LookAtThisPOst Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) Sorry, on our first 3 dates you could be more honest than the pope and genuine, I have NO way to know so I am not going to give it any value. I don't believe one word coming out of a man's mouth on our first 3 dates. He can make a bold gesture, he can say or do anything coming out of a fairy tale story, I won't believe one bit of it. On our first 3 dates you are a stranger to me so be on your best behavior to allow me to lower my guards. It's no time for bold gestures. WTF kind of reasoning is this?! Bold gestures and building rapport are two separate things. Building rapport does not mean sexual, if that's what you thought it meant. Going into a date, both members want to try to build a rapport. A bold gesture can be something sexual, like heavy flirting, kissing from the first moment of meeting, or simply letting a woman know she is very beautiful. So if you don't believe in building rapport, then how, by your definition, would two people date and progress into a relationship? Give it up dude, these women tend to have a reason to shame men in whatever kind of actions they make, even if it's straight, heterosexual behavior. Imagine a maze, if you will or a logic flow short that has no exit...kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't situation these women tend to put men into. lol. Edited May 17, 2015 by LookAtThisPOst
DivorcedDad123 Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 I think what shes meaning is that, trust has to be earned. You cant blindly trust what someone says upon the first few dates. This goes for women too. People lie. Once you've gotten to know them better and can confirm their claims, then you can begin to build trust in them. Especially important when a stranger you've never met is involved. 2
katiegrl Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) If you really do this, then you are wasting everyone's time with dating. As you admitted in the boldface, you'll never trust a man. Why even go past one date, or better yet, even go on a date at all, if you have no trust right from the start? Bold gestures and building rapport are two separate things. Building rapport does not mean sexual, if that's what you thought it meant. Going into a date, both members want to try to build a rapport. A bold gesture can be something sexual, like heavy flirting, kissing from the first moment of meeting, or simply letting a woman know she is very beautiful. So if you don't believe in building rapport, then how, by your definition, would two people date and progress into a relationship? Also I can't image what Plan B is for you. You have me at a disadvantage, because I have no idea what you mean by this. First paragraph: On behalf of Gaeta, trust is EARNED, so no of course you don't fully trust on the first few dates...and "you" shouldn't fully trust her either...until SHE *earns* it. Keep an open mind, spend time together and enjoy, but with all the lying, scamming, etc. going on these days, don't give your heart away and/or believe everything said, until such time you've spent some time together, gotten to know each other, and trust is developed...on both sides. Second paragraph: What did *I* mean by rapport? LOL, read your earlier response to Gaeta. YOU were the one who said you give *bold gestures* and develop "rapport" with women, but that they freak out regardless. So perhaps it is *you* who needs to answer that question dude, since *you* were the one who said the *rapport* you develop freaks them out. And with regard to Plan B, again *you* are the one who needs to figure that out, since apparently Plan A (giving bold gestures and developing *rapport*)...isn't working for ya! Cause if it was, women wouldn't be freaking out, right? I don't need to worry about Plan B, I have a boyfriend, 5+ years. My comment "and that my friend is a man's cop out," was a JOKE (tongue-n cheek)...lol....I was only mirroring what YOU had said yourself in your earlier post (no 93, second sentence) to Gaeta....that HER response was a *woman's* cop out. :bunny: Edited May 17, 2015 by katiegrl 1
beaten Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 WTF kind of reasoning is this?! Give it up dude, these women tend to have a reason to shame men in whatever kind of actions they make, even if it's straight, heterosexual behavior. Imagine a maze, if you will or a logic flow short that has no exit...kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't situation these women tend to put men into. lol. I couldn't have described the hell that is dating any better. I'm mid forties and I've packed it in. It's truly a maze with no way out and each one is a different maze. Call or text too soon or not soon enough and it's over. One wrong word and it's over. Whatever She wants which I have no idea what, I can't deliver. You are spot on with your assessment. The women come into the first date not trusting and doing whatever they can to make it fail and unless you're smooth as silk there's absolutely no way there will be a date 2, let alone a 3 and a 4. She expects you to make a move or the romantic interest disappears in an instant. If you time it wrong, you're literally a creep to her. Even more amazing is the men that can get through those dates are awful scums, but they are adept at playing the game. Women do love fitness so if fitness fan is truly fit he will have more room for error and shouldn't wind up alone.
beaten Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 I think what shes meaning is that, trust has to be earned. You cant blindly trust what someone says upon the first few dates. This goes for women too. People lie. Once you've gotten to know them better and can confirm their claims, then you can begin to build trust in them. Especially important when a stranger you've never met is involved. No it goes beyond that. She assumes you are a bad and dangerous man unless you prove otherwise, but at the same time she expects you to be at your very best. I don't know about you but I'm quite nervous sitting across from a woman who assumes the worst. Don't even get me started on how much women bring up their exes on first dates. Why? Do I just nod when she is ranting about the on again off again ex why she just left last week? I'll never know.
Gaeta Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 No it goes beyond that. She assumes you are a bad and dangerous man unless you prove otherwise, but at the same time she expects you to be at your very best. I don't know about you but I'm quite nervous sitting across from a woman who assumes the worst. Don't even get me started on how much women bring up their exes on first dates. Why? Do I just nod when she is ranting about the on again off again ex why she just left last week? I'll never know. Nope, I won't assume you are bad or dangerous. I will just assume you're a liar and are only interested in a hook up. Is that better? So when you meet me keep your sex jokes to yourself and don't drool over my boobs. Is that too much to ask? 2
katiegrl Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 Nope, I won't assume you are bad or dangerous. I will just assume you're a liar and are only interested in a hook up. Is that better? So when you meet me keep your sex jokes to yourself and don't drool over my boobs. Is that too much to ask? LOL....nearly spit out my coffee after reading that....:laugh: Nuff said. IBTL 1
beaten Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 Nope, I won't assume you are bad or dangerous. I will just assume you're a liar and are only interested in a hook up. Is that better? So when you meet me keep your sex jokes to yourself and don't drool over my boobs. Is that too much to ask? It's meaningless to ask because I don't do that. More maddening is the amount of guys that do exactly that, having her jokingly say stop it, and him ending up coupled with her. No idea what you want, but I've had it after constant heartache. Being alone on a Friday night is less painful than going on a date with a woman. No exaggeration. There is no joy in dating whatsoever. Then why even have a conversation if everything will be assumed to be a lie? Since I was never just in it for hookups no it is not better. In fact I've been asked by women on dates if I'm just in it for the hook up, I say no and they don't believe me. It's a no win maze that can't be escaped, quoting LookAtThisPost. I'm out of the dating mazes for good.
katiegrl Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) It's meaningless to ask because I don't do that. More maddening is the amount of guys that do exactly that, having her jokingly say stop it, and him ending up coupled with her. No idea what you want, but I've had it after constant heartache. Being alone on a Friday night is less painful than going on a date with a woman. No exaggeration. There is no joy in dating whatsoever. Then why even have a conversation if everything will be assumed to be a lie? Since I was never just in it for hookups no it is not better. In fact I've been asked by women on dates if I'm just in it for the hook up, I say no and they don't believe me. It's a no win maze that can't be escaped, quoting LookAtThisPost. ** I'm out of the dating mazes for good**. ^^Given how you feel, which I am not saying isn't isn't justified, that's probably best... And who knows, if my bf and I ever broke up, I might come to feel the same as you.. Not sure what happened, but dating has changed a lot in past few years. Maybe cuz of the internet I don't know. But after listening to what some of my friends go through, combined with reading stories here...dating is difficult for both genders. Lying, scamming, catfishing, grass is greener syndrome, circular dating, one has to wonder how any two people can truly come together anymore. Nothing wrong with being alone... important thing is to be happy and feel at peace... Edited May 17, 2015 by katiegrl
beaten Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 ^^Given how you feel, which I am not saying isn't isn't justified, that's probably best... And who knows, if my bf and I ever broke up, I might come to feel the same as you.. Not sure what happened, but dating has changed a lot in past few years. Maybe cuz of the internet I don't know. But after listening to what some of my friends go through, combined with reading stories here...dating is difficult for both genders. Lying, scamming, catfishing, grass is greener syndrome, one has to wonder how any two people can truly come together anymore. Nothing wrong with being alone... important thing is to be happy and feel at peace... I'm 46 and it's gotten worse and worse. I wish I way happy and at peace but I'd be lying. Partially kind of sort of. I'm a straightforward man but I believe subtlety and knowing how to play the game is rewarded handsomely. Whether I'm right or wrong, it's permanently over for me.
katiegrl Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 I'm 46 and it's gotten worse and worse. I wish I way happy and at peace but I'd be lying. Partially kind of sort of. I'm a straightforward man but I believe subtlety and knowing how to play the game is rewarded handsomely. Whether I'm right or wrong, it's permanently over for me. Plan B -- work on becoming happy and feeling at peace *within yourself.* Doing for others (volunteering for example) is a great way to raise one's self-esteem. It makes those you're "doing for" happy, which in turns makes you feel good and happy. The positive feedback you receive will put you on Cloud 9...you don't necessarily need a woman for that. Take a class at your local college, join a movie or book club, NOT to meet women per se, but to meet new people and make new friends. You are ONLY 46, you have a good 35+ years of life let! And I know you said you are not seeking a relationship, but for the record my dad did not meet the love of his life until he was 55!!! They got married two years later....she was 52!
Frank2thepoint Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 I think what shes meaning is that, trust has to be earned. You cant blindly trust what someone says upon the first few dates. This goes for women too. People lie. Once you've gotten to know them better and can confirm their claims, then you can begin to build trust in them. Especially important when a stranger you've never met is involved. First paragraph: On behalf of Gaeta, trust is EARNED, so no of course you don't fully trust on the first few dates...and "you" shouldn't fully trust her either...until SHE *earns* it. I agree trust is earned. But Gaeta's exact words were "I don't believe one word coming out of a man's mouth on our first 3 dates." That's just means she, and any other woman that proselytizes to that idea, will not even believe anything a man says, even his name. Such a lack of trust is already setting up a date for failure. Keep an open mind, spend time together and enjoy, but with all the lying, scamming, etc. going on these days, don't give your heart away and/or believe everything said, until such time you've spent some time together, gotten to know each other, and trust is developed...on both sides. This part is actually different from what Gaeta was saying. This part is understandable and healthy. You are at least giving the person a chance, willing to get to know them. Gaeta's message was more like the man has to jump through hoops like a circus animal to prove his worth. And even if he does successfully make it past one barrier, according to her, she wouldn't believe it to be true. Just smoke and mirrors. Second paragraph: What did *I* mean by rapport? LOL, read your earlier response to Gaeta. YOU were the one who said you give *bold gestures* and develop "rapport" with women, but that they freak out regardless. So perhaps it is *you* who needs to answer that question dude, since *you* were the one who said the *rapport* you develop freaks them out. Again it was referencing Gaeta's post of her advising FitnessFan not resort to bold gestures, but to build rapport. I gave an example, where I did both and had a negative experience. Also it was not all women, because I have been in relationships. I already convinced myself of the answer of what freaks them out. They can't handle this sexy and passionate man that I am. And with regard to Plan B, again *you* are the one who needs to figure that out, since apparently Plan A (giving bold gestures and developing *rapport*)...isn't working for ya! Cause if it was, women wouldn't be freaking out, right? You mentioned a Plan B, and I was just figuring you would clarify it at some point. I actually don't need a Plan B, or Plan A even. If I get a date, great. If it becomes a relationship, great. If none of that happens, still great. As much as I may get frustrated with dating, which is a normal reaction anyway, I'm not crying about it or think my life has ended. Plan B -- work on becoming happy and feeling at peace *within yourself.* And now you explain what you meant by Plan B. Took you a few posts, but you got it out there.
Toodaloo Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 I agree trust is earned. But Gaeta's exact words were "I don't believe one word coming out of a man's mouth on our first 3 dates." That's just means she, and any other woman that proselytizes to that idea, will not even believe anything a man says, even his name. Such a lack of trust is already setting up a date for failure. Or is it just protecting yourself from even more pain and hurt? As someone who has serious issues with trust I can tell you its the swine who took their time cultivating my trust that broke it in far worse ways than the bastards. If you date a bastard at least you know what you are getting. This part is actually different from what Gaeta was saying. This part is understandable and healthy. You are at least giving the person a chance, willing to get to know them. Gaeta's message was more like the man has to jump through hoops like a circus animal to prove his worth. And even if he does successfully make it past one barrier, according to her, she wouldn't believe it to be true. Just smoke and mirrors. Again its a trust issue. When you have been shat upon from a great height you don't want to close yourself off but you find yourself on "edge" for the weirdest of reasons... Constantly at the back of your mind you have the question "Is this guy the great one or is he just like all the others" Again it was referencing Gaeta's post of her advising FitnessFan not resort to bold gestures, but to build rapport. I gave an example, where I did both and had a negative experience. Also it was not all women, because I have been in relationships. Like women guys get hurt too... Its about keeping an open dialogue so you know what is appropriate for each individual. I already convinced myself of the answer of what freaks them out. They can't handle this sexy and passionate man that I am. Or perhaps they are worried that this sexy passionate man is going to ditch them as fast as hot cakes when he gets bored? Just to argue the point that everyone is different and unless we ask the questions and pay attention to the answers be them verbal or non verbal we have no hope in hell of ever getting it right. None of us do... I give up with it all. Damned if you do and damned if you don't so may as well just be yourself and carry on regardless.
Gaeta Posted May 18, 2015 Posted May 18, 2015 will not even believe anything a man says, even his name. Such a lack of trust is already setting up a date for failure. Yes men have lied to me on every possible facets of them. From their marital status to their name, yes I have met men that have lied about their names. Sure I don't take for granted anything they tell me on our first 3 dates but the fact I am showing up, giving them my time and attention means I am giving them the benefit of the doubt. This part is actually different from what Gaeta was saying. This part is understandable and healthy. You are at least giving the person a chance, willing to get to know them. Gaeta's message was more like the man has to jump through hoops like a circus animal to prove his worth. And even if he does successfully make it past one barrier, according to her, she wouldn't believe it to be true. Just smoke and mirrors. Have you followed my threads on here? If you had than you'd know I do not make men jump through loops. I am actually quite patient and flexible and I always forgive the first faux-pas sometimes the second too. Again it was referencing Gaeta's post of her advising FitnessFan not resort to bold gestures, but to build rapport. I gave an example, where I did both and had a negative experience. It's the name of the game. I too invest my best and I get kicked in the head. The difference between you, others and I is that I don't give up. I get up, dust myself, and get back on the saddle. I've done that 100 + times now and I am still going. I already convinced myself of the answer of what freaks them out. They can't handle this sexy and passionate man that I am.. They simply did not connect with you. As simple as that. You mentioned a Plan B, and I was just figuring you would clarify it at some point. I actually don't need a Plan B, or Plan A even. If I get a date, great. If it becomes a relationship, great. If none of that happens, still great. As much as I may get frustrated with dating, which is a normal reaction anyway, I'm not crying about it or think my life has ended. If you don't have a plan then you can't complain of not having results. Someone going with the flow will get just that 'going with the flow'. I believe when you want something in life you set up for it. It's like you're saying I want a retirement plan and I'll put money aside once in a while when I can. Don't expect to be retiring in Barbados with an approach like that.
Frank2thepoint Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 Or is it just protecting yourself from even more pain and hurt? As someone who has serious issues with trust I can tell you its the swine who took their time cultivating my trust that broke it in far worse ways than the bastards. If you date a bastard at least you know what you are getting. Again its a trust issue. When you have been shat upon from a great height you don't want to close yourself off but you find yourself on "edge" for the weirdest of reasons... Constantly at the back of your mind you have the question "Is this guy the great one or is he just like all the others" Like women guys get hurt too... Its about keeping an open dialogue so you know what is appropriate for each individual. Or perhaps they are worried that this sexy passionate man is going to ditch them as fast as hot cakes when he gets bored? Just to argue the point that everyone is different and unless we ask the questions and pay attention to the answers be them verbal or non verbal we have no hope in hell of ever getting it right. None of us do... I give up with it all. Damned if you do and damned if you don't so may as well just be yourself and carry on regardless. If you consistently had bad dates/relationships from the moment you began dating at whatever age, then I can understand having little to no trust. But if some were bad and some were good, looking at the negative all the time, preparing for when you'll get hurt, is unhealthy paranoia, especially if the person isn't exhibiting "red flag" worthy signs. Besides, dating and life are about experiences and how you learn from them. The mistakes you've made in past dates or relationships you learn from, but not use as an excuse to shield yourself from future opportunities. Yes men have lied to me on every possible facets of them. From their marital status to their name, yes I have met men that have lied about their names. Sure I don't take for granted anything they tell me on our first 3 dates but the fact I am showing up, giving them my time and attention means I am giving them the benefit of the doubt. Have you followed my threads on here? If you had than you'd know I do not make men jump through loops. I am actually quite patient and flexible and I always forgive the first faux-pas sometimes the second too. It's the name of the game. I too invest my best and I get kicked in the head. The difference between you, others and I is that I don't give up. I get up, dust myself, and get back on the saddle. I've done that 100 + times now and I am still going. If you don't have a plan then you can't complain of not having results. Someone going with the flow will get just that 'going with the flow'. I believe when you want something in life you set up for it. It's like you're saying I want a retirement plan and I'll put money aside once in a while when I can. Don't expect to be retiring in Barbados with an approach like that. I'm sorry men have lied to you even about their names. It's unfortunate and sets a low bar that a person is willing to lie about their own name. Lying about marital status is nothing new, but it is still disgusting. Regardless, I don't follow your threads or anyone's, I just read what I come across. All I know so far, that you had over 100 dates, and not one has become a relationship. Of course I don't know this for sure because I don't follow you around on LS. In addition, I don't know if finding a relationship is your plan. But what you wrote here differs from what you wrote a few pages ago in this thread. Now you say you are patient and flexible. That's an opposing statement from you not trusting a single word a man says before three dates. Lack of trust the first three dates is definitely inflexible. Also, planning for retirement is completely different than planning on a relationship. Retirement is something in your control. You can make adjustments to your expenditure, how much you invest, and even predict the length of time and amount you need for a nice nest egg. Relationships cannot be planned, because another individual is involved. You can hope to attract a partner that you can respect and will respect you in return, fulfill your desires, and keep exciting you for a long period of time.
Gaeta Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 But what you wrote here differs from what you wrote a few pages ago in this thread. Now you say you are patient and flexible. That's an opposing statement from you not trusting a single word a man says before three dates. Lack of trust the first three dates is definitely inflexible. I don't give them my trust and no one should give their trust that easily in such a short time. So yes I don't trust them but I trust life so I keep showing up and hoping one day one of these gentlemen will end up genuine.
Toodaloo Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 The mistakes you've made in past dates or relationships you learn from, but not use as an excuse to shield yourself from future opportunities. Frank. This really does depend on just how much those past mistakes took from you. There are some things that no matter how confident you are, no matter how much you get on with the opposite sex in general and no matter how much therapy and counselling and self help books you go through... it still leaves you jittery. You may want desperately to just relax and trust someone but getting there is always going to be an uphill battle. My last mistake was initially lovely. If you met him you would enjoy his company and you would think he was a great kind of guy. As for what that mistake took from me. Well I am sorry, I have been over this time and time again. I see no point in going over it all again this time just for the sake of it. I can't be bothered. It would serve no use to anyone in this particular discussion. As for Gaeta. Yes she has dated more men than I have had hot dinners. She is determined and astute. She pays attention to those "red flags" you describe. Thats where you and I are different from Gaeta. We give up and take breaks. We just stop looking and quietly withdraw from it all. Gaeta doesn't - she keeps going and marching forward. She doesn't allow her preconceived ideas to prevent her from meeting new people. I actually take my hat off to her for that. There is only one solution to the problem you describe. Time. Time and effort and plugging away at it until you do meet that someone special who is also into you. Right now I just don't know if I can be bothered any more. Every man I have met that I have been interested in, during the past 6 months, has gone a bit loopy on me in one way or another or simply can't be bothered. Why should I keep putting effort into people that are just going to behave so badly? I am not asking for deep emotional connection straight away, just some basic common decency and general good manners wouldn't go a miss! Someone remotely normal with a touch of adventure (meaning get up and go and who enjoys getting up and going to do things and see places - NOT get up and go getting into someone elses knickers....). So back to topic and the question of space. Currently any of my previous dates can have all the space they want! Just don't come into mine!!! 1
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