Cannot let go

[Hurting bad]

Hi. Thanks for any input and suggestions.

It has been 5 months since I had to leave my ex. I still love her and daily think of her. The 2.5 years we spent together were good but filled with a lot of moments and incidents that brought a lot of toxicity into it. The last four months were hurtful and the ending was not nice for both. It has impacted our group of friends and both of us don't talk to certain people now based on their loyalty. Last year just after our vacation she stopped going to work. Ended up being off till December. She has been depressed and was off for 2 years after she left a destructive relationship. Everyone had started saying it was me that was doing it given the fights that happened towards the end. Her parents, expressed views. Told me I was impacting her. It hurt.

It's been hard as our circle of friends still causes us to cross paths. Recently she has made contact wanting to remain friends. She is back off work and is now seeing a professional to deal with her past. I feel she still loves me even though she has stated she doesn't love me enough to spend the rest of her life with. She makes her visits to my neighbourhood known by walking her dog past or driving by, even though she has other ways in and out. She has been persistent in remaining friends. I love her still so intensely though and as much as I am feeling I need to be there as a friend I still have these deep feelings. She has also been abusive and has a very narcissistic personality. But I find myself still so in love with her. How do I let this go? Or what would you do. Please help! Losing my mind

[rebel]

Preeeeetty much reading my own story my friend. Me and my girl split two months ago over one particular issue. She turned very petty and has apparently 'moved on' in her words but I pine for her all the time, despite her being quite bitchy which in turn makes me feel like a loser for wanting someone who has kicked me to the curb.

 

Best advice is to talk to people. Friends and family. Dish a convo with someone (people do generally want to listen I have found). Im also seeing a therapist which helps.

[Satu]

What you describe is dysfunctional attachment, rather than love.

 

Find out what love is.

[Downtown]

The 2.5 years we spent together were good but filled with a lot of moments and incidents that brought a lot of toxicity into it.

HB, welcome to the LoveShack forum. I'm sorry to hear you are hurting so badly. You likely will get more insightful comments if you would take time to tell us what type of "moments and incidents" were so toxic and painful during that 2.5 year period. That is, in what ways was she abusive to you? Did it involve cheating and deception or, rather, did she simply flip back and forth between adoring you and devaluing you?

 

I feel she still loves me even though she has stated she doesn't love me enough to spend the rest of her life with.... She has been persistent in remaining friends.

If she has strong traits of NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) -- as you believe -- she is incapable of truly loving you or being a true "friend." As Satu noted, a narcissist is capable of dysfunctional attachment but not love or true friendship.

 

She has also been abusive and has a very narcissistic personality. But I find myself still so in love with her.... Please help! Losing my mind.

Perhaps she does have strong narcissistic traits. Yet, if your exGF really does have strong traits of a Cluster B personality disorder, as you believe, it is more likely to be Borderline PD (or a combination of BPD and NPD) than NPD alone. I mention this because of your statement that, five months after the breakup, you still feel like you're in love and "losing my mind."

 

Granted, a 2.5 year relationship with a narcissist might have that "crazymaking effect" on the abused partner. But, of the 157 disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5), BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be going crazy.

 

How do I let this go? Or what would you do?

Ideally, you would simply walk away, stop trying to "be there as a friend," and not give her any further thought. Yet, because you say you are unable to do that, and because you're still in great pain after a five-month separation, I would suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.

 

A professional also can help you become less enmeshed with this woman by helping you build stronger personal boundaries. I suspect that, like me, you are an excessive caregiver who finds it extremely painful to walk away from a sick loved one -- even when that is exactly what is in her best interests as well as your own.

 

I also would suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs to see if they seem to apply. Of course, being able to spot the warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your exGF's issues. Only a professional can do that. Even so, learning how to spot these red flags is important because it will help you avoid running into the arms of another woman just like the one you left.

 

An easy place to start reading is my list of red flags at 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in GreenEyedRebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join Satu and Rebel in discussing them with you. Take care, HB.

Edited March 14, 2015 by Downtown

[Hurting bad]

Thank you for all input. After reading replies I have to believe more so now that she is messed up in the head. She has been physically emotionally and physiologically abusive to the point that I have become like her just not physically. It's upsetting that the only option here is to walk away. I want to believe she can change. Does someone like this ever change? She has been the sweetest woman, but at the same time has tried to push me down the stairs! And I forgot to mention she comes from an alcoholic upbringing and drinks 4-5 tall boys everyday. She doesn't eat healthy and says I'm angry with her. Any more info I can provide to help me see thru this please let me know

[Downtown]

It's upsetting that the only option here is to walk away. I want to believe she can change. Does someone like this ever change?

The short answer, HB, is that she won't change unless she is determined to do so -- which hasn't happened in the past three years. So don't count on it happening anytime soon. The longer answer is that her chances of WANTING to change depend greatly on what is causing her bad behavior. If her dysfunctional behavior arises only from alcoholism, for example, there is some chance she will eventually go clean and stop the addiction.

 

Yet, if her bad behavior arises primarily from strong traits of a PD, the chances of her wanting to persist in several years of intensive therapy are very small because PDs -- by their very nature -- usually are invisible to the folks suffering from them (largely because they've been thinking in that distorted manner since early childhood). My best guess is that, if she really does have strong BPD traits, the chance of her having sufficient self awareness and ego strength to succeed in therapy are about 1%. And, if she has strong NPD traits, the chances likely are less than that.

 

I have to believe more so now that she is messed up in the head. She has been physically emotionally and physiologically abusive to the point that I have become like her just not physically.... She has been the sweetest woman, but at the same time has tried to push me down the stairs!

HB, the repeated physical battering of a partner or spouse is strongly associated with that adult having strong traits of a personality disorder, particularly BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Indeed, intense, inappropriate anger is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. Moreover, the inability to regulate one's own emotions (e.g., to control impulses) is another one of the nine defining traits for BPD.

 

If your exGF is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), she carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of the anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in less than a minute -- oftentimes in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions.

 

For these reasons, the physical abuse of a spouse or partner has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at 50% of Batterers are BPDers. Similarly, a 2008 study and a 2012 study find a strong association between violence and BPD.

 

As to her being "the sweetest woman" when she's not trying to push you down the stairs, I observe that BPDers typically are wonderful, caring individuals when they are not "splitting you black." Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. All that sweetness and caring, however, doesn't mean a thing when a BPDer's fears are triggered and she starts splitting you black, i.e., perceiving of you as the cause of all her misfortunes. Moreover, the switch between "splitting you white" and "splitting you black" can occur in only ten seconds.

 

She has been depressed and was off for 2 years after she left a destructive relationship.

Suffering from depression does not rule out a person having a PD such as BPD because it is common for PDs to be accompanied by a co-occurring clinical disorder such as depression. Indeed, a recent large-scale study found that 36% of female BPDers also suffer from MDD (Major Depressive Disorder) -- and that 81% suffer from MDD or another mood disorder. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

Any more info I can provide to help me see thru this please let me know.

If your exGF really does have strong BPD traits, you should be seeing most of the 18 warning signs I referred to in my link above. If so, it would be very helpful if you would copy and paste them below -- telling us which of those 18 traits are strong and which were seen only weakly, if at all. (Alternatively, you could simply tell us which trait numbers apply strongly and which don't.)

 

If you ultimately decide you are seeing most of those traits at a strong level, I would be glad to suggest several free online articles that provide useful tips for abused partners who are trying to leave BPDers. Because BPDers usually exude a childlike warmth and project a strong vulnerability, it typically is very painful to walk away from a two-year relationship -- especially if you're a caregiver like me. In many respects, the nonBPDer feels like he is abandoning a child.

[Hopeful714]

But in the case of princess Diana wouldn't you say that yes, most of her issues WERE caused by Prince Charles? After all...he married her as a young girl under very false pretenses. Not to mention the extreme situation she was in in that family.

 

Luv u DT, just sayin...

[Hurting bad]

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor comment or infraction;

2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"

3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;

5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;

7. Low self esteem;

8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums or cold sulking that typically start in seconds and last several hours;11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);

12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;

13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"

These are the closet to her I could see

[Downtown]

HB, you list half of the 18 BPD warning signs as being strong. If so, there likely are one or two signs that you've overlooked and should be on your list. I say this because I created that list by giving two examples of how each of the 9 defining traits for BPD typically are exhibited. Hence, if you recognize one of those paired examples, the other example of behavior very likely is present also.

 

A strong fear of abandonment (trait #9), for example, is not on your list but is implied by the presence of trait #3, i.e., the "Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members." Behaviors #3 and #9 are examples of how a strong fear of abandonment would show itself.

 

Specifically, when a person has a strong fear of abandonment, it typically is most evident in irrational jealousy (because she is so afraid someone will try to steal you away) and in controlling behavior (because she wants to control your private life to reduce your chances of leaving her). Such control is much easier to exercise, of course, if she can successfully isolate you away from friends and family members -- who otherwise might support you by saying something like "That's the most ridiculous excuse I've ever heard...."

 

In addition to trait #9, I also suspect you should be including trait #6, "Frequently creating drama over minor issues." I suspect this based on your inclusion of trait #8, which is "Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined)." Like traits 3 and 9, traits 6 and 8 are two sides of the same coin, i.e., the creation of drama and arguments over minor issues in order to push the partner away, thereby giving the BPDer relief from feeling overwhelmed and engulfed by too much intimacy.

 

How do I let this go?

HB, I offer several suggestions for moving forward and letting go of a relationship you describe as toxic to both parties.

 

As an initial matter, if you decide your exGF exhibits most of the BPD warning signs at a strong and persistent level, I recommend that you NOT tell her about your suspicions. If she really is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. So, instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist and let the psych decide what to tell her. Only a professional can determine whether her BPD traits are so strong and persistent that they satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD.

 

Second, if you want a good book on the subject, I suggest you read Stop Walking on Eggshells, the best-selling BPD book targeted to the abused spouses. Another excellent book on this issue is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.

 

Third, I suggest you read the professional advice given at BPDfamily Articles. Of the 15 articles offered there, the two most useful ones likely will be "Surviving a Breakup when Your Partner has Borderline Personality" (article 9) and "Leaving a Partner with BPD" (article 10).

 

Fourth, if you still are in a lot of pain or still feel very tempted to reconcile with your exGF, I again suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. As I've explained in many other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along.

 

Therapists generally are loath to tell high functioning BPDers (much less tell their BFs or insurance companies) the name of the disorder -- for the client's own protection. Hence, to obtain a candid assessment, it is important to see a psychologist who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers.

 

Fifth, if you suspect that you are an excessive caregiver like me, I suggest you read an Shari Schreiber's explanation of how we got to be this way during our childhood. You will find it at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. Schreiber argues that, due to childhood dynamics with our parents, our desire to be needed (for what we can do) FAR exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). The last half of her article is the most insightful part so please be patient if you decide to read it.

 

Finally, HB, please don't forget those of us on this LoveShack forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers. Indeed, your story already has attracted over 200 views in only 10 hours.

[rebel]

Awesome insight downtown. These threads are great!

 

I mentioned this in my thread, but I had an online session with a therapist that deals with CBT (cognitive behaviour therapy). It was amazing! He gave me alot of great insights and I think long term, this will be realy helpful for people whose thinking restricts them from moving on.

 

He is an online therapist so if anyone wants his details I can give them.

[Seerz]

Thank you for your post Downtown this helped me a lot

[CopingGal]

My ex has a personality disorder- antisocial personality disorder (sociopathy) and strong elements of a second personality disorder- narcissistic personality disodrer

 

I stay FAR away from my ex. He was emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive, and he thought mentally torturing me was fun. He is a VERY sick man who pretends to be a really cool guy who has it all together. In reality he is a broken shell of a person who doesn't understand that you can have a relatiosnhip without tons of lies.