Perspective makes all the difference (Updated)

[HtotheN]

 

@HtotheN: EVERYONE can leave. Just sayin'. There are no physical barriers that are stopping a cheater from leaving. NONE. If you're saying what I think you're saying, it goes back to what I said in my OP about the cheater wanting their cake and eating it too. If a cheater is THAT miserable in their marriage or relationship, then they CAN LEAVE! Seriously. They really CAN. They just DON'T WANT to and CHOOSE *not* to.

 

 

Anyone who defends a cheater or justifies why a cheater "can't leave" an unsatisfying, miserable, sexless, etc. marriage makes me wonder if that person is someone who would also cheat on an innocent person - or, if they have already cheated in their relationship.

 

 

Thanks for YOUR perspective as well.

 

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You incorrectly assumed that I was talking about cheaters. I was talking about BSs not always able to leave right away, as you were able to. And you're welcome. I wish that you could tell the difference between perspective/opinion and what you do, which is state it as if that's how it is for everyone, in all cases. How did you manage to carry those tablets down from the mountain, you KWIM? Your pain is palpable. I understand that but crap on a cracker, calm down.

[GirlStillStrong]

In my opinion, a person who CHOOSES to CHEAT when they know full well that they have the OPTION of LEAVING the marriage *before* they act on their sexual urges definitely DOES have a CHARACTER FLAW.

 

A person who possesses INTEGRITY, HONESTY and DECENCY does NOT *choose* to engage in sexual relations with a person OTHER THAN their SPOUSE or SIGNIFICANT OTHER - no matter how "unsatisfying" or "miserable" or "sexless" their marriage or relationship is! They can **CHOOSE** to LEAVE the RELATIONSHIP/MARRIAGE and THEN have sex with as many people as their genitals can handle.

 

BUT...because cheaters want their cake AND eat it too (they want to remain in their comfy lifestyle, they want to remain with the spouse they're so "dissatisfied" with, they want to "see" their kids everyday, they want to continue having a "side piece" while being with their spouse at the same time, etc.), and also because they're huge COWARDS and are very SELFISH, they **CHOOSE** to REMAIN IN their marriage WHILE having SEX with OTHER PEOPLE because - it's what THEY want to do, without having ANY CONSIDERATION or RESPECT of their SPOUSE, their CHILDREN or of their marriage VOWS.

 

Do I think cheaters are "evil"? That's only for God to decide. Do I think cheaters are horrible people for all of the PAIN and SUFFERING that they cause to INNOCENT people? Yes. Cheating is such an absolute negative and disgusting character flaw that I would NEVER tolerate it from a spouse or significant other, nor would I EVER forgive it.

 

When it happened to me - and as soon as I found out about it - I ended it right then and there...and, I NEVER looked back, NEVER forgave him and will NEVER consider him as a decent person who would ever deserve anything good in life. For the past 8 years, Karma has been putting HIM through a lot of spiritual and emotional suffering as well as physical suffering. Now, he KNOWS what it truly FEELS LIKE to **SUFFER**. And even though I am civil towards him whenever I'm unfortunate enough to have to be in the same room with him, I now see it in his eyes whenever he looks at me - he KNOWS what he did to me (and to our children) was SO WRONG on EVERY LEVEL imaginable...and THAT is something he has been living with (and will continue to live with) for the REST OF HIS LIFE.

 

No matter what the innocent spouse/significant other has done (or has not done) in the marriage/relationship, that does NOT give the cheater ANY right OR excuse to have sex with other people. The cheater has the FREEDOM and the CHOICE to LEAVE the marriage/relationship at ANY TIME, if they're "not happy" with the quality of their marriage/relationship. BUT, a lot of them CHOOSE to CHEAT. They CHOOSE IT - no one has FORCED them to do it.

 

 

Yes. Perspective really DOES make all of the difference.

 

 

 

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I agree with the assessment that someone who lives a lie over time, and carries on an affair behind their spouse's back, has a character flaw, or an emotional issue, or some other kind of major malfunction. I personally am at a place in my life where I KNOW I would never do this to someone. I would leave the relationship first.

 

ZombieGirl, I am sorry this was done to you. I know firsthand the kind of destruction this can cause. I hope you WILL forgive someday, for your own benefit. Or at least consider, the vows one makes in marriage are made under God (historically speaking), and so he will have to answer to God for breaking them. I hope if you cannot forgive, you can try to hand it over. It seems you carry a great weight on your shoulders.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I don't know, AG. Obviously, not all who are unhappy cheat (and not all who cheat are acutally unhappy for that matter!) but that doesn't mean that those in bad marriages who do then choose to cheat are doing so ONLY because of who are they are as a person. In those cases, the situation contributed. How could it not?

 

For me, if I give a pass to myself/others for how they react to what I/they have done....and that pass includes me/others treating others disrespectfully....then I would have to agree with those that use violence against others for what the abuser perceives as a slight against them.

 

Being that I do not excuse abusive/poor coping behaviours in others/myself....I therefore do not give excuses for other forms of disrespect.

 

It is not okay to use issues/perceived issues in a relationship to then excuse our own disrespectful way of handling those issues. Whoever uses the disrespectful behaviour/s owns it.

 

And being that we all agree not all "bad" relationships have infidelity in them....then YES....it is because of who they are as a person is why they chose to cheat.

Edited May 3, 2015 by AlwaysGrowing

[HtotheN]

For me, if I give a pass to myself/others for how they react to what I/they have done....and that pass includes me/others treating others disrespectfully....then I would have to agree with those that use violence against others for what the abuser perceives as a slight against them.

 

Being that I do not excuse abusive/poor coping behaviours in others/myself....I therefore do not give excuses for other forms of disrespect.

 

It is not okay to use issues/perceived issues in a relationship to then excuse our own disrespectful way of handling those issues. Whoever uses the disrespectful behaviour/s owns it.

 

I'm not talking about giving a pass. I am talking about a person in a bad marriage who refuses to try to improve things, owning his/her part in that. Doesn't make the cheating right, but come on.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I'm not talking about giving a pass. I am talking about a person in a bad marriage who refuses to try to improve things, owning his/her part in that. Doesn't make the cheating right, but come on.

 

 

Would smacking your spouse around because they weren't meeting your needs be okay then? Or, emptying the bank account and clearing out all the possession be okay? Or would one be justified?

 

Where exactly is the line?

[HtotheN]

Would smacking your spouse around because they weren't meeting your needs be okay then? Or, emptying the bank account and clearing out all the possession be okay? Or would one be justified?

 

Where exactly is the line?

 

Okay look at it from this perspective then. A married couple has been having major problems. Not "perceived" or made up by the cheating spouse - it has been established and agreed upon that there are indeed major problems. Both are in the marriage and both have the responsibility to improve things. One completely refuses to even try. How is that acceptable? How could that possibly be okay? I understand that an affair (or any of your examples) is not justified, ever. But what about my point?

[goodyblue]

Okay look at it from this perspective then. A married couple has been having major problems. Not "perceived" or made up by the cheating spouse - it has been established and agreed upon that there are indeed major problems. Both are in the marriage and both have the responsibility to improve things. One completely refuses to even try. How is that acceptable? How could that possibly be okay? I understand that an affair (or any of your examples) is not justified, ever. But what about my point?

 

I am of the opinion that when my guy's ex started refusing sex (for 12 years) and became a perpetual drunk she broke the vows to live, honor, cherish etc, so even if he broke vows and cheated, she willfully ruined the relationship long before he did.

[HtotheN]

 

I hope people don't just tell themselves what they need to feel ok.

 

I think that alot of people do that, whether OM/OW, BS, or AP.

[velvette]

Okay look at it from this perspective then. A married couple has been having major problems. Not "perceived" or made up by the cheating spouse - it has been established and agreed upon that there are indeed major problems. Both are in the marriage and both have the responsibility to improve things. One completely refuses to even try. How is that acceptable? How could that possibly be okay? I understand that an affair (or any of your examples) is not justified, ever. But what about my point?

 

Its hard to address without knowing what the problem is and how it came about, but the healthy response to this situation is one of two things........go to counseling alone because sometimes one person can get the ball rolling to change a marriage or get a divorce and move on.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Okay look at it from this perspective then. A married couple has been having major problems. Not "perceived" or made up by the cheating spouse - it has been established and agreed upon that there are indeed major problems. Both are in the marriage and both have the responsibility to improve things. One completely refuses to even try. How is that acceptable? How could that possibly be okay? I understand that an affair (or any of your examples) is not justified, ever. But what about my point?

 

 

I am unsure of your point.

 

It is either okay to level one of the most disrespectful things you can do to another human being or it is not.

 

Not everyone chooses to cheat. A healthy individual....leaves the relationship respectfully first.

 

There are many stories shared here where one spouse stays 10,20, heck 30 years in a "bad" marriage. I would imagine that those same individuals will not grant the next relationship such a wide berth of time before they end it. And if they still feel that starting another relationship first is okay (or worked well for them), I would imagine ending another relationship the same way will be easy to invoke.

[HtotheN]

I am of the opinion that when my guy's ex started refusing sex (for 12 years) and became a perpetual drunk she broke the vows to live, honor, cherish etc, so even if he broke vows and cheated, she willfully ruined the relationship long before he did.

 

I agree. Some have the view that anything pre-affair is irrelevant but I most certainly do not.

[velvette]

I think that alot of people do that, whether OM/OW, BS, or AP.

 

Its hard to say. I think sometimes people interpret things incorrectly simply because of where they are in life. Maybe they are young, or inexperienced in relationships, or in the case of single OM/OW they haven't a clue of how marriage really works. Their interpretation may make them feel better, but I don't think that is always the motivation for their interpretation.

 

 

The cheating spouses interpretation is always suspect imo because they are mired in either their own unhappiness or dysfunction. I think they do spend a lot of time coming up with whatever interpretation makes them feel good AND also whatever interpretation requires the least emotional work for them. They don't get real until someone holds their feet to the fire usually.

 

 

The BS is usually being gaslighted so they can misinterpret simply because its almost impossible to keep up with the mental gymnastics of a cheater. When my H was fence sititng, but trying to get me to let him come home, I got to the point where I would only have a serious convo with him over the phone or online so I could either take notes or have it in writing. The only way I was trying to make myself feel better was to get to the truth.

[velvette]

I agree. Some have the view that anything pre-affair is irrelevant but I most certainly do not.

 

I don't think most people are saying its irrelevant to the state of the marriage. They are saying its not a valid reason to cheat when instead you should be filing for divorce if you believe you have exhausted all means of improving the marriage.

 

 

Those are the rules of marriage lol. Very few people believe otherwise unless they WANT to cheat or be an OW/OM. And, when those same people get into another marriage they go back to believing people shouldn't cheat.

 

 

You cant have it both ways.

[goodyblue]

I don't think most people are saying its irrelevant to the state of the marriage. They are saying its not a valid reason to cheat when instead you should be filing for divorce if you believe you have exhausted all means of improving the marriage.

 

 

Those are the rules of marriage lol. Very few people believe otherwise unless they WANT to cheat or be an OW/OM. And, when those same people get into another marriage they go back to believing people shouldn't cheat.

 

 

You cant have it both ways.

 

I never thought it was ok to cheat but don't tell me the state of the marriage is irrelevant.

[HtotheN]

I never thought it was ok to cheat but don't tell me the state of the marriage is irrelevant.

 

I give up. We need a head hitting the brick wall icon.

[velvette]

I never thought it was ok to cheat but don't tell me the state of the marriage is irrelevant.

 

 

What is it relevant to other than what should be done about the marriage?

 

 

The only relevance it has to cheating is as an excuse to do something you say you don't think is ok to do. That doesn't even make sense.

 

 

Are you saying that if something goes sideways in your marriage and you cant figure out how to fix it for some length of time, then you will understand and be ok if your husband cheats?

[GirlStillStrong]

Every marriage is going to have problems and difficulties. And not every one has the tools to deal with them. When you marry you make a commitment to stay within the partnership and face those difficulties together. Add to that the dynamics of personal life, and personal growth. A person who cannot self-reflect, truly admit their part, and successfully adjust or change to accommodate what needs to be an emotionally mature partnership are probably the ones who seek out a new relationship. It would be better for them to leave the first relationship before starting a new one, but not everyone has the ability to do so, for whatever reason (emotional, legal, financial, religious, etc). The affair only serves as an escape from reality, and compounds the problem. If and when the personal benefits of leaving appear to outweigh the personal benefits of staying, then they will leave. It is difficult enough to coordinate and gain cooperation for two people to achieve something as simple as successfully going on vacation together and getting their needs and expectations met, let alone coordinating a successful marriage. There are a multitude of issues and problems that arise that people, in my opinion, are ill-equipped to handle. Selfishness and apathy run rampant in the human race.

 

Not sure if this adds to the discussion but thanks for letting me share.

[minimariah]

I never thought it was ok to cheat but don't tell me the state of the marriage is irrelevant.

 

but she didn't tell you that - no one did. literally no one is saying that the state of the marriage is irrelevant. BUT it cannot be the excuse for cheating. you cannot use the state of the marriage as the reason you've cheated because cheating is not the only response to the bad marriage. like, why did you cheat and left the marriage only when you had a #2 option safe and secured? reasons are usually kids, finances... that's the reason you've decided to cheat instead of divorcing, not the state of your marriage. the state of your marriage is a reason that you've stopped loving your spouse, distanced yourself, blah, blah... but the fact that you've decided to cheat instead of leaving? your bad marriage ain't to blame - your finances and kids are.

 

both spouses are usually to blame for the bad marriage and for the problems that eventually led to the infidelity but the act of the infidelity is exclusively cheater's choice and fault. saying that the state of the marriage cannot be excuse or that it doesn't make it okay is cheat DOES NOT mean that the state of the marriage is irrelevant. to me, cheating is most definitely a symptom of a bad marriage. a sign that shows you that something is missing.

 

it's hard to talk about the state of the marriage because BS's and WS's perspectives are usually very different. no one changes over night, you know? no one becomes a monster over night, the signs were there from the beginning. and if THAT's true... then what the f*ck were you thinking when you married that person and decided to have children with them in the 1st place? many BS's "becoming monsters" are in fact, caused by the WS's behavior towards them. trashing your Xes and your xMarriage - you're trashing yourself, because YOU chose them.

 

your choices make you who you are, they show your true character. the fact that you have a bunch of folks who are in an unhappy marriage - some of them cheat and some of them divorce - shows you very clearly that cheating IS, in fact, a matter of character AND circumstances (a lot of people can't divorce for this or that reason). but it most definitely cannot be removed from character.

[minimariah]

I give up. We need a head hitting the brick wall icon.

 

you just need to read more carefully.

 

saying that the state of a M cannot be your convenient excuse for cheating =\= saying it's completely irrelevant when talking about infidelity.

 

2 different things.

 

you can acknowledge the state of your M before the A, you can acknowledge the bad marriage that lead to you losing respect for your spouse and acting on an attraction for someone else WITHOUT using it as an excuse for your actions.

 

not to mention that many BS have no idea how "bad" their marriage is because RARELY do the WS bother to express their misery straight up. it happens, of course. but just like i don't believe in a "good person" who turned into a cheating monster over night and everything was "oh so peachy and the marriage was awesome and there were no signs" - just like that, i don't believe in the "BS turned into a monster and poor me had to cheat" scenario. nothing is ever that black and white, both for the BS and cheater.

Edited May 3, 2015 by minimariah

[minimariah]

OP - many folks will tell you that cheating is EXCLUSIVELY a matter of character and nothing else = it's not true. it is a matter of character, it's undeniable. BUT it is also a matter of what kind of life circumstances you're in, it's a matter of how many other lives you have depending on you... it's a matter of a lot of things, not just one (character).

 

when folks say cheating is a character flaw, they don't usually mean that it's completely removed from the relationship with the spouse. i think that's where you're confused - people saying it's a character flaw usually don't mean that cheaters cheat because "their DNA ain't right". you know? it is, WITH OTHER THINGS, a character flaw. it is a matter of problems and personal unhappiness, even with recreational cheaters.

 

you can look at the ACT of cheating as a character flaw. i will tell you - i personally like to look at cheating as something that's removed from the M or a R becase in my personal opinion... when you get to the stage that you want to cheat? your M or R is already deep buried, forgotten, we prayed for it and not even Jesus himself could ressurect it. so it's a matter of leaving now - WHY do you choose to stay and cheat? so i focus on whatever is making the cheater stick around. i don't focus on the M usually because it's usually dead by then.

[cocorico]

How exactly do you (general you) know nothing is done to improve anything? Because the cheater tells you?

 

Nope. Because of all the other evidence. The letters and emails saying exactly that - "I don't see the need for MC because I am not the problem, you are the problem because you are unhappy. I am not unhappy. If you are unhappy then it is your problem to fix, not mine.", etc. The observations of family and friends over the years, of how she treated him in public, what was said in their presence, etc. The referral reports from the GP to be taken along to the MC (which didn't happen). The emails from the MC who saw them for a single session before the xW stormed out and refused to return. The emails during the divorce. The letters. The journals she kept and left lying on the floor when she moved out. The things the kids reported.

 

The "cheater" doesn't have to say a thing. The evidence is pretty clear.

[cocorico]

I don't think most people are saying its irrelevant to the state of the marriage. They are saying its not a valid reason to cheat when instead you should be filing for divorce if you believe you have exhausted all means of improving the marriage.

 

Those are the rules of marriage lol. Very few people believe otherwise unless they WANT to cheat or be an OW/OM. And, when those same people get into another marriage they go back to believing people shouldn't cheat.

 

 

You cant have it both ways.

 

Actually, my own view (as fOW) would be to leave. But that's me. If a R isn't working for me, I leave. But I recognise that not everyone's views, or circumstances, allow that.

 

My H was brought up to honour duty and commitment above all else. So to him, leaving (for his own happiness) was "selfish", especially since his kids were still traumatised as a result of a previous split.... where, again, refusing to take her back (for his own happiness) would have been "selfish" since she had completely fallen apart, and traumatised the kids as a result. So he gritted his teeth and stayed - at least at that point, when the kids were fragile and needed it.

 

It's not what I would have done, but I recognise that he is not me, and that he had his reasons which were valid to me. I'd just have dumped her - or refused to take her back - and made sure the kids got the necessary support, and not worried about whether she did go on to kill herself or not. But he made his decision based on his values, so he took her back, and he stayed. And, when she broke every last promise she'd made when begging him to take her back, and things just got worse and worse, he felt trapped - and became vulnerable to an A. Sure, brilliant "I told you so" moment for my way of doing things over his - but if he had refused to take her back and she had killed herself, or if he had left her when she reneged on her promises and the kids fell apart, the shoe may have been on the other foot with his way of thinking trumping mine. It's impossible to know. He did what he thought best at the time, with the information he had available. I wasn't there, I'm only reconstructing post hoc.

[cocorico]

While reading a thread in the infidelity section (the one about character flaws), it occurred to me that oftentimes (not always) but oftentimes, the opinion of why an affair started can usually be predicted based on whether the person giving the opinion is an AP or a BS. It seems that most BSs think that people who cheat do so because of some character flaw while most APs attribute the decision to the OM/OW's marriage being bad. Kind of like how most BSs think that their WS is in the affair just because of the sex, while the APs would say that it is not just about the sex. I am thinking that in both cases, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I think that everyone tells himself/herself what he/she needs in order to feel okay about the situation. Thoughts?

 

I'm sure there is a good deal of truth to this, if only a priori. An OW would not (normally) involve herself with a MM she judged to be "of flawed character", so if she's involved with him, she must consider his character generally sound.

Likewise, a BS would not (normally) choose to believe that a sane, rational, good person made a reasoned decision to treat them with disrespect and disdain, since this implies that other sane, rational, good people might equally consider them (the BS) of deserving such disrespect and disdain, and so they need to argue that the WS was not sane, not rational, or not good (or a combination of those) so as to explain such an "unjustified" decision to treat the BS so callously.

[goodyblue]

Nope. Because of all the other evidence. The letters and emails saying exactly that - "I don't see the need for MC because I am not the problem, you are the problem because you are unhappy. I am not unhappy. If you are unhappy then it is your problem to fix, not mine.", etc. The observations of family and friends over the years, of how she treated him in public, what was said in their presence, etc. The referral reports from the GP to be taken along to the MC (which didn't happen). The emails from the MC who saw them for a single session before the xW stormed out and refused to return. The emails during the divorce. The letters. The journals she kept and left lying on the floor when she moved out. The things the kids reported.

 

The "cheater" doesn't have to say a thing. The evidence is pretty clear.

 

This was my guy's ex stance as well. She was happy to drink all night, spend his money and shut him out emotionally. She refused both IC and MC. Refused AA. But oh, once he left... she wanted to meet with their priest to guilt him into coming home.

 

He stayed to raise their daughter. He also had a sense of duty, trying to do the right thing, and religion played a big part as well.

 

Part of it also was that he was so used to being treated horribly that he just took it until he realized it didn't have to be that way.

 

So yeah, he made the choice to have an affair, then leave. But let us not forget that he was set up for it. Ripe for it. His choice? Yep. Extenuating circumstances? Absolutely.

[minimariah]

I'm sure there is a good deal of truth to this, if only a priori. An OW would not (normally) involve herself with a MM she judged to be "of flawed character", so if she's involved with him, she must consider his character generally sound.

Likewise, a BS would not (normally) choose to believe that a sane, rational, good person made a reasoned decision to treat them with disrespect and disdain, since this implies that other sane, rational, good people might equally consider them (the BS) of deserving such disrespect and disdain, and so they need to argue that the WS was not sane, not rational, or not good (or a combination of those) so as to explain such an "unjustified" decision to treat the BS so callously.

 

this is true. with one exception - BSs don't choose to believe that the WSs wasn't sane so they can explain the unjustice. they're doing it so they can convince themselves that the WS still loves them & that there is still hope for reconciliation. if the admit that the A was more than a lapse in judgement and that it had some strong and real feelings... reconciliation is almost close to impossible.

 

everything is a defense mechanism, pretty much.