Ruby Slippers Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I agree that this relationship has no real future in a romantic sense. You and he are basically FWB+, and for women, those involvements are a dime a dozen to come by. Here's my interpretation of your opening post: So I've been feeling for a while now that, in terms of spending time with my BF, I get the scraps. A woman he loved and adored would get the best of his free time. Sorry, but it's true. Often, I feel like I do the heavy lifting when it comes to making sure we have time together. When we do make time, I find that I often have to wait for him, and when he does show up, he's tired or he doesn't seem like he ever wants to do anything. All of this says he's not that into you and not motivated to please you, or even that motivated to spend time with you. When a guy really likes you, he can't wait to be with you again, and it's obvious when he sees you that's he very happy to see you. I wasn't expecting his reaction. He got upset, said he felt bad about making me feel bad, and then kind of shut down (ugh). After a long silence, he admitted that he was being selfish, but that he was feeling freaked out and couldn't agree to that level of commitment; that he'd be afraid he wouldn't be able to keep plans or set aside time for me, and that he'd disappoint me and he doesn't want to upset me. He realizes that you're not happy with this FWB+ arrangement. He feels guilty about not giving you what you really want (love). He admits he is not truly invested and this is all he can give. I respect him for that. He's being honest with himself and you. I assured him I wasn't asking for some next-level sh*t, and that I was just telling him that it would help me to feel secure about our relationship if we were more communicative. But you do want the next level - and that's natural and healthy. The problem is he doesn't. For example, I have a one-and-a-half hour long commute to work (mostly by train), so if we're going to spend a weeknight together, I've asked that we plan just one day ahead, so that I can be sure to bring overnight stuff with me and a change of clothes (he also said he's not ready for me to leave more than a toothbrush at his place). He wasn't even able to promise that. So you're giving him your body, your time, your affection, whatever you have to give, and he can't even make a plan a day in advance, or make room for more than your toothbrush. When a guy really likes you, he'll plan days in advance, and clear out large spaces in his home for you, often even inviting you to move in within months. He kept saying that he's freaked out, that he feels we're moving too fast, that he doesn't know what he wants, and that he needed time to think about it. He knows what he doesn't want, and that's a real relationship with you. Sorry. So imagine my surprise when he texted me around 11:00, asking if I was there. I said yes, and he started texting an apology, but then thought better of it and called. He said he was sorry for being an ass, that he was sorry for making me feel bad, and that we'd "work it out." This is him just realizing that you want what every woman wants - real love - and he doesn't feel that for you. "Working it out", to him, means behaving just sweet enough that you'll keep the sex and companionship coming. If he's not in love with you within 6 months, he never will be. I'm sorry. He may care for you, admire you, think you're a wonderful girl - but he is not in love with you, and that won't change. He might grow to "love" you, but he doesn't feel it without an effort behind it. We need to have a longer convo about it, obviously. This is the last thing you need to do. Everything has been said. Everything is clear. All he's going to do now is damage control, to keep the FWB+ arrangement going. He might also start looking around for someone else, because he knows you're not happy, and he knows he doesn't have the feelings you want your man to have. At first I was relieved, but now I'm wondering how to proceed. I feel like a wait and see approach will be best. I'm not expecting perfection from him (and told him that), but at the same time, I don't want to be with someone who isn't all-in. How long do you give a guy to figure out how he feels? Men know how they feel very fast. When a man is enamored with you, it's obvious very soon. Of course, only time will verify the depth of his feelings and his real level of commitment. Men don't suddenly fall in love with you after months of dating. If it's not there pretty soon, it never will be. Edited to add: I have felt like this has been the truth of the matter for some time, which is why I waited so long to say anything—I really didn't want to know the answer. I think you're afraid that you can't find a man who really loves you. It's not easy to find real love. But as long as you're stuck in this disappointing, frustrating, unfulfilling arrangement, you are not loving yourself, and you're not leaving room for a man who really loves you to be part of your life. He says we'll work it out, but will we? Again, working it out to him means damage control - doing just enough to keep your sex and companionship on the table. It's not easy to find even a decent, trustworthy person for a casual arrangement, especially for a guy in his 30s with very little experience. It's like he has a temp job that pays just enough to cover his bills. It's not his dream job, but he's going to hold onto it until he can find that dream job - which may never happen, because many people don't even have the balls to pursue their real dreams. Many people live lives of quiet desperation. That's not an energy I want in my life, so I won't be with a guy who views me as some temporary time-filler. I wouldn't advise anyone to settle for that - unless it's truly making you happy. But it's obviously not. You CAN do better. 3
writergal Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I agree that this relationship has no real future in a romantic sense. You and he are basically FWB+, and for women, those involvements are a dime a dozen to come by. Here's my interpretation of your opening post: A woman he loved and adored would get the best of his free time. Sorry, but it's true. All of this says he's not that into you and not motivated to please you, or even that motivated to spend time with you. When a guy really likes you, he can't wait to be with you again, and it's obvious when he sees you that's he very happy to see you. He realizes that you're not happy with this FWB+ arrangement. He feels guilty about not giving you what you really want (love). He admits he is not truly invested and this is all he can give. I respect him for that. He's being honest with himself and you. But you do want the next level - and that's natural and healthy. The problem is he doesn't. So you're giving him your body, your time, your affection, whatever you have to give, and he can't even make a plan a day in advance, or make room for more than your toothbrush. When a guy really likes you, he'll plan days in advance, and clear out large spaces in his home for you, often even inviting you to move in within months. He knows what he doesn't want, and that's a real relationship with you. Sorry. This is him just realizing that you want what every woman wants - real love - and he doesn't feel that for you. "Working it out", to him, means behaving just sweet enough that you'll keep the sex and companionship coming. If he's not in love with you within 6 months, he never will be. I'm sorry. He may care for you, admire you, think you're a wonderful girl - but he is not in love with you, and that won't change. He might grow to "love" you, but he doesn't feel it without an effort behind it. This is the last thing you need to do. Everything has been said. Everything is clear. All he's going to do now is damage control, to keep the FWB+ arrangement going. He might also start looking around for someone else, because he knows you're not happy, and he knows he doesn't have the feelings you want your man to have. Men know how they feel very fast. When a man is enamored with you, it's obvious very soon. Of course, only time will verify the depth of his feelings and his real level of commitment. Men don't suddenly fall in love with you after months of dating. If it's not there pretty soon, it never will be. I think you're afraid that you can't find a man who really loves you. It's not easy to find real love. But as long as you're stuck in this disappointing, frustrating, unfulfilling arrangement, you are not loving yourself, and you're not leaving room for a man who really loves you to be part of your life. Again, working it out to him means damage control - doing just enough to keep your sex and companionship on the table. It's not easy to find even a decent, trustworthy person for a casual arrangement, especially for a guy in his 30s with very little experience. It's like he has a temp job that pays just enough to cover his bills. It's not his dream job, but he's going to hold onto it until he can find that dream job - which may never happen, because many people don't even have the balls to pursue their real dreams. Many people live lives of quiet desperation. That's not an energy I want in my life, so I won't be with a guy who views me as some temporary time-filler. I wouldn't advise anyone to settle for that - unless it's truly making you happy. But it's obviously not. You CAN do better. +1 Ruby! Everything you've written is spot on! 1
preraph Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 But why decide to be bf/gf? Seems like that was an unnecessary step if this is all there is. For the record, he doesn't mind the toothbrush, it's anything beyond that he minds. Probably because to him this means he can stop courting you and just have sex without having to make any effort. It means different things to different people. And yet, he doesn't want commitment. He wants the comfort of not having to impress a woman by being fun, with the understanding the door is always open for sex. He's just not good relationship material. He may not even have the capacity for it. Some people are genuinely not up to everyday standards. 5
BluEyeL Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I agree with this ^^ Some men just can't do it. They may never be that man that can be all in into a relationship. My ex-H would let me wait for him and do similar stuff with your BF, while we were dating. And while we did get married, he was never in the relationship, in the marriage. He was married, technically, but not really. You don't want that. I think my ex-H would not make a good husband to anyone no matter who she was. 1
katiegrl Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I hope losangelina isn't feeling bad right now... (((((group hug))))) 4
Ruby Slippers Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I hope losangelina isn't feeling bad right now... (((((group hug))))) I agree. It's not personal. Someone on this site once gave the tip to look for a good relationship, rather than fixate on any particular person. I think that's great advice for any relationship, not just romantic. The positive here is that he sounds like a decent, honest guy. He's the same as most men in that he doesn't yet have the courage to go for a woman he really adores - and he might never. But at least he's not lying and jerking you around. He can't control his level of feeling for you, but he can control how he treats you, and he's doing OK there. 1
acrosstheuniverse Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I tell you, it's a typical response. You ask for some advance notice or just ANYTHING in the way of courtesy and they think you're asking for a ring and bail. Chalk it up to him not being ready for a real relationship. In the future, I've found that by far the best way to handle it is to not let it reach the point to where you have to get on them for something that's been going on that you've been tolerating for awhile. You stop it the first time it happens unless someone died or something. Four little words: "Sorry, I have plans." No explanation. You simply are not available at the last minute, ever. If they want to see you, they need to get used to being courteous from the beginning. And if they cannot, they are not the man for you. Because I don't know about you, but I like a man who can tell time. This is exactly how I always treat my dating partners, and actual partners! It helps that until recently I was EXTREMELY busy, 70 hours per week of work busy, so if a guy wanted to see me he needed to plan in advance, and ask me out days in advance, or I simply would not be busy. If I had some free time I would plan something cool in to relax with friends, so a guy trying to ask me out later that day would always get 'I have plans' because I did. It sure worked at weeding out the guys who were terrible at planning ahead or didn't like me enough to try, and meant I only spent time with guys who were willing to commit to seeing me rather than waiting until the day, deciding they'd like to see me, and then assuming I would be free to see them. It was a good sieve and meant I only ended up in relationships with guys who liked me enough to put the effort in. My current boyfriend to be fair was previously more of a 'wait and see' and ask someone to hang out that day kinda guy but when he realised it didn't work for me, and I turned down his offer of a drink that night, he would start to book my time out days infront with an actual date plan. People treat you with the respect you demand and you teach them how to treat you. It's really messed up he isn't comfortable with anything more than a toothbrush at his place after SIX MONTHS, though! I mean wow, he must have some serious issues if he can't handle a change of clothes kicking around one of his drawers. Who else does he have sleep round when you're not there? By six months in my guy and I were moving in officially together, although we'd been practically living at mine since a couple months into the relationship, but even with other boyfriends I haven't moved quickly with, it's never any bother to keep some pyjamas and toiletries at one another's place, I mean who could have an issue with that? That alone to me screams he's not into you enough for this to go anywhere, and that to me means it's not worth pursuing any longer, getting more emotionally invested, being off the market when the right person DOES come along... why drag the pain out? Wait for someone who thinks you're so awesome they can't wait to plan a date so they have it to look forward to in their week, and who is happy for you to leave some clothes at theirs so they can fall asleep snuggled up and inhaling your scent, although he'd never admit it 4
preraph Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I think his apology basically was just an admission that he knows he is lame at this relationship thing, but no I don't think it means he's willing to change. 2
Eighty_nine Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 I think most posters may be taking it a little too far, here. What's happened is definitely cause for concern. But he's committed to you in some ways, like being your boyfriend, attending Holiday parties with you, inviting you on a trip with him, apparently getting to know your friends, etc. He's not shown NO interest in a long-term committed relationship with you. You definitely have to back off. Let him come to you, let him make plans. At this point, I'd not see him unless HE makes the plan. Yeah, he might say "want to come over?" instead of "I want to see you," but that's still him reaching out. Stop doing that, and let him. He might step up & might not. It could make him realize how important you are to him. I think he called you that night because you (rightfully so) left quietly and he realized he might lose you and panicked. Definitely show him how you feel about this with ACTIONS, not words. I wouldn't even bring it up again... just let him do 100% of the reaching out and making plans, for now. His action or inaction will tell you a lot. Much of the reason why I say this and not "dump him now" is because of the cultural differences as well as his inexperience. These might be huge factors in why he isn't stepping up, and not just that he's "not that into you." 1
Dropped71 Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 The upshot is she and any women reading this will avoid inexperienced guys.
Author losangelena Posted March 13, 2015 Author Posted March 13, 2015 I hope losangelina isn't feeling bad right now... (((((group hug))))) Ah, ha! I had to chuckle at this, and thank you! I mean, I do feel bad, and oscillate between being angry and sad. I hear what all of you are saying, and agree to a large extent. My mom said I should try to put what was said in the heat of the moment aside, and judge my bf by his actions going forward, but the worst part of all this is that the seeds of doubt have been sewn for me. I don't know how to possibly move forward with him when I'm going to constantly question whether his words or actions are genuine, or him just "doing enough" to get me to stay. Despite advice to the contrary, I'm not going to pull the trigger yet. I'm not ready. Maybe it's me clinging to some pipe dream, but I want to see what happens in the next few weeks, if anything. I know there is probably very little chance of a future. I also do feel like I could probably do better (though the thought of having to start over sounds exhausting, given that he was the 30th man I'd met over the course of about nine ten months). But I'm just not ready. Thanks for all the advice and encouragement and straight talk, ladies. I hear it all and do truly appreciate it. I will keep you posted. 3
DivorcedDad123 Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 I think you're doing the right thing. The only bothersome thing to me would be that you can't leave extra clothing, toiletries, etc.,, at his place. With your distance, and you not driving, that would be a burden every time you went over to his place. Having to lug all of those things around with you. Other than that, he sounds like a normal guy who has his own life. He included you in it and if didn't want to do so, he wouldn't have invited you on the trip. He came through on Valentines even after dropping the ball for Christmas. I think too often we want our SO to have us be their "everything". That they should be able to tell what we want, when we're not happy,want to spend every moment with us, and so on. That's pretty selfish on our part and not realistic. People have their own lives apart from us. It doesn't mean they don't love or like spending time with their SO, it just means that they(we) also have other things they(we) do while apart.
Author losangelena Posted March 13, 2015 Author Posted March 13, 2015 Thanks, DD123. I agree with you. I want him to have his own life, very much so. In fact, I was very blunt about the fact that I'm totally fine with the amount of time we spend. I have my own life, I don't want to give it all up for him. What is bothersome, like you said, is that he doesn't seem—based on what he said—to be in it from a commitment standpoint. For me to ask for better management and planning of that time together, and to be told that he's not willing to do that ... uhh, that reply sounds off base for where I thought we already were, commitmemt wise. That doesn't even sound like "commitment" to me, it sounds like courtesy, and he's been happy to do it before, but not now. Anyway, time will tell. On a side note, I went back and looked at one of my old threads, and you'd given me grief about asking to leave a toothbrush at his at four months. I just thought that was funny. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/509948-second-thoughts#post6096932
Redhead14 Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 So I've been feeling for a while now that, in terms of spending time with my BF, I get the scraps. He works, and is dedicated to working out, and I understand and respect all of that. But he has a habit reaching out to me to make day-of plans, and when he can't make something I invite him to, he doesn't offer an alternate time. Often, I feel like I do the heavy lifting when it comes to making sure we have time together. When we do make time, I find that I often have to wait for him, and when he does show up, he's tired or he doesn't seem like he ever wants to do anything. Anyway, I finally expressed that to him last night—that I don't think it's intentional on his part, but that when he changes plans or won't make plans, that I feel like I'm a low priority for him, and that it would make me feel more cared for and respected if we could just be a little more communicative about plans and time. I wasn't expecting his reaction. He got upset, said he felt bad about making me feel bad, and then kind of shut down (ugh). After a long silence, he admitted that he was being selfish, but that he was feeling freaked out and couldn't agree to that level of commitment; that he'd be afraid he wouldn't be able to keep plans or set aside time for me, and that he'd disappoint me and he doesn't want to upset me. Clearly, not what I wanted to hear, but I told him I appreciated his honesty (about feeling freaked out). I assured him I wasn't asking for some next-level sh*t, and that I was just telling him that it would help me to feel secure about our relationship if we were more communicative. For example, I have a one-and-a-half hour long commute to work (mostly by train), so if we're going to spend a weeknight together, I've asked that we plan just one day ahead, so that I can be sure to bring overnight stuff with me and a change of clothes (he also said he's not ready for me to leave more than a toothbrush at his place). He wasn't even able to promise that. He kept saying that he's freaked out, that he feels we're moving too fast, that he doesn't know what he wants, and that he needed time to think about it. I took that as my cue to leave him be, and I told him I'd wait to hear from him. I went over to a friend's house after that, to talk and process and cry—I really thought that was it for us, or that it'd be a few days before I heard from him, at least. So imagine my surprise when he texted me around 11:00, asking if I was there. I said yes, and he started texting an apology, but then thought better of it and called. He said he was sorry for being an ass, that he was sorry for making me feel bad, and that we'd "work it out." Phew, what an emotional roller coaster! We need to have a longer convo about it, obviously. It was late when he called, and we were both tired and I had been talking at that point for like three hours straight. At first I was relieved, but now I'm wondering how to proceed. I feel like a wait and see approach will be best. I'm not expecting perfection from him (and told him that), but at the same time, I don't want to be with someone who isn't all-in. How long do you give a guy to figure out how he feels? Edited to add: I have felt like this has been the truth of the matter for some time, which is why I waited so long to say anything—I really didn't want to know the answer. Also, I have been reading today on LS about other women whose men have said similar things to them recently, and so ofter the outcome is the same—the men just weren't in it enough, not invested enough. Is that what's happening here? He says we'll work it out, but will we? Will I forever be nagged by this thought that his heart's not really in this? God, relationships are hard. Yes, for now, let him demonstrate his sincerity about wanting to work it out. He knows what the issue is, it's up to him to do whats needed to resolve it. Give it some time. If he doesn't start coming through, you may need to re-evaluate the relationship.
Author losangelena Posted March 18, 2015 Author Posted March 18, 2015 anything new, losangelena? Not really. Just getting back into the swing of things. Thanks for asking. We had that fight last Tuesday, and my mom came to town on Wednesday. I'm glad she did, 'cause she was able to impart some parental wisdom into all this. I mentioned before that she had advised me to judge him on his actions going forward, and not what he boneheadedly said the other day. She met him on Saturday (this was on the books pre-fight), and liked him and said that he just seemed immature and inexperienced (yep and yep), but genuine. Anyway, everyday last week (after Tuesday), he checked in multiple times a day. When saying goodbye to my mom, he helped her to the car and gave her a hug goodbye (which was very sweet), then asked if I'd like to get together after she was gone (Sunday). I agreed, and went over to his place Sunday afternoon, where he made me dinner and did all the washing up, and we had a lot of great make-up sex, which I did not realize was a real thing until now (boy howdy). He apologized again for what he'd said last week, but I didn't feel the need to bring up the talk again, as I'm not sure it would have done any good. Also on the books pre-fight was a trip to San Francisco this weekend. After what happened last week, I was so scared to fall back into the trap of over-functioning that I was too nervous to ask him on Monday morning if he still wanted to go. I thought, "I don't want him to just say yes when he really wants to say no," so I went to work without bringing it up. That made me anxious though, because I really did need to know so I could make arrangements. Anyway, I called him Monday night and asked, and he said that yes he still wants to go and he'd take the day off work on Friday to help make it happen. Beyond that though, I haven't pushed for time together. So, things right now are fine. He's been making more of an effort, but the issue of my wanting/needing to plan ahead has not yet been put to the test. I'm going to give him some time to see what happens. I feel alright about it. I like him and am willing to give him a chance. I also did decide to go to Cancun. Bad idea? We'll see. I'll keep y'all posted.
Eighty_nine Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 I don't think going to Cancun is a bad idea. After all, he did plan it in advance! Overall I think things are on the right track- the fight may have made him realize/appreciate what he has with you. Time will tell.
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