htx Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 I'd like to get your thoughts on this...it seems like every time I try to cover *roughly* half of expenses in dating/a relationship, guys tend to lose interest, or at least don't seem to find it attractive. My roommate and coworker will date several guys at once and willingly admit they have an entitled attitude - they think men (most they're not even dating!) should always offer to buy them drinks, expensive jewelry, purses, etc. And these dudes are just falling over themselves to do whatever they ask - it's like they get off on the entitled "princess" attitude. I was raised to always offer to pay and that relationships, even early on in the dating stages, should be relatively equal and you should take turns paying for each other. It's just frustrating, I could easily go out an manipulate men into paying for all my **** (I've turned down money/gifts in the past from men I wasn't interested in) but what really eats at me is even modern men (at least in my area apparently) don't seem to respect a woman who pulls her weight and gladly tries to make sure he isn't blowing all his cash on her. It's as if the little whiny entitled attitude is like catnip to some men the way aloof-ness and ******* attitudes turn on some women. Anyone else notice anything similar?
fitnessfan365 Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 I'm old fashioned, and like being a gentleman. However, I also appreciate when a woman shows generosity. After all, no one likes to be in anything one sided. So if she plans/pays once and awhile, that's great. Also, if I plan something that might have multiple expenses and she pays for the second thing that's awesome too. BTW - The guys that you mentioned acting like p-whipped chumps make me sick. It's one thing if you see a piece of lingerie or a dress your woman would look good in, and surprise her with it. It's another to constantly be buying a woman gifts just because she asks. I guess backbone takes a backseat to sex these days for some guys. Haha
Gaeta Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 Let a man treat you on the first 2-3 dates then threat him 100% then each your turn. If you meet a man and you insist on paying on those first dates it sends him the signals you are not interested in him romantically. It may appear weird for you but that's still how men feel.
d0nnivain Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 I am a woman but I never noticed anything similar. Other than I agree that it's polite, especially in this day & age to offer to pay half especially on the 1st date, I think sitting back & letting men pay is not manipulating anybody. It's pretty easy to read the body language of a guy who resents anything other than Dutch treat in which case you whip out your wallet but some of it remains primal: men value things they have to work for and they want to prove to the right woman that they are good providers. By shoving your equality down the wrong guy's throat you are in some ways emasculating him. At that point, he's no fun to date. Let a man treat you. Let them be men. I'm not saying don't reciprocate. I am certainly not suggesting you use men for the stuff they will give you or the things they can buy you but let them be men. When we were younger many of my female friends & a lot more acquaintances wondered why men opened doors for me & pulled out chairs & did other sweet gestures. I wondered too & started observing my friend's behaviors. The 1st thing I noticed is this women would practically race to doors & yank them open. They'd pay checks when the guy got up to go to the bathroom after dinner. Then these women would complain that I got treated so well when they did not. I suggested they learn to hesitate. You have to give the guy a chance. If you are competing with him to beat him to the door or check, he's not going to be chivalrous. It's a date not a competition. 2
MissBee Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) It depends on who you're dating. Maybe you need to find men who think more similarly to you. For me, I am neither entitled nor whiny, neither do I expect dates to buy me purses, shoes, pay my bills or support me financially. But in the early stages of dating my cultural norm is that the man generally pays and I tend to date men who feel similarly. For me, if I offer to pay half on a first date for example, it's usually because I want to send the message that it's platonic and not romantic, so maybe some of the men you're dating read you doing that in the same way. It really depends. Some men like doing things for the woman they are with and being allowed to do that signals romantic interest while if they are rebuffed they may assume you're not interested or they just may not like that style of interaction. On the other hand, you have men who always want a woman to pay half, so it's about finding people to date who feel similarly to you, it seems the last group of men would be a better fit for you, and one way to find out who is who is to bring it up early and ask their thoughts on the subject so you know if they match yours or not. When I'm in a relationship who pays becomes more equal when we're exclusive and while neither of us keeps tabs on who paid what when, it is more likely that I'll take him out or buy certain things or pay for stuff and so will he while in the beginning, certainly the first dates I've been on have been on the guy. I think just as some women and men find it annoying and a turn off for someone to be a whiny entitled princess as you put it, some may also be put off by someone who seems like they find it hard to accept a gift or treat and must always prove they can pay. In my relationships the men I date never think I am using them, because I'm not. Them buying me dinner is not because I can't do it or because I'm entitled but often because that is one way they show they care. In most of my relationships as well I've been the one who cooks most often so even if the man I'm dating paid for more dates or dinners than I did, I paid for way more groceries and took way more time making meals and other things than they did so it even outs and relationships aren't just about dollars and cents but contributing in other ways as well. So: find out the man's opinion on the issue and if it matches yours I'd say as well as make sure how you're going about it isn't suggesting that it is platonic or that you're not gracious and never accept treats. Edited May 5, 2015 by MissBee
fitnessfan365 Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 (edited) I am a woman but I never noticed anything similar. Other than I agree that it's polite, especially in this day & age to offer to pay half especially on the 1st date, I think sitting back & letting men pay is not manipulating anybody. It's pretty easy to read the body language of a guy who resents anything other than Dutch treat in which case you whip out your wallet but some of it remains primal: men value things they have to work for and they want to prove to the right woman that they are good providers. By shoving your equality down the wrong guy's throat you are in some ways emasculating him. At that point, he's no fun to date. Let a man treat you. Let them be men. I'm not saying don't reciprocate. I am certainly not suggesting you use men for the stuff they will give you or the things they can buy you but let them be men. When we were younger many of my female friends & a lot more acquaintances wondered why men opened doors for me & pulled out chairs & did other sweet gestures. I wondered too & started observing my friend's behaviors. The 1st thing I noticed is this women would practically race to doors & yank them open. They'd pay checks when the guy got up to go to the bathroom after dinner. Then these women would complain that I got treated so well when they did not. I suggested they learn to hesitate. You have to give the guy a chance. If you are competing with him to beat him to the door or check, he's not going to be chivalrous. It's a date not a competition. Good post. Although it's sad how some men get "emasculated" over such silly things. If I was getting to know a woman that was determined to be a feminist, I'd have fun showing her who's boss in the bedroom. I think some women are more aggressive out of necessity. They keep selecting men who expect them to always plan and pay for everything and who act feminine around them. So they're used to relying on masculine energy. In my experience, it takes time for a woman with this mindset to adjust so I'm patient. It's funny because when a strong willed woman meets a guy that acts like one, you can almost see the conflicting emotions in her. On one hand, she wants to be stubborn, cling to her masculine energy, etc.. On the other, she can't help but be turned on and slowly but surely give into her feminine nature. One of my exes was like this. Always wore pants, was stubborn and strong willed, always wanted to pay for everything. I just had fun and took my time with it. A few months in she was wearing dresses all the time and loving to show off for me, etc.. She said she never met a guy that made her feel like a true woman before. That was one of the best compliments I ever got. Edited May 5, 2015 by fitnessfan365 1
preraph Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 I think there's a lot of different things at play there, and the problem is that some of them go back to cave men, literally. Here's a few ideas: Because women used to be pregnant and watching kids with no choice in the matter for a gazillion years, men were the main providers. Yes, women went and beat the bushes for berries and all that, but there were at least times women were dependent on men for sustenance. When men went on a hunt, nearly ever tribe of civilization celebrated up on their return. So it was a big deal to succeed at bringing home food. Things this engrained don't just go away because they can. Which brings me to my second point. As of last year, stats show women still only make just under 74 percent of what men do in the U.S. So please don't allow yourself to wallow in guilt if a man buys you something. That same man isn't paying his female employees equally to his male ones. Men as a group want sex far more urgently than women as a group, so over the millenia, this has caused a situation where men provide to boost their value in the eyes of women. Now, yes this does rankle a few of them in 2015, but there are still a shocking number of guys who feel more comfortable if the woman lets them hold the purse strings because usually this gives them more authority within the household. Many men still would love to have their woman dependent on them and unable to challenge them on everyday and even more important issues. A friend of mine's spouse doesn't want her to work for that very reason. She wants to work for her own stimulation and he's thrown ever roadblock he can to prevent it (refusing to help w/ kids, do anything else, etc.) When she's not working, he gets everything his way because she feels she has no say. So she went back to work against his wishes and after a rough period, he started treating her more equitably because he knows this means she can leave if she wants and she also has her own money, so he can't control her with allowance. These men are still out there. They grasp anything that can give them more power over their woman. It's sad. On the flip side, plenty of women are willing to ride that ride for as long as it doesn't impinge too much on their freedom or until the price becomes too high. The ones to whom that is abhorrent, and I am one and you are one, will not get along with a man with that mindset. So we have engrained instinctual behavior pulling us that way, we have women still being poorer than men, most with no quick remedy, we have men who don't want to give up the power, we have men willing to "pay" more for a better looking woman, we have out-and-out control freaks, and then we have the most benign reason of all why men pay for things during courtship: Their mother told them to. They taught them it is polite to treat the lady. And their dads told them to do it to show they're responsible and solvent. Because women want to know a man can hold his own and help provide, or they don't need one. Here's the acid test, but it takes more than one or two dates. See if your man's behavior is consistent with paying for the right reasons. Does he go mow his grannie's lawn on the weekend? Does he buy his mom flowers on Mother's Day? Or does he only shell out money when he hopes it will lead to sex? This is all you need to know. Meanwhile, don't worry, once you're married, there will be plenty of time for you to contribute in every way imaginable, including monetarily. Just make sure your man is on board for you having equal say in the union.
d0nnivain Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 When I'm in a relationship who pays becomes more equal when we're exclusive and while neither of us keeps tabs on who paid what when, Exactly. It evens out over time. When I 1st met DH I made more money then he did. I paid a lot because it was not fair for me to expect him to treat me to the kinds of fancy restaurants that I enjoyed when they weren't in his budget. At different points in our marriage, the primary breadwinner has changed but now it's "our money" so it's less of an issue. He still opens doors, pulls out chairs & last weekend helped me & one of my friends walk across the cobblestone streets of lower Manhatten when we were both wearing high heels and had been drinking. Other than the steadying hand, he does those things because he's a gentleman, not because I'm incapable. I probably could have managed to cross the street by myself too but he really enjoyed having two well dressed ladies on his arm. 3
fitnessfan365 Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 I probably could have managed to cross the street by myself too but he really enjoyed having two well dressed ladies on his arm. What guy wouldn't? There is something hot about having arm candy and a woman secretly liking it.
Author htx Posted May 5, 2015 Author Posted May 5, 2015 frustrating. I get letting "men be men" but WHY is it such a negative if I feel comfortable, say, paying around 30-40% of the time. I still feel like that's letting him treat me, but pulling my weight as well. I guess I can just "back off" and stop offering to pay/buying rounds, but I thought that's what we did these days. Ugh, it's weird realizing how naive you were for actually believing in equality. Serious question - why DO women think we should earn as much as men do if we don't pay as much as men do? Guess I need to reevaluate things...and only offer "every few times". Just so weird to me it actually turns off guys to have someone who wants to split expenses relatively equally. I'm not a prostitute.
Vercetti Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 Well if a women scoffs at me for holding a door open or offering my jacket if cold. Then she doesn't aperacate what I have to offer, I wish to be a man and with someone that's flattered by such. In the end who pays for what is moot, but if I couldn't even buy you toast on our first coffee date. Point is you might be emasculateing guys for declining basic curiosity. It can also put off classy men, cause it comes off like you think paying for some trivial meal / date is leverage for something else.
Vercetti Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 You're Overthinking things. Door is always open to invite the guy out later with offer to pay, or go Dutch on random things. Play by ear so to say. Just first date or few dates where you are being asked out...let the guy pay ( this was understood when he asked you out ). You should be more worried how he treats other people on the date, what kind of tipper he is, if he is natural and not putting on beyond his means. Getting into a struggle cause want to pay half after he asks you out is silly. Cough up extra for tip, or invite to countinue the date then start paying.
fitnessfan365 Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 frustrating. I get letting "men be men" but WHY is it such a negative if I feel comfortable, say, paying around 30-40% of the time. I still feel like that's letting him treat me, but pulling my weight as well. I guess I can just "back off" and stop offering to pay/buying rounds, but I thought that's what we did these days. Ugh, it's weird realizing how naive you were for actually believing in equality. Serious question - why DO women think we should earn as much as men do if we don't pay as much as men do? Guess I need to reevaluate things...and only offer "every few times". Just so weird to me it actually turns off guys to have someone who wants to split expenses relatively equally. I'm not a prostitute. Don't reevaluate anything. Keep being 100% yourself and you will find a guy that appreciates you for you. Instead of people trying to change who they are, they should just see it as being selective and eliminating those that aren't right for them. Take me for example. I've been called a misogynist, asked which century I am living in, etc because I like more traditional gender roles. Yet, do you think I am going to change who I am to subjugate to today's "gender equality" culture? Nope. There are still plenty of women that appreciate an older fashioned dynamic. In my opinion, the rise of feminism is what brought on the down turn of romantic relationships. What era had marriages lasting 40-60 years and which era now has 75% of marriages ending in divorce? Now I want to stress I am not looking for a Stepford wife. I like independence and slightly progressive attitude. A woman that likes to pay sometimes and be actively invested is awesome. But at the same time, if I wanted to be with a man, I wouldn't be attracted to women..LOL
d0nnivain Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 frustrating. I get letting "men be men" but WHY is it such a negative if I feel comfortable, say, paying around 30-40% of the time. . Then you are dating the wrong men. My advice focused on the 1st date . . . maybe the 2nd. After that I think most guys are happy to find a woman who isn't shy about paying. You have to be yourself first & foremost. The only time I ever had a guy make a real issue over how often I tried to pay was when I was in my 20s. He was in his 30s & we both knew he probably made 10x more than me. He'd let me pay if we went to the movies or something cheap but that was about it. It was also more about pure economics then gender inequality.
ascendotum Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 I always intend on paying but there have been a couple of occasions when we have gone 50:50. It when the woman insists even after my insistence I'll take care of it. I'm not looking to get into a ping pong game of 'no I insist'. I read and heard some women complain were they will drop a guy who gives in to their payment insistences. They were insincere or just doing a shyte test. Oh well whatever. As for your dilemma, for a woman who insists on going 50:50. I don't view them as any worse. I find it refreshing as do quite a number of guys on here (it a been a hot topic). As to whats going on with the guys. You don't say how many times the guys have ghosted on you when you done this...maybe its just 2 and not a definite trend. Maybe the guys have a preconceived notion on women who insist on going 50:50 as being feminists, or too independent, or as not being the compliant type. Maybe they view them to be the type to fall into bed within a week. Quite possibly they have found that the women who pay don't go out with them anymore, as some women will pay when they have no interest in the guy and want there to be zero obligation on them.
MissBee Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 frustrating. I get letting "men be men" but WHY is it such a negative if I feel comfortable, say, paying around 30-40% of the time. I still feel like that's letting him treat me, but pulling my weight as well. I guess I can just "back off" and stop offering to pay/buying rounds, but I thought that's what we did these days. Ugh, it's weird realizing how naive you were for actually believing in equality. Serious question - why DO women think we should earn as much as men do if we don't pay as much as men do? Guess I need to reevaluate things...and only offer "every few times". Just so weird to me it actually turns off guys to have someone who wants to split expenses relatively equally. I'm not a prostitute. What? Don't pay as much what? Look...what you're saying makes no sense. I think most of us have said when the relationship is exclusive paying evens out. Further, what one gets compensated for in salary is about one's JOB...not one's dating life and it sounds ridiculous to think that women should be paid less at work for doing the same job because they may or may not pay more on dates. This is nonsense. What you do at work and how much you get paid for it is UNRELATED COMPLETELY to what you choose to spend your earned money on. So that is neither here nor there. Like I said, the solution is find men who think like you. There are at least 50 threads with LS men who complain about wanting women to pay and go dutch all the time, so they must exist somewhere in the world, and I'm sure you can find a guy who will be happy for you to pay half all the time, just ask up front his thoughts.
ascendotum Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 I'm always prepared for paying but there have been a couple of occasions when we have gone 50:50. It when the woman insists even after my insistence I'll take care of it. I'm not looking to get into a ping pong game of 'no I insist' and I'm not really old fashioned when it comes to dating rituals. I read and heard some women complain were they will drop a guy who gives in to their payment insistences. They were insincere or just doing a shyte test. Oh well whatever. As for your dilemma, for a woman who insists on going 50:50. I don't view them as any worse. I find it refreshing as do quite a number of guys on here (it a been a hot topic). As to whats going on with the guys. You don't say how many times the guys have ghosted on you when you done this...maybe its just 2 and not a definite trend. Maybe the guys have a preconceived notion on women who insist on going 50:50 as being feminists, or too independent, or as not being the compliant type. Maybe they view them to be the type not to to fall into bed within a week. Quite possibly they have found that the women who pay don't go out with them anymore, as some women will pay when they have no interest in the guy and want there to be zero obligation on them.
PogoStick Posted May 5, 2015 Posted May 5, 2015 I'd be happy to have a woman pay half, or hell even pay my half for once! But if a pays does it mean she isn't interested?
Moreesleep Posted May 6, 2015 Posted May 6, 2015 Oh my 2nd date my date she wanted to pay and I insisted that I pay, she ended up treating me to a starbucks only because she was like I'm going to buy this for us and some ice cream. perhaps next date I might let her pay but she was not turned off or anything. Nor was I turned off I just thought because I decided to come out and meet her that I should of paid the bill.
Toodaloo Posted May 6, 2015 Posted May 6, 2015 I'm always prepared for paying but there have been a couple of occasions when we have gone 50:50. It when the woman insists even after my insistence I'll take care of it. I'm not looking to get into a ping pong game of 'no I insist' and I'm not really old fashioned when it comes to dating rituals. I read and heard some women complain were they will drop a guy who gives in to their payment insistences. They were insincere or just doing a shyte test. Oh well whatever. As for your dilemma, for a woman who insists on going 50:50. I don't view them as any worse. I find it refreshing as do quite a number of guys on here (it a been a hot topic). As to whats going on with the guys. You don't say how many times the guys have ghosted on you when you done this...maybe its just 2 and not a definite trend. Maybe the guys have a preconceived notion on women who insist on going 50:50 as being feminists, or too independent, or as not being the compliant type. Maybe they view them to be the type not to to fall into bed within a week. Quite possibly they have found that the women who pay don't go out with them anymore, as some women will pay when they have no interest in the guy and want there to be zero obligation on them. Perhaps this is where I am going wrong. I always pay half at least. On occasion I have footed the bill myself. It is very rare for me to allow someone to pay for me. I hate it. It makes me feel very uneasy and nervous. I don't feel "safe" when others pay for me. The minute I let you pay for me is when I begin to start trusting you. Either as a friend or a lover. It has nothing to do with my level of interest. And yes even when I am gagging for you, going up the walls in the hope you will call, I still don't want to have an obligation towards you. Mind you I am not really one who can be referred to as "compliant" so that could be a good thing. Nice to hear the other side of the story though.
Redhead14 Posted May 6, 2015 Posted May 6, 2015 I'd like to get your thoughts on this...it seems like every time I try to cover *roughly* half of expenses in dating/a relationship, guys tend to lose interest, or at least don't seem to find it attractive. My roommate and coworker will date several guys at once and willingly admit they have an entitled attitude - they think men (most they're not even dating!) should always offer to buy them drinks, expensive jewelry, purses, etc. And these dudes are just falling over themselves to do whatever they ask - it's like they get off on the entitled "princess" attitude. I was raised to always offer to pay and that relationships, even early on in the dating stages, should be relatively equal and you should take turns paying for each other. It's just frustrating, I could easily go out an manipulate men into paying for all my **** (I've turned down money/gifts in the past from men I wasn't interested in) but what really eats at me is even modern men (at least in my area apparently) don't seem to respect a woman who pulls her weight and gladly tries to make sure he isn't blowing all his cash on her. It's as if the little whiny entitled attitude is like catnip to some men the way aloof-ness and ******* attitudes turn on some women. Anyone else notice anything similar? All the men I've dated have insisted on paying for at least the first few dates. At some point, the woman should reciprocate or at least offer. Usually by the 4th date for me, I would give the waitress my card before the bill was delivered. I usually go to the ladies room and take her aside after she takes our order. After that, I will give the "reins" back to the man so to speak and he will pay for the next few. If he's appreciative of that first time, I will tell him that I'd like to share the expenses going forward. Sometimes they will accept that and sometimes they don't. Girls will allow a man to by them expensive things, etc. Strong secure, independent women won't do that. If a man is doing all that and the girl accepts it, he's allowing himself to be used. He's a sugar daddy. It sounds like these women are very young at least.
Moreesleep Posted May 6, 2015 Posted May 6, 2015 Girls will allow a man to by them expensive things, etc. Strong secure, independent women won't do that. If a man is doing all that and the girl accepts it, he's allowing himself to be used. He's a sugar daddy. It sounds like these women are very young at least. I just came from a person that did this (I wont call it a relationship) it was always I'm hungry.. buy me this buy me that.. took her out for V-day and she said instead of all this I would of had something Michael Kors.. I'm like WTF.. The girl I'm with now while I did tell her what happen in the past she told me right off the bat she did not want me buying her a bunch of stuff for her because it's a turn off and it's ok for a few things but not all the time.
BluEyeL Posted May 6, 2015 Posted May 6, 2015 I really don't think that it's the act of paying for yourself but the un confident vibe it most likely comes with it. The princesses act like they're hot Shyte and that's why it works for them.work on your attitude and self esteem and quit blaming others for your situation .
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