flowergirl14 Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 My wh said and still says all the right things. Tons of transparency, time accountability etc. Blah blah blah! My gut said he isnt being totally honest after dday. Lots of minimimizing, denying. We went to mc and the marriage counselor said trust is a feeling. Well I kept thinking that unless I got the whole truth I shouldnt trust him. Im 99 percent sure he is in another affair, different person. He just went more underground. Developed a different strategy. Thats the tricky part you can go with what the cheater says and maybe they are being honest maybe not. I chose not to trust because I had a "feeling" and I was right. However, my wh is a master manipulator and had I chose to trust him again I wouldnt know what I know. I think you listen to your gut feeling. If something doesnt feel right even just a bit off. Dont give your trust!
autumnnight Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 My wh said and still says all the right things. Tons of transparency, time accountability etc. Blah blah blah! My gut said he isnt being totally honest after dday. Lots of minimimizing, denying. We went to mc and the marriage counselor said trust is a feeling. Well I kept thinking that unless I got the whole truth I shouldnt trust him. Im 99 percent sure he is in another affair, different person. He just went more underground. Developed a different strategy. Thats the tricky part you can go with what the cheater says and maybe they are being honest maybe not. I chose not to trust because I had a "feeling" and I was right. However, my wh is a master manipulator and had I chose to trust him again I wouldnt know what I know. I think you listen to your gut feeling. If something doesnt feel right even just a bit off. Dont give your trust! This is a great post because instead of nursing your gut, you took action and found out the truth. It really is a crossroads. If one really does have a nagging feeling that there are lies, investigate. If one is not going to investigate until they get to the bottom of it, then one needs to choose to trust or choose to be content in trust limbo. I am terribly sorry that your husband manipulated you that way, however
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 Does it matter that she cheated first? If cheating is always a choice? And there is never a reason other than how broken the cheater is then wouldn't it mean her husband has no excuse or justifcation and she has every good reason to be hurting and struggling with trust. He betrayed her and she didn't deserve it. So if she has done the hard work of a fws and he has not who is currently in the wrong? Her? Or him?
Mrs. John Adams Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 Does it matter that she cheated first? If cheating is always a choice? And there is never a reason other than how broken the cheater is then wouldn't it mean her husband has no excuse or justifcation and she has every good reason to be hurting and struggling with trust. He betrayed her and she didn't deserve it. So if she has done the hard work of a fws and he has not who is currently in the wrong? Her? Or him? Katielee hurts...her husband hurts...but if Katielee had not betrayed her husband in the first place...none of of this would have happened. We have had this discussion many times...because i betrayed my husband....he was emasculated...I destroyed him and his world...it is my fault. He then had an affair to try to get back what i had destroyed...it was not right...he was wrong...and he accepts the responsibility for his actions....but ultimately it is still MY FAULT Katielee...has expressed that she is not responsible for her husbands infidelity...that it is on him.... I disagree...it is ultimately her fault...so i respect her opinion...but because she feels this way...she has a very hard time understanding that ultimately she is responsible for this whole mess. Healing your spouse...means that you understand you are responsible for the pain YOU caused. It means that you stop thinking about your hurts and your needs...it means that you place the needs of your spouse first...and until you do that...healing, trust, forgiveness will not come. 4
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 Katielee hurts...her husband hurts...but if Katielee had not betrayed her husband in the first place...none of of this would have happened. We have had this discussion many times...because i betrayed my husband....he was emasculated...I destroyed him and his world...it is my fault. He then had an affair to try to get back what i had destroyed...it was not right...he was wrong...and he accepts the responsibility for his actions....but ultimately it is still MY FAULT Katielee...has expressed that she is not responsible for her husbands infidelity...that it is on him.... I disagree...it is ultimately her fault...so i respect her opinion...but because she feels this way...she has a very hard time understanding that ultimately she is responsible for this whole mess. Healing your spouse...means that you understand you are responsible for the pain YOU caused. It means that you stop thinking about your hurts and your needs...it means that you place the needs of your spouse first...and until you do that...healing, trust, forgiveness will not come. So cheating is always the cheaters fault unless they were cheated on first? That seems wrong on so many levels and a rather narcissistic view to think you have that much power over someone that you made them cheat and it is all your fault. Remember how many people are told "unhappy in the marriage? Then leave". Does that truth also have an exception. I just don't buy it. Yes, personaly I would forgive my husband in a heartbeat. But I am not the OP and she is not me. And I don't think she deserves to have your affair thrown in her face and her feelings invalidated. It wasn't your fault your husband cheated and it wasn't the OPs. It was your spouses and their own personal issues. When the OP cheated that was her fault. We aren't children who should engage in a "you started it". To take responsibility for someone else's actions may sound noble but takes away responsibility from the party involved.
Mrs. John Adams Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) So cheating is always the cheaters fault unless they were cheated on first? That seems wrong on so many levels and a rather narcissistic view to think you have that much power over someone that you made them cheat and it is all your fault. Remember how many people are told "unhappy in the marriage? Then leave". Does that truth also have an exception. I just don't buy it. Yes, personaly I would forgive my husband in a heartbeat. But I am not the OP and she is not me. And I don't think she deserves to have your affair thrown in her face and her feelings invalidated. It wasn't your fault your husband cheated and it wasn't the OPs. It was your spouses and their own personal issues. When the OP cheated that was her fault. We aren't children who should engage in a "you started it". To take responsibility for someone else's actions may sound noble but takes away responsibility from the party involved. narcissistic ????this is about selflessness....when you cheat...and i did...you are totally self absorbed. when you reconcile...you become totally selfless If you choose to not reconcile...you can feel however you want to I was given a second chance...and i was willing to do WHATEVER it took to heal my husband...it is not about me...it is about him I thought about me...and it got me in this mess in the first place. Edited April 3, 2015 by Mrs. John Adams
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 narcissistic this is about selflessness....when you cheat...and i did...you are totally self absorbed. when you reconcile...you become totally selfless If you choose to not reconcile...you can feel however you want to I was given a second chance...and i was willing to do WHATEVER it took to heal my husband...it is not about me...it is about him I thought about me...and it got me in this mess in the first place. How can she be be selfless when he is not remorseful for his own actions? I notice you zone on my probable misuse of the word narcissistic. but it does seem a little extreme to agree to the level of hypocracy involved in mad hatter cases. I read some of her posts. She has done the right things and he hasn't. And yet you preach at her and blame the whole thing on her. even though he cheated twice. And wants to rug sweep his behaviour. From what I have read he feels his actions wiped the slate clean and now the whole thing should be over. For all any of us know she may have beat him to cheating. He showed he was capable of it.
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 It seems to me, Mrs A, that you believe every single struggling R is because the WS isn't helping the bS heal. And in this case you lay the blame at the OPs feet. But, that isn't always the case. You are giving her H a free pass on his behaviour because you are giving her more power in the relationship because in your mind it is all her fault "she started it". Not every person benefits from a one size fits all book. And for those who somehow had their lives changed by a pivotal moment reading the book maybe they just don't get that. Honestly, it sounds like you gave your husband a free pass.
Mrs. John Adams Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 How can she be be selfless when he is not remorseful for his own actions? I notice you zone on my probable misuse of the word narcissistic. but it does seem a little extreme to agree to the level of hypocracy involved in mad hatter cases. I read some of her posts. She has done the right things and he hasn't. And yet you preach at her and blame the whole thing on her. even though he cheated twice. And wants to rug sweep his behaviour. From what I have read he feels his actions wiped the slate clean and now the whole thing should be over. For all any of us know she may have beat him to cheating. He showed he was capable of it. I have talked at length with katielee in pm...she and her husband BOTH are remorseful and are BOTH transparent...and are BOTH doing what the other one needs to achieve forgiveness....according to what she has told me. I blame NO ONE....i am simply trying to help her understand what SHE needs to do to achieve reconciliation, trust and forgiveness...and ultimately PEACE. I have lived it ...I have experienced it...I have been in the SAME BOAT she is in.... I am probably the BEST person around here who understands what she is going through. Very few have cheated and then been cheated on.... Sometimes the TRUTH is a hard pill to swallow.....i am trying to HELP her...
JohnAdams Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 When you cheat, you choose to throw away your marriage. You have voided your vows, you have terminated your marriage contract. What happens after that is often just one big mess. A betrayed spouse may choose to stay. Often because caught by surprise, not having a back up plan, not knowing the finances, not knowing the fate of the children. But the marriage is now at best not the same. The marriage they knew is over. So, what do you do. On another thread the poster described sitting at his desk with a loaded gun contemplating suicide. I know I was self destructive, suicide seemed like a good solution. My wife had cheated and did not seem to give a damn what she did to our marriage. Did an affair by me even matter, at least at that time in my opinion, could I even get someone? I had a revenge affair. All affairs are wrong, so I am not justifying. I told her, I think I was even hoping she would kick me out so it would not be me ending the marriage. My RA proved nothing. I felt i needed to feel how she felt, infatuated by someone, desired by someone, an ego boost. Truthfully, I felt none of this. I can honestly see how you could have multiple revenge affairs, because they will never satisfy what you lost. Yes, it is wrong. Yes, there is no excuse. But, I can honestly say I would never have strayed unless this happened. So, I am weak and pathetic. You never know how low you can sink until something like this happens to you. I fully respect those who do not stoop to this low level. We see all kinds of reactions on this board to this trauma. Everyone involved in infidelity needs to take responsibility for what they did. Once infidelity is introduced into a relationship, everything changes. 3
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 When you cheat, you choose to throw away your marriage. You have voided your vows, you have terminated your marriage contract. What happens after that is often just one big mess. A betrayed spouse may choose to stay. Often because caught by surprise, not having a back up plan, not knowing the finances, not knowing the fate of the children. But the marriage is now at best not the same. The marriage they knew is over. So, what do you do. On another thread the poster described sitting at his desk with a loaded gun contemplating suicide. I know I was self destructive, suicide seemed like a good solution. My wife had cheated and did not seem to give a damn what she did to our marriage. Did an affair by me even matter, at least at that time in my opinion, could I even get someone? I had a revenge affair. All affairs are wrong, so I am not justifying. I told her, I think I was even hoping she would kick me out so it would not be me ending the marriage. My RA proved nothing. I felt i needed to feel how she felt, infatuated by someone, desired by someone, an ego boost. Truthfully, I felt none of this. I can honestly see how you could have multiple revenge affairs, because they will never satisfy what you lost. Yes, it is wrong. Yes, there is no excuse. But, I can honestly say I would never have strayed unless this happened. So, I am weak and pathetic. You never know how low you can sink until something like this happens to you. I fully respect those who do not stoop to this low level. We see all kinds of reactions on this board to this trauma. Everyone involved in infidelity needs to take responsibility for what they did. Once infidelity is introduced into a relationship, everything changes. Okay so once there is infidelity, even if the BS chooses to stay, the BS is now has a valid excuse for cheating? 1
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 I have talked at length with katielee in pm...she and her husband BOTH are remorseful and are BOTH transparent...and are BOTH doing what the other one needs to achieve forgiveness....according to what she has told me. I blame NO ONE....i am simply trying to help her understand what SHE needs to do to achieve reconciliation, trust and forgiveness...and ultimately PEACE. I have lived it ...I have experienced it...I have been in the SAME BOAT she is in.... I am probably the BEST person around here who understands what she is going through. Very few have cheated and then been cheated on.... Sometimes the TRUTH is a hard pill to swallow.....i am trying to HELP her... I apologize I didn't realize her private messages to you told such a different story then her posts. I had only her public posts to go by. If he indeed takes full responsibility for his cheating and is truly remorseful then perhaps their marriage is just truly damaged beyond repair?
JohnAdams Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 Okay so once there is infidelity, even if the BS chooses to stay, the BS is now has a valid excuse for cheating? I do not think that is what I said. 1
Mrs. John Adams Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 It seems to me, Mrs A, that you believe every single struggling R is because the WS isn't helping the bS heal. And in this case you lay the blame at the OPs feet. But, that isn't always the case. You are giving her H a free pass on his behaviour because you are giving her more power in the relationship because in your mind it is all her fault "she started it". Not every person benefits from a one size fits all book. And for those who somehow had their lives changed by a pivotal moment reading the book maybe they just don't get that. Honestly, it sounds like you gave your husband a free pass. Noirek...I do not know your story, your background. But i do know this....I had an affair. I betrayed my husband. I destroyed him. YET...he gave me a second chance. I became transparent.....i did everything in my power to prove to him that i am worthy of his love, his trust and his forgiveness. It is up to me...as the CHEATER... to do everything in my power to heal him from the PAIN i caused him. I have to be remorseful...I have to accept total responsibility for what i have done. The best book i have read on the subject of reconciliation is How to help your spouse heal from your affair by Linda Macdonald. I do not have all the answers....i have made many mistakes. But i do think i understand Katielee's situation....I do think i understand what it is she hopes to achieve....she WANTS her husband....she WANTS reconciliation.... but SHE needs to understand what she has to do to achieve that. and the first step is selflessness...regardless of what her husband did afterwards
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 I do not think that is what I said. You said no excuse but your last part was all excuses? And minimizing. There are many people who cheat while in a really bad place and they get flamed for it. While I can see that you justified your actions at the times and were seeking a way to soothe your ego and help with the pain you still made the choice. And that is a 100% on you. And your wife should stop taking the blame for you lowering your own standards. She is responsible for her actions and the pain she caused you. But not your cheating. You made that descision on your own. Whatever your reason. OP may have cheated first and confessed. And she is responsible for that. But she is not responsinle for his descision to cheat, twice. 2
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 Noirek...I do not know your story, your background. But i do know this....I had an affair. I betrayed my husband. I destroyed him. YET...he gave me a second chance. I became transparent.....i did everything in my power to prove to him that i am worthy of his love, his trust and his forgiveness. It is up to me...as the CHEATER... to do everything in my power to heal him from the PAIN i caused him. I have to be remorseful...I have to accept total responsibility for what i have done. The best book i have read on the subject of reconciliation is How to help your spouse heal from your affair by Linda Macdonald. I do not have all the answers....i have made many mistakes. But i do think i understand Katielee's situation....I do think i understand what it is she hopes to achieve....she WANTS her husband....she WANTS reconciliation.... but SHE needs to understand what she has to do to achieve that. and the first step is selflessness...regardless of what her husband did afterwards So you think she needs to rug sweep his affair and ignore her own pain and pretend that never happened? To be a doormat Ws and put his needs, even his previous need to cheat, before her own?
JohnAdams Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 Whoa......somethings are just not worth debating.......... 1
Mrs. John Adams Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 NO ONE has the right to cheat NO ONE however...if you have cheated...you MUST accept responsibility for what you have done My husband...has accepted Responsibility for his RA Katielee's husband has accepted responsibility for his RA BOTH of them now have to commit to healing each other Both of them have to become transparent Both of them have to learn to once again TRUST the other They both must put the other first I want to hear Katielee...talk about what she can do for her husband I want to hear katielee talk about doing everything he needs I want to hear katielee put his needs first 1
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 Noirek...I do not know your story, your background. But i do know this....I had an affair. I betrayed my husband. I destroyed him. YET...he gave me a second chance. I became transparent.....i did everything in my power to prove to him that i am worthy of his love, his trust and his forgiveness. It is up to me...as the CHEATER... to do everything in my power to heal him from the PAIN i caused him. I have to be remorseful...I have to accept total responsibility for what i have done. The best book i have read on the subject of reconciliation is How to help your spouse heal from your affair by Linda Macdonald. I do not have all the answers....i have made many mistakes. But i do think i understand Katielee's situation....I do think i understand what it is she hopes to achieve....she WANTS her husband....she WANTS reconciliation.... but SHE needs to understand what she has to do to achieve that. and the first step is selflessness...regardless of what her husband did afterwards If this is all true about then why are her posts so completely opposite of that? From her posts being selfless and putting him first would result in her being walked all over. That he is by actions more sorry he was caught than what he did. I really can only post on the public posts and they still tell anvery different story. I am sure the OP will come and clear it up. I imagine it was easy to forgive your H for his affair because you feel it was all your fault. And that worked for you. And then 30 years go by and you suddenly get it and that lets him finally heal. But should the OP suffer for 30 years waiting for her H to get it. Or because she cheated first does she not get to hope for that and should simply let it go? She doesn't trust him. There is a reason for it. It could be because she isn't cut out for R. Or it could be because he isn't making her feel safe. For me all the talk about being selfless i easy. Rolling over and putting my belly up is not hard. No, I'm not currently doing that but I have done so. But OP has a different personality than me. I imagine she will need to navigate this in a different way than you or I.
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 Thank you for sharing this. I hope it can help OP see into her husbands head. It's plain to see that no one is giving the OP's BH/WH a pass. If he were here, there is no doubt that he would be taken to the wood shed as well. No, but everyone is invalidating her pain, struggle and trust issues. Placing the whole thing on her head and telling her to be selfless before she even feels safe.
Noirek Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 I understand we must agree to disagree on this. I just see it a lot different. And I feel sorry for the OP that everytime she struggles she is reminded of her own affair and her feelings invalidated. It almost is like she is being told to get over it and continue to be a remorseful and opinionless WS. And I guess I get that. Cheaters are cheaters no matter what. 1
nightmare01 Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 YET...he gave me a second chance. I became transparent.....i did everything in my power to prove to him that i am worthy of his love, his trust and his forgiveness. It is up to me...as the CHEATER... to do everything in my power to heal him from the PAIN i caused him. I have to be remorseful...I have to accept total responsibility for what i have done. The best book i have read on the subject of reconciliation is How to help your spouse heal from your affair by Linda Macdonald. I do not have all the answers....i have made many mistakes. s A BH here with a dday nearly 14 years past. A sad truth is that you, the WS, cannot fix or heal your BS. Just like your BS did not make you cheat, you can't make him heal. Only the BS can heal them selves. TRUE, the WS can foster an environment where healing is possible (or impossible). I know you want to fix him, but really all you can do is be there for him, listen, and work at showing him you are worthy of a second chance. Your BS has to do the heavy lifting at reconciling all that has happened with himself. Sometimes even in the best conditions it just can't be done, and sometimes even in bad conditions it can be. 1
Mrs. John Adams Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 no one is here to place blame..no one is here to cause more pain. Katielee is struggling with how to heal herself and heal her husband from the trauma caused by he infidelity which then resulted in his infidelity. I am trying to give her advice on how to accomplish this...because i have lived through a very similar situation. What do you bring to the table Noirek? Nightmare..I absolutely disagree with you. As the FWW...I do the lifting...I carry the weight...I carry the pain ...and as i do do that...he rebuilds trust... The more remorseful I have become...the more my husband trusts me. The more he trusts me, the more he lets go, the more he lets go, the closer we become, the closer we become, the more he helps me do the work. 1
nightmare01 Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 @mrs. Adams This is complex stuff and there is no recipe or single path to healing. What you are doing is working, and that's great. Initially my WW was not the picture perfect WS. So our path was different, but in the end we are in a good situation now.
Mrs. John Adams Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 my path took me thirty years...i finally got it right 1
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