Trust: decision or feeling?

[flowergirl14]

When you cheat, you choose to throw away your marriage. You have voided your vows, you have terminated your marriage contract. What happens after that is often just one big mess.

 

A betrayed spouse may choose to stay. Often because caught by surprise, not having a back up plan, not knowing the finances, not knowing the fate of the children. But the marriage is now at best not the same. The marriage they knew is over.

 

 

 

So, what do you do. On another thread the poster described sitting at his desk with a loaded gun contemplating suicide. I know I was self destructive, suicide seemed like a good solution. My wife had cheated and did not seem to give a damn what she did to our marriage. Did an affair by me even matter, at least at that time in my opinion, could I even get someone?

 

I had a revenge affair. All affairs are wrong, so I am not justifying. I told her, I think I was even hoping she would kick me out so it would not be me ending the marriage. My RA proved nothing. I felt i needed to feel how she felt, infatuated by someone, desired by someone, an ego boost. Truthfully, I felt none of this. I can honestly see how you could have multiple revenge affairs, because they will never satisfy what you lost. Yes, it is wrong. Yes, there is no excuse. But, I can honestly say I would never have strayed unless this happened. So, I am weak and pathetic. You never know how low you can sink until something like this happens to you. I fully respect those who do not stoop to this low level. We see all kinds of reactions on this board to this trauma.

 

Everyone involved in infidelity needs to take responsibility for what they did. Once infidelity is introduced into a relationship, everything changes.

 

In your eyes was your wife as devestated as you were (when her A came to light) when she learned of your RA?

[Noirek]

Letting her know it is okay to feel betrayed and it is okay to not trust him. And that maybe, some marriages shouldn't be saved. And that just because she cheated doesn't mean she needs to show her belly and stay in the marriage. There is life away from spouses and it can be good. And also maybe to defend her when people diminish her pain and place her husband's affair on her shoulders of responsibility with her own. Maybe I just want to let her know that not everone believes in a "he/she/they started" situation. You mentioned emasculating your husband. Also a sexist term that soldifies the idea that female is worse than male. her affair is worse because it was first and she was female and he had to "reclaim his manhood".

 

But as I said I was not privy to your PMs. And it sounds like you have far more info than us to work with. And therefore have seen far more remorseful behaviour from her mad hatter.

[Mrs. John Adams]

i will answer that...no

 

I was not as devastated as he was.....and i cannot imagine he would say differently...but he certainly can answer for himself.

 

First...he did not have intercourse with the OW....and i guess here was a huge part of me that felt i deserved it. I didn't of course...because what he did was absolutely wrong....he knows it...i know it.

But if i had not betrayed him...he would never have felt the need to do what he did.

It was his decision...just like it was my decision

 

however....my decision...caused the rift, the pain, the tear in the relationship

[LifeWasted]

This stuff makes me want to cry. Too much pain in this world.

[Noirek]

i will answer that...no

 

I was not as devastated as he was.....and i cannot imagine he would say differently...but he certainly can answer for himself.

 

First...he did not have intercourse with the OW....and i guess here was a huge part of me that felt i deserved it. I didn't of course...because what he did was absolutely wrong....he knows it...i know it.

But if i had not betrayed him...he would never have felt the need to do what he did.

It was his decision...just like it was my decision

 

however....my decision...caused the rift, the pain, the tear in the relationship

 

What if the BS descision was to cut off sex or disengage from the marriage? It seems a slippery slope of blame. I didn't realize his affair wasn't physical. Was it emotional in a ILY way or just a rather too close friendship?

[Mrs. John Adams]

noirek...no one here wants katielee to hurt

especially me

 

but i do want her to face reality

 

 

 

i will ask you...have you committed adultery? Has your spouse then had a revenge affair? Are you reconciling?

 

Do not make this about sexism...it isn't.... I would give the exact same advice if the roles were reversed.

[Mrs. John Adams]

mr adams..."dated" another woman....there was some physical activity...but no intercourse.

 

infidelity...is infidelity...he betrayed me...just like i betrayed him.

He thought of himself first...just like i thought of myself first

 

 

it is all just damn ugly...no matter how you slice it

[Noirek]

noirek...no one here wants katielee to hurt

especially me

 

but i do want her to face reality

 

 

 

i will ask you...have you committed adultery? Has your spouse then had a revenge affair? Are you reconciling?

 

Do not make this about sexism...it isn't.... I would give the exact same advice if the roles were reversed.

 

There is no reverse for emasculate. I was only pointing it out because you used that as one of his reasons for cheating. Though he did tell you about it so I imagine his reasons were far more revenge based (you hurt me, i hurt you) based than for validation or other reasons. But I cannot discuss this futher because really you hold more cards with your PMs than I do and have far more info to work with.

 

My story is in my only two threads.

[katielee]

 

I want to hear Katielee...talk about what she can do for her husband

I want to hear katielee talk about doing everything he needs

I want to hear katielee put his needs first

 

I have done this... it may not be apparent in my posts but I have. And staying after he cheated twice I think is realizing that he was in pain and sick and is putting his needs first - giving him a chance to get well so we can perhaps continue with the relationship. And I have asked him time and again if I'm doing what he said I need to do and he says yes. Many times.

[katielee]

None of this changes the point of this first post - that trust is an issue - for BOTH of us. And it doesn't matter WHO started it, WHO had RA or what happened. We both cheated. Period. Now we have to move forward figuring out how to exist in a marriage where trust was broken on both sides.

 

I'll take plenty of ownership for causing his pain but none for causing his affairs. And I could take FULL ownership of everything and it wouldn't really have an impact on trust, just me rugsweeping and taking a well, I deserved it stance. I didn't. And someone not taking personal responsibility for their OWN choices probably harbors more feelings of mistrust. If i have to rely on my actions causing his actions, then WTH? It would be more trusting to be in a relationship where people own their own SH ! t And both people seeing that. While I think we're in that we still struggle with it.

 

I also think those who are healthy individuals don't choose affairs to cope, no matter where their pain stems from. That he chose this meant he was unhealthy to begin with or he wouldn't have gone there. That I chose it meant the same exact thing - I'm sure even more unhealthy - which just means we both have work to do to be mature adults. Mature, healthy adults just dont do this.

Edited April 3, 2015 by katielee
added a paragraph

[Zenstudent]

One of the major problems you create in your relationship when you cheat is, that you show by your actions that you don't value monogamy and trust yourself.

 

At this point, the relationship dynamics change. As a BS, this is what I felt: "You don't see our marriage as something special, why should I? You have shown me, that you don't respect me enought to stay faithfull, why should I? When you show me that you don't care about honesty, why should I? And why should I believe that you suddenly changed all these beliefs?"

 

Either you have terminated the contract we had, or the contract we have is just very different from the one I thought we had. Either way, the dynamics change.

 

I think the only way you can restablish some degree of trust is to be consistant in showing that you have changed/are changing. This goes for both spouses. To think that the marriage contract hasn't changed would be naive. So my take is, that the best path is to learn to live with partial trust - or split.

[katielee]

One of the major problems you create in your relationship when you cheat is, that you show by your actions that you don't value monogamy and trust yourself.

 

At this point, the relationship dynamics change. As a BS, this is what I felt: "You don't see our marriage as something special, why should I? You have shown me, that you don't respect me enought to stay faithfull, why should I? When you show me that you don't care about honesty, why should I? And why should I believe that you suddenly changed all these beliefs?"

 

Either you have terminated the contract we had, or the contract we have is just very different from the one I thought we had. Either way, the dynamics change.

 

I think the only way you can restablish some degree of trust is to be consistant in showing that you have changed/are changing. This goes for both spouses. To think that the marriage contract hasn't changed would be naive. So my take is, that the best path is to learn to live with partial trust - or split.

 

I agree with you for the most part, Zen... However, after he cheated I said to myself, I value MYSELF and I will not cheat back. I will not betray myself or you again. The problem with "you don't care about honesty, why should I?" It's very immature. It implies that you do this so I get to do this. If the relationship is to exist one person's actions should not have that much power over the other's. his actions shouldn't determine mine, like I have no values of my own, or vice versa. And people shouldn't be getting back at each other to prove a point.

now, i don't think he had his affairs (mostly) to get back at me. If he had, that would be another thing and harder to recover from.

[Mrs. John Adams]

None of this changes the point of this first post - that trust is an issue - for BOTH of us. And it doesn't matter WHO started it, WHO had RA or what happened. We both cheated. Period. Now we have to move forward figuring out how to exist in a marriage where trust was broken on both sides.

 

I'll take plenty of ownership for causing his pain but none for causing his affairs. And I could take FULL ownership of everything and it wouldn't really have an impact on trust, just me rugsweeping and taking a well, I deserved it stance. I didn't. And someone not taking personal responsibility for their OWN choices probably harbors more feelings of mistrust. If i have to rely on my actions causing his actions, then WTH? It would be more trusting to be in a relationship where people own their own SH ! t And both people seeing that. While I think we're in that we still struggle with it.

 

I also think those who are healthy individuals don't choose affairs to cope, no matter where their pain stems from. That he chose this meant he was unhealthy to begin with or he wouldn't have gone there. That I chose it meant the same exact thing - I'm sure even more unhealthy - which just means we both have work to do to be mature adults. Mature, healthy adults just dont do this.

 

Katielee...in all of our discussions....in all of our sharing...you always return to the same place. and yet....you continue to ask the same questions...you continue to suffer from the same pain...you don't seem to be making any progress.

 

Why?

What is it in your relationship with your husband that you still feel is lacking? What is it that keeps the two of you from healing...or making any progress towards forgiveness?

 

I cannot answer these questions for you...because only you know what it is deep inside you still seem to be struggling with.

 

You and i are very different people....and we are not going to handle crisis in the same manner. But i hear in your pms...in your posts...a great deal of resentment. You say you accept the responsibility for his pain...but then you throw it right back at him.

 

I know you can only give him what he says he needs...and he tells you that you are doing everything he needs....and yet....you still struggle. Through all the IC....through all your posts...you still struggle...

 

Why?

 

I feel that you are still questioning if this marriage is indeed still in jeopardy.

I boggles my mind that you are still so absorbed in HIS betrayal....that you never discuss your own. I confess...I just do not understand.

 

I wonder if perhaps...you concentrated on what you have done...instead of what HE has done...if your healing would come faster.

 

You don't trust him...he doesn't trust you....and your question seems to be...why.

 

Isn't KNOWING someone has your back very different than hoping for the best?

 

I suppose many of us are here because we thought our spouse's had our back but that must have been an illusion because they didn't. So, does that mean we surge forward and hope for the best? Knowing betrayal could happen again?

What is the point of trust then?

 

Your first post in this thread....indicates to me...that you are still struggling with a fear that he will cheat again. So...does this mean he is not giving you what you need to heal? Do you think that if you concentrated on dealing with what you did instead of what he did....it would help you?

 

I am not asking you to rugsweep his affairs....i am just asking if you change your focus...if it might help you.

You seem to want a feeling of immediate trust...in order to move forward....you seem to indicate that HOPE is not enough....and i am saying to you....hope...is all you have.

 

Trust will be a very long time in coming...so if hope is not enough....you have answered your own question.

[katielee]

I can discuss my betrayal all you want. What do you need to know?

 

how would concentrating on what I did - which I did for two years before his betrayals, help me healing from his? I think I've made a lot of progress. The most painful thing in the world happened to me and yet I didn't reach for that coping mechanism again. It wasn't even something I considered.

 

Is he giving me everything I need? No, but close.

 

I think we're moving forward. I think I'm making progress. Baby steps.

[minimariah]

I think we're moving forward. I think I'm making progress. Baby steps.

 

the problem is... your H didn't heal from YOUR betrayal yet. now you have both of you, hurting and none if you is close to healing.

 

you did make a lot of progress but that doesn't mean anything if your H mentally and emotionally checked out of his M, which i'm guessing he did. it looks like he's desperately trying to cope with the hurt + looking for everything be doesn't think he'll get from you (aka fresh start).

 

go MC & separate, that's my advice to you.

maybe things will be a little clearer after you both spend some time alone.

[katielee]

the problem is... your H didn't heal from YOUR betrayal yet. now you have both of you, hurting and none if you is close to healing.

 

you did make a lot of progress but that doesn't mean anything if your H mentally and emotionally checked out of his M, which i'm guessing he did. it looks like he's desperately trying to cope with the hurt + looking for everything be doesn't think he'll get from you (aka fresh start).

 

I agree with all this. And despite pedaling as fast as I could and trying to help him there was nothing I could do to make him heal.

But where does one go from here? How would a separation help. We are apart now. His father died yesterday morning and he had to go up there - 7 hours away. I'm supporting him as much as I can from home. We both desperately miss each other. I'm bringing up the kids later...

We had planned a REtrouvaille weekend for next weekend that is now probably going to happen in August.

We are doing what we can, getting a long, loving each other. But the trust part is coming slowly.

I don't worry that he's going to cheat again. I worry about honesty and him making decisions for me.

[katielee]

the problem is... your H didn't heal from YOUR betrayal yet. now you have both of you, hurting and none if you is close to healing.

 

actually, I feel we're both getting CLOSER to healing...

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katielee...

 

If YOU feel like your are progressing...if YOU are satisfied...then that is all that matters.

 

I am not the judge and jury....God knows....i live in a glass house myself! I am the last one to throw stones.

 

But it worries me that deep inside...you are still struggling with the idea...that this marriage is doomed. ...and you may be right. This marriage may be so very fractured...there may have been so much damage...that it cannot heal.

 

and only you can determine that. I think i hear you still struggling...and quite frankly...i am just trying to figure out why and what you can do to have some peace.

 

I do not... i have never professed to have all of the answers....i have my own demons i have to live with. But i hurt for you Katielee...because i believe you so badly want this marriage to survive....but deep in your heart you do not believe it will.

 

When do we finally say enough? When do we extinguish the flickers of hope we carry in our hearts? I don't know. If John had given up on me thirty years ago...or 10 years ago...or 20 years ago.....we would not be where we are today. But I would not have blamed him for finally throwing in the towel.

 

God Katielee...I wish i could instantly fix this for you. I wish I could give you peace. Instead i Clumsily try to type from my heart words..that are inadequate.

 

You certainly do the right things...i know you faithfully go to IC and do your best to sort out all of this....you deserve an A+. I truly believe you give this marriage 100%. I believe you are doing everything you can.....

 

Never think for one second...that i don't feel your pain or that i don't care..because i care tremendously.

[Zenstudent]

I agree with you for the most part, Zen... However, after he cheated I said to myself, I value MYSELF and I will not cheat back. I will not betray myself or you again. The problem with "you don't care about honesty, why should I?" It's very immature. It implies that you do this so I get to do this. If the relationship is to exist one person's actions should not have that much power over the other's. his actions shouldn't determine mine, like I have no values of my own, or vice versa. And people shouldn't be getting back at each other to prove a point.

now, i don't think he had his affairs (mostly) to get back at me. If he had, that would be another thing and harder to recover from.

It wasn't my intention to have this come out in a tit-for-tat way, all I'm saying is, that the relationship and the dynamics changes, once one party rewrites the rules of the game.

 

The phrase you quoted from my post, what I meant was: I thought she valued honesty the way I did, I thought we had each others backs. Obviously, I was wrong, I have learned from that. The relationship has changed a lot since I became aware of the fact, that it's all just a game to her, and that I can't trust her to have my back. My decisions and my actions have changed since then, ie. my plans for the future, retirement etc. everything has changed.

 

FWIW Katie, I think you have developed a lot since I saw your threads for the first time.

[jnel921]

Trust is earned, when you feel that the person has done all the right things and has warmed your heart again then the next decision would be to trust.

 

You would have to sense this. Just like in your own instinctual self.

 

Some take chances without regard, run wild in the wind, and trust in the higher power above to work things out when they fall apart and mess up. Those people are our WS.

 

When a WS starts to correct this behavior and show their BS that they can earn your trust and most importantly your love... You will feel it.

 

The final decision is yours.

[katielee]

I have to add - in the last 36 hours since his dad died he has leaned on me so much. And being there for him feels so good, so intimate, so "you are my soulmate" kind of thing. It's hard to explain.

We are not together as he went up right away and I'm driving the kids up Sunday But we have spoken more in the last day then in a long time... many phone calls. It feels goo. to be helping him with this, I feel like I'm his kickstand or something, holding him up.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katielee...in hard times, the truth comes out...sometimes in times of trial...we bond together and pull together...like in no other time.

I am so happy to hear your news...even though i am deeply saddened by your loss.

 

Make the most of this babe.......let him know just how VERY much he needs you....and how much you need him.

[Mazerati]

Katielee...in hard times, the truth comes out...sometimes in times of trial...we bond together and pull together...like in no other time.

I am so happy to hear your news...even though i am deeply saddened by your loss.

 

Make the most of this babe.......let him know just how VERY much he needs you....and how much you need him.

 

Through the darkest times shines the brightest hope. In the spirit of the season Katielee as you comfort and are comforted may a new bond be forged within your family, that is unshakeable.

 

My sympathy and my hope.

 

Maz