gettingstronger Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 I considering grooming to be manipulation and yes, I would assume it happens in affairs- I know from my situation the following "grooming" went on- 1. My husband groomed our OW to be what he needed-guidelines of when she could/could not call, made it clear it would never be more than what it was, no intention of leaving me, she paid her own way to come see him on the road only on trips he said was OK, she stayed out of sight when told etc... 2. My husband groomed me as well- one thing that really sticks out was his complaining about cell phone coverage, in retrospect it provided a very good cover for him to be able to call me when "safe: for him while he was on the road and I was never suspicious when I could not connect to him- I assumed it was bad cell phone coverage- I think in therapy whats hard for him to come to grips with is how he manipulated those around him to be able to do what he did-it really is not who he was prior and I think its hard for him to admit that is who he became-
truncated Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) I don't like the way the terms" grooming" and "victim" are being thrown around. Ow are not children incapable or making a decision. It sounds more like mm tell the ow what they want to hear, need to hear to make themselves comfortable with the affair.For some, all they need to hear is " I wnat you", while for others, they need to hear justifications and explanations that can make it okay in their minds to get involved with someone who has made a commitment with someone else. I don't see this as grooming. I see it as dishonesty, but some of the responsibility lies on the ow for believing it. I know that's an unpopular view, but mm is already showing he will lie to get what he wants ( lie to hos w and pretend to be faithful to her). Why does an ow think she will be treated any different? Edited April 6, 2015 by truncated 3
Cinnimon Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 I don't like the way the terms" grooming" and "victim" are being thrown around. Ow are not children incapable or making a decision. It sounds more like mm tell the ow what they want to hear, need to hear to make themselves comfortable with the affair.For some, all they need to hear is " I wnat you", while for others, they need to hear justifications and explanations that can make it okay in their minds to get involved with someone who has made a commitment with someone else. I don't see this as grooming. I see it as dishonesty, but some of the responsibility lies on the ow for believing it. I know that's an unpopular view, but mm is already showing he will lie to get what he wants ( lie to hos w and pretend to be faithful to her). Why does an ow think she will be treated any different? Does it make you feel better to refer to OW as hos? Does this make WS look better to you? Okay so let's not call it grooming, let's call it lying and manipulative. WS's are lying manipulators, works for me, oh and let's not forget that WS is also a ho by your definition.
Cinnimon Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 MM are so attractive for some women who have "never found anyone else", because they embody what many women want in a life partner. The fact they got married in the first place marks them out as someone who is capable of love, someone who is capable of commitment, someone who is capable of shouldering responsibility, and ironically someone who is willing to be loyal to one woman and embrace monogamy. The fact that many married men have regular employment, own houses and are seen as pillars in the community, is icing on the cake. Bagging that catch is a huge achievement, when all the men she sees around her are "wasters", players, commitment-phobes and men with loads of emotional baggage. The MM is thus heaven sent. Add in a bit of charm, affection, excitement, a few gifts, trips away, and some secrets shared; she is hooked. She sees herself as Mrs MM within a very short period of time, or failing that she sees herself as his "special" girl. Have my own house, my own car, paid my own bills, have money in the bank, have been married, he obviously didn't " have the one" since he felt the need to find another.........
elaine567 Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 Does it make you feel better to refer to OW as hos? Does this make WS look better to you? Okay so let's not call it grooming, let's call it lying and manipulative. WS's are lying manipulators, works for me, oh and let's not forget that WS is also a ho by your definition. I think "hos" was a typing error by truncated - "his"
DKT3 Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 Have my own house, my own car, paid my own bills, have money in the bank, have been married, he obviously didn't " have the one" since he felt the need to find another......... And here is a major problem with a lot of OW. The odds are he isn't looking for another, he is looking for more or extra. May not seem like much, but oh how that small change makes a huge difference. 2
Cinnimon Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 I think "hos" was a typing error by truncated - "his" If that is the case then I apologize. 2
Cinnimon Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 And here is a major problem with a lot of OW. The odds are he isn't looking for another, he is looking for more or extra. May not seem like much, but oh how that small change makes a huge difference. Agreed. That's why I walked BUT it took me a while to see through the bull. 1
Mrs. John Adams Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 We have had the discussion many times about victims and predators.... and while i certainly can see that in my eyes it is possible....the bottom line is always...we are all responsible for our own actions. The circumstances surrounding our choice...may certainly influence how we respond.....but we still have the right of choice....and we still know right from wrong. Lionheart....your husband seemed to be "looking" for an AP. In my case...i was not shopping, looking, wooing, or grooming anyone. Was the OM grooming me? I think he was fishing....and i am the idiot that took the bait. I think a lot of people...men and women...throw out the bait in hopes somebody will bite...and maybe 9 out of 10 people will not take the bait...it only takes one to bite. I am quite certain after me....many more took the bait. 3
elaine567 Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 I think it is easy to come out with the adult card and that everyone is an adult and they made their choices, but the truth is that out there there are predators out to trap the unwary and there are victims vulnerable and weak ready to fall into those traps. Some predators are murderers and thieves, others are violent criminals and wife beaters and some I feel are MMs out looking to trap an OW. I think some victims are born that way, some have horrible childhoods and some have gone through trauma in their adult life. All have had the stuffing knocked out of them.. Some unfortunately end up reaching out to predators for succour. On this forum I see lots of victims and predators, many in the OW/OM section too. To suggest that everyone has a "free" choice, I think is too simplistic. Some do, some don't.
compulsivedancer Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 How many OW would get involved with MM if he said "my wife is awesome, our sexlife is great and I'm only looking for some extra ego boost or some excitement. I will say or do anything to get what I want from you as long as its in my best interest once it is no longer I will discard you and slide back into my marriage leaving you confused and broken" how many would sign up for that. This is almost exactly what xOM and I said to each other. Of course, sliding back into our relationships was harder than we thought, but then this was originally planned to be done with permission from both SOs.
Quiet Storm Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) I think many people seriously underestimate the number of people in this world with issues and flawed characters and the lengths these people will go through to get what they want. A person who is not a manipulator finds this very hard to believe, because we cannot imagine someone being this calculated and spending so much time & effort on a person. It happens so much, though, because these people often learn to manipulate & lie in childhood. It's not that hard for them. They have lots of practice manipulating people & situations to get what they want. Often these flawed character traits allow them to twist their motivations to have a positive spin- for example he may think "Yeah, I'm setting this up so she'll want me, but I'm a great guy, she likes my company. Even if I'm married & never leaving, I add joy/fun/excitement/sex/romance to her life". So even if he is purely motivated by his needs for validation, escape, attention or sex and uses grooming tactics to meet those needs- he's making it OK in his own head. He knows he's being manipulative by grooming OW to gain her trust and keep his secret, but tells himself he's doing OW a favor (because he's so special, you know). This thought process is not that different from many pedophiles, who will also lie to themselves "I loved the child. No one else paid attention to the kid. I actually cared and listened and spent time with the child", while grooming the kid to gain their trust, keep their secret, etc. I understand the difference in that this scenario is a crime against a child, but the predatory thought patterns & the excuses they tell themselves to make it OK, are very similar. In both scenarios, the groomer is taking small steps to get to their end goal (sexual abuse/ the affair), but they also often delude themselves into some twisted logic, thinking that their presence is actually a positive part of their "targets" life. Edited April 6, 2015 by Quiet Storm 2
Mrs. John Adams Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 Even though I agree that there are certainly evil people who prey on the trust and vulnerability of others....we still choose how to react. In the case of murderers, pedofiles, robbers....etc....you are speaking in totally different terms. A man that pursued a married woman is certainly not in the same category as a rapist. I had a choice to tell the OM...NO I chose to continue to remain in the situation. While he was experienced, and a player...I could have said no. I may have been vulnerable...but I still could have said no. My sympathies go with victims of "real" crimes.....but two people who consent to have a relationship are not victims of crimes....they may be victims of choices. I never want to diminish what a victim goes through. I chose what happened to me....and it is not on the same level. 4
Quiet Storm Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 (edited) Even though I agree that there are certainly evil people who prey on the trust and vulnerability of others....we still choose how to react. In the case of murderers, pedofiles, robbers....etc....you are speaking in totally different terms. A man that pursued a married woman is certainly not in the same category as a rapist. I had a choice to tell the OM...NO I chose to continue to remain in the situation. While he was experienced, and a player...I could have said no. I may have been vulnerable...but I still could have said no. My sympathies go with victims of "real" crimes.....but two people who consent to have a relationship are not victims of crimes....they may be victims of choices. I never want to diminish what a victim goes through. I chose what happened to me....and it is not on the same level. An affair is not a crime and OW are not victims. However, the grooming process that these MM's use is very similar to what pedophiles use- friendship, compliments, building trust, attention, making the person feel special, exploiting their weaknesses & vulnerability, etc. My post wasn't intended to minimize crimes or the experience of victims- it was about groomers and their manipulation tactics, and how they justify their selfish behavior in their own minds. Grooming an OW is not criminal and OW is a consenting adult, there's no doubt that. But the tactics these manipulators use to gain trust is very similar, whether they are breaking laws & victimizing innocents or just being an assh0le. OW's choice to engage doesn't make OW a victim, but it also doesn't mean MM had good intentions. Both can be true- OW can be responsible for her own choices and MM can also be a "groomer". Sure, OW should be skeptical of a MM's intentions and trusting MM isn't a smart choice, but this doesn't diminish a MM's responsibility for his own actions. Most OW don't realize there are websites advising MM how to groom OW, and they don't understand how the grooming process works, so it may be hard to recognize. And while an OW's vulnerability and/or gullibility is no excuse, I think it is an explanation. It gives us insight into how an OW may be receptive to a predatory MM's attention, and the fact that it doesn't rise to the level of "criminal" doesn't mean a MM can't be predatory. Nor does it mean that an OW has to feel like a victim. Edited April 6, 2015 by Quiet Storm 1
mlee08 Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 IDK but a MW grooming an OW is more up my alley. :-) My husband would help with it.... but he's usually not into the women I like.
carhill Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 IME, grooming (obfuscation of reality and emotional manipulation) tended to occur more often where marital status itself was obfuscated. Looking back at my own failures to deduce, I must admit the most effective groomers were those wrapped in the most pleasing package. IMO, such factors are a lot less relevant today than during my era as an OM, since a lot of personal data can be independently verified and, in general, people are a lot less trusting now than a generation or two ago. It's harder to groom a cynic with internet access
Mrs. John Adams Posted April 6, 2015 Posted April 6, 2015 quiet storm...i was not arguing with you or disagreeing with you. I just want to be careful that when we talk predators and victims in infidelity...we are dealing with people who made the conscience effort to betray their spouse. My om was certainly a player...and i was naive and vulnerable...but i still had the choice to say no. That's all i am saying.... and we don't want to diminish predators and victims of "crimes" as opposed to infidelity. 2
truncated Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Does it make you feel better to refer to OW as hos? Does this make WS look better to you? Okay so let's not call it grooming, let's call it lying and manipulative. WS's are lying manipulators, works for me, oh and let's not forget that WS is also a ho by your definition. sorry, it was a typo. it was supposed to say "lies to his wife" not l"lies to hos wife"
cocorico Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Coco what's PUA? Pick-up artists. Believe it or not, there is a whole industry teaching men how to manipulate women into ceding their better judgment when it comes to relationships. It's just up to each individual to make choices they think are right or even want to make. Including pulling back when a realization of where this could lead or going slowly into an A or going in full throttle. Individual choice. All choices lead somewhere. Life isn't a Fairy Tale at least not for long. I agree with this completely. I know others on this site have considered me "calculated" and "off the scale" but I do insist on only acting in accordance with my values, so I look into things before making huge decisions (well, they're huge for me) about who to get involved with and in what capacity. And I also make sure that any prospective partners consider carefully first before they decide, so that neither of us "just falls into it" and lands up making choices we regret. I am not prepared to become someone's "mistake" or "regret" and neither do I want someone to feel I pressured them into something without them giving the situation due consideration and making a choice they would be happy to accept responsibility for later. We own our actions and our choices. And if I'm considered "calculating" or weird for that, so be it. I'd rather live authentically and not waste time on guilt or regret.
cocorico Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 1. My husband groomed our OW to be what he needed-guidelines of when she could/could not call, made it clear it would never be more than what it was, no intention of leaving me, she paid her own way to come see him on the road only on trips he said was OK, she stayed out of sight when told etc... Wow. I have no idea why anybody - whatever their "label" - would put up with that kind of treatment! That definitely does fall into the "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen" category. I always thought that was a myth.
cocorico Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 I don't like the way the terms" grooming" and "victim" are being thrown around. Ow are not children incapable or making a decision. It sounds more like mm tell the ow what they want to hear, need to hear to make themselves comfortable with the affair.For some, all they need to hear is " I wnat you", while for others, they need to hear justifications and explanations that can make it okay in their minds to get involved with someone who has made a commitment with someone else. I don't see this as grooming. I see it as dishonesty, but some of the responsibility lies on the ow for believing it. I know that's an unpopular view, but mm is already showing he will lie to get what he wants ( lie to hos w and pretend to be faithful to her). Why does an ow think she will be treated any different? Uhm - because he treats her differently? He treats her with love and respect, and the way she wants to be treated? Because their R is very different to the R he has with the BW? Because the treatment of the BW is situational - and consistent with how the BW has conditioned everyone to treat her? And because she sees the MM in enough other contexts, with enough other people, to know that how he is "forced" to be in his M is not how he is, or how he would want to be? 1
truncated Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 Uhm - because he treats her differently? He treats her with love and respect, and the way she wants to be treated? Because their R is very different to the R he has with the BW? Because the treatment of the BW is situational - and consistent with how the BW has conditioned everyone to treat her? And because she sees the MM in enough other contexts, with enough other people, to know that how he is "forced" to be in his M is not how he is, or how he would want to be? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: that is too funny! Maybe in 1% of cases, but in most, the mm does what he does because it's getting him what he wants. You must think men are very weak minded individuals. Most men I have met are not. They can think and act for themselves, and they do just that. The truth is that married men ( and women too) will often lie, exaggerate and do what ever it takes to get what they want. I don't think that most are cold and calculating about it, rather, they will bend the truth if it means keeping the affair going. They will also lie to their spouse to keep it going, and this should put the ow or om on notice that they can and will lie. I suppose some may be okay with that, means to an end sort of thing, but if I was in the position of possibly becoming an ow, that knowledge would bother me. If he will lie to his w to maintain an affair, what other lies will he tell if he feels entitled to do so. 1
beatcuff Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) However, the grooming process that these MM's use is very similar to what pedophiles use- friendship, compliments, building trust, attention, making the person feel special, exploiting their weaknesses & vulnerability, etc. and now explain the difference between the above and the courting process between available persons. THERE IS NONE. what BS fail to realize and/or need to move forward is somehow their WS is a helpless victim. The OM/W has these superpowers to "groom" "predator" "affair fog" or whatever term of the month is... and before you say no, read this thread. it is filled with "blame shifting". these are NOT children. both persons had an idea a line was being crossed at some point and CHOOSE too. every night they came home to the BS and yet CHOOSE to go back. the more you focus on what the OM/W did the more you lose sight of the issue that the WS was unhappy (fine some are mentally defective). Edited April 7, 2015 by beatcuff clarification 3
DKT3 Posted April 7, 2015 Posted April 7, 2015 and now explain the difference between the above and the courting process between available persons. THERE IS NONE. what BS fail to realize and/or need to move forward is somehow their WS is a helpless victim. The OM/W has these superpowers to "groom" "predator" "affair fog" or whatever term of the month is... and before you say no, read this thread. it is filled with "blame shifting". these are NOT children. both persons had an idea a line was being crossed at some point and CHOOSE too. every night they came home to the BS and yet CHOOSE to go back. the more you focus on what the OM/W did the more you lose sight of the issue that the WS was unhappy (fine some are mentally defective). Just like in the affair, the WS isn't a victim in the marriage and the marriage isn't the reason they cheated. What I find odd is we have WW here upset of the idea they were groomed because it make them appear weak, yet claiming to be too weak to end the affair or even before that to handle the issues within the marriage. Whatever fits the situation I guess, however they can not blame themselves.
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