I Warned Her...

[johan]

I told her a change was coming. I told her it would happen one way or another but it would come.

 

She couldn't commit or give me some idea that commitment would come some day. Just lots of fear and excuses. She said, "I'll probably end up marrying someone I don't give a damn about, because then I won't be scared." She left it to me to make the inference that I must be someone she loves enough to not want to have a life together. Confusing.

 

She should have known, but what could I do? I told her what was upsetting me. She could see it in my eyes and hear it in my voice. We've been talking about it more, and I needed to hear something solid from her. Something either way. She just wanted to stay in the middle. I didn't expect us to go all the way right away. I just needed:

1) progress toward a goal we both share

2) desire on her part to move forward

3) desire to remove things that stand in our way

 

I didn't see any of those things. She doesn't move her life forward. She doesn't move our life forward. Just paralysis and martyrdom.

 

Tonight the conversation escalated and I pressured her so she could see that I was serious. It had to be move in or marriage or something real and sincere I can hang on to that isn't just an excuse. But I just got nothing much. So I tried the "if that's all you got, then how can I even believe you love me" ploy. Of course she said she loved me, but mostly she just tried to turn the tables on me. She hates it here, because she's had no success here. She's had no success here, because she doesn't try to get a decent job. Ever. But she does plenty of complaining and never fails to tell me every negative thing she reads or hears about the job market. Just so I'll agree with her. But I never do, because she hasn't made enough effort for that to be a convincing argument. I just think it's bull.

 

She thinks moving to the coast somewhere would give her a fresh start. She tells me she wants me to move, too, and then she'd gladly move in and get married when we're both starting over in a new place together. I think it's a cop out. I'd have to give up a great job in Colorado with a short commute and access to all my family, just so she could try to run from problems that will follow her everywhere. And I don't see how a change of scenery is going to suddenly make her want something she can't bring herself to want here.

 

The conversation moved to "I guess we just want different things", because I thought she could come back with something like, "I just want you and I want to work this out". Another baited line, hoping to catch something however small. Instead she gave me her standard "I guess so" with a shrug to tell me she wouldn't dispute it if that's the way I wanted to take it. She wouldn't dispute the other way either, if I wanted to just be OK with everything.

 

She's had three years for God's sake! Three years to conclude something about me. This isn't high school. I'm 34, and I don't want to be single anymore. She just wants to drift, and to be honest my trust in our eventual success has been getting very thin.

 

So I said "people who want different things in life probably shouldn't stay together." She wouldn't say it. She also wouldn't say the opposite. No work for anything. Kind of like a kid waiting for the lecture to end. Whatever punishment you want to give me is fine, just please stop talking and let me go to bed. I ended up losing my temper and punching a water jug. She kicked me out.

 

Now I feel like an ass for scaring her. And I know in a day or two the loss will settle in and I'll start regretting things. I'll start wanting her back and thinking of how I might have been wrong. I'll start to feel the endless burn of loneliness and sadness. I'll break down and call her, and like the times before she'll take me back. Maybe. And we'll settle back in. Maybe.

 

Unless I can gain the conviction that I've done the right thing, and never doubt. That just isn't me. My convictions are strongest when things are going well.

 

I came straight home pissed. I packed up all the pictures and reminders and little gifts and put it all in a gift bag she gave me and put it away. I cleaned the bathroom mirrors where she wrote "I love you" three years ago. I kept that up there through thick and thin with her. I removed it tonight, because of the way it ended.

[moimeme]

I have a dear friend who tells me about 'entrapment'. It's the situation in which someone hangs on and hangs on to an untenable situation in the hope that 'tomorrow, it will change'.

 

In three years, Johan, has it changed? She may have issues and may need compassion, but when someone has too many issues to allow herself to commit in any way, and if this doesn't change over time, then you're caught in a mobius loop.

 

Yes, there are things you love about her. That's why it will be hard to let her go. But there are other women on the planet who have qualities you could love and who haven't quite as many issues and who can commit.

 

It is certainly noble and romantic to wait for someone to come around, but sometimes, Johan, painful as it is, you have to acknowledge that it's a hopeless situation - a lost cause.

 

Really, every human deserves someone who's enthusiastic about being with him, not someone who needs to be cajoled and persuaded to do so. And being 'scared' is maybe legit for a few months - but three YEARS?

 

I'm very sorry that this seems to be the end, Johan, but I can't help but think this will be for the best.

[johan]

Thanks, Moi.

 

I woke up this morning in pain and a little freaked out.

 

If I didn't demand the change and rock the boat, would the change come anyway?

 

If I never bothered her about it, would she feel like ollydolly said she felt: "I was used to people committing to me rather quickly and the one that took his time really got my attention. I've been with him ever since. He took his time and I think I liked it." Maybe I would have gotten what I wanted anyway.

 

I love having her in my life, but I wanted more. Maybe I wanted it because I was looking for more confirmation of her love. Do I need her to move in and make a commitment because that would make me believe in her feelings for me?

 

Should I have more respect for her idea of having her career underway first?

 

Now I've made this move and don't know what the next one is. Damn it.

[quankanne]

Now I've made this move and don't know what the next one is. Damn it.

 

the next move, my dearest johan, is to remain strong in your decision, no matter how much pain you may feel, because as Moi points out, "every human deserves someone who's enthusiastic about being with him, not someone who needs to be cajoled and persuaded to do so."

 

trying to rekindle a relationship with someone who, at most, sounds lukewarm about y'alls relationship is an exercise in self-torture. And a futile effort, because from what you've posted, it seems as one of you has a vested interest (possible marriage/committed long-term relationship) in the relationship, and the other is just there for the ride.

 

don't sell yourself short: She's out there, the one you're meant to share your life with. If anything, maybe this experience with the girl you've just left is supposed to help you see how a committed love relationship is NOT supposed to be, thus guiding you toward the one you're meant to be in ...

[CurlyIam]

Did you ask her for three children right away? Then I really don't see how you're in the way of her career.

 

I think you love her and I think 3 years are indeed difficult to surpass. But if you go back to her, to the familiarity of something you know, you'll get unhappy again.

 

Now that you've done it, stick by your guns and don't give in. there are hundreds of reasons for which people refuse to move on.

 

what I know is that if I ever find a decent man and I if I fall inlove with him, you can bet all your money I'll let him know and I won't let him get away. This has nothing to do with her moving on. It has to do with her loving you enough to move to the next level. you're obviously ready for it.

 

Her denying you that is not only selfish, but shows lack of love. She didn't even say "I'm scared". She didn't even talk to you, Johan.

 

 

Don't take any rash decision. Just take your time to analyse the situation you're in and what you really want. From her and from yourself. Take time to think.

[Merin]

Johan..

 

Damn.. I'm sorry.

 

You know honestly after 3 years together I can understand your frustration... I feel this way regardless of who the people are in the relationship.. things cannot stand still and they must progress, regardless again of what that progression is.. could be living together, or getting married.. but IMO in a serious relationship between adults there has to come a time that the relationship goes to the next level.

 

This brings you to a place where you wonder if you've made the right decision in ending things.. I guess thats a difficult question to answer and a very personal one as well.. in my last relationship I was with my BF for almost 2 years and I heard every excuse in the book and every promise as well about our relationship moving forward.. for me I ended the relationship for those and other reasons and although it hurt so much I knew I made the right decision because I didn't trust or believe him anymore about "One day" Just like you and your GF we had been down this road more times than I would like to admitt with breaking up and getting back together with the promise things would change... but I knew they wouldn't.

 

I don't regret my decision to end the relationship, although at the time I did it I felt very uncertain and hurt... I did move on and now in some ways even though it's bad... well actually probably in all ways it's bad LOL but I do feel a certain amount of satisfaction in knowing he has regret over loosing me.. and I found another relationship to stress over Ugh LOL!

 

Hopefully the days will bring you more clarity Johan... and I know that even if this wasn't the "one" for you.. I have zero doubt you will find the girl who is....

[johan]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate the support.

[moimeme]

If I never bothered her about it, would she feel like ollydolly said she felt: "I was used to people committing to me rather quickly and the one that took his time really got my attention. I've been with him ever since. He took his time and I think I liked it." Maybe I would have gotten what I wanted anyway.

 

When? Five years? Ten years? Johan, you gave it your best shot. All you have left is to hang on and hope that

maybe someday she might perhaps actually want you enough to confess to it. Until you retire maybe. You're settling for crumbs and scraps. It's not good enough.

[Donut]

I'm so sorry Johan.

 

I've been reading he's scared, she's scared over the weekend, and it has really opened my eyes to commitment problems, everything I went thru is described perfectly in the book.

 

My ex dumped me out of the blue, and started picking on my human faults, just as it was starting to get "real" between us after almost three years. We got on SO well together, I thought he was "the one", but as soon as I wanted more that was it, over. Like you I also want to build a life with someone special. It's the whole point of being in a relationship afterall.

 

If you were to move away with her, something else would probably come up so again she could stall the commitment, then it'd be something else, and something else........and it's not a reflection on you at all, you have done everything you could. These people who can't commit are too conflicted inside to settle into a normal "ups and downs" and stable relationship.

 

You've probably had the best of what she had to give.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by johan

I came straight home pissed. I packed up all the pictures and reminders and little gifts and put it all in a gift bag she gave me and put it away. I cleaned the bathroom mirrors where she wrote "I love you" three years ago. I kept that up there through thick and thin with her. I removed it tonight, because of the way it ended.

 

Man I feel for you. I went through the same thing with my girl. Only her love for me turned out to be more "platonic" and any mention of marriage was vehemently protested by her.

 

She says "You are a wonderful man" and "I don't know what's wrong with me..." and that all she knows is "it doesn't feel right..."

 

It's so frustrating to be helpless and NOT know what is wrong, only that something is and it's out of my control.

 

In your case, three years is plenty of time. If she can't make a committment now, she never will. Go no contact. Grab your things, move to wherever you need to and get a hobby to take up your time. If you follow the no contact rule and she comes back to you, take it SLOW. Cautiously and slow. Don't go right back to her right away.

 

If she doesn't come back after you've done some lengthy no contact you'll have gotten over her and will be ready to move on.

 

Someone who doesn't love you back is not worthy of your love.

[Mz. Pixie]

I'm sorry hon.

 

Totally trust me on this, when you find the one who is into you as much as you are into her then you'll know that turning your back at this time was the best thing you could have ever done.

 

Growth hurts, I know.

[johan]

We were in touch again during the week, like normal, really. I could tell she was bothered by stuff though.

 

Long talk on the phone last night.

 

Good things:

- She loves me. (I love her)

- She wants to see me and be with me. (I want her around, too)

- She misses me. (I miss her)

- She can't imagine a future without me. (Me too, so many things we love to do together, how could it be any other way?)

- She wants the same future I want: stable relationship, home, security, a good job, happiness, and love.

 

Bad things:

- She isn't happy in her life. No financial security. No good job. She thinks it's important to have everything in her own life figured out first.

- She thinks the fact I'm not dying to move somewhere else means I don't really love her. I just think it's not the right time, but I could in the future. There are lots of cool places to live.

- She doesn't trust me. Because I've had minor relationships (affairs or friendships) in the past with women I work with (ONLY while I was single and before I ever met her), she thinks that's what I do at the office.

- She can't rely on me. She thinks I'll kick her out of my house after she moves in because I'll get annoyed at her or her daughter.

- She thinks I'll bug her about money and put pressure on her to pay her fair share of everything or get out.

 

I told her if that's what she's come up with after three years, then we don't have a future. There's been no progress, and I give up on thinking it will change. I told her she's free to live her life, and I'll stop expecting things from her. And I'll live my life. I told her I hope to meet my goals for companionship and love eventually.

 

(Weirdly, she put the "no future" part together with the idea that I'd have someone in my life, and concluded I just wouldn't have it with her. Like she was forcing me to say I wanted to be with someone else, like that's what I want. Like I've been wanting it all along. I can tell when she's trying to nail me on something. Like it's all confirmation of her suspicions and then she'll be ok.)

 

I told her I'm just going to live my life from day to day and let the rest happen however it does. I told her my door will be open and I'll always be here.

 

This is where the slow decline into depression starts. More years of searching. And seeing her move on to be with someone else will make me feel so cold and empty. She'll marry that guy in 6 months. I should have known she was wasting my time.

[moimeme]

She thinks the fact I'm not dying to move somewhere else means I don't really love her. I just think it's not the right time, but I could in the future. There are lots of cool places to live.

- She doesn't trust me. Because I've had minor relationships (affairs or friendships) in the past with women I work with (ONLY while I was single and before I ever met her), she thinks that's what I do at the office.

- She can't rely on me. She thinks I'll kick her out of my house after she moves in because I'll get annoyed at her or her daughter.

- She thinks I'll bug her about money and put pressure on her to pay her fair share of everything or get out.

 

This means she doesn't really know you and doesn't trust you. And that's not love. For whatever reason, she is incapable of allowing you 'in' to her trust. And until a person is willing to allow you past her barriers, you can't have any sort of committed relationship with her. She may remain single for years. She may never be able to trust anybody.

 

If you run into any other women with deeply rooted issues, avoid allowing yourself to become involved until you see whether they are working on their issues successfully or if they're doomed to stay in their own prisons - in which case you'll end up locked in there with them.

[alphamale]

this is a sad situation indeed JOHAN. I feel 4 u. My problem is usually that the woman is saying to me i won't commit or compromise or come to a middle ground or move fwd.

 

I think u may be putting too much pressure on her. Leave her be for 3 or 4 months and see what happens. This is a case where the tighter u squeeze the quikcer they run away.

[johan]

This means she doesn't really know you and doesn't trust you.

 

Exactly. I told her and told her that trust must be given. She only thinks it can be earned. I think I earned it 1000 times. She never gave it.

[johan]

Originally posted by alphamale

this is a sad situation indeed JOHAN. I feel 4 u. My problem is usually that the woman is saying to me i won't commit or compromise or come to a middle ground or move fwd.

 

I think u may be putting too much pressure on her. Leave her be for 3 or 4 months and see what happens. This is a case where the tighter u squeeze the quikcer they run away.

 

Thanks, Alpha. You and she are probably perfect for each other, ha, ha. I'll PM you her number.

[SexKitten]

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC

 

Someone who doesn't love you back is not worthy of your love.

 

this is so, so true.

[CurlyIam]

Here's my take on it: some peoplenever commit. It doesn't mean they're good or bad. That's just how they are. Maybe it's you, maybe it's bad timing, maybe it's weather, who cares!

 

Another thing is... you know it. It's the instinct. I personally always knew if the man near me was a comittement phobic or not. I felt it in my guts. Sure, some denied it, other didn't even put on the effort of trying, it was I that was trying to fool into believing he was for real.

 

 

The minute you accept the fact that you, Johan, you cannot change people, you shall be free from her. You cannot change her. You cannot talk her into it, cannot make her, threatern her, can't do one thing for her. It's her decision. And I don't mean rational. She has to want it too. Be convinced by it.

 

Do you understand what I mean? Jo, stop doing all the work. Stop trying. As I see it, you're making a relationship with yourself, 'cause she's not near. No trust, no care for you, for your future, no effort... no love, Johan.

 

 

 

 

Put your relationship to the test, if you don't believe me. Stop trying and see if she's doing her part of the deal. I say she's not. YOu're alone, here, buddy. Open you eyes and see this. You cannot ask things from someone who's not even there...

 

IT's a tough time... and I don't think you're gonna give her up easily. But think of yourself. 'Cause that what she's doing.

 

Hugs,

 

Curly

[johan]

Originally posted by CurlyIam

Here's my take on it: some peoplenever commit. It doesn't mean they're good or bad. That's just how they are. Maybe it's you, maybe it's bad timing, maybe it's weather, who cares!

 

Another thing is... you know it. It's the instinct. I personally always knew if the man near me was a comittement phobic or not. I felt it in my guts. Sure, some denied it, other didn't even put on the effort of trying, it was I that was trying to fool into believing he was for real.

 

 

The minute you accept the fact that you, Johan, you cannot change people, you shall be free from her. You cannot change her. You cannot talk her into it, cannot make her, threatern her, can't do one thing for her. It's her decision. And I don't mean rational. She has to want it too. Be convinced by it.

 

Do you understand what I mean? Jo, stop doing all the work. Stop trying. As I see it, you're making a relationship with yourself, 'cause she's not near. No trust, no care for you, for your future, no effort... no love, Johan.

 

 

 

 

Put your relationship to the test, if you don't believe me. Stop trying and see if she's doing her part of the deal. I say she's not. YOu're alone, here, buddy. Open you eyes and see this. You cannot ask things from someone who's not even there...

 

IT's a tough time... and I don't think you're gonna give her up easily. But think of yourself. 'Cause that what she's doing.

 

Hugs,

 

Curly

 

 

Thank you, Curly. I hope you're wrong, or I hope you'll be able to offer more words of wisdom later on if you turn out to be right. What you're saying is pretty much where I am. I don't see a big need to keep trying to get her to move forward. I can't try anything new. I've done what I can. So I'll just look out for myself. Like I told her, I don't see a long-term future for us anymore.

[CurlyIam]

I've been there too. The saddest moment was when I stopped. I thought the world would stop rotating. Well it didn't. I expected him to cry, shout, protest... nothing. That's what hurt the most.

[simplyconfused]

Johan honestly she is not worth of all this effort and she behaves the way she does because she feels you are gonna stick to her no matter what. Just be strong. Make a note of all those things you don't like about her or the reasons you'r leaving her and stick it on the fridge or mirror or whatever so you can see it every day. Try to go out with other women for a change. Just let go of her, if she trully loves you she'l compromise!

[meanon]

A sad story, johan - I was sorry to read it. You seem sure she loves you, that the problem is that she can't overcome the fear. If you stayed as you were there would never be an incentive for her to do so. You do need to get on with your life, either with her or without her.

 

I know of other people whose lives and relationships are limited by such fears. If there is scope for change, it's often achieved at the very end point. There's no more powerful incentive than love. You're not quite there yet as you've both been in this situation before and in the past you have returned. You say you no longer have hope in a long term future with her. Given the length of time you've been together without resolving this problem, you are wise to be realistic.

 

in a day or two the loss will settle in and I'll start regretting things. I'll start wanting her back and thinking of how I might have been wrong. I'll start to feel the endless burn of loneliness and sadness. I'll break down and call her, and like the times before she'll take me back. Maybe. And we'll settle back in. Maybe.

 

Unless I can gain the conviction that I've done the right thing, and never doubt. That just isn't me. My convictions are strongest when things are going well.

 

I hope you remain free of doubts but if you don't, that's OK. You will find a way of regaining the conviction you need.

 

If you do get involved in discussions about your future again be very clear and consistent about what it is you want her to do to demonstrate her commitment to you. Be very reassuring that you want a future with her, one that involves more than you have shared in the past. Insist that if she wants and feels the same she will have to face her fears and you will help her do so. If she chooses not to make that commitment, then that's her choice but she's choosing not to be with you or expecting you to accept a life which does not have the shared goals you both claim to be striving towards. Don't try and write off the relationship, expecting her to contradict you, that will reinforce her fears:

"I guess we just want different things", because I thought she could come back with something like, "I just want you and I want to work this out". Another baited line, hoping to catch something however small.

It may also be worth making one final gesture to demonstrate your love for her and your trustworthiness, one that would be difficult for her to misconstrue. This would provide the finality and certainty that you seek. Don't leave your door open. Tell her she needs to do what it takes for you to be together or the door will be shut so that you can get on with your life. And it will be a happy life, johan, that's what all this is about. Don't forget that

[shamen]

Johan,

 

In another thread I mentioned that I hope that it works out with the two of you. Admittedly, now reading this whole thread, I just hope that you get what you need. To know one way or the other what the deal is...

 

You probably do need to walk away from her for a while to let her figure out what it is that really wants. Good luck, sweetie.

[johan]

Curly, she has gone away kind of quietly. On Saturday she called and we small-talked. She wanted to get together and offered to help me with my yard on Sunday. I turned her down on Saturday night, because I knew it would be weird and we'd just be bypassing all the hard stuff. She hung up just as she started to cry, which was damn cute and almost got me started. I haven't heard from her since.

 

SimplyConfused, to be honest acting the way you recommended would require more anger than I feel. To say she's not worth the effort is not true. She's worth it, and I'd do more if I could. I've just reached the point where I've realized that it isn't me that needs to make the effort. I'm not interested in seeing other women right now. Even if I knew for sure she'd never come through for me, I'm still just kind of burnt out.

 

Shamen, you're right, I just need to find out what's in her heart. I'm not happy with her the way we've been going. And I'm not happy without her.

 

Meanon, I did make a gesture toward her yesterday: I sent an email. Just a couple lines reminding her that I do love her and wish she could trust me. Careers and towns and whatever else shouldn't keep us apart. And that I miss her. I don't have the energy for anything more dramatic. I haven't gotten a response.

 

I was damn grouchy today at work. And I feel sad tonight. I guess the idea that she actually loves me and this will end up making her face her fears keeps me going. Otherwise I'd be worse than sad. I'm eating and sleeping and taking care of things. Usually when I break up with someone I let chaos reign for a few weeks.

 

All the rain we've gotten for the past couple days doesn't really help.

[johan]

We talked on the phone last night. And she responded to my email, too.

 

She said I am in her heart, and more than anything she would want to have a happy, stable future together.

 

She feels she needs time to straighten the problems out. She doesn't know how much time, maybe a year, maybe even two. The problems are very important, and before she fixes them, she can not move on in her life. She has been trying for the past year to work on them.

 

She said however, we still do not have the required amount of trust that is essential in order to build a future together for the rest of our life.

 

She said this is the third time that I have suggested breaking up. She understands all my legitimate reasons, and I am right. She does not want to go through the break up misery over and over a few times a year. It is very upsetting and painful, it hurts like hell...

 

She said she loves me, and she always will.

 

She wants me to be happy though, and it seems that I will be happier with somebody else.

 

She said that is very very sad, but she thinks it is clear and is the truth.

 

I can't get an answer that makes me sure of anything. I responded and told her she belongs with me. I'm putting pressure on her, because I need to know that she really wants to be with me, and she's not just putting me off. I could wait if I knew. Maybe I'm screwing up. I can't figure it out.

 

A friend at work told me that she once was with a good guy who she just didn't love enough. Instead of being straight with him about it, she just waited it out until something better came along. How can I be strong enough not to be crushed if that's what she does? How do I find out if that's where her heart is? Or how do I let her straighten out her life and be confident she'll be mine in the end?