elaine567 Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Curiously, I actually disagree with some of this. The 2nd paragraph, I can get on board with to an extent. Being labelled a creep/stalker is something you can't worry about too much unless your social skills really suck. The 1st? I dunno. This idea of "men being men" and men who aren't aggressive chasers "not being men" is not one I can get behind logically. What it does is force men to fit a paradigm that not all of them can or should fit into. Now, as a man, I have tendencies towards assertiveness and I am naturally a chaser - my reserved nature mitigates that somewhat but its there. However, I understand that it doesn't behoove some guys to try and be that way. It may not work for them as well as someone else, they may experience inner conflict trying to be a certain way that goes against their own nature as individuals. Friction is good, but too much and you will f-ck yourself up trying to fit into a box. The premise of a lot of feminism nowadays was that women didn't have to be just motheres or stay at home wives, and it also meant they could express their masculine energy and take ownership, particularly where their sexuality is concerned - rather than experience sadness at not being able to live their life the way they wish to. So why exactly is it wrong for men to do similar and experience a life outside of what people expect them to do within the traditional paradigm? I'm not saying men should all be passive, but I am saying that it doesn't behoove a man to be something he's not because people think that's what he's supposed to be. Thing is men can be as passive as they like or choose to live outside what is seen as culturally normal, but they have to take the consequences of that action too on the chin. If a woman wants to be aggressive to everyone she meets, then she has to accept that her options for life may be limited, she may find it difficult to have relationships, she may find it difficult to find or sustain a job, she may even find herself in trouble with the law. Similarly if a man wants to act all passive, then women may not find him attractive, he may be overtaken by others in his work, he may find he is used by others for their own ends. Seems to me that in the same way it would be ridiculous for the aggressive woman in my first example to say "it is not fair", then men who choose to be passive cannot say that either. He can either decide to change into something more acceptable to society or he dawdles along accepting his lot or he can perpetually moan about it. Life is life, we may want it to work in other ways, but it works the way it works, despite us. If a person decides to step outside of what is considered the norm, then they have to accept the consequences. It may not be right, it may not be fair, but it is the way life tends to be. 1
Revolver Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I was raised by a strong loving father and I've never had a GF, so I always disagreed with the argument of "men not being raised by dads in single mom lead homes". In fact, it seemed like the men raised by single moms did better on average 1
LookAtThisPOst Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 But in my humble opinion, if a man stops pursuing because he doesnt wanna be labeled a "stalker", then hes no man at all. Since when does the opinion of random women matter? Because they are quick to file a restraining order against a man, that's why. So why deal with a woman who so paranoid to do such at thing?
ThaWholigan Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Thing is men can be as passive as they like or choose to live outside what is seen as culturally normal, but they have to take the consequences of that action too on the chin. Of course, any path we choose will be met with scrutiny and criticism - whether unnecessary or not. If a woman wants to be aggressive to everyone she meets, then she has to accept that her options for life may be limited, she may find it difficult to have relationships, she may find it difficult to find or sustain a job, she may even find herself in trouble with the law.That's a bit of an extreme - I doubt most women are going to be aggressive to everyone they meet so of course that would be the case. But it's more a case of not fitting the paradigm that society places upon them. They do have to face consequences of that, but where did they originate and is it really nature for all women and men to be a certain way? That's the question. Similarly if a man wants to act all passive, then women may not find him attractive, he may be overtaken by others in his work, he may find he is used by others for their own ends.As I always say - people who thrive on comfort, people who thrive on friction. I think there should be some kind of balance on the part of the individual where they embrace all parts of the whole - which means that any driven or active characteristics he possesses should be exercised as well as any passive traits he possesses. Same with women. Seems to me that in the same way it would be ridiculous for the aggressive woman in my first example to say "it is not fair", then men who choose to be passive cannot say that either. Of course it would be ridiculous, but these particular individuals in your hypothetical example are two extreme sides of the same coin. And you won't find me bemoaning the virtues of fairness when it comes to this anyway . He can either decide to change into something more acceptable to society or he dawdles along accepting his lot or he can perpetually moan about it.Sometimes though, you have to say "screw what is 'acceptable'". There are probably things that are acceptable in society that probably shouldn't be! Life is life, we may want it to work in other ways, but it works the way it works, despite us. I agree to an extent, but if we all thought like that, nothing would ever be different. If a person decides to step outside of what is considered the norm, then they have to accept the consequences. It may not be right, it may not be fair, but it is the way life tends to be.Somewhat true, but I'm not going to be the person who chooses to perpetuate that just because "that's just the way it is."
ThaWholigan Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I was raised by a strong loving father and I've never had a GF, so I always disagreed with the argument of "men not being raised by dads in single mom lead homes". In fact, it seemed like the men raised by single moms did better on average In my experience, parental influence has very little to do with attraction in most cases. My father was a ladies man, as are my brothers. I, on the other hand, not quite as much as them. There are too many variables to pin it on one thing. We're all affected by different things.
katiegrl Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Thing is men can be as passive as they like or choose to live outside what is seen as culturally normal, but they have to take the consequences of that action too on the chin. If a woman wants to be aggressive to everyone she meets, then she has to accept that her options for life may be limited, she may find it difficult to have relationships, she may find it difficult to find or sustain a job, she may even find herself in trouble with the law. Similarly if a man wants to act all passive, then women may not find him attractive, he may be overtaken by others in his work, he may find he is used by others for their own ends. Seems to me that in the same way it would be ridiculous for the aggressive woman in my first example to say "it is not fair", then men who choose to be passive cannot say that either. He can either decide to change into something more acceptable to society or he dawdles along accepting his lot or he can perpetually moan about it. Life is life, we may want it to work in other ways, but it works the way it works, despite us. If a person decides to step outside of what is considered the norm, then they have to accept the consequences. It may not be right, it may not be fair, but it is the way life tends to be. I don't think he should "change" so he is more acceptable to society. F*ck "society*....ugh. He should change so he is more acceptable to HIMSELF! As he becomes stronger and more confident, his self-esteem will increase allowing him to be bolder and stronger alleviating people from taking advantage of him and using him. Extreme passivity indicates low self-esteem and a lack of self- confidence. So he should take steps to build his confidence and self-esteem. Once he becomes happier, stronger and more confident within himself... the more people will respect him and be drawn to him. 2
fitnessfan365 Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Texting marathons with no action taken, leads directly to the friend zone or a fade. Exactly. That's why I always just cut right to the chase.
elaine567 Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Sometimes though, you have to say "screw what is 'acceptable'". There are probably things that are acceptable in society that probably shouldn't be! ... Of course, we can all rage against the norm, but society doesn't just change suddenly. It can take decades, even centuries to change. I am sure when women got the vote they thought that women would be accepted quickly into politics but it has taken decades and even today there are less women in govt. in the UK than there were in 1999, so it is by no means steady progress. Sometimes we have to accept the times we live in, we may see change in our lifetime we may not, it doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but sometimes we have to accept that it may be our great great grandchildren that reap the benefits.
elaine567 Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I don't think he should "change" so he is more acceptable to society. F*ck "society*....ugh. He should change so he is more acceptable to HIMSELF! As he becomes stronger and more confident, his self-esteem will increase allowing him to be bolder and stronger alleviating people from taking advantage of him and using him. Extreme passivity indicates low self-esteem and a lack of self- confidence. So he should take steps to build his confidence and self-esteem. Once he becomes happier, stronger and more confident within himself... the more people will respect him and be drawn to him. OK but by doing that he then becomes more acceptable to society too, no?
xxoo Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Once he becomes happier, stronger and more confident within himself... the more people will respect him and be drawn to him. I think this is key, whether the person is naturally outgoing or reserved. The strong, silent type can be extremely attractive. Strength is attractive in both genders. Some men obviously enjoy chasing women, probably because they get positive feedback (smiles, attention, sex, relationships). My husband still chases me because he likes my response.
preraph Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 It's likely men are growing more tired of having to pursue anymore as to feel they don't want to come off as a stalker as a lot of women are so easily using with when it comes to men pursuing them these days. It's this kind of accusation that have men backing off, especially after a first attempt. The ones who keep lurking and are too afraid to approach are the very ones who do come off as creepy, though. The ones who are friendly and open do not, as long as they go away after you tell them no. 2
katiegrl Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) OK but by doing that he then becomes more acceptable to society too, no? I don't think passivity or aggression have anything to do with what society deems acceptable/not acceptable. Choosing to be, or just being passive or aggressive is "subjective," with people preferring one or the other or a combinatuion of both qualities in their partner. Society encompasses a large "group" of people who share common interests and traditions, shared laws and values... Edited March 8, 2015 by katiegrl
GravityMan Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I fared better when the "chasing" wasn't too one-sided...i.e. both me and her reached out to each other in some way. What are these so called social skills men don't have? What's wrong with a little awkwardness? Isn't that human nature? Eh, there's a big difference between "a little awkwardness" and being socially inept. "A little awkwardness" every now and then is normal and happens to almost anyone. Yes, that is human nature. Most people understand that and thus aren't bothered by it...unless the "occasionally a bit awkward" guy is insecure about it. But if a person is over the age of 18-21 and is socially inept (around women or in general), then that's a problem. Even if the cause is just a lack of self-confidence (which is often the case). I'm referring to people who are poor or even clueless about many things in the following list: - how to start conversations with a stranger - how to ask engaging, interesting open-ended questions and keep a conversation going - how to gracefully end a conversation, especially when the other person non-verbally indicates that she ready for the conversation to end. - how to make people feel at-ease via icebreakers/humor/etc. - not coming on too strong or too weak or too personal, understanding and respecting boundaries - being open about yourself without being TOO open too soon...i.e. exercising reasonable discretion instead of spewing your whole life story. Maintaining a bit of mystery when it comes to interacting with someone you're interested in, to help build a sense of intrigue. - how to moderate our responses (and when) - listening - how to read and appropriately react to various vibes/moods/emotions (IOW, emotional intelligence) of a person or an environment - how to take the lead when needed - spontaneity - how to tease and poke fun in a manner that's timely and unoffensive - reading between the lines, detecting sarcasm, recognizing nuances and indirection, grasping what the other person is REALLY saying. - empathizing - critical thinking - willingness to disagree, constructively criticize, and stating your point of view without being a jerk - building relationships of trust and respect - how to speak articulately, and taking the situation and audience into account when speaking. Knowing when to leave the "PhD-esque" lingo at home, knowing how to communicate in a way that a 10-year old can understand, and so on. Adults with good social acumen are good at most of the above...AND it's pretty much ingrained within them, meaning they can do it without a second thought. This includes the "strong and silent" types. None of the above things are rocket science. It's called social SKILLS for a reason...you learn them the same way you learn any other skill...with repetition, practice, and frequent & varied exposure and experiences. Many people gradually learn this stuff during childhood, adolescence and early adulthood (college years and the first few years of your career) because they spent a significant amount of their lives interacting with their peers, and doing all sorts of fun social activities (especially out of the house) with their friends (and in high school, dates). For them, it was just a natural part of growing up. Humans are social creatures, therefore it is likely that you will NOT get very far in life without having basic social competence, even if you're an expert in some other way. That includes attracting others and dating. Most men who have little difficulty attracting women got their "tongue-tied" and "analysis paralysis" phases out of their system during their teens or early twenties. 2
katiegrl Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I fared better when the "chasing" wasn't too one-sided...i.e. both me and her reached out to each other in some way. Eh, there's a big difference between "a little awkwardness" and being socially inept. "A little awkwardness" every now and then is normal and happens to almost anyone. Yes, that is human nature. Most people understand that and thus aren't bothered by it...unless the "occasionally a bit awkward" guy is insecure about it. But if a person is over the age of 18-21 and is socially inept (around women or in general), then that's a problem. Even if the cause is just a lack of self-confidence (which is often the case). I'm referring to people who are poor or even clueless about many things in the following list: - how to start conversations with a stranger - how to ask engaging, interesting open-ended questions and keep a conversation going - how to gracefully end a conversation, especially when the other person non-verbally indicates that she ready for the conversation to end. - how to make people feel at-ease via icebreakers/humor/etc. - not coming on too strong or too weak or too personal, understanding and respecting boundaries - being open about yourself without being TOO open too soon...i.e. exercising reasonable discretion instead of spewing your whole life story. Maintaining a bit of mystery when it comes to interacting with someone you're interested in, to help build a sense of intrigue. - how to moderate our responses (and when) - listening - how to read and appropriately react to various vibes/moods/emotions (IOW, emotional intelligence) of a person or an environment - how to take the lead when needed - spontaneity - how to tease and poke fun in a manner that's timely and unoffensive - reading between the lines, detecting sarcasm, recognizing nuances and indirection, grasping what the other person is REALLY saying. - empathizing - critical thinking - willingness to disagree, constructively criticize, and stating your point of view without being a jerk - building relationships of trust and respect - how to speak articulately, and taking the situation and audience into account when speaking. Knowing when to leave the "PhD-esque" lingo at home, knowing how to communicate in a way that a 10-year old can understand, and so on. Adults with good social acumen are good at most of the above...AND it's pretty much ingrained within them, meaning they can do it without a second thought. This includes the "strong and silent" types. None of the above things are rocket science. It's called social SKILLS for a reason...you learn them the same way you learn any other skill...with repetition, practice, and frequent & varied exposure and experiences. Many people gradually learn this stuff during childhood, adolescence and early adulthood (college years and the first few years of your career) because they spent a significant amount of their lives interacting with their peers, and doing all sorts of fun social activities (especially out of the house) with their friends (and in high school, dates). For them, it was just a natural part of growing up. Humans are social creatures, therefore it is likely that you will NOT get very far in life without having basic social competence, even if you're an expert in some other way. That includes attracting others and dating. Most men who have little difficulty attracting women got their "tongue-tied" and "analysis paralysis" phases out of their system during their teens or early twenties. ^^Well said!
Lucko Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I dont think a lack of male role models is the problem. I think its about personality. Some men have amazing fathers and turn out far less "men", while others who grow up fatherless step up. But in all honesty I just think men are more consumed with a fear of rejection than a desire to go after a woman they like. Thats really sad. Rejections can be brutal when she perceives he is reaching up in class or when he has been shot down many times without a success.
Lucko Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 It's likely men are growing more tired of having to pursue anymore as to feel they don't want to come off as a stalker as a lot of women are so easily using with when it comes to men pursuing them these days. It's this kind of accusation that have men backing off, especially after a first attempt. That's a good point. That term stalker gets thrown around so much, and some don't want to risk being called that. I've gotten that for approaching a woman who wasn't interested and misreading her signs. Ouch
Lucko Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Unfortunately thats how the world always was and always will be. Theres a lot of pressure on men to be men, and to be honest I can see why. There are so few masculine, chasing men. As we can see the numbers of these guys is decreasing, so maybe its because now in modern day there is LESS pressure, theres less men are forced to "man up" aka chase, pursue, be sexually aggressive etc. But in my humble opinion, if a man stops pursuing because he doesnt wanna be labeled a "stalker", then hes no man at all. Since when does the opinion of random women matter? If you pursue many women, some of them eill welcome your advances. THATS the woman you want, not the ones who would deem you creepers. Less pressure on men? Kidding? Being called a stalker is a not pleasant to scary experience for men. Women want to be chased, but just by what women seem as the best men. Would you want a below average looking man trying for you? Didn't think so. What gives you the right to determine what is a man and what isn't a man? Being too aggressive can get a man's career and life ruined even if he meant no harm.
Woggle Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 I can deal with rejection because nobody appeals to everybody but it is not a good experience to be treated like a sexual predator for simply speaking to a woman. It doesn't feel good being treated like a criminal when you would never do anything to harm a woman. When you put people in a no win situation and they start to realize it it should not shock you when they just stop trying. Right or wrong many men feel like they are in a no win situation and many have just thrown their hands up and said screw this. Society has moved the goal posts and finish lines too many times and now many men have stopped running the race. I found a woman who accepts me for me but if I didn't I would be perfectly happy living my life and doing my thing without caring what society thinks. If you don't sign my checks and I have not let you into my circle your opinion means nothing to me.
Imajerk17 Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) Well I approach women all the time. During the day. I have gotten dates, sex, friends, and even a girlfriend from it (we have long since broken up). It does take a certain amount of courage though, especially if you live in a smaller town and you are likely to see the person around. Starting a conversation w a stranger who e.g., seems to be focused on her grocery shopping (as you as the guy were too a moment ago)--and flirting/expressing romantic interest is putting yourself out there indeed. BUT if I am attracted to the woman I still take the chance and go for it. I am older and more old-school though. Hopeful30 you said you were in your mid-20s? If you live in a smaller town then most guys in your age range are either already in a relationship or have resigned themselves to meeting women via social circle--because there are so few single women around, cold-approach is a slim chance. If you live in a bigger city then most guys your age probably use Tinder or OKC or something. Edited March 8, 2015 by Imajerk17 1
katiegrl Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Less pressure on men? Kidding? Being called a stalker is a not pleasant to scary experience for men. Women want to be chased, but just by what women seem as the best men. Would you want a below average looking man trying for you? Didn't think so. What gives you the right to determine what is a man and what isn't a man? Being too aggressive can get a man's career and life ruined even if he meant no harm. I agree and that's why I said earlier it's subjective. Remaining passive is appropriate and necessary in certain instances, while asserting yourself is appropriatel and necessary in others. I myself am both passive when necessary and assertive when necessary. One has to be perceptive enough to know which behavior is appropriate in which instance. With respect to man continuing to chase/pursue, there are instances when that isn't appropriate or appreciated and his decision to chase/pursue or not chase/pursue has zero to do with him being a "man." Wow .... what an antiquated way of thinking.
preraph Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Anyone who has been at a bar after midnight has seen guys who are standing around looking sneaky, covertly watching a woman and waiting for her to start teetering around drunk or waiting for her friend to go the bathroom, because they're too fearful to go up to a group of women and they are delusional because they think a woman's friends are the only reason they can't get the woman to leave with them, or they're just so socially awkward that they can't handle a simple group conversation. So right away, this is creepy, because he's trying to isolate the woman. A lot of men think this is okay. For a well adjusted social man who doesn't live on fear, the idea of approaching a bevy of women is just five times the fun. Because they're not thinking that they have to isolate them and work at convincing them to leave with them or whatever. On some level they know she wouldn't choose them sober So that too is predatory on some level. The guy who lurks around circling a woman for weeks, months, or years because he's social crippled is, in fact, a legitimate creep. Whether he's a dangerous one, who knows? But the odds go up that he is if he has to isolate and incapacitate a woman before he feels comfortable trying to talk to her. It's been said a hundred times on this forum alone: To get women, you need to practice your all-around social skills so you don't come off like a weirdo.
nomadic_butterfly Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Ive noticed more and more as I'm getting older that far fewer men chase women anymore. Many of them expect the woman to do the chasing, and even if she initiates (I've initiated before) it is either poorly reciprocated or not at all. And I'm not talking about stud muffins who have girls all over them, just average guys who in one way or another have shown interest. Whats up? Very true! I rarely even date anymore. A few times a year at best. It's too tiring. I just focus on my career and trying to get a business of the ground. LOL maybe he'll fall from the sky?? It's crazy how someone will say, "yea, we should get together, I'd like to take you to lunch!" Then expect you to plan everything afterward and not only just plan everything, but be on his tail, constantly reminding him and begging him to do it. I refuse. I've lived long enough although only in my 20s to know how the average man behaves when he REALLY wants something! He goes after it. And I will oblige if I am interested, and if not, I'll also make it know to not waste anyone's time. These thirsty women with no standards are making it hard for the rest of us!
nomadic_butterfly Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Texting marathons with no action taken, leads directly to the friend zone or a fade. Yes!! It's amazing how many men, specially those you meet online want to text for 5hrs straight. NO. If you have that much to say, pick up the phone or let's meet in person. Simple as that. But then chances are women must be doing the same thing too? Texting is for banter, and brief convos or when you're somewhere you cannot pick up the phone. Not when you're at home and being lazy. I cannot have lengthy text convos and still go on about my business with my hands free. I tell men straight up if I see them texting non-stop. "I'm not huge on texting and prefer to actually speak to you." Then they get the hint when I reply once an hour, if that. "You're a bad texter." "Yes, I know"
katiegrl Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Ideally, I think the best and most healthy relationships are when both partners are pursuing each other. At least that's been true in my relationships anyway... 1
nomadic_butterfly Posted March 8, 2015 Posted March 8, 2015 Ideally, I think the best and most healthy relationships are when both partners are pursuing each other. At least that's been true in my relationships anyway... Yea...one or the other initiates, the other is receptive to it, then it's a back and forth mutual effort. I wouldn't say I expect a guy to "chase" as that connotes some type of game but I expect him to put effort and show interest and I will reciprocate.
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