What difference does it all make?

Romantic love, friendship love, true love, whatevah.... They stay with the BS or significant other anyway.

May 15, 2015

Really? Being cheated on doesn't mean one doesn't know what loving is.

Perhaps it's not true of all BS, but from reading what many BW on the Infidelity board describe as "loving" behaviour from their WS (in explaining why they were so "blindsided" when discovering the A) it strikes me as little different from how one would treat a colleague or cousin. Taking them to eat in a nice restaurant, getting them a tasteful card on their birthday, being pleasant over dinner, etc seem to "prove", to those BWs, that they were still very much loved and valued by their WH. No mention of being unable to keep their hands off each other. No mention of staring into each others' eyes for ages, listing what they love about each other. No mention of spontaneous steamy sex on the kitchen table. No mention of sitting under the stars discussing hopes and dreams and fears and vulnerabilities. No mention of slipping out of a movie for a quicky in the cloakrooms. No mention of lying in bed in each others' arms, talking until the wee hours of the morning. No evidence of real passion, or real intimacy. Just this benign civility.

May 15, 2015

remember, WS are the one saying "i love you" when they're not in love with their spouses anymore, not the BS -- so it would be that the WS think that kind of loving is enough in their marriage.

are they? I've not seen that IRL - unless you're referring to the autonomic "I love you too" response some couples develop out of habit,mwhich is very different to a heartfelt declaration of love.

May 15, 2015

From what I've seen, "ILYBINILWY" is typically used when someone has comparison material - a new relationship already in place (i.e., an affair).

May 15, 2015

are they? I've not seen that IRL - unless you're referring to the autonomic "I love you too" response some couples develop out of habit,mwhich is very different to a heartfelt declaration of love.

i did - after all, it happened to me personally.

i can give you my own experience as an example - my xH was the one who would always tell me how much he loved me, appreciated me... and he did love me - but as a friend. NOT as a woman and the moment those feelings shifted -- i felt it. i think everyone knows when you're not being desired or passionately loved by your partner, no matter what they say... it's in the way they look at you, touch you, kiss you... the way they can't keep their hands off of you, the way they pay attention to you and the way they want to share their intimacy with you... i think everyone knows when their SO isn't in love with them, doesn't love them in a romantic way... but many ignore it with the "it can be the same in the beginning and after many years logic" - just to be clear - he clearly didn't mean what i meant when saying "i love you" but he couldn't admit that to himself -- that's what i'm talking about. and i think the "i love you but not in love with you" is the same thing = folks refusing to admit to themselves that they actually stopped loving the person, the love that they DO feel is irrelevant to the relationship.

my xH couldn't accept the fact that he stopped loving me for a LONG time and so he thought that the "i love you but i'm not in love with you" type of relationship is actually normal after some years. he would go out of his way to convince me that he loves me when i didn't feel the love i wanted to feel.

that's what i meant -- it's often the WS who think that kind of love is normal in a romantic relationship (familial love) -- you can see on this board how defensive they get when you tell them that they DON'T love their spouse.

i remember one poster who went out of his way to say that he loves and desires his wife when it was clear as a day that he doesn't. and when confronted, he would say - well, what do you expect after so many years, it's normal that the fire and passion go out!

so i disagree that the BS is the one who think the familial love is normal (though i'm sure many do) so the WS looks elsewhere what they can't get at home. many CAN get it at home but they don't want it because it isn't coming from the right person, you know?

Edited May 15, 2015 by minimariah

May 15, 2015

Perhaps it's not true of all BS, but from reading what many BW on the Infidelity board describe as "loving" behaviour from their WS (in explaining why they were so "blindsided" when discovering the A) it strikes me as little different from how one would treat a colleague or cousin. Taking them to eat in a nice restaurant, getting them a tasteful card on their birthday, being pleasant over dinner, etc seem to "prove", to those BWs, that they were still very much loved and valued by their WH. No mention of being unable to keep their hands off each other. No mention of staring into each others' eyes for ages, listing what they love about each other. No mention of spontaneous steamy sex on the kitchen table. No mention of sitting under the stars discussing hopes and dreams and fears and vulnerabilities. No mention of slipping out of a movie for a quicky in the cloakrooms. No mention of lying in bed in each others' arms, talking until the wee hours of the morning. No evidence of real passion, or real intimacy. Just this benign civility.

Oh come on.

"Taking them to eat in a nice restaurant, getting them a tasteful card on their birthday, being pleasant over dinner, etc seem to "prove", to those BWs, that they were still very much loved and valued by their WH". This is actually insulting. How do you even know this?

How can you compare being married for decades to an affair? How many spouses, after working all day and dealing with the kids and bills, regularly have spontaneous hot sex on the kitchen table or quickies in the movie theater or, for that matter, sit around gazing in each others' eyes for hours? Who does the laundry and dishes while all this gazing is happening?

And lying in bed in each others' arms until the wee hours, talking? Most of us have to get up and go to work in the morning.

May 15, 2015

Just this benign civility.

when TRULY blindsided - it is MUCH more than benign civility. me & my xH had all of this you described above... literally all of it until the very last day -- it doesn't mean anything if your spouse won't confront their own feelings.

also, true passion and intimacy change over years (not it's intensity but the way they're expressing) -- a relationship always in this blissful state that you've described actually isn't real and it never progresses.

when there is real love, real emotions and feelings going on in an A relationship - folks are rarely blindsided. it's impossible to miss that shift.

May 15, 2015

i must also say... working with couples i realized one thing -- this stereotype that many hang on to -- of a BS being this non-passionate, cold fish, that's okay with life without desire and crazy sex AND a WS being this extremely passionate being, fire that can't get any of that at home so he or she seek it elsewhere?

it's incredibly wrong and innaccurate in most cases.

May 15, 2015

Oh come on.

"Taking them to eat in a nice restaurant, getting them a tasteful card on their birthday, being pleasant over dinner, etc seem to "prove", to those BWs, that they were still very much loved and valued by their WH". This is actually insulting. How do you even know this?

.

I didn't find it insulting, more like predictable, amusing and delusional.

As if an OW is the only type of woman who knows what passion and intimacy feel like and whether or not they are experiencing it.

Putting aside couples who married for the wrong reasons and may never have felt that in their M, most people have experienced their version which may or may not include the things mentioned based on personal preferences. I know how my husband behaves when he is in love. To think that women who have had that experience with their spouses are unable to know whether or not their H is in love with them is delusional.

May 15, 2015

Perhaps it's not true of all BS, but from reading what many BW on the Infidelity board describe as "loving" behaviour from their WS (in explaining why they were so "blindsided" when discovering the A) it strikes me as little different from how one would treat a colleague or cousin. Taking them to eat in a nice restaurant, getting them a tasteful card on their birthday, being pleasant over dinner, etc seem to "prove", to those BWs, that they were still very much loved and valued by their WH. No mention of being unable to keep their hands off each other. No mention of staring into each others' eyes for ages, listing what they love about each other. No mention of spontaneous steamy sex on the kitchen table. No mention of sitting under the stars discussing hopes and dreams and fears and vulnerabilities. No mention of slipping out of a movie for a quicky in the cloakrooms. No mention of lying in bed in each others' arms, talking until the wee hours of the morning. No evidence of real passion, or real intimacy. Just this benign civility.

I think your expectations of what should happen after discovering infidelity is a little skewed. At least as a means to prove genuine "love". And just because they don't mention sex on the kitchen table, it doesn't mean it's not happening.

May 15, 2015

As the BS: The love I felt the strongest for 20 yrs, before the affair (ended 2 yrs ago) was when there were stolen moments or unexpected laughs either between just the 2 of us or with the kids. The unplanned stuff, not the naughtiness of hotels, that was fun lust and connecting, and sexy and awesome, but not the deep joy - sharing the paper over coffee (dating myself, who buys the paper anymore), cooking together for parties, our toddler telling a joke at the dinner table that only the immediate loved ones find hilarious, the firsts that only loving parents can share due to the bond. School performances that we share because no 2 other people on earth love those kids more than we do. The things that make you grin and tear up because their so special and fleeting. The joy of knowing our love and our commitment created a beautiful family. That effortless ease of just being together and knowing its forever because you trust each other. Knowing that where he is is where I want to be and knowing he felt the same. The mundane was really pleasant, compared to ugly drama. It was really lovely. Happily, I had a lot of those with him. My priority now is to launch my children and continue to try and model adult behaviour for them - keep promises, be dependable, show them how to stand back up after being treated poorly. They need one adult in their lives to respect, it's why I never thought of a revenge affair. He has to do a lot to regain their respect. We had planned such a fun future for when the kids were grown, and now I have to rethink it all. Illnesses, unexpected deaths and losses- the stuff of life you can't control is hard enough, knowing he purposely harmed us all is pretty tough. As an ow/om, it's probably hard to remember there's a real live person out there puking on the bathroom floor because he/she is suddenly so confusedand hurt and can't figure out why he/she is so far outside of the marriage yet still married.

May 15, 2015

Late to the party here.

Originally before my affair, I kind of liked her husband. Decent guy, the more I got involved, the more I hated him. He was controlling, selfish. She told me he was emotionally abusive. Then I really hated him.

On D Day he threatened me and i was ready to fight him right then and there.

For a long time I abhorred him, they got divorced, he cleaned her out and has not been good to her. But honestly since I broke it off, and realized what a train wreck she is, I began to sympathize with him.

She hated him, told him so, screwed around on him and basically sabotaged the marriage. Not that he was a sensitive guy, but had some anger issues.

Today, i am ambivalent. Days go by at a time when he doesn't cross my mind. I'm happy with that. I can't wait until days go by where she doesn't.

May 15, 2015

I remember feeling the same from my h and the ow too. At the time I was volunteering with the homeless and got my first job in 15 yrs (sahm) in a very prestigious job. Not lucrative but holy confidence booster at a time when I was being told I was sh$t. he belittled me, I was crushed. I was tap dancing to achieve and re enter the work force. He never told anyone what I accomplished because it didn't fit the "lazy ungrateful wife who's using me for my money and feeling sorry for herself" story line. I never got to like I had accomplished anything, it was painful. In those 24 mos however, I have achieved a lot, on my own, professionally.

Then she started to sour on him - and h had a different take on her bh. ("Pot smoking teacher part time musician who didn't care what she did") Because she would drop 4 active busy kids and a h on a whim on weekends to proposition my h if he told her we were having a good time together. He thought "what a lousy selfish mom, omg I'm an ass too." Same person went from top of the heap to bottom in a short time. Triangulating people is a bad way to live there's never a winner.

I'll wish for her to disappear from your mind if you would help erase the ow from mine. She's left a slimy skanky film on everything and I'd love to have it gone.

May 15, 2015

It's probably easier for me to not have a thought about the A or the swanky OW since I haven't heard from them in 4 years. It's been even longer since I had to put up with her talking to me. They got married <eye roll> I could probably work myself up into upset with her but 2 years afterwords I was just thankful she took him off my hands. We weren't happy. We weren't a good match. She just had some pretty **** timing since he knocked me up 2 months before telling me he was leaving. Lol. And we continued to have sex up to almost a yr after the divorce 8 years ago.

May 15, 2015

Also late to the party.

I demonized the BS. Hated her. Had no empathy whatsoever. I saw her as the one thing that came between him and me.

He didn't help things, of course. He spoke so badly of her, told me so many intimate details about her, and even confided that he had considered killing her so he could be with me.

Now I just see him as a passive aggressive coward who put her down yet didn't have the balls to do anything about it.

However, I still I guess am hanging onto old wounds. I still don't feel a lot of empathy towards her. She called me recently and left a message demanding to know if I had proof. I ignored her message. I still waffle about whether she should know but I would only be telling her now out of revenge.

May 15, 2015

I think your expectations of what should happen after discovering infidelity is a little skewed. At least as a means to prove genuine "love". And just because they don't mention sex on the kitchen table, it doesn't mean it's not happening.

I think that many people, especially those who have been married ( are in a long term relationship) a long time, do these things anyway, often without even knowing it.

It can be a real eye opener if the spouses take a break from day to day life to realize that they do these things that cement their bond together without even thinking about it.

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