The spouse

May 14, 2015

in my own experience -- almost all adulterers love their AP more, divorcing or not, cake eating or not... feelings that exist for the AP are almost always more intense, as simple as that.

no, it isn't. i'm always baffled when folks can't & don't understand that divorcing really ISN'T an option for many... for various reasons. some literally cannot afford to divorce, some have children with special needs that wouldn't handle 2 homes type of system... i mean, divorce is never easy unless you're financially secure & have no children. it's not some kind of walk in the park, it is NOT a simple decision. you have other lives to think about.

just because someone doesn't leave their spouse & marriage for the AP - it doesn't necessarily mean that they love & want the spouse more or that they had 0 feelings for the AP. trust me when i say (and i have a lot of experience) -- most stay married out of fear, they want to stay in their comfortable life, out of great guilt, sense of obligation... because it's easier -- it's almost NEVER out of their honest & true love for the spouse, it's out of love for the LIFE that they have with said spouse.

this is probably one of the biggest myths ever -- most folks cheat because there is something missing at home. every single time when i talk to a WS, they start with "oh, i'm happy with my marriage... this is just fun" -- you wouldn't believe how they twist that story once they get caught or divorced. suddenly, it turns out this was missing, that was missing, the spouse didn't do this or that right, they were unhappy.

DENIAL, my friend. never underestimate the power of denial.

also -- affairs help mantaining a dead marriage. you have a man who isn't treated well at home, doesn't get any but has an AP who gets all of that for him... that love and happiness from the A sometimes "crosses" over into the marriage so people really believe that they have a GOOD union at home.

nobody in a healthy relationship cheats because "they want more" -- that's something people tell themselves because they really don't want to face the truth, as simple as that.

I just posted two articles that referred to multiple scientific studies that have supported what I have said. The fact is you ladies are using your own personal experiences to draw inferences of the larger male cheating population. But I'm in denial. You know what, you ladies are right and the researchers with masters degrees and PhDs are wrong.

May 14, 2015

I just posted two articles that referred to multiple scientific studies that have supported what I have said. The fact is you ladies are using your own personal experiences to draw inferences of the larger male cheating population. But I'm in denial. You know what, you ladies are right and the researchers with masters degrees and PhDs are wrong.

actually, i'm using my experience as a therapist who works in marriage counseling & with couples who deal with infidelity.

i can assure you that those scientific studies are bogus because SCIENCE relies on FACTS. folks lie all the time and someone's opinions, feelings cannot ever be FACTS so you won't ever see or read about a serious scientist basing their research on what a flawed human says.

folks with masters & PhDs know that.

May 14, 2015

by the way, i checked those links and those are not scientific researches - those are SURVEYS... i mean, there is a difference.

May 14, 2015

My h emotionally left our m when he started his ea, then pa with his married co worker. I felt his rejection every day, but what he told me was that he was stressed, he was busy, he loved me, he wanted to go to mc - never told me he was unhappy with our marriage. I had my birthday 3 days after they consummated their relationship (limp middle aged sex in a cheap hotel, 2 pathetic people having pathetic sex) 3 days before my birthday. I burst into tears at my dinner because I couldn't figure out why he was being so distant. It was gut wrenching. Of course, he took me to a fancy place, treated me like crap, got home and texted his ap about how he had set up this beautiful dinner and had done so much for me only to have me upset and distraught. He took me there to show his ap what an awesome h he was and how awful his wife was. It's a complete mind f@&$. Their whole relationship was maintaining contact through impressing one another. He texted her before and after our mc sessions - " I pay top dollar for this therapy and my wife will not work on this marriage - can you believe my sad life?" It was as if my h decided what he thought a good husband would do, pretended to do it so he could tell his ap about it, then raged at me for questioning the sincerity of his actions.

Frankly, they dangled carrots in front of each other constantly, teasing. And in order for her to latch onto and um satisfy his dangling carrot, he couldn't say I love my wife, she's desperate to save our marriage and I'm treating her horribly. On her part, she intercepted him (work reasons) every time we had spent time away as a couple (which she knew about because he had to impress her) so as to make sure that we did not reconnect emotionally. They both manipulated each other constantly. I was in the dark the whole time, but doing back flips to work on my marriage. It was horrific and mentally debilitating.

She overplayed her hand by telling him she would leave her h & 4 kids for him and he ended it. She then sent messages for months that she knew I would see, I forwarded them to her h, and my h confessed & arranged an exit package for her. They had a 4 month pa, no one ever said I love you, she llost her job and reputation again (she had done this before, a lot) and her family lost their main source of income. My h lost the respect of me, his kids, his family, his colleagues and friends. For a 4 month pa.

He never told me he was unhappy with our marriage. But once she blew sunshine up his arse, he suddenly had a very long list of complaints about me. They're both damaged idiots who lied to everyone and themselves.

May 14, 2015

Midwest, I'm sorry you went through all that.

May 14, 2015

I just posted two articles that referred to multiple scientific studies that have supported what I have said. The fact is you ladies are using your own personal experiences to draw inferences of the larger male cheating population. But I'm in denial. You know what, you ladies are right and the researchers with masters degrees and PhDs are wrong.

I am a researcher with a masters degree in epidemiology and statistics, among other degrees, and it was my career to conduct scientific research for 14 years before I changed career direction.

Those are not scientific studies.

ALL I am saying is that you seem to have a need to lump people into categories, when not every particular situation follows a generalization. So yes, I will draw on my own personal experience when I answer questions about what emotions were felt in my own situation, not rely on a bunch of surveyed strangers to identify it for me.

May 14, 2015

Thanks Roseville. We've been together over 25 yrs, since we were teenagers. We had 20+ yrs of growing successful businesses, a beautiful family, homes, travel, success that we created and enjoyed together as true partners. We both came from modest families. He threw it away for an uneducated woman he was embarrassed to be seen with since professionally she was very crass and unpolished and behaved in an ugly way. It's crazy. On one hand she did what I couldn't do - drop everything ( her h and kids) for a quickie in a hotel, but at the same time he had no respect for someone who would drop her h and 4 kids on a Friday night for a quickie in a hotel room, no questions asked. And she wanted him to know he was more important than her family & thought that made her seem attractive. It's very juvenile thinking for 50 yr olds. Not sure where I'm headed rt now - we recently got a bad health diagnosis in the family which takes precedence over any marital problems. Bottom line: if you're an om/ow, your ap is lying to you about his/her marriage. Guaranteed.

May 14, 2015

Bottom line: if you're an om/ow, your ap is lying to you about his/her marriage. Guaranteed.

Respectfully, not always. That's your experience, but for many OW, the MM is really honest with her. Painfully so, sometimes.

May 14, 2015

My h emotionally left our m when he started his ea, then pa with his married co worker. I felt his rejection every day, but what he told me was that he was stressed, he was busy, he loved me, he wanted to go to mc - never told me he was unhappy with our marriage. I had my birthday 3 days after they consummated their relationship (limp middle aged sex in a cheap hotel, 2 pathetic people having pathetic sex) 3 days before my birthday. I burst into tears at my dinner because I couldn't figure out why he was being so distant. It was gut wrenching. Of course, he took me to a fancy place, treated me like crap, got home and texted his ap about how he had set up this beautiful dinner and had done so much for me only to have me upset and distraught. He took me there to show his ap what an awesome h he was and how awful his wife was. It's a complete mind f@&$. Their whole relationship was maintaining contact through impressing one another. He texted her before and after our mc sessions - " I pay top dollar for this therapy and my wife will not work on this marriage - can you believe my sad life?" It was as if my h decided what he thought a good husband would do, pretended to do it so he could tell his ap about it, then raged at me for questioning the sincerity of his actions.

Frankly, they dangled carrots in front of each other constantly, teasing. And in order for her to latch onto and um satisfy his dangling carrot, he couldn't say I love my wife, she's desperate to save our marriage and I'm treating her horribly. On her part, she intercepted him (work reasons) every time we had spent time away as a couple (which she knew about because he had to impress her) so as to make sure that we did not reconnect emotionally. They both manipulated each other constantly. I was in the dark the whole time, but doing back flips to work on my marriage. It was horrific and mentally debilitating.

She overplayed her hand by telling him she would leave her h & 4 kids for him and he ended it. She then sent messages for months that she knew I would see, I forwarded them to her h, and my h confessed & arranged an exit package for her. They had a 4 month pa, no one ever said I love you, she llost her job and reputation again (she had done this before, a lot) and her family lost their main source of income. My h lost the respect of me, his kids, his family, his colleagues and friends. For a 4 month pa.

He never told me he was unhappy with our marriage. But once she blew sunshine up his arse, he suddenly had a very long list of complaints about me. They're both damaged idiots who lied to everyone and themselves.

Thank you for sharing this. It really helps me see the BS perspective. I'm sorry this happened to you. I hope you are feeling better now.

May 14, 2015

Roseville I'll restate: the married ap is always a liar. He/she may not always lie to both the ap and the bs all the time, but it is impossible to have an affair, or any sort of triangulated relationship where one person is in the dark, without lying. If there are no secrets or lies, it's an open marriage in my opinion, not an affair.

May 14, 2015

nobody in a healthy relationship cheats because "they want more" -- that's something people tell themselves because they really don't want to face the truth, as simple as that.

There are numerous WS's on this board alone - especially WW's - who have admitted to being in good M's and cheated for various reasons, "wanting more" among them. And these are people who, from what I recall, are either in or have been to counseling. Don't argue a generalization with your own generalization. If you want to argue that in the moment of the A that the WS generally cares more about the AP....you may have a point. But I would say that, based on personal experience and my experience on this board, that preference for the AP more often than not reverts over time. Even if there's no R between WS and BS. My WW cared more for the OM than me during her A. I know this. I would even admit we didn't have a healthy M at that point. But we've R'd, to this point successfully and happily, and not out of fear or any other reason that you stated. In her words, she couldn't "give a f*ck about him".

May 14, 2015

There are numerous WS's on this board alone - especially WW's - who have admitted to being in good M's and cheated for various reasons, "wanting more" among them.

being in a good M =\= being happy. a good marriage sometimes isn't enough & you find something even better -- it is not always a choice between bad & good... sometimes you choose between good and fantastic.

that being said, you can be in a great marriage and still be unhappy & missing something - that is the point.

serial cheaters & folks with some kind of trauma or abuse issues... personality disorders - all of that aside. a healthy and well balanced person in a healthy and happy relationship won't risk it all for "more" -- it is the truth many refuse to face. because if they did? you'd have a lot more BSs walking away.

If you want to argue that in the moment of the A that the WS generally cares more about the AP....you may have a point. But I would say that, based on personal experience and my experience on this board, that preference for the AP more often than not reverts over time.

a WS can stop caring for the AP - but in my own experience (not saying this is some kind of fact, just my own experience) they rarely go back to true & honest feelings for their BS. once the A happens, those feelings vanish and they rarely come back.

again... all of this is just my experience from talking and discussing with former WSs, not saying that it's like that with everyone. i might be totally and completely wrong - not denying that at all. but for now -- this is my opinion based on experience so far -- maybe i'll sing a different tune in the future... who knows.

May 14, 2015

There are numerous WS's on this board alone - especially WW's - who have admitted to being in good M's and cheated for various reasons, "wanting more" among them. And these are people who, from what I recall, are either in or have been to counseling. Don't argue a generalization with your own generalization. If you want to argue that in the moment of the A that the WS generally cares more about the AP....you may have a point. But I would say that, based on personal experience and my experience on this board, that preference for the AP more often than not reverts over time. Even if there's no R between WS and BS. My WW cared more for the OM than me during her A. I know this. I would even admit we didn't have a healthy M at that point. But we've R'd, to this point successfully and happily, and not out of fear or any other reason that you stated. In her words, she couldn't "give a f*ck about him".

I think there's a lot of truth in this statement too, Sub. In my case, in time my feelings changed for the exAP too. My H and I are doing well in R as well.

Maybe it's because of the environment I was raised in and the fact that almost every single person on both sides of my family have divorced at least once. I think good relationships are hard to come by. It will never make any sense to me why a happily married person with a good sex life would risk it all by cheating. BTW, a lot of the WW's on this board who state they are happily married also have stated they are missing something. Whether it's sex , romance, or emotional attention, etc. Most of them state they are missing something that's important to them in their M's.

May 14, 2015

Roseville I'll restate: the married ap is always a liar. He/she may not always lie to both the ap and the bs all the time, but it is impossible to have an affair, or any sort of triangulated relationship where one person is in the dark, without lying. If there are no secrets or lies, it's an open marriage in my opinion, not an affair.

Yeah, that's a completely different statement. Obviously, in order to carry on the A, the WS has to lie to their BS, at the very least. But that still doesn't mean that the WS lies to their AP.

And as I've said before, anyone who claims to have never lied is a liar. We all lie.

May 14, 2015

It couldn't have started off with the "I love you aspect," right? So how did you fall into it?

Your right, in the beginning there were no "I love you's". I drive myself crazy with questions and I rarely have many answers. I don't know why this happened. I do know I did it and I did it willingly. But I can't pinpoint why. I'm not a bad person and I have a good heart. I think I just let my heart and emotions lead me, when I should have let my brain.

May 14, 2015

And as I've said before, anyone who claims to have never lied is a liar. We all lie.

Yes we do. And in many schools of moral philosophy all lies are equal.

But in the real world, they're not. I imagine almost all of us tell white lies, little lies of social convenience, little or middlin' lies to hide shame or embarrassement when we have done something we should not have, or broken a committment. Most of us are human and flawed.

But in my mind, there are lies and then their are lies. To me, there is a difference between the small lies of daily life we say out of our weakness, and the big lies people tell their committed partners when they betray them emotionally and sexually. Becuase those big lies come from a place that is cold and lacking in empathy, a place that is the antithesis of love.

There has been a lot of debate about what love is in this thread. Not surprising, love is a mushy and imprecise word covering everything from infatuation to limerance to deep committment, and covering feelings that are sexual and feelings that are not.

Instead of love, I always prefer to talk about empathy. To me, mature love between committed partners is empathetic love. It's "cut her, I bleed.". Its an empathy that precludes betrayal, because even contemplating betrayal evokes the thought of how your partner would feel if she knew, and that cuts you to the core, revolts you. "Cut her, even in imagination, I bleed."

Affairs don't start until that kind of empathy has died. And that's what makes the lies of affairs so upsetting to me. They come from a place of "cut her, I feel... Nothing"

While not quite as disturbing, the lies single APs involved with committed people tell themselves are also disturbing. The idea of aiding in the profound betrayal of another human being should disturb us. It should evoke empathy, empathy born in the awareness that no one, no matter what their flaws, deserves that kind of treatment. But again, the empathy we would normally feel gets interrupted, lulled, muzzled, ignored, stuffed, silenced. Because killing off the empathy that normally motives you to treat others basically decently is the price of getting the affair. And you want the affair.

So the way I see it, on all sides, death of empathy in both affair partners is the precondition for an affair. And to me, the death of empathy is the death of the capacity for healthy love.

May 14, 2015

Can't say I agree with any of that, Owl. I feel empathy, and I definitely have the capacity for love.

May 14, 2015

Yes we do. And in many schools of moral philosophy all lies are equal.

But in the real world, they're not. I imagine almost all of us tell white lies, little lies of social convenience, little or middlin' lies to hide shame or embarrassement when we have done something we should not have, or broken a committment. Most of us are human and flawed.

But in my mind, there are lies and then their are lies. To me, there is a difference between the small lies of daily life we say out of our weakness, and the big lies people tell their committed partners when they betray them emotionally and sexually. Becuase those big lies come from a place that is cold and lacking in empathy, a place that is the antithesis of love.

There has been a lot of debate about what love is in this thread. Not surprising, love is a mushy and imprecise word covering everything from infatuation to limerance to deep committment, and covering feelings that are sexual and feelings that are not.

Instead of love, I always prefer to talk about empathy. To me, mature love between committed partners is empathetic love. It's "cut her, I bleed.". Its an empathy that precludes betrayal, because even contemplating betrayal evokes the thought of how your partner would feel if she knew, and that cuts you to the core, revolts you. "Cut her, even in imagination, I bleed."

Affairs don't start until that kind of empathy has died. And that's what makes the lies of affairs so upsetting to me. They come from a place of "cut her, I feel... Nothing"

While not quite as disturbing, the lies single APs involved with committed people tell themselves are also disturbing. The idea of aiding in the profound betrayal of another human being should disturb us. It should evoke empathy, empathy born in the awareness that no one, no matter what their flaws, deserves that kind of treatment. But again, the empathy we would normally feel gets interrupted, lulled, muzzled, ignored, stuffed, silenced. Because killing off the empathy that normally motives you to treat others basically decently is the price of getting the affair. And you want the affair.

So the way I see it, on all sides, death of empathy in both affair partners is the precondition for an affair. And to me, the death of empathy is the death of the capacity for healthy love.

I would have to agree with the bolded. I had no empathy for my WH when I had my revenge affair. My WH had no empathy towards me during his whole 3 year A. I agree with this viewpoint, it may not be true in all cases, but definitely was spot on in mine.

May 15, 2015

He has stated he does not want to think about her feelings. Yup. That's not his empathy is dead though. Compartmentalizing. Blocking it out.

May 15, 2015

I agree about the empathy. I don't think most of them are like sociopaths who never feel empathy. I think they have conditioned themselves to numb those feelings out. They are conflict avoiders, even with themselves. Guilt, shame, empathy creates a conflict because they don't want to give up the affair, so they avoid thinking about it.

May 15, 2015

I would have to agree with the bolded. I had no empathy for my WH when I had my revenge affair. My WH had no empathy towards me during his whole 3 year A. I agree with this viewpoint, it may not be true in all cases, but definitely was spot on in mine.

I agree with that bolded statement, too. I had no empathy when I had my exit EA. I felt justified, as many WS do, because I had been mistreated, neglected, and diminished for so many years. This doesn't mean I lack empathy in general, just that I lacked it for my ex-H.

One could make a reasonable argument that I had the EA because I wanted to get caught, so I could get a D, which is what I really wanted all along. I wonder how often this is what's going on in A's.

In any case, I do strongly agree that one cannot have empathy for a spouse and also have an A. I believe empathy is a foundational element of love. Why one lacks empathy is a complex question, and Mariah has outlined some possible reasons. While it's easy to go to the "he's a narcissist or sociopath place," (I've done it, too) the statistical truth is that those folks are relatively rare. Far fewer of them than there are cheaters. So is it that the WS no longer really loves the BS? That our society lacks empathy in general?

May 15, 2015

Love doesn't necessarily mean monogamy. I love multiple friends, multiple family members. MM love multiple women, in a deep-care-for way, but are only "in love" with one of them.

So I know more about where you are coming from, please define " in love"? What does it mean to you, and how is it expressed ( beyond sex)?

May 15, 2015

And this is the man who slept with other women throughout their courtship, engagement, and early years of marriage...possibly including her first pregnancy. That's how he shows his love and commitment. That's how he shows he is happy at home.

Sounds more like he loves himself, but when it comes to anyone else, not really.

May 15, 2015

I wouldn't say many WHs feel this way. One of the things that has been mentioned a lot on this site is that men can compartamentalize these things a lot better than woman can a fact that a lot of OW hate hearing, which is completely understandable. Their affairs aren't "instead of" but usually "in addition to." Because you're relatively new here, you probably havent heard this yet, but for a lot of these men, they aren't having affairs to seek out something missing in their marriage because usually they get it regularly. Ask a lot of the BWs on here. I know it might suck to hear, but a lot of these men actually do love their wives and not in the manner you speak of. The issue is they love themselves more.

When it comes right down to it, how can anyone really know if the words "i love you" , as said by someone who is cheating, are true, whether they are said to the spouse or the other person.

Honestly, if ( for the sake of argument, let's say the ws is a man) is treating a woman the way he treats either of these two women he is involved with, that doesn't sound much like "love" for either party.

he loves his wife, yet he cheats on her, emotionally, physically or both

he loves his ow, yet he goes home to his wife and acts loving towards her...in essence , he is cheating on that relationship too. He knows his ow is hurting, being aware that he is with his wife and not her, yet that isn't enough to make him take stock of his life and leave to eb with her, or, if he can't , to let her go so she can move on and find someone who can be there for her the way she deserves.

Now tell me, who does he really love? Sounds like he loves himself most of all, and the pity of it is that there are two women willing to try and compete with one another ( even if one doesn't know she is doing so) for his attention and affection.

May 15, 2015

I felt immense guilt pre-A towards his W. I felt like the grossest human ever for being complicit. Then, slowly, I learned that I needed to grieve for her. She learned he hadn't been faithful at all to her just after they married and she made a decision to stay with a man she knew would fool around s long as his mind and body worked in unison. She made the best of a losing situation with a man who enjoyed shaping her mentally into his idea of a W while complaining about her and degrading her behind her back.

And I feel bad for hoping she stays married to him so no one else has to deal with his issues.

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