Difficulty with Reconciliation and Trust

[Andrew123123]

Hi all. First time poster but have been lurking for a month or so while I deal with a difficult situation. Will try and keep it short. See the below.

 

I have been with my wife 7 years. Married just over 1. I am 35, she is 32. No kids

 

In December 2014 my wife told me the old she loved me but was not in love with me anymore. All the usual stuff that is common in these situations, I was not there for her enough, she had changed yada yada yada. Pretty much followed the blue print and she was right in some ways but of course you should try and work through these things before you decide to give up. Of course in early January when we separated for a week she finally disclosed she had feelings for an older married man (45) with 3 kids at work. Was hard to deal with as we had been actually trying for a child up until a month prior to this. It was an emotional affair (apparently) but who knows. He definitely pursed her hard and she was not completely happy. I can accept that. We had a good talk towards the end of our break and she admitted the feelings though she maintains to this day nothing physical ever happened. We agreed to go our separate day and the next day I started divorce proceedings. He had apparently left his wife just before New Years and was ready to go.

 

The next day after I got pretty diplomatic about the whole things I started with divorce proceedings. Nothing nasty but had to go the business way as such, we have a house together with quite a lot of equity and a bit to work through. She then emailed saying she was making the biggest mistake of her life and if I took her back could we go to marriage counselling. After a few hours of talking face to face I agreed and she moved back in (she had been staying with her mum for a week on our separation).

 

We have now been in marriage counselling for a few months. It has gone well and we are communicating very well. We have made love at least 5-6 times and we seem a lot closer generally. However there has been some set backs. She went on a business trip and I did find out she had taken a few photos with just her and this guy she had the emotional affair with. He is apparently back with his wife (who he has left before). They work together which is tough. And she has a really good job and I don't want to her to lose that. But it obviously grates. I pretty much broke up with her again when found the pictures but she talked me round and even spoke to her mum about it, said there was nothing that happened, but it was a mistake and she still finds it a bit tough as feelings don't lie. Anyway the list of positives and negatives since we reconciled are below:

 

Positives

 

She has said she loves me

We are intimate and have had some very close times (anniversary/trips away)

 

She wants to try for kids and we visited a fertility clinic

 

I have told her numerous times due to my insecurities that is she still really wants the guy to just go to him. I would rather end it now that carry on in this vein if she is struggling. She refuses to and says she loves me.

 

She might have to go overseas for 6 months and my work will let me work remotely too and she insists I go.

 

She said she is 100% committed and shows it a lot of the time.

 

The Negatives

 

I struggle to trust her now. And I get angry.

 

I still feel she has not told me the true story

 

I refuse to get access to all her email/phone accounts. It bothers me but I guess anyone can cover anything up.

 

I don't feel like she is sometimes telling the truth but she is hard to read. Always have been.

 

While we seem happier than we ever been but some of the time she still seems distance and I get anxious.

 

Conclusion - I d love the girl but it seems like such hard work to go through this. I want to make it work and feel there is a lot of progress but how long does it normally take for complete trust to come back? Very hard time and sometimes I feel it would be easier if we just parted. But then the good times make me realise how great we can be together. She has also stated her intimacy has come back heaps and that the old guy had no attributes she desired more than mine, just that things were so bad for her that it made her question everything. The older business man from that corporate environment obviously baited her and she took it. And also wanted to. Any advice appreciated. I am 80% there but also 20% suspect. She says all the right things, acts pretty much in the right way, but there is still that elephant in the room!

[Atmosphere77]

I think you're brain is overriding your heart. It's telling you what to do, which you should be thankful for.

[Andrew123123]

Thanks for reply. Yes head and heart can be a struggle between them both. It is 50/50 right now for me. I am happy at times but then not at others. Just hoping it is a time things. I noticed in my post I was quite clear enough on a few things so here is the edited post below (although very similar).

 

 

Hi all. First time poster but have been lurking for a month or so while I deal with a difficult situation. Will try and keep it short. See the below.

 

I have been with my wife 7 years. Married just over 1. I am 35, she is 32. No kids

 

In December 2014 my wife told me the old she loved me but was not in love with me anymore. All the usual stuff that is common in these situations, I was not there for her enough, she had changed yada yada yada. Pretty much followed the blue print and she was right in some ways but of course you should try and work through these things before you decide to give up and let it drag on. Of course in early January when we separated for a week she finally disclosed she had feelings for an older married man (45) with 3 kids at work. Was hard to deal with as we had been actually trying for a child up until a month prior to this. It was an emotional affair (apparently) but who knows. He definitely pursed her hard and she was not completely happy with us so bit, a lot of discussion between each of them on how unhappy they both were. I can accept that although I obviously don't like it. We had a good talk towards the end of our one week break and she admitted the feelings though she maintains to this day nothing physical ever happened. We agreed to go our separate ways that night and the next day I started divorce proceedings. He had apparently left his wife just before New Years and was ready to go. She says she was not going to shack up with him but I think we both know she was.

 

The next day after I got pretty diplomatic about the whole thing and I started with divorce proceedings, booked lawyer, discussed halving of our accounts and investments. Nothing nasty but had to go the business way as such, we have a house together with quite a lot of equity and a bit to work through. She then emailed me saying she was making the biggest mistake of her life and if I took her back could we go to marriage counselling which I had previously suggested but she declined . After a few hours of talking face to face I agreed and she moved back in (she had been staying with her mum for the week on our separation).

 

We have now been in marriage counselling for a few months. It has gone well and we are communicating very well which was what we lacked. Yes I was always playing sport and drinking with mates but she has realised she was an enabler as well as she did not want to be a nagging wife (like her mum is) and could not communicate effectively her unhappiness. We have made love at least 5-6 times since and we seem a lot closer generally. Sex was never the problem, since we were trying for kids it was very regular too up until late December but being typical male I kind of thought if that side of things was all good then everything must be. However there has been some set backs. She went on a business trip and I did find out she had taken a few photos with just her and this guy she had the emotional affair with. He is apparently back with his wife (who he has left before). They work together which is tough. And she has a really good job and I don't want to her to lose that. But it obviously grates on me. I pretty much broke up with her again when I found the pictures but she talked me round and even spoke to her mum about it, said there was nothing that happened, but it was a mistake. She still finds it a bit tough as feelings don't lie. Anyway the list of positives and negatives since we reconciled are below:

 

Positives

 

She has said she loves me again numerous times / due to her feeling closer to me since we are making a big effort with the counselling

 

We are intimate and have had some very close times (anniversary/trips away)

 

She wants to try for kids and we visited a fertility clinic just yesterday. Before this I even stated if she was 100% she wanted to take that step but she 100% YES.

 

I have told her numerous times due to my insecurities that if is she still really wants the guy to just go to him. I would rather end it now that carry on in this vein if she is struggling. She refuses to and says she loves me and I am definitely who she wants. All very lovely! But of course given what happened a little hard to swallow.

 

She might have to go overseas for 6 months and my work will let me work remotely too and she insists I go with her. She talks about our future a lot which I guess is positive.

 

She said she is 100% committed and shows it a lot of the time.

 

The Negatives

 

I struggle to trust her now. And I get angry. Brain works in overtime. I work from home a lot and without a lot of human stimulus during the day your mind can work overtime.

 

I still feel she has not told me the full/true story which wears on me.

 

I refuse to get access to all her email/phone accounts as I am just not wired that way. It bothers me of course but I guess anyone can cover anything up so I wonder if it would make any difference if I made that request.

 

I don't feel like she is sometimes telling the truth but she is hard to read. Always has been. I want full disclosure, I am 35 and don't want to waste anytime if I need to get on with things but she repeatabley says she has told me everything.

 

While we seem happier than we ever been sometimes, there are those times she still seems distant and I get anxious.

 

Conclusion - I do really love the girl, she is the love of my life especially now that I got the jolt of almost losing her. But it also seems like such hard work to go through this. I want to make it work and feel there is a lot of progress but how long does it normally take for complete trust to come back? Very hard times currently and sometimes I feel it would be easier if we just parted. But then the good times make me realise how great we can be together. She has also stated her intimacy has come back heaps and that the old guy had no attributes she desired more than mine, just that things were so bad for her that it made her question everything. The older business man from that corporate environment obviously baited her and she took it. And also wanted to. Any advice appreciated. I am 80% there but also 20% suspect. She says all the right things, acts pretty much in the right way, but there is still that elephant in the room!

[Friskyone4u]

That list of negatives is all bad. She refuses to be transparent with you , works and travels with her OM , and you are just supposed to trust her?? I don't think so.

And please forget what she is telling her. "Mum". That means nothing .

Your first move is to tell the wife of OM what is going on. One of two things will happen. He will either be trying to save his ass and marriage and want nothing to do with your wife, or she will throw him out and he may pursue your wife again. Either one of these is better than limbo.

And anything you read will tell you her job has to go. Having her with her boyfriend 8-10 hours a day is not the formula for reconciliation

Right now you know nothing. You do not know if they had sex, you do not know how much they are still communicating and your wife apparently is just fine with that .

That is called cake eating. She wants the security of her married life and the freedom to maintain a relationship with another man and keep you clueless .

Unless younchange the dynamic you are setting yourself up for a lot of hurt.

Buy a VAR and put it in her car. That will tell you if she is still socializing with him inappropriately . But the other red flags are screaming .

[idoltree]

Andrew, go read the survivinginfidelity forums.

 

I can't understand why a woman who knew an emotional affair was wrong, and that leaving you was "the biggest mistake of her life" would then go on a business trip with the guy she had the affair with and take photos together. She clearly has zero empathy for you and how you might view those photos. That does not compute as someone who is serious about reconciling.

 

I worry that she sees you as a safety net, and him as the exciting "can't quite have him" option. He leaves his wife and goes back to his wife, and your gal has figured out he's not going to leave permanently for her. So she wants you to provide her the safe family option, since if he won't leave for her then she'll be alone, and she doesn't want to be alone. I think that's why she's come back, not because she is devoted to you.

 

A spouse who is serious about reconciling would have total transparency, and the common sense not to take friendzies pictures on a business trip with the guy she cheated with. She'd be looking for a new job, even if she currently had a good one, because her marriage was on the line. She'd give you passwords and let you poke around her accounts to put your mind at ease.

 

Also, given that they've gone on business trips together, are you 100% certain this was just an emotional affair? You are not going to get the answer from her, you need to get it from your instincts. Think about what makes sense versus what you want to believe. She left you for him. Do you really think that these two remained chaste while traveling together away from their spouses?

 

Really think this one through - especially about having a child. Both of you seem to have a romantic fantasy that the child will bring you together and your problems will disappear. That will not happen. If you have existing problems, adding a baby to the mix is going to make the problems worse.

 

Right now, your gut is telling you not to trust her, and I think you should listen to it. In your position, I'd be unable to trust that any baby was absolutely fathered by me, and I'd be unable to trust that she wouldn't up and leave with the baby after reality sinks in that the disney fantasy in her head isn't going to happen.

[No Limit]

Get rid of her right now. The only reason why she changed her mind was when MM blocked off and her biological clock is ticking. Run as fast as you can!

[Andrew123123]

Thank you for all your comments. I really appreciate it.

 

Just to point out a couple of things:

 

1 - She doesn't solely work and travel with him per se. Her office has around 900 people in it. She did go away for a conference with about 20 people but yes the pictures bothered me massively. They were not sordid or anything but still not good.

 

2 - He did leave his wife for her. And was apparently gutted when she came back to me after the official separation that night. He then chose to go back to his wife after we had reconciled. Pretty sure he would jump and the chance to separate from his wife and shack up with mine.

 

Looking forward to some more replies but I do understand I may have to make some very hard decisions very soon.

[coryreply]

Hi Andrew. I'm really sorry you're going through this. It's painful, not fair, all of that. You're in my prayers today.

 

I'm glad to hear you two are in marriage counseling. Your marriage is definitely worth fighting for, even after what you've been through. Let me ask you, in the presence of your counselor, have you voiced your concern that she's not telling you the whole truth?

[Andrew123123]

Thank you for the feedback and thoughts

 

Not really although we have broached it. We have another session in a week so will discuss then.

 

Really been quite a whirlwind. Had a good talk this morning and I really laid it on the line. She is staying home from work today so we will talk more and see where we go from here

[sandylee1]

OP

 

I'm sorry but I think you are plan B for her. Who knows whether or not he left his wife. I think the fact he didn't leave is the reason she wants to try again.

 

You need honesty from her

How long did it go on ?

How did it start?

Where apart from work did they meet up?

 

Going from ILYBINILWY to i want to come back and I love you in a short space of time is worrying.

 

Sit her down ask for the entire truth and tell her if you find out she is lying, it's over.

 

Tell her you've booked a polygraph for the next day. See how she reacts.

 

Please tell the other betrayed spouse.

[sandylee1]

I would also put any plans to have a child right now on hold. This will be further ties to her if you get divorced.

 

If she isn't truly IN LOVE with you like she first indicated, it's only a matter of time that this will happen again and you'll be wishing you left years ago.

[sandylee1]

Thank you for all your comments. I really appreciate it.

 

Just to point out a couple of things:

 

 

2 - He did leave his wife for her. And was apparently gutted when she came back to me after the official separation that night. He then chose to go back to his wife after we had reconciled. Pretty sure he would jump and the chance to separate from his wife and shack up with mine.

 

 

Can you verify this? I hope you are not taking your wife's word that this happened. You need to talk to his wife and find out. She may well have more information.

 

Trust is huge in a marriage. I don't think she loves you like she should.

[idoltree]

Going from ILYBINILWY to i want to come back and I love you in a short space of time is worrying.

 

I'm sorry but I think you are plan B for her. Who knows whether or not he left his wife. I think the fact he didn't leave is the reason she wants to try again.

I agree. His source for what happened is his wife, who is of course going to want to come out looking as good as possible. Unless he has a way to verify it, the more likely story is married man wouldn't leave for her, or did leave but then chose to go back to his wife. And then OP's wife was left scrambling, since she doesn't want to be alone.

 

Sit her down ask for the entire truth and tell her if you find out she is lying, it's over.

 

Tell her you've booked a polygraph for the next day. See how she reacts.

Agree. A cheater tends to trickle truth, and only when they need to. I simply can't believe his wife left him for this guy, went on business trips away from both spouses together (whether other coworkers were on the trip is irrelevant), and it stayed innocent. That makes zero common sense.

 

I don't think she loves you like she should.

and/or she's an intensely selfish person who uses people in order to get her needs met.

 

Currently, her need is for OP to take her back and to have a baby. OP is playing a dangerous game with his heart, finances, and 19 years of freedom if he gets her pregnant.

 

Babymaking should be off the table for now. It is selfish to choose to bring a child into an unstable relationship, and it's one more clue that OP's wife is selfish. Wanting a baby is all about her wanting one, not about the good and stable childhood she can provide for it.

Edited March 12, 2015 by idoltree

[Andrew123123]

Hi all

 

Thanks for your responses. Really good to get the thoughts of people with no vested interested per say as people in the relationships obviously have certain bias. To answer some of the questions (but do remember a lot of this is her own words) so a grain of salt is needed

 

“How long did it go on for and when did it start” – She started talking to him on breaks at work from around August 2014 apparently. Conversation turned to some of the issues with their respective spouses as it went on. And so on and so on. I think we all know the drill with these types of things. She said she started having feelings for him late November in that attraction kind of way. Like it or not I was too busy doing my own thing and being pretty distant. No excuse for her to do what she did, I know that. I even met the guy a few times in December as was dragged round to work Christmas functions! I am not amazing or anything but very hard to understand what the attraction was, but then I know it is mainly about emotional closeness with women (hope that is not too much of a generalisation). My wife is a very striking women and the guy is just….BLAH. But I know looks often have very little to do in things like this.

 

“Where apart from work did they meet up” – When we were on our one week break in early January 2015 they went out for a few lunches and discussed things. I am not naïve in that they were probably doing this late 2014 as well. She informed him that we were separated currently and he had left his wife too. Long story that I won’t go into but I know he had definitely left his wife. He has left her many times, even for 6 months in one period. I imagine theydiscussed the logistics of them moving forward. During this week we were still talking. She said she missed me and thought she may have made a mistake but I did not really bite on that. She had moved a lot of her things out etc. I refused to live for too long in limbo so said if you are not back in our family home by Monday night and willing to work on things I will begin divorce proceedings, simple as that. She came round on Monday night to talk and said she still did not want to make a decision, so I made it easy for her and said we were over as I was not going to wait around. That was it, next morning I booked a lawyer.Apparently she spent the next morning at work talking to her mum and brother and had a mini break down at work. And that is when she contacted me wanting to come back and seek professional marriage therapy like I had previously suggested. He apparently went back to his wife and 3 kids about 4 days later. Poor lady

 

I have told her if I find out about any more lies I will jump. It is not like I do not have options either. I am not young no, but 35 is not over the hill. She offered to give me all her email passwords and access to phone but I declined. I just don’t see the point, things can be hidden, new address made, messages deleted. Maybe I am an idiot for not taking her up on this, but I do not want to live that way.

 

Nothing of our 8 years together would indicate my wife is a very selfish person. She has given a huge amount of her life to me and to us and she is naturally a very caring person. However, her recent actions obviously do contradict this I know. She mentioned yesterday when she was having the feelings for someone else she just could not think clearly. Said she was so convinced there were things I could not change and she lost the confidence she had with us. Crazy thing is leading up until our break we were having the best sex we ever had. But obviously her emotions were somewhere else which makes it hard to deal with and I guess showed me that good sex does not equal good relationship like some of my mates say. Her work also identified through tests at work that she has a lack of empathy for others. Not sure if that fits in anywhere.

 

I was ready to walk yesterday. Maybe I should of I don’t know. It is very tough when you have so much history with someone and there is a lot of good stuff there. We are actually in some ways better right now than we were when we were married a year ago. But the trust stuff is quite taxing. If I find out anything more she has hidden from me that is unsavoury I will probably go over the edge, meaning it is time to ring the lawyer again.

 

Another thing I forgot to mention that happened a few days ago. The guy bought her an expensive necklace before Christmas. My wife has a lot of nice things but I noticed this necklace and asked where she got it and she immediately said it was from the guy. I said you know it has to go don’t you and she said yes. So I flushed it down the toilet! I kind of wish I had sold it now though!

[lolablue17]

I can't advice you about reconciliation. These are your feelings, Your life. I just want to comment about technical stuff (like facts and chances).

 

1. If you've told your story without the fact that she left you for him and he left his wife I would tell you that 95% chances that in was very much physical. But when you say they both wanted to divorce and to be together - It became 100% that they had sex. Take it as one of your considerations to decide.

 

2. I'll tell you what happened - She had an affair (a full one) and her head was spinning and made her making a bad decision. She broke it all and now (after few more physical encounters) she realized her mistake.

She wants to have a baby because she feels her love (in love) to you is not strong enough. But that is the worst reason exists in the world to have a baby.

 

She decided to be with you "now" and she has no problem to lie in order to get what she wants. But it may be temporary. You'll see... She will make more "biggests mistakes of her life" in the future, i guess in the next 2-4 years.

 

If you want to reconcile ask for the truth first. tell her that you don't belive her. That you can forgive infidelity but not lies (even if its not right), and you're leaving her unless she is giving you the full truth. If she insists, I can assure you she is LYING! A woman and a man don't ruin marriage and a family just for an emotional affair.

[Andrew123123]

Thanks for the honest words. If she had an affair it would have had to have been while we were having a bunch of unprotected sex (her taking her temperature daily) in the hope of a baby (we were trying from June) 2014). I guess that is hard for me to fathom how someone could be that messed up if it did happen.

 

She swears nothing physical ever happened and it ever got to that stage. So I know what her answer will be if I was to ask her again. I think when we first reconciled I made the mistake of saying to her that if it had got physical please be honest and lets not carry on as it was a deal breaker for me. Was probably the wrong way to go about it but it was an emotional reunion.

 

Tough situation. Things are going well currently. But it is the trust thing that lingers. I really don't know what to do. I want her in my life as I obviously do love the girl but if she has turned into a lying deceitful individual then it is not the same girl obviously. I guess I need a bit more time to decide what is best for me and whether I can really deal with it all moving forward. Jeez life throws some curve balls at times.

 

Once again thanks for your comments

[idoltree]

She informed him that we were separated currently and he had left his wife too. Long story that I won’t go into but I know he had definitely left his wife. He has left her many times, even for 6 months in one period. I imagine they discussed the logistics of them moving forward.

 

They both happened to leave their spouses at the same time? So then they discussed what to do moving forward?

 

Andrew, these two talked about the details of their lives and relationships all of the time. It could not be coincidental that they had both left their spouses at the same time. Two coworkers discussing their relationship problems and falling into an emotional affair do not both end up leaving their spouses without planning to do so together.

 

I feel like she's not being forthcoming with you if she is leaving out mutual planning.

 

I refused to live for too long in limbo so said if you are not back in our family home by Monday night and willing to work on things I will begin divorce proceedings, simple as that. She came round on Monday night to talk and said she still did not want to make a decision, so I made it easy for her and said we were over as I was not going to wait around. That was it, next morning I booked a lawyer.

Beautiful! Just beautiful on your part. If only others would have this fortitude.

 

Apparently she spent the next morning at work talking to her mum and brother and had a mini break down at work. And that is when she contacted me wanting to come back and seek professional marriage therapy like I had previously suggested.

It sounds like she came back because she was scared and her family told her she was being foolish. I don't know that this equates to being in love with you and wanting things to work.

 

He apparently went back to his wife and 3 kids about 4 days later. Poor lady.

Poor you, too. No one deserves to be treated like this.

 

I have told her if I find out about any more lies I will jump. It is not like I do not have options either. I am not young no, but 35 is not over the hill. She offered to give me all her email passwords and access to phone but I declined. I just don’t see the point, things can be hidden, new address made, messages deleted. Maybe I am an idiot for not taking her up on this, but I do not want to live that way.

At least she offered. That's good.

 

Nothing of our 8 years together would indicate my wife is a very selfish person. She has given a huge amount of her life to me and to us and she is naturally a very caring person. However, her recent actions obviously do contradict this I know.

Someone can be caring and immature.

 

She mentioned yesterday when she was having the feelings for someone else she just could not think clearly.

This is immaturity, and perhaps a fear of intimacy.

 

Said she was so convinced there were things I could not change and she lost the confidence she had with us. Crazy thing is leading up until our break we were having the best sex we ever had. But obviously her emotions were somewhere else which makes it hard to deal with and I guess showed me that good sex does not equal good relationship like some of my mates say.

When someone is justifying breaking up a relationship, they build up the negative qualities of the person that they are leaving so that they can be sure they are making the right decision by leaving. She wanted to leave you for the other guy, so she was making a case for herself. She ignored the good things about being with you, only focusing on the bad. That's what gave her the strength to leave.

 

Isn't it frightening that she was doing all of this and you had no idea? Adults talk to one another about issues in the relationship before deciding to leave, don't they?

 

And any change in your sex life coupled with an emotional affair points to the affair being more than emotional.

 

Her work also identified through tests at work that she has a lack of empathy for others. Not sure if that fits in anywhere.

Say more, Andrew. Why would her work be identifying this about her? Was she in trouble and so they did an assessment?

 

A lack of empathy is a frightening thing. Someone who lacks empathy is not going to be a good mother, that's for sure.

 

I was ready to walk yesterday. Maybe I should of I don’t know. It is very tough when you have so much history with someone and there is a lot of good stuff there. We are actually in some ways better right now than we were when we were married a year ago.

You've only been married a year and she's already left you. Andrew, I do think signs may be pointing to her not being who you think she is, but I don't know you or her so I can't say for sure.

 

Are you generally an easygoing guy who tries to keep her happy? If so, I wonder how much you've wanted to see her as the version of her who is worthy of your love as opposed to who she is. Is this possible?

 

Another thing I forgot to mention that happened a few days ago. The guy bought her an expensive necklace before Christmas. My wife has a lot of nice things but I noticed this necklace and asked where she got it and she immediately said it was from the guy. I said you know it has to go don’t you and she said yes. So I flushed it down the toilet! I kind of wish I had sold it now though!

You should have asked her to get rid of it and observed what she did.

 

If you reconciled, why had she not already gotten rid of the necklace? Why did she still have it?

 

Also, a man in an emotional affair does not buy an expensive necklace for his affair partner. A man in a physical affair does buy trinkets like this.

 

If she had an affair it would have had to have been while we were having a bunch of unprotected sex (her taking her temperature daily) in the hope of a baby (we were trying from June) 2014). I guess that is hard for me to fathom how someone could be that messed up if it did happen.

Those would be the actions of someone who lacked empathy, right?

 

I am angry for you. If she was cheating on you, which, in my opinion, she was, she risked your health and fertility by having unprotected sex with you.

 

Tough situation. Things are going well currently. But it is the trust thing that lingers. I really don't know what to do. I want her in my life as I obviously do love the girl but if she has turned into a lying deceitful individual then it is not the same girl obviously. I guess I need a bit more time to decide what is best for me and whether I can really deal with it all moving forward. Jeez life throws some curve balls at times.

Very balanced view, Andrew. Take time and don't rush. But the one thing to do during this period where you are figuring things out for yourself is to either abstain from sex with her or wear condoms that she cannot tamper with. Do not risk having a child with her when you're unsure if she is lying to you, and if she does indeed lack empathy and you'd just been unable to see it. Do not do that to yourself.

 

Risk bringing a child into the world when you are in a stable relationship. The child doesn't have a choice about being born, and it would be vastly unfair to have a child whose parents were unstable, unhappy, and/or likely to split up in the near future.

 

If your wife has been fooling you about her character, her desire for a child may be fully or partially motivated by making sure that you can't leave her. Do not risk that right now.

 

As a last overall comment, things aren't adding up for me in reading your story. It must be so confusing to be you right now. I don't envy you. And obviously these are just my thoughts, but I hope that you find them helpful.

[Andrew123123]

Thanks so much for the response. Clear and concise. To answer some of the points.

 

We came back from overseas after she dropped those famous words. She wanted us to be home to work through things and made a list of what she was really unhappy with. Made the mistake of accepting she did not want to see a councillor with me. We tried to co-exist but the elephant in the room was too much for me and I became pretty unbearable. Did not know about her feelings for someone else at the time. She left to go to her mums four days after we got home and was away for a week until we reconciled

 

In regards to her mum and brother talking to her, yes perhaps. However it was after I sent her some photos on email I did not particularly want (for obvious reasons) and asked her to begin the process of removing my family surname as I did not want to be associated with all the nonsense anymore she came back with the message that she was making a huge mistake giving up on us. She said the photos jolted her into the reality of all the great times in our 8 years and that she finally remembered the love she had for me before. I only sent them to her to get them off my computer and I thought she might like them. The day after we officially broken up I was very accepting of it all and just wanted to move on, sell the house etc.

 

Yeah bugger snooping around in her emails and what not. They can get round that I am sure. One way or another you always find out in the end.

 

I had seen signs of the issues when I look back. She had even prior to marriage told me of things she was not happy with. Like I was always playing sport and not doing things with her. And out late with boys and failing to be in contact. I have no illusions I was perfect. Actually at times I was pretty bad. So she said towards the end of the year she just gave up and starting planning things around just her and it hurt her that I did not seem to care. We have addressed this in the counselling. I am an only child, work alone a lot in a very good but relatively stress free job and this caused some of my actions. Very interesting to actually see that how you were brought up does have an impact on your actions as an adult even when you can not really understand why you are the way you are. Quite fascinating.

 

Who knows re the sex. She is not a hugely sexual person so it was quite a nice surprise at the time! Trying for a baby is obviously quite fun too. She did not get pregnant quickly and it had a massive effect on her. She became very disillusioned. She does not really like other peoples kids or even other peoples dogs for that matter! Another reason why the guy she was seeing who had 3 kids was such a shock.

 

No trouble at work. Opposite really in that she was identified as a very high performer and they like to conduct personality LSI tests to see what areas they can get better to further themselves. She has always had a bit of a lack of empathy. Not to me but to others she does not really care about. She can be very emotional, but emotion and empathy are two different things. The other day she rushed home from work to be with me for the afternoon as I had to visit my auntie who is dying of cancer and it was all a bit much for me. I thought that was a nice gesture on her part.

 

Yes only married a year but together for 8 total. Owned a house for 5 etc. She really pushed for marriage long before. I did not want to marry her earlier not because I did not love her enough. I just don't really care about it, to me its the person not the certificate. In any case we had a fantastic (and rather expensive) wedding. She has said it was the happiest day she could ever imagine. 60-0 in bugger all time wasn't it!

 

Yeah I am pretty easy going. Bit of a talker as my posts are probably showing! But also lazy at times in my personal life. Love to just chill and watch sport. She is more into activities and going exciting things. Since we have reconciled we have done a lot of this and it has really opened my eyes that there are a lot of other things to experience in life. Our current relationship in that regard is a lot better because of it. Obviously not the main issue now though.

 

Understand re the necklace but he probably has a lot of money and if he was trying to convince her to leave why not buy for her? (even though it is a jerk thing to do from my perspective). In any case she had no issues with me flushing it down the toilet. When I told her what I had done she actually laughed.

 

She is such an organised health conscious person that if she did risk my health due to a physical affair I would not even say that was a lack empathy, I would almost put it down as borderline psychotic behaviour.

 

My wife is a very striking attractive women. She is in great shape, has a very good job (on parity with my remuneration). If she really did not want things to really work I struggle to see why she would want to have a child and work on things with me. She could easily get someone else if loneliness was her major concern. On the risk of sounding like a complete tool and arrogant (and please understand in person the last thing I am is arrogant) but I am a decent looking in shape guy for my age with a good job, a lot of friends and and very caring/honest/relaxed demeanour so am probably in a similar boat. Jeez that sounds awful but I guess what I am trying to say is I do not want to waste too much time moving on if it all folds. I want a child too and am 35 so want to be young enough to actually enjoy their life. It is a really difficult thing facing a future without the person that for near on 8 years you were confident you would spend the rest of your life too.

 

Thanks for the kind words, it is a hard time but I have grown pretty tough about it to be honest. I was very hurt at the time (and still am) but it is a different type of hurt to be honest. More annoyance now that all this had to happen. No one to blame but if she had told me mid 2014 that she was losing closeness to me because of my lack of effort in our relationship I would have really taken notice and made the changes I have done after our recent reconciliation. And I get the feeling none of this would have happened. Who knows maybe it still would of. It is a tough time but I am pretty good and dealing. And all this communication on here helps. I do take some of it with a grain of salt as obviously there are a lot of other details in 8 years (both good and bad) that I just can't or don't have the time to go into. But I d value everyone that takes the time to put their input in. Thank you.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Andrew123123

[lolablue17]

1. She wants both worlds. To enjoy marriage with you, and keeping her contact with OM as a nice ego boost. She wants YOU to be the only one who pays the price for HER "biggest mistake of her life".

 

Did she make a mistake? well, mistakes cost a price. If she really was remorseful she would have quit her job in order to protect you from being hurt and insecure and to keep her marriage safe.

 

2. She made "the biggest mistake of her life!" fine, Ok, it can happen... Now, after that she took photo's with this guy one on one at a business trip. How can you explain this? when words and actions don't fit - I belive the actions.

 

Being constantly so close to OM, the man "she has feelings for" is the No 1 mistake after infidelity. So in my eyes it's not just one mistake she made once, but many mistakes she's making now.

 

You can get a way with her first infidelity, you're not the one to be blamed for. But from now on It's only your fault - to give her a free pass to keep daily contact with OM, a man she admits she still has feelings for- It's a huge red flag. Next crisis is on you, dude...

 

3. She swore "nothing physical happened". and right after that she lied to you about the pics with the OM and tried to hid it from you. So for me, her word means nothing. She did and will definitely lie to get her interests. to lie after you sware and promise to never lie, is much worse than the first infidelity.

 

I trust only evidences, and reasonable logic - You have no evidence that nothing has happend there, yet any reasonable logic just can't buy that story that nothing has happened. I know hundreds of "Nothing physical has happened" stories only from LS about, and almost 100% of them (i say almost 100% just to be polite) turned into "a lot of physical has happened".

 

If I want to buy a car and i want the seller to keep the car for me I have to commit by putting some money in advance just to prove i'm serious.

 

Your wife has loudly proven that she is definitely not serious and she can raise the knife ruin your marriage in a second. So now when she says she is serious, what does she put on the table? What is she willing to sacrifice? NOTHING! She doesn't want to pay anything and it's a big big clue that she is NOT SERIOUS AT ALL.

 

You must put her under test and probation period. The test is - quitting her job and full 100% NC with OM. If she agrees, well, it's a good start to show you that she is serious.

 

How can you even compare love and marriage to a "comfort in work"? Building a family is the most important thing, and to keeping a good job is luxury. It's not on the same level.

Edited March 13, 2015 by lolablue17

[idoltree]

Andrew, your most recent post shows me that you are placing your energy on defending your wife and her character. That tells me that you are invested in working things through, which means you will not fully open your eyes to her. That is your choice and it is your life.

 

Stop justifying her cheating by saying you were neglectful. Yes, you could have done better. But in adult relationships, someone who has a neglectful partner addresses the issues without looking for love outside of the marriage. They communicate about the issue with their partner and give them a chance to solve it. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is an excuse for a cheater to cheat. If she was that unhappy, she could have left without another guy in the wings, but she chose to cheat instead of handling things in an above the board manner.

 

I do think that there was much more to the affair than your wife has owned up to, and I agree with lolablue that she is not acting in ways that show she prioritizes you and your marriage over the other man.

 

So what if she laughed when you flushed the necklace? My point is that she came back to you begging and supposedly remorseful, yet she keeps a trinket that the other man bought her? That doesn't point towards a remorseful person who is dedicating herself to her husband, realizes how much she has hurt him (empathy), and is ridding herself of all reminders and ties to "the biggest mistake of her life." And as lolablue said, what is she doing staying in her job, seeing the OM every day, and to make matters worse, taking pictures with him while she's away from home without you? Those actions are selfish and lacking in empathy for you. But, to you, she's the most caring person in the world. So which is it? Is it possible that you are invested and have rose colored glasses firmly planted on your face because you'd rather do that than have to see her as she is and then make a choice to be alone?

 

I don't know her or you, so I can't see either way, but I do observe a man who perhaps isn't open to seeing whether there is something there he'd rather not have to deal with. The stakes are extremely high for you and your future, so I'd like you to try to be as objective as possible and at least consider that things are not as you'd prefer them to be. There is absolutely no harm in remaining skeptical to protect yourself after you have been left and cheated on. There is significant possible harm in abandoning skepticism in order to avoid the possibility of further emotional pain.

 

If she really did not want things to really work I struggle to see why she would want to have a child and work on things with me

Well, the obvious cynical view is that wanting a baby with you is not about true love, and instead points to you being the safety option for her. She does have a biological clock and it wouldn't be easy to find a guy who would be a stable provider and a baby daddy to her. She could probably find the baby daddy quite easily, but then she'd be a single mom. And it takes time to find a stable provider, since you can't rush into that. So, with the clock ticking, and knowing that you are a good man who will try to see the best in her and sacrifice for her, it may be about taking advantage of you to get the family that she wants. And once she has it, and has you on the hook financially for the next 19 years, her dedication and loyalty may become an issue.

 

Again, this is the cynical view that you don't seem to let yourself see as a possible driving force for wanting a child with you. Maybe it isn't true, but given the high stakes of the choice to have a child and that she's chosen to be unfaithful to you, you need to open your eyes to it and take the time necessary to rule it in or rule it out. And it has nothing to do with how wonderful you are or how attractive you are and everything to do with her loyalty and character and whether she's capable of using people to achieve her selfish desires.

 

Again, your life, your choices. But creating a new person means that new person is subject to the life that you bring him/her into. It's not just about what you or your wife want anymore, because a child isn't a doll or a shiny pretty trinket. It is a human life who will be shaped by the conditions of his or her childhood. So what should be prioritized is not what you or your wife want, it should be about what life you can bring that child into. Stability is so important for a child's healthy emotional development.

 

I feel that you may be viewing a child from a romantic standpoint, where even if your wife has cheated, once you have a baby together she will be totally dedicated to you. Just as she is likely viewing a child as a safety mechanism to keeping you in her life, I think you are viewing a child the same way. Again, a child isn't a toy that is going to hold two people together and create a happy future. I am scared that you didn't even acknowledge that you may want to hold off of trying to have a child with her to assess whether your marriage has the legs to continue, which is dependent on her emotional maturity and loyalty. Both of those are factors that, to me, are still up in the air.

 

Logically, there is not much to be lost in delaying a decision about having a child with her. There is much to be lost by having a child with her when she is not stable or truly dedicated to you. And time and consistency are the only things that can prove her intentions to you. Once she becomes pregnant, the choice is made for you. That is why I'd like you to delay having a child, and take action to ensure you cannot impregnate her at this time.

 

Perhaps there are some men on this board who were like you once, and went ahead and had a child or children while they were in a troubled or uncertain relationship with a woman who exhibited red flags about her true character. Maybe they can tell you how that worked out for them in the long run. My guess is that it's not the fairy tale that you are hoping for.

Edited March 14, 2015 by idoltree

[idoltree]

To further explain myself, Andrew, I do want you to be happy. I just want you to be careful about it. The following is why I want you to pay attention and put faith in her actions, as opposed to her words.

 

When a spouse cheats, emotional and/or physical, it involves deception of their partner. Either the deception is active and the spouse is lying to the partner to keep their cover, or it is passive, where they are simply holding back information. Your wife deceived you, which is a signal that you cannot trust her verbal communication as you thought you could. You must observe her actions for something that is trustworthy information.

 

I've already described what someone who regretted her actions and wanted a future together due to truly loving the person who she wronged would act like. To me, your wife's actual actions do not meet that standard.

 

It does not make sense to me that she and the man she was emotionally cheating with did not know that the other was leaving their spouse and that it was coincidental. She says they became close by talking to one another about their frustrations regarding the relationships with their spouses, right? So it doesn't make sense that it wasn't something they planned. Why wouldn't they know each planned to leave their spouse? Why would the timing of it be coincidental?

 

It does not make sense to me that she left him and then he decided to go back to his wife. If the two of them planned to be together, which is the most simple and therefore the most likely explanation, it is more likely that she knew he would not permanently leave his wife for her and she came back to you rather than be alone. Or perhaps she found out he did not want more children given that he already has three, and she came back to you. I do not think that she left you, had the option of having the future she wanted with him, and actively chose you. She'd just left you to be with him so that doesn't make sense. What does make sense is she realized she couldn't get what she wanted from him and so she came back to you as a backup plan.

 

It doesn't make sense to me that he gave her an expensive necklace as part of an affair that was only emotional and not physical. It doesn't matter how much money he has, and I will explain why. Part of an emotional affair is the mutual denial that there is anything deceptive going on. Two people allow themselves to grow close, they share intimate details that should stay between themselves and their partners, but have not yet made the leap into physicality that confirms that something malicious is happening. As long as it stays in emotional affair territory, the two can stay in denial as long as physical lines aren't crossed. Someone in an emotional affair, half of two people presenting a front that nothing is going on, does not buy an expensive necklace for someone who is not his spouse, because that is solid evidence that his affections are toward someone other than his spouse. It is confirmation of wrong-doing and that the two of them can no longer stay in denial, like it could if it were just an emotional affair. And if they don't have to be in denial anymore, it's likely that physical affection occurred, because there would be nothing holding that back. It has to have crossed a physical line for partner-like gestures (like gift-giving expensive baubles) to happen.

 

It doesn't make sense to me that she held onto a token of her affair partner's affection after returning to you. Laughing when you flushed it does not cancel this greater concern out. She knows she has to act like he was no big deal to her if she is to keep you loyal to her. But someone who truly loved you, and wanted to prioritize your feelings like a faithful wife would, would not have held onto that necklace. That is an action of someone who has not prioritized you in her heart.

 

It doesn't make sense to me that she isn't trying to find another job to set your mind at ease about her loyalty, something that - if her actions matched her words - she should be prioritizing.

 

It doesn't make sense to me that she went on a business trip, one where you'd have no idea what she was doing, and is okay with appearing in pictures with her affair partner on social media.

 

To me, her actions and her words do not align. I think you're being trickle truthed, and she will only admit to as much as she needs to admit. Knowing the psychology and common sense behavior of cheaters, I feel that you should be prioritizing observation of her words versus her actions. Instead, it appears that you want to put the most faith in her words, aside from her urge to have a baby with you, which you are romanticizing to mean that she wants to be with you forever. Having a baby with you could also be part of a storyline that she wants to have children in her lifetime, and that being away from you was scary and uncertain. It could simply be a way to keep you in her life, which is much different from committing to you for the long haul and loving you above all others.

 

Again, if you want to be with her, I am not trying to drive you away from her. I just want you to pay attention and think critically before you make your decisions, especially as when the stakes are as high as they are.

Edited March 14, 2015 by idoltree

[Andrew123123]

Thanks for your comments Idoltree. They are very relevant. A bit of time has past since my last post and there has been a few developments.

 

The kid thing has been put on hold. For reasons very much in line with what you discussed.

 

We have had many long discussions about what happened. She may have told me everything / she may not have. I will probably never know if she has or hasn't. She swears she has but that is always going to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Both of our emotional/intimacy and love has been damaged by this. On a scale of 1-10 she rated her love a 7 and mine a 6. Mine is higher than this generally but when I think back to some of the lies it tends to plummet.

 

She is very willing to change jobs if that is what will get my trust back so we are beginning to investigate options.

 

Ultimately we have both made the decision to continue counselling and work on our marriage to get it back on track. All the issues we have had over the last few months have done a lot of damage so we will see what happens. My love/intimacy for her has been damaged by all this so it will be a case of whether I can get through the trust issue again and feel comfortable and genuinely love her and our partnership again. She has said she does love me but due to what has happened and what she did she needs it to be stronger, like it was at our wedding only a year ago.

 

I guess it is a work in progress but my eyes are fully open to the difficulties with these types of things so will see how I go. We have planned a 2 1/2 week trip to the US for some fun and relaxation so I think it will do us both good to get away from all the work stress and day to day rubbish and just relax for a bit. We are both dead tired after the whole episode.

 

One thing I have made a conscious effort to do is really start to look after me. Which means stopping smoking (I was not a smoker for years but took it up when all the S$%t hit the fan, as did she again) and have been drinking quite heavily, probably in an effort to escape reality. Smoking has been ceased and the drinks are cutting down. Exercise is recommencing and I am wanting to get into great shape again and throw myself into my work.

 

I guess it is a case of what will be will be. But if things do not improve and if I am still feeling unsettled I know in my heart of hearts I will have to make a hard decision. Some might think I am mad but I do want to work on things and see if we can survive this. We have not been to the councillor for 3 weeks so I think the session next week might be very interesting.

 

Once again thanks for all your advise