How to be loyal when you think she is in the wrong

[bachdude]

I have a question regarding how to be loyal to your significant other (especially spouse) when you genuinely think they are in the wrong.

 

Obviously, we need to be loyal above all others to our significant other, but what happens when your significant other behaves in such a way that you feel and think they are clearly in the wrong.

 

In my experience, it didn't bode well if I expressed that I thought my ex wife was in the wrong (it never went well!). I was always accused of not being loyal to her and taking other people's sides, even though I only expressed this privately to her.

 

The problem is especially acute if the conflict is between your wife and your mother.

 

So what is someone to do? If one is committed to openness/honesty in a relationship and loyalty, what do you do? How can you be both honest and loyal?

[autumnnight]

OK, my answer may be against the grain, but I think loving honesty is always best.

 

I know (especially for men) the minefield that can be the "wife vs mother" issues is tricky. BUT, if a husband has a history of loving his wife and making her his life priority, he should be able to lovingly but honestly point out when his wife is in the wrong. I wouldn't recommend doing it anywhere but in private, and I'd be as heavy on the empathy as possible, but the truth is still the truth.

 

If I had gone on an uncalled for rant to my former MIL and my ex had taken my side, that would not have been helpful to me. It would have been letting crap behavior slide. Letting crap behavior slide isn't loyalty, IMO.

[xxoo]

I avoid right/wrong altogether. Try using more neutral phrasing like, "I feel ....."

 

Creative problem solving that focuses on solutions rather than evaluating desires can help.

[whirl3daway]

Personally, I think your loyalty should lie with the person you've decided to marry/be in a relationship with. That doesn't mean being agreeing to everything ("yes honey, you were totally right to spit on that person in the grocery store for taking the last avocado") but it does mean showing the person you love more understanding that you would give others.

 

I think this can be expressed with the way you phrase things: "Yes honey, I understand that you were very upset that the person took the last avocado. I thought it was very frustrating myself! I don't agree with how you handled that situation though."

 

I think most of the time, people are just looking for empathy/sympathy and understanding of their problem. Especially in a situation where it's DIL vs MIL, I would want my husband to be on my side unless I'm doing something horribly wrong. But if it's like, my MIL criticizing the fact that I'm breastfeeding instead of feeding formula, I'd need my husband to be on my side.

[bachdude]

OK, my answer may be against the grain, but I think loving honesty is always best.

 

I know (especially for men) the minefield that can be the "wife vs mother" issues is tricky. BUT, if a husband has a history of loving his wife and making her his life priority, he should be able to lovingly but honestly point out when his wife is in the wrong. I wouldn't recommend doing it anywhere but in private, and I'd be as heavy on the empathy as possible, but the truth is still the truth.

 

If I had gone on an uncalled for rant to my former MIL and my ex had taken my side, that would not have been helpful to me. It would have been letting crap behavior slide. Letting crap behavior slide isn't loyalty, IMO.

 

Those are great suggestions autmnnight. Thank you!

 

And I think it is an excellent point that "letting crap behavior slide isn't loyalty".

[bachdude]

Personally, I think your loyalty should lie with the person you've decided to marry/be in a relationship with. That doesn't mean being agreeing to everything ("yes honey, you were totally right to spit on that person in the grocery store for taking the last avocado") but it does mean showing the person you love more understanding that you would give others.

 

I think this can be expressed with the way you phrase things: "Yes honey, I understand that you were very upset that the person took the last avocado. I thought it was very frustrating myself! I don't agree with how you handled that situation though."

 

I think most of the time, people are just looking for empathy/sympathy and understanding of their problem. Especially in a situation where it's DIL vs MIL, I would want my husband to be on my side unless I'm doing something horribly wrong. But if it's like, my MIL criticizing the fact that I'm breastfeeding instead of feeding formula, I'd need my husband to be on my side.

 

This is also very helpful! Thanks!

 

I have a quick question. You write,

 

Especially in a situation where it's DIL vs MIL, I would want my husband to be on my side unless I'm doing something horribly wrong.

 

What if your husband pretended to be on your side for the sake of peace in the relationship but actually in his mind agreed with his Mom. How do you feel about that?

[whirl3daway]

This is also very helpful! Thanks!

 

I have a quick question. You write,

 

 

 

What if your husband pretended to be on your side for the sake of peace in the relationship but actually in his mind agreed with his Mom. How do you feel about that?

 

I'm of the opinion that "thoughts" are not troublesome. I think about how sexy men are on the street, and I don't want that held against me, but I also know better than to share that with my man, or my mom. Get my drift?

[xxoo]

What if your husband pretended to be on your side for the sake of peace in the relationship but actually in his mind agreed with his Mom. How do you feel about that?

 

Can you give an example of a mom vs. wife scenario?

 

It seems that mom should not be a factor the great majority of the time. You and your wife make decisions; mom doesn't get a vote.

[casey.lives]

help her to understand that loyalty is not simply being on each others team but also having each others backs. Sometimes we are our own enemy and we need protection from our self.

[bachdude]

I'm of the opinion that "thoughts" are not troublesome. I think about how sexy men are on the street, and I don't want that held against me, but I also know better than to share that with my man, or my mom. Get my drift?

 

Yes, understood!

[bachdude]

Can you give an example of a mom vs. wife scenario?

 

It seems that mom should not be a factor the great majority of the time. You and your wife make decisions; mom doesn't get a vote.

 

I have in mind situations were the Mom and wife just don't get along. Or situations where my ex wife, in my opinion, didn't handle things well and the situation was made much worse due to her rather explosive temper. I had problems with the way she handled things more than anything else.

[todreaminblue]

loyalty isnt about agreement all the time....its agreeing to disagree..in fact loyalty is tested in times of trouble not peace......what you did about voicing your opinion in private showed loyalty...probably why you are torn and i dont know the situation in its entirety .....is it because theres right and wrong on both sides you are torn......fighting takes two.......and you are in the awkward position of being caught in the middle of two people you love....two women no less....;0)......with both you have a loyalty too....

 

in this position if ti were me i would claim switzerland.....and say you need to work this out between you both....tell them you love and support both of them but you do not want to eb in this position of referee.....support your wife in plans of reaching a mutual resolution between your mother and your wife.... not fuel argument with who is right or wrong......serves no purpose to carry on a disagreement...common ground needs to be sought...so seek that common ground...find something they agree on build from there.......before the big guns come out..if she loves you ...your wife will compromise and not want you to be in an awkward position...same with your mother......loyalty luckily is meant to go both ways....loyalty....is something that is shared with all people who truly care for each other.......this is my suggestion.......i wish you well whatever you decide on........deb.......

[Ninjainpajamas]

Most women don't care about right or wrong, they simply want you to be on their side and agree with them, they want your empathy and sympathy regardless of the situation.

 

When two women are involved like this, you've just got to hear them out...don't institute your opinion because most of the time women don't want it anyway and you really aren't that important as you think you are in the whole process. You just need to shut up and say as little as possible and appease their need to feel supported by you without so much choosing sides, it's a slippery slope.

 

But this is a rift between two women, for them it's just simply about which side you are on, it has nothing to do with reason, there's none involved here. It's not like two guys who can work it out and reach a compromise, if these two women don't like it each other, they don't like each other forever for the most part. So you better pick a woman that your mom gets along with if you want peace in your life.

 

You're like the right hand of the king, and your wife is the king...she expects you to be an obedient servant and must always be loyal to the crown, loyalty, dedication and commitment are extremely important to women, they are blinded by that desire beyond any justification...but you must also be responsible and whatever else she desires of you in order for her to respect you because you are the right hand of the king, do you get it? you have to agree with her, but then been independent and functional with other things...this is how women think, they don't so much as think as they feel...therefore if you even slightly suggest that you are in favor of someone other than the king, then it's off with your head, you have automatically betrayed the empire which she created in her mind...it is an act of treason.

 

This is why in the first place, you don't get into that kind of union called marriage...because with those kinds of obligations, the woman is expecting far more than you realize in return, her expectations go up a huge notch, and you lose your ability to think independently. You sacrificed that when you said I do.

 

Therefore the reality is you don't have an opinion, your only option is to comply because she's going to get her way one way or the other, and you are just there to be inducted into her circle of what she wants in her life, by being with her you are essentially saying that you agree to agree with everything or agree to disagree but you disagree in silence, you don't convey or express that to her...and yes, she will expect you to be happy with that.

 

Your mother requires more loyalty in the end than your wife. You can have two or three wives, but you only get one mother...and chances are your wife wouldn't do all the things your mother did to bring you up into good health, women just expect you to come with them with offerings and as you are, not someone to be worked on or improved although they deal with that in order to make you perfect or what they want.

 

So field your loyalty towards your mother secretly, especially when your wife is wrong. But if you are married, for women that means you have sworn loyalty to them and you don't have a right to choose, it's that simple...there is no arguing, debating, conversation worth having, don't make your life more difficulty this is how it works and if you try do otherwise you're going to get slammed down by the book of expectations, and it's a really big encoded book that only women understand and can make sense of it at any given time...not men, they are too rational and practical thinking.

 

If you want a good marriage, then you've got to treat your wife as a priority, even if it means you go against your mother who is in the right. If you want to be a tough guy, and rebel against injustice...your marriage is going to be bad, you'll be happy and it'll create a larger divide between you and your spouse.

 

So the choice is yours, "loyalty" or "justice"...you can't have them both.

 

You need to choose your words carefully and play semantics, just play it neutral and let her emotions blow over, if you play it too neutral however she will bust your balls for that because women will force you to take a side, so you need to go against what you feel is right or fair in order to please her, essentially you need to learn how play the game like a "good husband"...and that's usually saying very little, and if you do say it make sure she's going to agree with it and it's something she wants to hear so she feels supported. The less waves you cause, the less drama for you.

[Gloria25]

I don't believe in blind loyalty...

 

I mean, while I may not display my public disagreement and/or lack of loyalty to a SO, I will be sure to handle it behind closed doors.

 

But, I don't think I'd have such an issue because before I'd get with a dude seriously to the point that we're a united front, I'd make sure I vet him so that I wouldn't have to "choose sides" on things that come up in life...

 

In other words, if your ex was having issues with your mum and/or didn't have conflict resolution skills, hopefully that would have been something you addressed before making her your wife...but, since she's the "ex" I guess that she's now an "ex" for this and other reasons?

[xxoo]

I have in mind situations were the Mom and wife just don't get along. Or situations where my ex wife, in my opinion, didn't handle things well and the situation was made much worse due to her rather explosive temper. I had problems with the way she handled things more than anything else.

 

Explosive temper sounds really bad. If this was out of character, I'd be concerned. If it was in character, why did you marry her?

 

Your responsibility is this: each spouse sets the tone with his/her own family for how much they can interfere in the relationship between married partners. Did you establish boundaries with your mother appropriately? Or did you allow your mother to overstep? Without examples, I still don't understand how the mother is this involved.

[serial muse]

Explosive temper sounds really bad. If this was out of character, I'd be concerned. If it was in character, why did you marry her?

 

Your responsibility is this: each spouse sets the tone with his/her own family for how much they can interfere in the relationship between married partners. Did you establish boundaries with your mother appropriately? Or did you allow your mother to overstep? Without examples, I still don't understand how the mother is this involved.

 

Yes, agree - one can take a basic philosophical stance (e.g. loyalty to partner > loyalty to parent) but honestly I think there should be some room for negotiation there. It's not black and white. That said, I agree with the earlier poster who said that people tend to want empathy for their position (both men and women want this) -- and when they feel understood, they are far more likely to be flexible. So taking a hard line either way is problematic and not necessarily good for either relationship.

 

Does your wife have an issue with your mother in general? Is there a reasonable basis for conflict, but you think she's handling it badly? Because if so, then thinking you have to pick a side isn't going to be helpful to anybody. Understand your wife's position and then perhaps together you can work out a strategy for her to get along with your mother.

 

All of the above, of course, is contingent on the idea that your wife is not being a complete a55hole for no reason, or has a longstanding temper problem and won't stop acting out (in which case you've got a bigger problem on your hands). But as xxoo says, without a specific scenario, it's hard to say.

 

Of course, this

 

Most women don't care about right or wrong, they simply want you to be on their side and agree with them, they want your empathy and sympathy regardless of the situation.

 

is utter nonsense. Wanting empathy is not mutually exclusive with caring about right or wrong. That is the epitome of a false dichotomy and it's completely irrational. Men and women both want empathy, IMO, and often are deaf to reason while they feel misunderstood. This is human nature, and it behooves us all to be more understanding of one another.

[autumnnight]

Of course, this

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjainpajamas

Most women don't care about right or wrong, they simply want you to be on their side and agree with them, they want your empathy and sympathy regardless of the situation.

 

is utter nonsense. Wanting empathy is not mutually exclusive with caring about right or wrong. That is the epitome of a false dichotomy and it's completely irrational. Men and women both want empathy, IMO, and often are deaf to reason while they feel misunderstood. This is human nature, and it behooves us all to be more understanding of one another.

 

True, but consider the source.

 

I don't think one CAN make a blanket statement such as "I will always take X side." Because honestly, sometimes it may be the wife's problem, and sometimes it may be the mother's. My ex had some terrible thing to say about my father. I didn't dress him down in front of my parents, but I sure did let him know how I felt about it in private.

[Ninjainpajamas]

is utter nonsense. Wanting empathy is not mutually exclusive with caring about right or wrong. That is the epitome of a false dichotomy and it's completely irrational. Men and women both want empathy, IMO, and often are deaf to reason while they feel misunderstood. This is human nature, and it behooves us all to be more understanding of one another.

 

Utter nonsense, as in true? completely irrational as in, it makes too much sense?

 

I guarantee you, without knowing anything about this guy, his wife nor about the situation...is that it makes not a damn lick of difference to his wife whether she is "right or wrong"...the thought has probably never even entered her mind seriously. Sure she may know she's wrong, but I bet if this guy tries to tell her one thing about it he'll be subjected to abuse for not agree with her.

 

It is not his place to tell her whether she's right or wrong, and she sure as hell doesn't want to hear it from him....all she will want is her support.

 

Don't twist this situation around and equalize it by making a blanket statement of "men and women want empathy"...the difference is women often expect empathy and men are just lucky if they get it, as men we're not supposed to be the emotional wrecks, although some are. We're the tough guys, always confident, never wavering, the guy who can handle life with ease and be the man...didn't you get the memo of what women want?

 

True, but consider the source.

 

I don't think one CAN make a blanket statement such as "I will always take X side." Because honestly, sometimes it may be the wife's problem, and sometimes it may be the mother's. My ex had some terrible thing to say about my father. I didn't dress him down in front of my parents, but I sure did let him know how I felt about it in private.

 

One can, and one will make a generalized statement about what is generally true.

 

It doesn't matter who's actually in the right, that's the point with women...if one woman feels this way and the other feels that way, they are both justified within their own minds. Even when women go to support, whether it be from men or women, they're supposed to be supportive and on her side, that's what is expected of them...you can't just tell the woman she's crazy and completely in the wrong, even if she is...that's not what you're supposed to do.

 

So he's stuck in the middle, he has to tell his mother is right...which in this case according to him she is and he feels justified in that as I'm sure he's not trying to choose sides here. And his wife being wrong, still expects the same kind of support and justification that she is right if she comes to him...this would work fine if they were both separate from each others lives, but since he's there stuck in a bad place, he's got to try and handle this with finesse without getting caught up in the middle and becoming a target.

 

But this is something that possibly women don't understand, because your friends agree with you even when your wrong, and your SO tries to be supportive even if he can see that. Some women are more reasonable than others, but in this case it sounds like his wife is the type that already makes up her mind, holds a grudge and likely wants an unwavering support because that would satisfy her emotionally.

 

Now a woman sharing her opinion and scolding a man for something he did wrong...well that's perfect acceptable by society, after all he deserves it because he's a man. That's a totally different situation, as men we don't have the same luxury, unless we want to be sleeping on the couch or taking cold showers of course...very hard to figure out which way a man decides to go on that...therefore women often have an illusion about the opinion of men because they are conditioned to behave and respond a certain way, not honestly and transparently, women are too emotional and have too many expectations for men to act freely, therefore men are subjected to certain treatment until they conform...that's how they learn what to do with women, they eventually find the path of least resistance..it doesn't mean it's because they agree with you or that you're right.

[serial muse]

Utter nonsense, as in true? completely irrational as in, it makes too much sense?

 

I guarantee you, without knowing anything about this guy, his wife nor about the situation...is that it makes not a damn lick of difference to his wife whether she is "right or wrong"...the thought has probably never even entered her mind seriously. Sure she may know she's wrong, but I bet if this guy tries to tell her one thing about it he'll be subjected to abuse for not agree with her.

 

It is not his place to tell her whether she's right or wrong, and she sure as hell doesn't want to hear it from him....all she will want is her support.

 

Don't twist this situation around and equalize it by making a blanket statement of "men and women want empathy"...the difference is women often expect empathy and men are just lucky if they get it, as men we're not supposed to be the emotional wrecks, although some are. We're the tough guys, always confident, never wavering, the guy who can handle life with ease and be the man...didn't you get the memo of what women want?

 

 

Utter nonsense, as in utter nonsense. And irrational, as in, what you said is a false dichotomy and you're trying to make it rational by throwing a lot of words at it and thereby obscuring the pure crystalline truth (irony?). But it isn't working. You're the one making a lot of blanket statements here - as in "women don't care about right and wrong". That's got to be the silliest thing I've heard all day, and I was up early this morning.

 

People like to be understood and empathized with. They can also care about right and wrong. The rest is noise and opinion, not fact. No matter how many more words you devote to it, it's still not fact. You sound angry about your past relationships, but anger is not only not a convincing argument, it's exactly counter to the story you're trying to tell here - it's rooted in your personal and emotional experience, rather than an experience of all the women and men of the world, ever. It's not a good basis for a rational argument that tries to "tell it like it is".

 

I do not think these pronouncements are helpful to the OP, who needs to figure out how to navigate his domestic life, not soapbox about men and women on a message board. OP, hopefully you can provide some more insight into particular situation, so we can get away from the strange and useless soapboxing and talk about more important and relevant things.

Edited April 29, 2015 by serial muse

[eye of the storm]

 

Now a woman sharing her opinion and scolding a man for something he did wrong...well that's perfect acceptable by society, after all he deserves it because he's a man. That's a totally different situation, as men we don't have the same luxury, unless we want to be sleeping on the couch or taking cold showers of course...very hard to figure out which way a man decides to go on that...therefore women often have an illusion about the opinion of men because they are conditioned to behave and respond a certain way, not honestly and transparently, women are too emotional and have too many expectations for men to act freely, therefore men are subjected to certain treatment until they conform...that's how they learn what to do with women, they eventually find the path of least resistance..it doesn't mean it's because they agree with you or that you're right.

 

A marriage should be two equal partners coming together as a team because they love and respect each other. Not one person afraid of the other. The above quote is about a toxic bond, not a marriage. In a good healthy marriage you are able to kindly and honestly express yourself in a safe environment.

[xxoo]

As a woman, a mother, and a human, I care very much about right and wrong, and fully use the good judgment that my life has given me to make decisions and raise our children.

 

As a partner in a marriage, I avoid judgments of right and wrong when engaging in conflict resolution with my spouse because I want to find a mutually agreeable solution. I often feel I'm right, but I bite my tongue until it bleeds and ask him how he feels, and why, so that I can understand what he thinks is right. In the end, we both come to understanding and a solution that is often better than what either of us each believed to be the "right" answer.

[bachdude]

Explosive temper sounds really bad. If this was out of character, I'd be concerned. If it was in character, why did you marry her?

 

Your responsibility is this: each spouse sets the tone with his/her own family for how much they can interfere in the relationship between married partners. Did you establish boundaries with your mother appropriately? Or did you allow your mother to overstep? Without examples, I still don't understand how the mother is this involved.

 

Well, we could get into why we married but I think it goes into an area that is a bit off topic. I'm more interested in how to deal with these issues or loyalty and honesty in a relationship.

 

My Mom is very much to herself actually. But in the final analysis, they just didn't like each other, that simple.

 

It's actually a little difficult to remember specifics at this point because this was quite a while ago! Ok, here is one, my wife said some derogatory comments about some other members of my family that offended my Mom. It caused friction and I was caught in the middle. In my mind, I thought it was common sense to not put down family to your MIL!! Other times my Mom did step over a line and I did say something.

[bachdude]

Does your wife have an issue with your mother in general? Is there a reasonable basis for conflict, but you think she's handling it badly? Because if so, then thinking you have to pick a side isn't going to be helpful to anybody. Understand your wife's position and then perhaps together you can work out a strategy for her to get along with your mother.

 

All of the above, of course, is contingent on the idea that your wife is not being a complete a55hole for no reason, or has a longstanding temper problem and won't stop acting out (in which case you've got a bigger problem on your hands). But as xxoo says, without a specific scenario, it's hard to say.

 

This actually was about my ex wife. I guess it is hard to not bring up specifics. I mentioned one prior to this post.

 

My main question, and I am getting some great ideas from all angles, is how to be loyal if you actually agree with the other person, not your wife. Do you pretend to take your wife's side for the sake of peace (one position expounded here), or give lots of empathy but in private state your opinion lovingly (another position from posters here).

 

It's just hard for me to fake things like this. I feel like I am not being loyal to myself if I pretend. And is loyalty mean deceiving your partner that you are on their side? Faking = loyalty? It seems to me that being very empathetic while still stating my opinion privately is the way to go, and a way for me to be truthful and loyal to myself as well.

[bachdude]

As a woman, a mother, and a human, I care very much about right and wrong, and fully use the good judgment that my life has given me to make decisions and raise our children.

 

As a partner in a marriage, I avoid judgments of right and wrong when engaging in conflict resolution with my spouse because I want to find a mutually agreeable solution. I often feel I'm right, but I bite my tongue until it bleeds and ask him how he feels, and why, so that I can understand what he thinks is right. In the end, we both come to understanding and a solution that is often better than what either of us each believed to be the "right" answer.

 

I do agree, but sometimes spouses do behave in ways that are not helpful in their conflicts with their in-laws. That is primarily what my own issues were with my ex wife in this regard.

[xxoo]

Well, we could get into why we married but I think it goes into an area that is a bit off topic. I'm more interested in how to deal with these issues or loyalty and honesty in a relationship.

 

The problem is that suggestions are based on the assumption that there is a basically healthy relationship. You can't communicate well enough to fix a broken person, kwim? And a healthier person won't require the kind of tip-toeing that you are describing here.

 

As for how to be loyal and disagree, I'll suggest how I handle this when my husband and I disagree about a parenting thing. We have a united front to the children, and we have our disagreements in private.

 

You aren't put in the middle of your wife and mother without your consent. Just stay out of their spats. "I don't want to hear it," to BOTH of them, in public and private. Your involvement likely made things worse.